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This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

Won Moons MSE (Maxillary Skeletal Expander) Appliance is the best appliance for what we are trying to achieve  

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Fgsfds
New Member

@entelechy Thanks for all your very informative posts. Eagerly awaiting your website and interviews.

My ortho usually does MSE + Facemask but recommended DOME due to my age (mid 20s). The number one thing I'm sad about is not being able to get upper midfacial changes with DOME, such as more prominent cheekbones. My ortho actually confirmed that all changes would occur below the Lefort 1 cut. Isn't that a major appeal of the MSE? What do you think of this?

Also, would it be possible to just cortipuncture some other sutures (such as the zygomatic sutures) to increase chance of MSE success in older people?

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Posted : 11/01/2020 7:44 pm
greyham liked
fran_ziska
New Member

@entelechy

Hi!
I've been reading your explanations about MSE and DOME with interest since I'm considering MSE myself.

I'd like to contact Dr. Liu concerning practitioners in Europ - mainly the area of Austria, Germany and Switzerland. 
Do you know where to find his e-mail? I couldn't find it online. 

Or do you have a list of practitioners?

Thank you in advance.

Regards, 
Franziska

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Posted : 16/01/2020 6:05 am
entelechy
Trusted Member

@fran_ziska

I contacted him through Stanford University:  can google his email on the Stanford University site.  He told me that one can get any oral surgeon to do the surgical part of the procedure. For the MSE, I recomment Christoph Moschik in Munich (tell him Karin recommended you).     There are also MSE providers in Romania (M Banica) and Italy (Daniel Cantarella)

entelechy

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Posted : 16/01/2020 6:26 am
entelechy
Trusted Member
Posted by: @apollo

This quote from the article is interesting:

The more mature the patient, the faster expansion is required in order to build adequate inter-sutural tension for initial disarticulation. A diastema will typically appear after a successful split, and the activation rate can be slower onwards since the resistance has been reduced significantly.

Not true.   Slower expansion is more successful for adults.  This is a quote from Won Moon when I interviewed him, as well as the opinion of Dr. Richard Ting, leading MSE provider in California. 

I am a mature adult and decided to do MSE slow after consultation with 5 MSE providers (including Won Moon).  1 turn per day.

I split in three weeks.  Anything more than that would have been overkill and a violence to my body: and probably would have failed.   It fails because your buttressing bones (cheekbones etc) resist this violence to push them apart.  It made sense to me to gently nudge them apart.

Warning with MSE:  the suture between your eyes gets wider and one documented result can be change in vision.  I can vouch for that.  Today I feel I see "double" and have vertigo.  Waiting to see if it settles down.

Note: key face changes:   1) bulging cheekbones (ok these are fine)  2) longer face (not fine) 3) slightly more assymetrical (the split is always assymetrical and how extreme this is varies from person to person).

 

Anyone else who did MSE have these vision problems?  It happens also in kids according to a professor of orthodontics I spoke to with RME.

 

 

entelechy

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Posted : 10/02/2020 3:02 pm
entelechy
Trusted Member
Posted by: @fran_ziska

@entelechy

Hi!
I've been reading your explanations about MSE and DOME with interest since I'm considering MSE myself.

I'd like to contact Dr. Liu concerning practitioners in Europ - mainly the area of Austria, Germany and Switzerland. 
Do you know where to find his e-mail? I couldn't find it online. 

Or do you have a list of practitioners?

Thank you in advance.

Regards, 
Franziska

he told me any oral surgeon can do the 3 Lefort cuts that must be done for DOME, with MSE.

 

Get an MSE provider, and find an oral surgeon who will do them.  I recommend if you want to avoid unprdictable splits and midface changes.  I did MSE with Christoph Moschik in Munich: he is great.  Tell him Karin sent you.    I did not do DOME.  I do not know if that was  a mistake: my face changed and I have some vision issues now.  Dome prevents that.

 

entelechy

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Posted : 10/02/2020 3:07 pm
greyham
Active Member
Posted by: @entelechy

Not true.   Slower expansion is more successful for adults.  This is a quote from Won Moon when I interviewed him, as well as the opinion of Dr. Richard Ting, leading MSE provider in California. 

I am a mature adult and decided to do MSE slow after consultation with 5 MSE providers (including Won Moon).  1 turn per day.

I split in three weeks.  Anything more than that would have been overkill and a violence to my body: and probably would have failed.   It fails because your buttressing bones (cheekbones etc) resist this violence to push them apart.  It made sense to me to gently nudge them apart.

Thanks for your post. I'm wondering whether to go with DOME or MSE, so you're experience is really helpful.

In this video, Mike Mew says:

“If you go really quite slowly, there’s more of a chance of dental movement and if you go really very fast there’s more of a chance of skeletal movement.”

He also say he always aims to go at 1mm/week.

Do you have an MSE 1 (pin type) or MSE 2 (spanner type)? The degree of expansion per turn differs between them as described in the MSE brochure.

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Posted : 10/02/2020 4:41 pm
entelechy
Trusted Member
Posted by: @greyham
Posted by: @entelechy

Not true.   Slower expansion is more successful for adults.  This is a quote from Won Moon when I interviewed him, as well as the opinion of Dr. Richard Ting, leading MSE provider in California. 

I am a mature adult and decided to do MSE slow after consultation with 5 MSE providers (including Won Moon).  1 turn per day.

I split in three weeks.  Anything more than that would have been overkill and a violence to my body: and probably would have failed.   It fails because your buttressing bones (cheekbones etc) resist this violence to push them apart.  It made sense to me to gently nudge them apart.

Thanks for your post. I'm wondering whether to go with DOME or MSE, so you're experience is really helpful.

In this video, Mike Mew says:

“If you go really quite slowly, there’s more of a chance of dental movement and if you go really very fast there’s more of a chance of skeletal movement.”

He also say he always aims to go at 1mm/week. Am I right in calculating that at 1 turn per day you were expanding by 1 * 0.25 * 7 = 1.75mm/week?

I turned .16 per day, which translates into about 1 mm a week, since sometimes I did it twice a day.    This is SLOW expansion for MSE.  So you would need to see Mike Mew's 'slow" in context, i.e. for what device, and in comparison to what rate of fast?

I will mention alarming points about MSE effects that (unfortunately) you cannot find anywhere in the literature (or at least not clearly put out there).

---there are definite facial changes you may not like:   longer face (2-4 mm), longer nose perhaps, wider or bulging cheekbones definitely,  and...for me the most disconcerting--slight changes in eye shape and distance between eyes

--I myself just split and feel anxious about these changes, particularly the eye.   Today, I had vertigo and a sense of seeing "double" like wearing the wrong glasses.   I am checking with an eye doctor tomorrow

--the maxilla swings up supposedly, but also goes down as the palate goes down  (figure that one out)

Please note I am very sensitive and this  fiddingly with the skull is frightening to me.     But DOME sounds attractive to me because you avoid much of what I just described except the palate dropping down, and perhaps the lengthening of the face.   (the lengthening seems to happen from the tip of the nose to the chin area).

Another issue to watch out with with either DOME or MSE is if you have a very aysmmetrical face, it may be counter-indicated.

 

Note the good side effects:  totally got that width of expansion and comfort in mouth area in three weeks that I was desperate for.  IMW went to 35 from 32 in two weeks.   Could bring it to 38 if I wanted to keep going (to be determined)

breathing seems better too.

I still do not know what other option I could have had to achieve these effects.  The teeth-expanders don't cut it for me; it would have to be slow alvealor expansion and I could not wait two years to be able to have a wide enough palate for my tongue.

Plus Dr. Liu said it was ridiculous to move teeth when the main issue is the PALATE.  And nothing--no expander--would actually expand that palate.

it's a hard decision.

good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

entelechy

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Posted : 10/02/2020 4:59 pm
kota liked
Stolten
New Member

@entelechy


The vision geting double seems like a big negative. Are you doing the expansion at this very moment and getting these effects? Perhaps your eyes will get used to their new position and vision will returen to normal later... Do you know if double vision is a common effect and if its normally returns to normal later? 

Best regards

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Posted : 10/02/2020 5:34 pm
silverfishKapenta
Active Member

@ezcanor - I read about how you felt breathless and I know other people, people who know a lot more about this kind of stuff have given you great advice, but can I give mine? You might consider that you were overbreathing, or to rephrase it, hyperventilating. I mean, I have no idea if you were or hyperventilating or not, but perhaps you could look into it?  

I would never have thought it of myself but people in this site talked about Buteyko breathing enough that I bought Patrick McKeown's book and then gave myself altitude sickness trying one of the hold-your-breath exercises. Heh. This winter I had a cold, and then was working in a cold and dusty area where I sniffled a lot. (Yeah, I'm embarrassed  to admit that, but I didn't have time to blow my nose ever minute.) Anyway, I found myself taking little gasps of air in thru my mouth.

(So greatful to TGW and this forum for the community information to help people like us.)

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Posted : 29/02/2020 5:26 pm
Aleksio
New Member

@entelechy

How is possible for your face to get longer. I thought MSE widens your skeletal form not prolonged it???

 

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Posted : 27/04/2020 12:21 pm
rachitchopra
New Member

@darkindigo Would the MSE + Face Mask bring the Mandible upwards and Forwards as well? Considering you maintain proper bite? 

I guess ideally it should, if it does with Mewing. But, the rate at which MSE would expand, could be factor. 

What do you think? Would love a detailed answer. I'm pretty new to this space. Thanks.

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Posted : 20/08/2020 3:26 am
Mewem143
Active Member

@entelechy hey I am interested in discussing about expansion and treatment options with you, if you have the time. You seem like a very knowledgeable and committed person to the field of orthotropics. Is there any way we can get in contact?

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Posted : 21/08/2020 7:31 pm
klemenza123
New Member

@entelechy Hello I am interested in MSE and am also from Europe. I would love to get in contact with you and discuss MSE treatment, if possible please.

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Posted : 23/08/2020 10:26 am
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