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Why mandible position is essential in oral posture  

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EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I made a thread about long vs short faced bone structures.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/how-the-maxillary-height-affects-the-chin-are-you-long-or-short-faced/

If you look at each girl, their occlusal planes are actually identical. What differs is the vertical maxillary length (long vs short) and the mandible position.

The long faced girl has her mandible set unnecessarily far back compared to the short faced girl. I assume her resting tongue posture may drag her mandible down.

So if the long faced girl moved her mandible up and forward a few mms, she would maintain occlusion but her face would already be shortened. However, I think that is the first part of the puzzle. 

The new mandible position would also allow the tongue to cover more palatal space. This would provide more force to move the maxilla FORWARD.

This new mandible position would also cause the lower teeth to be inclined lingually which would increase chin projection. The lip seal is what would accomplish this. 

I firmly think tongue on palate isn't as effective alone if the mandible doesn't slide forward to strengthen lip seal and move lower incisors back (while the tongue moves upper incisors forward).

This new mandibular position would also allow the masseters to be recruited more efficiently as opposed to the temporalis. 

Let me know your thoughts

 

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Posted : 30/08/2019 12:10 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @darkindigo

So... the way it works is this...

If when growing...the maxilla is wider then the chin comes forward more.  If narrower, then when growing, the chin is recessed more.  In fact, if you narrow a maxilla, it will push the chin back.  So... here's my thoughts.  Chin is very important.  I agree.  When working with an adult... I think it makes sense to start working with the chin.  This is a very backward/uncommon opinion...because many are used to working with growth.  Unless the face is long, start with the chin.  When the face is long, you have to work with the maxilla first.  Advance and widen it.  Everything has to be unique to the patient.  The woman on the left appears over-widened.  She used up much of her arch perimeter to widen, so really...both maxillas are recessed.  The woman on the left has a chin that's a little nuts.  The concavity of her lip area is unattractive.  If the intermolar width were just right between these,...there you'd have an attractive woman.

Woman on the left isn't recessed by vertical growth standards. She has a low Mew line. Quite low actually if you see the distance from incisors to nose tip. Her palate is also quite wide. Where she is unattractive is her chipmunk cheeks. And probably also her high forehead. 

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Posted : 01/09/2019 8:41 am
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @darkindigo

So... the way it works is this...

If when growing...the maxilla is wider then the chin comes forward more.  If narrower, then when growing, the chin is recessed more.  In fact, if you narrow a maxilla, it will push the chin back.  So... here's my thoughts.  Chin is very important.  I agree.  When working with an adult... I think it makes sense to start working with the chin.  This is a very backward/uncommon opinion...because many are used to working with growth.  Unless the face is long, start with the chin.  When the face is long, you have to work with the maxilla first.  Advance and widen it.  Everything has to be unique to the patient.  The woman on the left appears over-widened.  She used up much of her arch perimeter to widen, so really...both maxillas are recessed.  The woman on the left has a chin that's a little nuts.  The concavity of her lip area is unattractive.  If the intermolar width were just right between these,...there you'd have an attractive woman.

Woman on the left isn't recessed by vertical growth standards. She has a low Mew line. Quite low actually if you see the distance from incisors to nose tip. Her palate is also quite wide. Where she is unattractive is her chipmunk cheeks. And probably also her high forehead. 

Looks like the woman on the right is considerably younger too. 

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Posted : 01/09/2019 12:46 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @darkindigo
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @darkindigo

So... the way it works is this...

If when growing...the maxilla is wider then the chin comes forward more.  If narrower, then when growing, the chin is recessed more.  In fact, if you narrow a maxilla, it will push the chin back.  So... here's my thoughts.  Chin is very important.  I agree.  When working with an adult... I think it makes sense to start working with the chin.  This is a very backward/uncommon opinion...because many are used to working with growth.  Unless the face is long, start with the chin.  When the face is long, you have to work with the maxilla first.  Advance and widen it.  Everything has to be unique to the patient.  The woman on the left appears over-widened.  She used up much of her arch perimeter to widen, so really...both maxillas are recessed.  The woman on the left has a chin that's a little nuts.  The concavity of her lip area is unattractive.  If the intermolar width were just right between these,...there you'd have an attractive woman.

Woman on the left isn't recessed by vertical growth standards. She has a low Mew line. Quite low actually if you see the distance from incisors to nose tip. Her palate is also quite wide. Where she is unattractive is her chipmunk cheeks. And probably also her high forehead. 

Her Mew indicator line is high.  Here nasolabial angle is high.  She would appear to have less pronounced cheeks and chin if she had a more forward maxilla.  She is clearly concaved in her side profile smile.  Most are, but she is especially.  If you look at her nasolabial angle, she is starkly recessed.  In fact...look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMeYJOGo0C0

Zoom in. The short faced girl has about 3/4 the distance from incisor to nose tip than the long faced one.

Soft tissue development will determine nasolabial angle. Last I saw my Mew line was 50mm and my nasolabial angle is still better than the short faced chick. But my Mew line isn't. Soft tissue development won't all of a sudden increase due to proper oral posture.

If nasolabial angle was a way to determine recession, people with bimax would all have excellent facial development. But more often than not they have high Mew lines and their lips are still overly puffy. Nasolabial angle has to do with teeth angulation anyway, which doesn't have a direct correlation with facial development.

And since when does only the girl on the left have a concave profile? They both do. 

@Pame both girls are teenagers.

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Posted : 02/09/2019 9:00 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@darkindigo

Girl on left has weak soft tissue development. Maxilla position can't help that unfortunately. But her Mew line still isn't high. She has a wide palate and just because her lips are thin doesn't *necessarily* mean she has a deficiency. Having a wide palate and a short Mew line may not make her look like a model, but I think people's expectations are very unrealistic. At least her jaw projects.

This on the other hand is a face that is too short:

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Posted : 02/09/2019 3:11 pm
auff
 auff
New Member

i have a question. For the women on the right how can you achieve the ideal tongue posture/

Because for me, its really difficult due to lower jaw angle.

Although i can touch the palate completely but still doesn't feel any pressure.I think it is because of the jaw angle

 

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Posted : 02/09/2019 4:13 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @auff

i have a question. For the women on the right how can you achieve the ideal tongue posture/

Because for me, its really difficult due to lower jaw angle.

Although i can touch the palate completely but still doesn't feel any pressure.I think it is because of the jaw angle

 

That's the whole point. Slide your jaw forward for more force against the palate.

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Posted : 02/09/2019 11:20 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @darkindigo

Okay.  Well, no figures here.  If you watch his video, you'll see what I mean.  Woman on the left has fine facial height but retruded maxilla..which affects tissue.  Models don't have wide teeth often...at least not face models.  They have big eyes and lips... long dental arch.  Typically they're more narrow.  Dentists focus on teeth, not face.

Yes but features like big eyes and lips are not determined by how short or projected your maxilla is. These things are genetic. I think one of the reasons people are so disappointed with maxillary advancement results is that usually the facial changes don't result in model like faces. All this shows is that the maxilla is NOT literally everything in how your face looks. You can have decent jaw projection but still not look like a model due to other features that have 0 to do with how well your jaw projects. 

The fact that many people commented that the girl on the right is more attractive shows that even with facial recession, soft tissue can help make someone more visually appealing. Also, the fact her forehead is more feminine (smaller with a low hairline) also helps. 

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Posted : 03/09/2019 7:33 am
johndoe1225
Active Member

I have to bring my lower teeth BACK to set my teeth together in my full bite (molars together, top front incisors resting just infront of the bottom ones), is this ok?  My face looks way better and more normal while my jaw is relaxed, meaning my top and bottom incisors are basically pointing right at each other but with freeway space.

I just don't want my face to get shorter, all I want really is better cheekbones.

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Posted : 09/09/2019 8:14 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @johndoe1225

I have to bring my lower teeth BACK to set my teeth together in my full bite (molars together, top front incisors resting just infront of the bottom ones), is this ok?  My face looks way better and more normal while my jaw is relaxed, meaning my top and bottom incisors are basically pointing right at each other but with freeway space.

I just don't want my face to get shorter, all I want really is better cheekbones.

You sound like you have an underbite

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Posted : 10/09/2019 8:32 am
johndoe1225
Active Member

@eddiemoney

I mean it's only visible (slightly) if I have my teeth completely together in my full bite, is that still a problem?  Should I continue mewing by manually bringing my lower jaw back like I said?  I have to bring my tongue back a tiny bit too so it's not resting against my front incisors.  It just feels weird and forced when I put my teeth (molars) completely together,

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Posted : 10/09/2019 10:25 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @johndoe1225

@eddiemoney

I mean it's only visible (slightly) if I have my teeth completely together in my full bite, is that still a problem?  Should I continue mewing by manually bringing my lower jaw back like I said?  I have to bring my tongue back a tiny bit too so it's not resting against my front incisors.  It just feels weird and forced when I put my teeth (molars) completely together,

If your underbite is how you can cover most of your palate space then the hope is to eventually make it an overbite. So don't force it. Molars don't need to make contact at rest.

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Posted : 10/09/2019 4:16 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member

@eddiemoney

Thanks

So I guess I'll just let my jaw relax (top and bottom incisors pointing right at each other but not touching), and only put my molars together when swallowing?

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Posted : 10/09/2019 9:02 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @johndoe1225

@eddiemoney

Thanks

So I guess I'll just let my jaw relax (top and bottom incisors pointing right at each other but not touching), and only put my molars together when swallowing?

I don't swallow with teeth touching personally

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Posted : 11/09/2019 12:20 am
johndoe1225
Active Member

@eddiemoney

Yeah that feels much more natural to me too

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Posted : 11/09/2019 10:15 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

Ive experimented with swallowing both ways without teeth touching and after going back and forth I have found swallowing with teeth in VERY light contacts is best. just by your molars touching even without the tongue on your palate your posture will improve try it for yourself.

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Posted : 16/09/2019 10:20 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@rockyp33

I find that I can swallow either way, teeth touching or slightly apart, but I feel mewing is easier and more comfortable with teeth apart.

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Posted : 16/09/2019 10:46 pm
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member

@sinned

Mewing isnt supposed to be comfortable.

According to Mew most of CFD Is caused by a more comfortable diet and orofacial habits changes that indulged that kind of diet.

Correcting a whole Life habit isn't easy.

I am struggling a lot. My body feels better indeed, however my mind not that much

 

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Posted : 17/09/2019 2:29 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@kyte

I understand that, however mewing feels more natural and easier with my teeth apart. I really don't think it's necessary to keep teeth in contact, in dentistry the space between your teeth is referred to as freeway space and is accounted for when making dentures or implants. When you look at animals such as dogs, their back teeth don't touch, in the ancient marsupial lion none of it's teeth are touching. How is it then that their jaws are able to grow perfectly together? It may be a bad comparison, but these animals, humans included, are mammals like us, breastfed like us, and are very similar in many regards, the mechanism for jaw growth must be the same if not very similar. In addition, it's only after trying both teeth apart and teeth together, researching on the natural resting position, that I've come to the conclusion the teeth should likely not be making contact during resting posture.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/servosystem-theory-explains-how-mandible-keeps-up-with-maxilla/

I'll refer to my own post, the servosystem theory states that occlusion is a feedback mechanism for the lower jaw, occlusion doesn't necessarily mean how your teeth touch but the relationship between your upper and lower teeth. In my readings occlusion has been referred to as the relationship between the teeth when their chewing, specifically in regards to the servosystem theory, I've never read occlusion be used in a sense when the teeth are touching at rest.

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Posted : 17/09/2019 3:33 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @sinned

@kyte

I understand that, however mewing feels more natural and easier with my teeth apart. I really don't think it's necessary to keep teeth in contact, in dentistry the space between your teeth is referred to as freeway space and is accounted for when making dentures or implants. When you look at animals such as dogs, their back teeth don't touch, in the ancient marsupial lion none of it's teeth are touching. How is it then that their jaws are able to grow perfectly together? It may be a bad comparison, but these animals, humans included, are mammals like us, breastfed like us, and are very similar in many regards, the mechanism for jaw growth must be the same if not very similar. In addition, it's only after trying both teeth apart and teeth together, researching on the natural resting position, that I've come to the conclusion the teeth should likely not be making contact during resting posture.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/servosystem-theory-explains-how-mandible-keeps-up-with-maxilla/

I'll refer to my own post, the servosystem theory states that occlusion is a feedback mechanism for the lower jaw, occlusion doesn't necessarily mean how your teeth touch but the relationship between your upper and lower teeth. In my readings occlusion has been referred to as the relationship between the teeth when their chewing, specifically in regards to the servosystem theory, I've never read occlusion be used in a sense when the teeth are touching at rest.

I scrolled through the slides last night (great find btw, thanks for sharing), the picture I got was that it's very much the way the teeth touch each other that generates the required information for the servosystem. For example, it was specifically argued that before the teeth erupt the development of the jaws must, by necessity,  be first determined by morphogenetic factors. The resting mandibular positioning was also be said to default to whichever position provides the least minimal deviation signal and the best "optimality of functioning" (during mastication the positioning would of course move all the time). Lastly, it was emphasized that the input is constant. Going by the basic definition of occlusion as per Wikipedia, it refers to contact between teeth.

I'm personally leaning on the side that the jaws need to be shut at moderate force in order to provide proper postural support for the spine and the tongue. The backmost molar contact seems to create a very specific kind of leverage for chin tucking/occipital drive. I find that the harder I drive my occiput up the more I want to clench my jaws.

What also supports the necessity of static molar contact in my opinion is comparing this girl suffering from bruxism (posted on here earlier) with an artist's impression of an ancient woman (from Mike Mew's slide):

They both have the same kind of 'bruxist' jawline, with the only difference being in the amount of maxillary forward growth. I wouldn't be surprised if firm molar contact turned out to be what develops the jawline, and tongue posture the midface & forehead (for example, there are people who have a great jawline with hollow midface - this could be the result of sufficient jaw posture with insufficient tongue posture). In my own case, almost four years of tongue posture with semi-relaxed mandible have resulted in visible changes in the two upper thirds, yet leaving the lowest third relatively unchanged. I'm only now starting to realize how moderate clenching combined with occipital drive effectively "locks in" the cervical posture. I think our teeth have developed to withstand this kind of static force. Comparing ancient dentitions to modern ones, it's clear that there is a lot of room for wear and tear, and that wearing out of the rough edges may even be desirable in order to even out the final shape of the occlusion:

 

 

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Posted : 17/09/2019 5:07 am
RamonT liked
qwerty135
Eminent Member

Found this comment from John Mew on the Facebook group, I think it shows the importance of having the lower jaw in a proper position.

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Posted : 17/09/2019 10:32 am
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member
Posted by: @qwerty135

Found this comment from John Mew on the Facebook group, I think it shows the importance of having the lower jaw in a proper position.

Hi,

Nice. Are you aware that Austin Shelton is AstroSky, right?

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Posted : 17/09/2019 11:18 am
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member

@sinned,

apparently, there's consistent agreement to the fact that teeth should slightly touch.

My experience:

-Since 5-6 years ago I have been thinking that I have overbite due to tongue thrust.

-I started mewing and regolar gum chewing.

-Started jutting my mandible a little forward for some reasons

-Stopped chewing when I noticed that apparently It was worsening my receding gums

- started to realize that I have an underbite  compesated by openbite and "tongue thrusted" upper front teeth.  And because my upper molars are back the lower molars not making contact

-started to improve upper lip seal

- went to two different ORTHOS FOR CONSULT:

Only one them said that receding gums, in my case, was mostly due to malocclusion rather than wrong brushing pattern.

They both agreed that I have to expand the palate and surgically move the maxilla upward.                                         At this point my long and high gonial angled mandible would swing up worsening the UNDERBITE. So It has to be surgically moved back and the gonial angle reduced ( obtaining a more projected chin)

 I am taking into account their PROFESSIONAL knowledge Since two-three months. So I am trying at my own risk to keep my mandible back and won't chew hard gum until my back molars don't make contact. It's look like is working.

This morph I made before going to the orthos Is making more sense now (even if it's probably a bit exaggerated)

I took an appointment to a maxillo surgeon on november, by the way. Let's see.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted : 17/09/2019 11:49 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @qwerty135

Found this comment from John Mew on the Facebook group, I think it shows the importance of having the lower jaw in a proper position.

It seems that John is more deliberate about the importance of molar contact than Mike, who in turn has advocated for keeping teeth slightly apart or in a very light touch at most. I'm starting to think that I have been shooting myself in the foot all these years by trying to make mewing work without proper teeth contact. In the beginning keeping the teeth together was resulting in other postural problems, but now I see that this was likely only a symptom of subpar occipital drive and posterior tongue activation.

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Posted : 17/09/2019 1:33 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I am not 100% convinced on whether molars touching at rest is ideal yet. In the X rays above you can see both girls touch their molars but with very different outcomes. Personally I have always touched molars at rest while my CFD remained and my Mew line was high.

Resting my jaw has allowed my tongue to cover more space and also for it to actively pull on the posterior third down. This is literally impossible to happen with my molars touching. But in my case, it's because I have 14 teeth in my lower arch instead of 16. So a 14 tooth arch is going to sit unnaturally far back if the arch above it is 16 teeth. This is why in my case relaxing my jaw and letting molars NOT touch has drastically helped my facial development. It has also made facial muscle use much more efficient. My face is no longer hypotonic since my resting mandible position has allowed my face muscles to be used properly. 

So for my particular case I will opt for a resting position with teeth apart. 

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Posted : 17/09/2019 3:17 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@progress

I decided to take a look back at the slides, you're right, there's definitely suggestions referring to occlusal feedback as teeth touching not just chewing. In my own experience, even though I said mewing is harder with teeth touching, I've noticed that my class 1 bite has resolved itself, presumably through teeth contact. When you contact your teeth for prolonged periods of time you naturally rest your jaw in a position where the teeth meet most comfortably. This makes me wonder if it's the case that the inefficiency of chewing is detected by the cns, how is it class 1 bites still exist where it isn't totally a cusp to fossa relationship? I know in dentistry they call the space between the teeth freeway space, they say this is how the teeth are supposed to meet at rest, slightly apart, reading the answers from dentists themselves on this issue, it seems that the reason they suggest this is they believe teeth touching can lead to bruxism/clenching therefore it cannot be a resting position. I think it's partly true, when you have your teeth in contact without the tongue as a counter force it's possible to start clenching, I notice this especially true at night where it seems your body doesn't respond to the high forces placed on the teeth so it continues clenching at ever higher forces. It's also possible tooth contact isn't comfortable for people because even with prolonged tooth contact you're teeth will meet in the most ideal occlusion given it's circumstances, lack of space for the teeth could make it uncomfortable and impossible for the teeth to meet ideally. Another interesting case I'd like to discuss is the fact that Jamo in his latest progress pic that he posted on this forum, says he has a class 2 at the moment, which seems apparent with his prominent upper lip. He also says he rests with his teeth apart, is this coincidence? I also find it interesting that in his progress pics before his bite appears normal, however, he says at one point he started focusing on the anterior region of his palate, possibly expanding his maxilla forward, though it appears his mandible didn't follow.

 

edit: I'm still not entirely convinced you need to keep teeth together, a constant input could be interpreted a couple of ways depending on the time frame, it could mean constant as in all the time, ie at rest, or constant as in a daily occurrence, ie when your eating or chewing. I don't think it's clear whether constant refers to either one of these, for the record, indiandentalacademy seems to advocate for a resting position with the teeth apart.

"Postural rest position  The postural rest position is a relatively unchanging neuromuscularly derived relationship of the lower jaw to the upper.  It is the position of the mandible when the elevator and depressor muscles of the mandible are in a state of minimal tonic contraction."

"When the mandible is in postural rest position, it is usually 2-3mm below and behind the centric occlusion (recorded in canine area) The space between the teeth, when the mandible is at rest, is referred to as the freeway space or interocclusal clearance."

https://www.slideshare.net/indiandentalacademy/functional-appliances-philosophy-and-various-studies-servo-system-theory

I'll follow up if I find anything interesting in regards to this topic.

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Posted : 17/09/2019 7:39 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Just to be clear I don't believe there is a standard mandible position solution for everyone. Some may need to touch, some may need to protract, some to retract (ha maybe), some to lift up. 

I think as long as your mandible position allows you to utilize your facial muscles properly, then you have good posture and muscle control. Muscles move bones so everyone's facial therapy would involve varying solutions. 

Some people have historically weak lips. I would be one of those. Moving my mandible forward a few mms allows me to engage so many more facial muscles and my lips are no longer hypotonic. They look much more defined on my face with a wider mouth and sharper lips. 

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Posted : 18/09/2019 12:45 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Just to be clear I don't believe there is a standard mandible position solution for everyone. Some may need to touch, some may need to protract, some to retract (ha maybe), some to lift up. 

I think as long as your mandible position allows you to utilize your facial muscles properly, then you have good posture and muscle control. Muscles move bones so everyone's facial therapy would involve varying solutions. 

Some people have historically weak lips. I would be one of those. Moving my mandible forward a few mms allows me to engage so many more facial muscles and my lips are no longer hypotonic. They look much more defined on my face with a wider mouth and sharper lips. 

This makes sense.

My biggest problem that's driving me crazy is wondering if I'm doing damage (not damage but making my face worse) by pulling my lower jaw back to line up my top and bottom molars.  I never really had my top and bottom teeth together before discovering mewing, and I'm not sure whether or not my braces pulled my top teeth backwards, because if that DID happen, then it would seem that artificially pulling my lower jaw back to have my molars touching is a bad, unnatural (for me) position?  Because before mewing my tongue rested on the roof of my mouth more or less, but it was lightly pressed up against my upper incisors, and my upper and lower incisors were lines up but not touching.  I can feel a slight engagement of my masseters or something in that area when I pull my lower jaw back to line up my molars and I really doubt that's supposed to happen.  I'm definitely not clenching though.

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Posted : 18/09/2019 8:22 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

@sinned I understand your doubt. Personally, I am wary of the mainstream orthodontistry's advice against keeping the teeth together, since orthodontists tend to only witness the adverse effects of extreme bruxism, which would logically distort their judgement in regards to the utility of keeping the teeth together in the first place. A more fringe possibility could be intentional obfuscation of the fact that gentle clenching straightens the teeth in order to protect the future of their field of work.

I think the muscles of mastication are so related to the rest of the postural musculature that talking about "resting posture" would only make sense in a situation where the rest of the body was resting too. Walking - or even standing casually -  does still engage the postural musculature throughout the body to the extent that would, in my opinion, justify gentle clenching as a natural postural articulation in order to further stabilize the cervical spine (having the urge to clench while laying on the sofa would of course seem more worrying).

Lastly, considering how 20-30% of the population engages in awake bruxism (as I mentioned here), and how the prevalence of teeth crowding is estimated to be 70-80% (Little, 1975; Proffit et al., 1998), the numbers match up just too nicely not to ask whether there is a direct correlation between the two.

 

 

 

Another interesting case I'd like to discuss is the fact that Jamo in his latest progress pic that he posted on this forum, says he has a class 2 at the moment, which seems apparent with his prominent upper lip. He also says he rests with his teeth apart, is this coincidence? I also find it interesting that in his progress pics before his bite appears normal, however, he says at one point he started focusing on the anterior region of his palate, possibly expanding his maxilla forward, though it appears his mandible didn't follow.

That's true. His jaws appeared to have the best relationship when he first shared his progress, which would be the middle one here:

As I recall, between the first two pics he had been chewing a lot and mewing hard with the posterior tongue. By the time he shared the third pic he mentioned that he 1) doesn't keep his teeth together, 2) focuses on the anterior palate. Now, was incorporating either one of these a mistake? Was it a bad call to keep his teeth apart, or would focusing on the anterior palate have led to class 2 regardless of his occlusional habits?

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Posted : 19/09/2019 7:10 am
drunkwithcoffee
Estimable Member

@progress anecdotal bit to add to what you said about molars touching and head posture - when my teeth are in contact/molars are touching, my head posture becomes automatic.  Before, I was unconsciously jutting my lower jaw forward because it felt easier to hit the soft palate with my posterior tongue (I now know that that's not true - it's actually easier to hit the soft palate with teeth in contact), and it constantly felt like I was straining my neck muscles to make head posture work.  

I was shocked to find that touching molars meant I no longer had to even think about head posture - everything seems to lock into place automatically.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 11:09 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@progress

People who clench probably have better muscle tone and don't mouth breathe, I suspect this the reason why they have low incidence of malocclusion. In regards to Jamo, we will not be sure if he has a class 2 bite unless he shows a pic of his bite, if I recall he said he had a growing diastema and space between his front teeth, it's possible his front teeth started coming forward like in AGGA. Technically it wouldn't be an overbite however it could explain his protruding upper lip. It's possible that overtime as his diastema went away so to would his protruding upper lip. This is just conjecture of course, basically I'm suggesting it's possible he's expanded his palate forward like in agga, he says he focused on his anterior palate, could possibly mean he started pushing forward on the alveolar ridge/bone/vaulted area above the front teeth, similar to what agga does. 

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Posted : 20/09/2019 11:24 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member
Posted by: @sinned

he says he focused on his anterior palate, could possibly mean he started pushing forward on the alveolar ridge/bone/vaulted area above the front teeth, similar to what agga does. 

So if, for example, I'm not really making contact against my soft palate as much as I think I am, as long as I push forward against the steep ridge while swallowing, it's more or less ok, until I can get the back of my tongue up properly?  I'm worried that pushing only one part of my palate will lead to very bad results.  I don't want to cause my palate to get higher and possibly narrower or anything, is that even possible?  By mewing wrong I mean.  I'm trying to apply sideways force but I still need a little bit more teeth space.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 4:22 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@johndoe1225

You're probably fine. What I do is I hold the tongue posture I get from a proper swallow, I got in the habit of initiating a swallow by pushing my tongue forward on the steep vaulted part of the palate, so that's how I hold my tongue posture. However I swallow is how I hold my tongue posture.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 5:21 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member
Posted by: @sinned

@johndoe1225

You're probably fine. What I do is I hold the tongue posture I get from a proper swallow, I got in the habit of initiating a swallow by pushing my tongue forward on the steep vaulted part of the palate, so that's how I hold my tongue posture. However I swallow is how I hold my tongue posture.

Thanks!  That's what I TRY to do too, of course I can't breath at the height of swallowing so I just try as best as I can lol

 

PS; what happens if braces ended up bringing my top teeth backwards, mewing wise (I'm not sure this happened, just in case)?  I feel like if I relax my tongue it naturally rests against my top incisors, I assume I'm just not used to perfect tongue posture, maybe I had ok posture before but slightly too far forward so good posture feels unnatural.  I only have to pull it back a little bit to rest on the incisive papilla.  I almost feel like this curls the tongue up, like when a worm moves, and maybe I can't get my tongue up in the very back?  I'm not sure.  I also fold my tongue just a little bit to fit between my teeth.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 7:55 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@johndoe1225

At the "height" of a swallow the suprahyoid and thyrohyoid brings the larynx/hyoid up and forward, bringing the epiglottis to a more horizontal position, closing the trachea/air way. For this reason, you cannot breathe during a swallow, and that's completely normal because your body doesn't want stuff to get in the airway. Just focus on holding the tongue position and relax. This notion that when you mew you shouldn't be able to breathe is honestly stupid imo, I'm quite recessed but I can still breathe just fine. I think if people can't breathe while mewing they're mewing wrong, and I think this misunderstanding probably comes from Mike Mew and the cheesy smile swallow. I saw in one of his videos him saying that you shouldn't be able to breathe, this is utter nonsense, hold the tongue position, don't hold the hyoid position during a swallow which closes the airway.

Just do what works for you, I think we all have a different experience. As a general recommendation avoid thrusting the front teeth. Get used to doing a proper swallow, you swallow hundreds of times a day so that's hundreds of chances to reinforce a proper technique and making it become a habit.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 8:42 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member

@sinned

Thanks, that's what I was hoping, that my airway is supposed to get blocked.  I have tried to hold a relaxed mew position and slip my finger in to the back of my mouth as best I can without breaking the position too much and I think I'm probably doing it mostly right, or at least not that wrong lol

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Posted : 21/09/2019 8:46 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@johndoe1225

For the record, if I didn't make myself clear, during a swallow the suprahyoid and thyrohyoid pull the hyoid/larynx up and forward, which closes the airway by moving the epiglottis in a more horizontal position

This is what I mean, this reflex is independent of the tongue, therefore, it would be wrong to say mewing should block the airway, if you mew correctly your airway should be fine. It's possible to hold this hyoid position that occurs in a swallow, you can try it yourself, and you'll notice you won't be able to breathe. This of course isn't "mewing" tongue posture is as the name entails a posture, so if you're holding the hyoid in a swallow it cannot possibly be a posture. I think a lot of people don't realize this and make the mistake of holding the hyoid position during a swallow, allow the swallow to finish but make sure at the end of it you're holding the TONGUE POSITION, not the hyoid.

tl; dr When mewing your airway shouldn't be blocked, during a swallow it is blocked temporarily so food or liquid doesn't get in the trachea.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 9:19 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member
Posted by: @sinned

@progress

People who clench probably have better muscle tone and don't mouth breathe, I suspect this the reason why they have low incidence of malocclusion. In regards to Jamo, we will not be sure if he has a class 2 bite unless he shows a pic of his bite, if I recall he said he had a growing diastema and space between his front teeth, it's possible his front teeth started coming forward like in AGGA. Technically it wouldn't be an overbite however it could explain his protruding upper lip. It's possible that overtime as his diastema went away so to would his protruding upper lip. This is just conjecture of course, basically I'm suggesting it's possible he's expanded his palate forward like in agga, he says he focused on his anterior palate, could possibly mean he started pushing forward on the alveolar ridge/bone/vaulted area above the front teeth, similar to what agga does. 

i think sinned is correct

This makes sense to me because without teeth contact, his mandible gets left behind, causing lower incisors to stick forward, causing the pouty lower lip. 

And I think his upper incisors became retroclined to meet those inclined lower incisors. 

@johndoe1225  My biggest concern with bringing the mandible back to meet the maxilla, is impacted wisdom teeth. I don't want to break a molar as it gets pushed back onto a diagonal wisdom tooth. That and/or pushing the ramus back could potentially be bad?

 

I agree with @progress in this thread. I have avioded teeth contact for 2 months, I think I have more gum showing. Whats interesting is that I have been eating an apple or two everyday, pushing upwards with reletively large force as I tare off a chunk. It seems these short bursts of upwards force did not actually keep my front maxilla up as I thought it would. I have also been trying to aviod teeth contact when chewing, which gives a nice burning sensation throughout the face, since it requires alot more jaw movement in differing directions, rather than just up and down. I'm not 100% sure my front maxilla has dropped, but I just ramdonly noticed it, which makes me think it has happened. If you look for something and find it, it should be questioned more than the finding of something you wern't looking for.

@eddiemoney I now think occlusion can change with teeth contact, as everything expands the incisors will have no choice but to incline and retrocline properly. I believe the same to be true for the overall rotation, as you expand, you will rotate as desired imo.

Complete guess here, but Progress' lack of deep bite improvement may be because of a lack of teeth contact and/or lip seal, not the other way around. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted : 28/12/2019 4:49 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

So it seems there is a growing consensus around keeping teeth in contact at rest based on my recent readings of many threads. 

I will still maintain that I don't hold this view and that constant reinforcement of improper position (for those with malocclusion) will only keep the face and the bite exactly the same.

My ortho gave me a very pronounced deep bite after extracting two mandibular premolars. This meant a 14 tooth arch sat deep inside a 16 tooth arch, creating an awkward relationship where the upper maxillary incisors couldn't even retrocline properly to close the bite. As a result, I had a mild overjet with still a deep bite, making my lower third weaker AND my chin less pronounced. At least with Class 2 Div 2 cases the chin is pronounced albeit in a retrognathic mandible. My chin isn't even weak, it just sat too far back due to a very narrow lower arch.

This made it hard for me to close my lips with my teeth touching at rest. The skin was too loose and the mentolabial fold all but went away.

Holding my mandible down and away from my face allows for full palatal contact from the tongue. It also has made my bite much more open and way less deep. The overjet has gotten LESS pronounced due to the fact my mandible rotated clockwise as my palate widened. So now my teeth sit a lot lower. My theory is that losing teeth contact caused the maxilla to expand in all directions due to sufficient space being covered by my tongue. The lower arch then can protract back to a more natural mandibular position in the condyle because of this. And while my teeth "fit" after ortho, I don't consider a 14 tooth arch inside a 16 tooth arch to be a position that should be held, since the lower teeth go too deep into my upper teeth as it is. 

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Posted : 28/12/2019 4:38 pm
gewgerg
Active Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @johndoe1225

I have to bring my lower teeth BACK to set my teeth together in my full bite (molars together, top front incisors resting just infront of the bottom ones), is this ok?  My face looks way better and more normal while my jaw is relaxed, meaning my top and bottom incisors are basically pointing right at each other but with freeway space.

I just don't want my face to get shorter, all I want really is better cheekbones.

You sound like you have an underbite

I'm guessing he has an overbite / posterior open bite where your rest is in a class 1 position and your bite is in class 2 position. This is normally accompanied by a high gonial angle and crowding at the front 4 teeth on both jaws sometimes along with retroclined incisors 

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Posted : 24/02/2020 9:46 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @gewgerg
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @johndoe1225

I have to bring my lower teeth BACK to set my teeth together in my full bite (molars together, top front incisors resting just infront of the bottom ones), is this ok?  My face looks way better and more normal while my jaw is relaxed, meaning my top and bottom incisors are basically pointing right at each other but with freeway space.

I just don't want my face to get shorter, all I want really is better cheekbones.

You sound like you have an underbite

I'm guessing he has an overbite / posterior open bite where your rest is in a class 1 position and your bite is in class 2 position. This is normally accompanied by a high gonial angle and crowding at the front 4 teeth on both jaws sometimes along with retroclined incisors 

Guess we would have to know the relationship between his upper molars/canines to lower. 

Michael Phelps has this type of bite you speak of but his alignment is Class 3. 

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Posted : 24/02/2020 5:59 pm