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[Solved] Why chin tuck?  

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Couda
Eminent Member

Does it push the maxilla up and forwards? 

Quote
Posted : 05/05/2018 1:28 pm
Yegor_L
Eminent Member

I'm not an authority, but here's my take away from personal experience and from a couple of Mike Mew's videos: The chin tuck is essentially a way to facilitate easier and greater exposure of the tongue to the maxilla. Mike Mew has stated that with people who have long faces and receded maxillas, to the untrained eye, their faces seem relatively normal. However this is simply because they unconsciously compensate for their facial form by having their entire default head posture be extended forward.

The McKenzie Chin tuck, as called by Mike Mew is as much a way to encourage correct tongue posture, as it is a way to move away from the typical head posture seen in receded individuals.

 

Just practice yourself, even without applying any sort of force with the tongue, just the posture of the head in relation to the neck greatly changes the tongue's resting position in the mouth.

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Posted : 05/05/2018 1:40 pm
Couda
Eminent Member

Do you do it in public?

I dont feel any difference, maybe the root of my tongue is too far down.

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Posted : 05/05/2018 1:57 pm
Yegor_L
Eminent Member

I personally don't go out of my way to tuck my chin in a far as possible. I find it sufficient to just have my head positioned in a normal 90 degrees to my neck, which basically happens naturally with good back posture. 

You'd be surprised how much of overall proper body posture is related to the posture of head, tongue, etc. They all effect each other.

Mike Mew talks about this general topic in his "abs walk" video.

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Posted : 05/05/2018 2:03 pm
narrowjawMF
Active Member

I'm wodnering if it would be any good to try and sleep in this position although Mew have said that facing upwards will push the maxilla back and cut of the airway, so I'm wondering if it might overpower the gravitational forces enough to make it worth doing the mckenzie-whatever tuck?

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Posted : 05/05/2018 2:17 pm
Yegor_L
Eminent Member

Yeah most likely having an extra pillow would give that sufficient tuck force. Not to mention that with an additional pillow, your face isn't angled as "straight up" as before, so there is less direct gravitational resistance.

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Posted : 05/05/2018 2:20 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Why chin tuck?

Why shoulders back?

Why stand straight?

All these things are part of standing correctly. Chin tuck is there because you aren't supposed to have forward head posture. The more forward your head is, the less pressure the mandible puts on the maxilla to move forward, the more gravity pulls your maxilla down, and the more pressure your neck feels. 

Keeping your chin high also gives your cervical spine a straight and locked position, which adds pounds of force to your lumbar spine and makes you shorter over time.

So tuck your chin and stick the back of your head (occiput) to the back. Sort of like bowing your head and then raising it. Thus creates counteracting forces that keep your spine in line .

Either that or maintain forward head posture and make yourself shorter and uglier 

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Posted : 05/05/2018 3:00 pm
Tester
Active Member

Should you sleep without a pillow to keep your neck straight?

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Posted : 05/05/2018 6:54 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Tester

Should you sleep without a pillow to keep your neck straight?

It depends on the severity of your head posture and condition of your muscles specifically the sternocleidomastoid, scalene, and suboccipitals. If those are tight you won't gain anything from sleeping without a pillow. In fact it can be counter productive. You have to progressively stretch those muscles  to normal tonality before you can sleep with no pillow.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 05/05/2018 11:37 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

Never really understood the idea behind the chin tuck or looked in to it. I've never done it and don't know if it's even worth considering. Mewing I do pretty instinctively now, but I don't know if this will make any significant differences in facial improvements bone-ificially.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 08/05/2018 12:38 am
krollic
Reputable Member

it corrects foreward head posture which helps your head be further back on your neck which is paramount for rebalancing your back/ab muscles. it also makes mewing more effective and many other benefits.

https://youtu.be/oX3AlUYRZIQ

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Posted : 08/05/2018 2:24 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

Never really understood the idea behind the chin tuck or looked in to it. I've never done it and don't know if it's even worth considering. Mewing I do pretty instinctively now, but I don't know if this will make any significant differences in facial improvements bone-ificially.

Fixing forward head posture is tantamount to having an ideal maxilla position. When you tuck your chin, your mandible places much more force against your maxilla . When you maintain forward head posture, gravity works against you because it pulls the mandible down, weakens your chin, and takes pressure away from the maxilla.

Don't think of it as a chin tuck. Think of it as proper posture. Those people with the ideal maxilla you post pics of? Most likely they have adopted proper posture most of their life. Truth be told I don't know anyone with bad posture that is good looking. It really deteriorates your bones. 

Forward head posture leads to:

Weaker chin

Less eye support

Overly sloped forehead (even if your brow is weak)

High gonial angle

Long face

Prognathism 

 

Realistically not tucking your chin will make your mewing progress very slow . I am of the thought that when it comes to counterclockwise maxillary rotation, posture matters more than anything else . Because if you maintain forward head posture, you are working against your own efforts. If you want "forward" growth, you can't expect it to happen with posture that causes downward growth .

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Posted : 08/05/2018 11:49 am
Autokrator, Angelina, krollic and 1 people liked
Keengo
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Keengo

Never really understood the idea behind the chin tuck or looked in to it. I've never done it and don't know if it's even worth considering. Mewing I do pretty instinctively now, but I don't know if this will make any significant differences in facial improvements bone-ificially.

Fixing forward head posture is tantamount to having an ideal maxilla position. When you tuck your chin, your mandible places much more force against your maxilla . When you maintain forward head posture, gravity works against you because it pulls the mandible down, weakens your chin, and takes pressure away from the maxilla.

Don't think of it as a chin tuck. Think of it as proper posture. Those people with the ideal maxilla you post pics of? Most likely they have adopted proper posture most of their life. Truth be told I don't know anyone with bad posture that is good looking. It really deteriorates your bones. 

Forward head posture leads to:

Weaker chin

Less eye support

Overly sloped forehead (even if your brow is weak)

High gonial angle

Long face

Prognathism 

 

Realistically not tucking your chin will make your mewing progress very slow . I am of the thought that when it comes to counterclockwise maxillary rotation, posture matters more than anything else . Because if you maintain forward head posture, you are working against your own efforts. If you want "forward" growth, you can't expect it to happen with posture that causes downward growth .

Yeah, almost all of those features hit close to home -- especially a few years ago when I was in a worse state.

Not sure about forward growth anymore since how you look depends on the maxilla's shape more. I'm seeing if palatal expansion can slowly balance the maxilla shape out and thus create the "ideal forward growth" I'm looking for.

I'll have to watch Mew's chin tuck video in full sometime and try to see if I can get the hang of doing it.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2018 2:48 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Keengo

Never really understood the idea behind the chin tuck or looked in to it. I've never done it and don't know if it's even worth considering. Mewing I do pretty instinctively now, but I don't know if this will make any significant differences in facial improvements bone-ificially.

Fixing forward head posture is tantamount to having an ideal maxilla position. When you tuck your chin, your mandible places much more force against your maxilla . When you maintain forward head posture, gravity works against you because it pulls the mandible down, weakens your chin, and takes pressure away from the maxilla.

Don't think of it as a chin tuck. Think of it as proper posture. Those people with the ideal maxilla you post pics of? Most likely they have adopted proper posture most of their life. Truth be told I don't know anyone with bad posture that is good looking. It really deteriorates your bones. 

Forward head posture leads to:

Weaker chin

Less eye support

Overly sloped forehead (even if your brow is weak)

High gonial angle

Long face

Prognathism 

 

Realistically not tucking your chin will make your mewing progress very slow . I am of the thought that when it comes to counterclockwise maxillary rotation, posture matters more than anything else . Because if you maintain forward head posture, you are working against your own efforts. If you want "forward" growth, you can't expect it to happen with posture that causes downward growth .

Yeah, almost all of those features hit close to home -- especially a few years ago when I was in a worse state.

Not sure about forward growth anymore since how you look depends on the maxilla's shape more. I'm seeing if palatal expansion can slowly balance the maxilla shape out and thus create the "ideal forward growth" I'm looking for.

I'll have to watch Mew's chin tuck video in full sometime and try to see if I can get the hang of doing it.

What do you mean by maxilla shape? How else would a maxilla be shaped? Pics of skulls with the "ideal" shape?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2018 3:39 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Keengo
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Keengo

Never really understood the idea behind the chin tuck or looked in to it. I've never done it and don't know if it's even worth considering. Mewing I do pretty instinctively now, but I don't know if this will make any significant differences in facial improvements bone-ificially.

Fixing forward head posture is tantamount to having an ideal maxilla position. When you tuck your chin, your mandible places much more force against your maxilla . When you maintain forward head posture, gravity works against you because it pulls the mandible down, weakens your chin, and takes pressure away from the maxilla.

Don't think of it as a chin tuck. Think of it as proper posture. Those people with the ideal maxilla you post pics of? Most likely they have adopted proper posture most of their life. Truth be told I don't know anyone with bad posture that is good looking. It really deteriorates your bones. 

Forward head posture leads to:

Weaker chin

Less eye support

Overly sloped forehead (even if your brow is weak)

High gonial angle

Long face

Prognathism 

 

Realistically not tucking your chin will make your mewing progress very slow . I am of the thought that when it comes to counterclockwise maxillary rotation, posture matters more than anything else . Because if you maintain forward head posture, you are working against your own efforts. If you want "forward" growth, you can't expect it to happen with posture that causes downward growth .

Yeah, almost all of those features hit close to home -- especially a few years ago when I was in a worse state.

Not sure about forward growth anymore since how you look depends on the maxilla's shape more. I'm seeing if palatal expansion can slowly balance the maxilla shape out and thus create the "ideal forward growth" I'm looking for.

I'll have to watch Mew's chin tuck video in full sometime and try to see if I can get the hang of doing it.

What do you mean by maxilla shape? How else would a maxilla be shaped? Pics of skulls with the "ideal" shape?

I mean look at people with really/comically long midface areas. The problem is clearly bone. Maxilla shape would be how long/wide it is in proportion to the face and everything else. The face needs to balanced to look its best. A slightly long midface is no big deal, but any long midface that's not compact or balanced by some fair degree of facial width/zygos/jaw will appear longer.

 

The idea behind a too long midface even with everything else in a normal range would be that the maxilla is too long/vertical. I can't imagine anyone with a noticeably long midface that didn't have some kind of excess growth or length shape-wise that differs among the majority of maxillary development.

 

Also, the more long the maxilla is the more narrow the cheekbones/face tend to be because one influences the other which connects directly to it. It's like a domino-effect of poor growth. A skinny/long maxilla combined with the narrow dental arch and long midface is almost always going together with a very narrow face/weak zygos. They are like the poster picture for the recessed mouthbreather "loser" stereotype you can probably imagine.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2018 4:02 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@Keengo

Other than deformities, a maxilla that is as you described is due to bad posture which causes gravity to pull the maxilla down. But that is the point of fixing posture. The midface in those cases looks long because the mandible is angled down and the face comes down with it.

I have seen my maxilla become "shorter" but really what has happened is that it is rotating. So the mandible juts forward, increasing the lower third height and thus shortening the midface.

It is a question of whether the maxilla is downward grown or not. The shape can remain the same but if the angle changes (like in ccw rotation), then the soft tissue makes the midface come "in" more. My midface has gotten shorter and I doubt my maxilla has actually shortened but rather the forward movement meant the face is being compressed more over time due to rotation.

See the thread on expansion equals recession. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2018 4:32 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

@Keengo

Other than deformities, a maxilla that is as you described is due to bad posture which causes gravity to pull the maxilla down. But that is the point of fixing posture. The midface in those cases looks long because the mandible is angled down and the face comes down with it.

I have seen my maxilla become "shorter" but really what has happened is that it is rotating. So the mandible juts forward, increasing the lower third height and thus shortening the midface.

It is a question of whether the maxilla is downward grown or not. The shape can remain the same but if the angle changes (like in ccw rotation), then the soft tissue makes the midface come "in" more. My midface has gotten shorter and I doubt my maxilla has actually shortened but rather the forward movement meant the face is being compressed more over time due to rotation.

See the thread on expansion equals recession. 

In some cases it's really hard to help without the bone issue being resolved is my point. You probably had a slightly long midface, but that's not a problem as I said. The issue is when you have this:

That guy's midface is like 4x the length of his lower third and almost twice the length of his forehead. I doubt any rotation will help him. He may need surgical intervention to fix it enough to look his best. He is just one example of people with very vertically long maxillas. Some people have long maxillas but have balanced facial width too, so it's hardly a deal/noticeable factor in appearance. My point was that very vertical maxilla/long midface area is something that some people don't seem to be able to fix with anything besides an osteotomy, whether it's mewing, chin tuck, etc.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2018 5:04 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo
Posted by: EddieMoney

@Keengo

Other than deformities, a maxilla that is as you described is due to bad posture which causes gravity to pull the maxilla down. But that is the point of fixing posture. The midface in those cases looks long because the mandible is angled down and the face comes down with it.

I have seen my maxilla become "shorter" but really what has happened is that it is rotating. So the mandible juts forward, increasing the lower third height and thus shortening the midface.

It is a question of whether the maxilla is downward grown or not. The shape can remain the same but if the angle changes (like in ccw rotation), then the soft tissue makes the midface come "in" more. My midface has gotten shorter and I doubt my maxilla has actually shortened but rather the forward movement meant the face is being compressed more over time due to rotation.

See the thread on expansion equals recession. 

In some cases it's really hard to help without the bone issue being resolved is my point. You probably had a slightly long midface, but that's not a problem as I said. The issue is when you have this:

That guy's midface is like 4x the length of his lower third and almost twice the length of his forehead. I doubt any rotation will help him. He may need surgical intervention to fix it enough to look his best. He is just one example of people with very vertically long maxillas. Some people have long maxillas but have balanced facial width too, so it's hardly a deal/noticeable factor in appearance. My point was that very vertical maxilla/long midface area is something that some people don't seem to be able to fix with anything besides an osteotomy, whether it's mewing, chin tuck, etc.

This person isn't a great example to use because he is not a full grown adult. My face used to look very similar to him. At times in development some features form at unfavorable rates especially if posture is bad. But that doesn't mean it can't be fixed. It just takes a lot of effort and years honestly. My face was quite similar to that to the point i could never be clean shaven for fear of looking like a camel. 

I didn't need surgery. But I did fix many postural problems along the way even before I started mewing. It is a loooooong time investment. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2018 8:48 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

You think having a strong neck helps a good foundation for the skull bones/muscle balance?

I've been lagging on neck a lot, but I wonder if that alone can do better than chin tucking.

Also back and leg strength along with posture too (I used to deadlift and squat more before). Was thinking of trying some back brace or something that can decompress the spine and maybe make me closer to 6' tall, which is a real good thing in my view. LOL.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 08/05/2018 9:19 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

You think having a strong neck helps a good foundation for the skull bones/muscle balance?

I've been lagging on neck a lot, but I wonder if that alone can do better than chin tucking.

Also back and leg strength along with posture too (I used to deadlift and squat more before). Was thinking of trying some back brace or something that can decompress the spine and maybe make me closer to 6' tall, which is a real good thing in my view. LOL.

Chin tucks work the neck by forcing it to carry the skull 24/7 as opposed to using the traps which is what forward head posture leads to. 

I personally don't do Squats or Deadlifts anymore. They seem to really have a high risk of forcing unnatural movement patterns just due to the fact they aren't super natural movements (a bodyweight squat is natural, a loaded barbell on your spine is not). I will say that I like my single arm suitcase Deadlifts better as I get more of a neutral spine going and I can utilize asymmetrical loading to make sure there isn't any dominant side compensation (like one leg pushing harder on the floor to complete the movement)  

I am not saying deads or squats are bad or that they even make posture bad. I had still gained height through the years I did them post high school and I worked my way up to doing max 405 for squats and 455 for deads (174 lb bodyweight) . Past that I haven't gone though and am okay with not doing it. I say you can perform them but only if your form is impeccable. And chin tucks are a necessity when doling Deadlifts due to the forces on the spine. Doing Deadlifts without chin tucks is asking for back problems. 

For legs I prefer unilateral exercises since it is harder to cheat. I don't like big 3 exercises simply because it is easy to get into your own head and push unnecessarily past your limits just to brag about how strong you are. Realistically no one really needs to deadlift, bench, or squat to have a strong and healthy body or healthy bones. 

Finally I disagree with you that faces like that guy you posted are genetic. How do I know? Well, because I have never seen an infant with features like those. That is a case of CFD if I have ever seen one because he has all the tell tale signs. Weak eye support, long midface, receding chin, and very high gonial angle. That face is not due to genetics but improper function. That kid most likely is a mouth breather and walks around with forward head posture. I know because when my face looked like that I thought it was also part of my "phenotype". But over the years as I have fixed my posture, increased muscle tone, and more importantly stopped wearing my Hawley retainer, my face has made good progress. Only now am I focusing on chin tucks and fixing forward head posture as well as mewing. You guys know I used to post about "phenotypes" and that garbage but the more I learn about the body, the more I realize people with long faces don't have then due to genetics but environment . And yes, if everyone in an environment adopts the same practices, the same level of cfd will affect most people. This is why in Europe narrow palates are common just like long faces are common in East Asia (along with bimax). Doesn't mean the genetics for those features caused that. But more improper practices used by most everyone. 

But mewing in and of itself I don't think is enough to fix cfd. It has to be done with a combo of positioning the body properly, getting enough calories, and stressing the bones with physical activity. In other words, don't expect to have the face of a jock if you live like a nerd .

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2018 10:35 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

Not to drag this for miles, but how do we know when it's just genes or environment? Or which one has the stronger hold? I know people can greatly change and bones adapt and whatnot, but when are the times genes have the best of you?

You really think anybody can look good or just "their best?" Because asking around, I'm sure you'll get conflicting opinions on the difference between "looks good" and "looks their best" in a general point of view. The difference can boil down from attraction to just decency/non-horrifying in appearance, which I'm sure almost everybody would/should be at such a level anyways.

It seems there's some evidence that posture, diet, CFD, and etc. can affect appearance and structure, but to what end? Reversible? There's always that person who did everything right and still falls short.

Is this genetics or posture? I doubt everybody who looks "not their best" has terrible posture:

Keep in mind that the guy above is only about 25 and looks 40+ easily. And no, I don't think the photo is touched/altered in any way. It just seems like a stretch to assume anybody with subpar bone structure or other issues is a result of simply doing something wrong. Some people do everything "right" and fail.

I did everything "right" and still got treated like [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] by the world when I was younger. I was still ridiculed for being fat/recessed and criminalized even though I did only good. It's hard to change or believe otherwise when you've seen both ends of the coin -- the good and the ugly. I believe in self-improvement, but I think my experiences show that sometimes the world is really just against some people way more than others and there is little that can change it.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2018 11:51 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

Not to drag this for miles, but how do we know when it's just genes or environment? Or which one has the stronger hold? I know people can greatly change and bones adapt and whatnot, but when are the times genes have the best of you?

You really think anybody can look good or just "their best?" Because asking around, I'm sure you'll get conflicting opinions on the difference between "looks good" and "looks their best" in a general point of view. The difference can boil down from attraction to just decency/non-horrifying in appearance, which I'm sure almost everybody would/should be at such a level anyways.

It seems there's some evidence that posture, diet, CFD, and etc. can affect appearance and structure, but to what end? Reversible? There's always that person who did everything right and still falls short.

Is this genetics or posture? I doubt everybody who looks "not their best" has terrible posture:

Keep in mind that the guy above is only about 25 and looks 40+ easily. And no, I don't think the photo is touched/altered in any way. It just seems like a stretch to assume anybody with subpar bone structure or other issues is a result of simply doing something wrong. Some people do everything "right" and fail.

I did everything "right" and still got treated like [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] by the world when I was younger. I was still ridiculed for being fat/recessed and criminalized even though I did only good. It's hard to change or believe otherwise when you've seen both ends of the coin -- the good and the ugly. I believe in self-improvement, but I think my experiences show that sometimes the world is really just against some people way more than others and there is little that can change it.

Lol @ that guy "doing everything right". I have seen his videos that reek of existential meltdowns and suicidal tendencies. He doesn't do much right at all. He is 25, smokes like a chimney, doesn't exercise, and in general has a shitty attitude about life and seems like a curmudgeon despite the fact he is 7 years younger than I am. What makes you think genetics did this to him? He damages his health every day. Let's find a better example next time. If that guy gave a [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] about changing I could feel sympathy and blame genetics. But instead he is part of that looks based toxic environment that makes excuses for downfalls in life just by "not being born Chad". When this guy comes back and reveals that he is a jock who works out 6x a week with an impeccable diet then I will believe his sob stories or have sympathy. 

To your question about genes or environment it's simple really. If a person looks older than they are, their environment is to blame and not genes mostly unless they have a disease. Barring disease, nobody should look older than they are. 

Take someone like Matthew McConaughey. He doesn't have the most chiseled or robust face and is rather narrow. But he has healthy proportions and doesn't look sickly or old. His features are healthy and truthfully that could be called a "phenotype" in that nothing is wrong with his appearance. He isn't ugly. Usually when someone is ugly is because something is off about their health (and health includes posture) 

I was a handsome young man until I turned 10. Then from 10 to 17 it got really bad. Is that genetics? No. It is not. Are most infants ugly? No. Most infants all look the same barring skin tone and hair type. They all have the same bulbous foreheads, big eyes, and round faces that make them "cute". It is only when life beats them down and they become bitter adolescents (like the guy you posted) and take on horrible habits like smoking (he is a smoker) and just being in a general horrible mood all the time that their face deteriorates. Why do you think these deformed faces are genetic? Most people's baby pictures (if they were healthy) don't show some gargoyle like mess. But as people grow older and don't utilize their body the way it is supposed to be used, then this is when people become ugly. Bad posture, bad health habits, and overall bad moods deteriorate the body.

Why does that 25 year old look 40? Judging by his facial structure he is quite neotenous so it is most likely his stupid smoking habit that makes his skin look sickly and terrible. Also why does he keep hair when his hairline is so high? He would look better if he shaved his head. He is also fat and that is unhealthy in and of itself. His face structure is more suited to something like a buzz cut considering how flat his forehead is and how young he looks. Ryan Gosling has a similar face shape and he pulls it off with stubble + a buzz cut (not being fat helps too). Don't underestimate the damage a bad haircut can do. There are even ugly pics of David Gandy so no one is immune from looking bad. 

Genetics isn't to blame for people smoking ,overeating, or having bad habits in general. Show me someone who is healthy and is ugly . It is hard to find. Maybe they aren't models but I haven't seen very healthy people be ugly .

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Posted : 09/05/2018 12:32 am
Angelina liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

I don't support his tirades, but Eggman (if he still calls himself that) became negative after being treated like crap by other people for his looks, it's not like he randomly decided to be miserable and that made him look dramatically worse as a result. The smoking is going to affect his skin, along with no exercise, and from what I remember, he constantly worked very long shifts and hardly slept. He is "cranially-challenged" with a long list of poor lifestyle choices, which would improve his appearance if fixed, but would not address moving his facial bones. He looks to have a very narrow palate, too. By all means, he should put some effort in and see what happens, but unless it's combined with strict dedication to mewing, I think it's quite limited.

Shaving his head would be an improvement, but does he actually have a high hairline or is his skull abnormally large? Just covering up the top of his head makes him look a lot more normal. Regardless, that photo of him is useless because when he got into his extremely low moods, every photo he'd post would be exaggerated to make him look as bad as possible. This one is more realistic:
Eggman 1
This is a somewhat flattering photo of him, IMO:
Eggman 2
In some photos, it seems like he has a good sized chin, but unlike Ryan Gosling, it doesn't protrude outward at all. With his massive cranium (whether that's magnified by his hairline or not), his face looks very out of balance.

Ryan's eyes are close together, he has noticeable asymmetry, and a fairly flat/long face, so I don't get why he's revered as such an attractive man. I'm not even disagreeing, I totally get it, though I don't know if it's because he has desirable features that make up for his flaws or if it's a good combination of attractive without being intimidating (boy/man-next-door type quality) or what.

As an example of someone who looks healthy and is unattractive, how about this guy?
(attached photo) I don't know him, I don't know what his diet is, but for that physique, I'll assume he was eating quite well. He obviously exercised a ton and seemed to be living a healthy life, yet his face didn't become beautiful.

For an example of someone who looked good despite a terrible lifestyle, I'll point to Kurt Cobain again. Like Eggman, also 25 years old here for the sake of comparison:
Kurt Cobain

He had an absolutely crappy diet, never exercised, smoked cigarettes, was a heroin junkie, had gastritis, had scoliosis, and had a very negative attitude. (I find listening to him outside of the music to be insufferable) Even with knowing all of that, how does his face still project a modicum of health? The only reason I can think of is that he had good development when younger and then ruined himself down the line. I know his back problems started around age 13, and am fairly confident he never exercised and was always skinny. Eggman could solve all of his exercise/diet/smoking, etc.. problems and is unlikely to look healthier than a square jawed drug addict because his facial bone structure doesn't look harmonious, AKA healthy.

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Posted : 09/05/2018 6:31 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: PaperBag

I don't support his tirades, but Eggman (if he still calls himself that) became negative after being treated like crap by other people for his looks, it's not like he randomly decided to be miserable and that made him look dramatically worse as a result. The smoking is going to affect his skin, along with no exercise, and from what I remember, he constantly worked very long shifts and hardly slept. He is "cranially-challenged" with a long list of poor lifestyle choices, which would improve his appearance if fixed, but would not address moving his facial bones. He looks to have a very narrow palate, too. By all means, he should put some effort in and see what happens, but unless it's combined with strict dedication to mewing, I think it's quite limited.

Shaving his head would be an improvement, but does he actually have a high hairline or is his skull abnormally large? Just covering up the top of his head makes him look a lot more normal. Regardless, that photo of him is useless because when he got into his extremely low moods, every photo he'd post would be exaggerated to make him look as bad as possible. This one is more realistic:
Eggman 1
This is a somewhat flattering photo of him, IMO:
Eggman 2
In some photos, it seems like he has a good sized chin, but unlike Ryan Gosling, it doesn't protrude outward at all. With his massive cranium (whether that's magnified by his hairline or not), his face looks very out of balance.

Ryan's eyes are close together, he has noticeable asymmetry, and a fairly flat/long face, so I don't get why he's revered as such an attractive man. I'm not even disagreeing, I totally get it, though I don't know if it's because he has desirable features that make up for his flaws or if it's a good combination of attractive without being intimidating (boy/man-next-door type quality) or what.

As an example of someone who looks healthy and is unattractive, how about this guy?
(attached photo) I don't know him, I don't know what his diet is, but for that physique, I'll assume he was eating quite well. He obviously exercised a ton and seemed to be living a healthy life, yet his face didn't become beautiful.

For an example of someone who looked good despite a terrible lifestyle, I'll point to Kurt Cobain again. Like Eggman, also 25 years old here for the sake of comparison:
Kurt Cobain

He had an absolutely crappy diet, never exercised, smoked cigarettes, was a heroin junkie, had gastritis, had scoliosis, and had a very negative attitude. (I find listening to him outside of the music to be insufferable) Even with knowing all of that, how does his face still project a modicum of health? The only reason I can think of is that he had good development when younger and then ruined himself down the line. I know his back problems started around age 13, and am fairly confident he never exercised and was always skinny. Eggman could solve all of his exercise/diet/smoking, etc.. problems and is unlikely to look healthier than a square jawed drug addict because his facial bone structure doesn't look harmonious, AKA healthy.

Ryan Gosling is considered attractive precisely because there is nothing off about his appearance. Average looking people are attractive and studies have shown this. The whole "you need to look like a model with specific robustness or neoteny"  is ridiculously overblown. Tons of Hollywood people are considered gorgeous just by default of no flaws or minimal ones like asymmetry (which in the case of left to right asymmetry is very common). This is why at all times I don't take lookism seriously and even at times can't even take Mike Mew seriously when he says something like Scarlet Johansson has a narrow face and is unattractive. The attractive threshold is not impossible to meet. 

As far as Eggman getting a buzzcut, it is because he has a high hairline. Whether that hairline is caused by Norwooding or by his bulbous neotenous forehead is irrelevant. He still has a high hairline and having a hair style that draws attention to this forehead is a bad idea. Ryan Gosling also has a very large head. Ryan also knows to wear stubble to balance that out. 

Regarding Kurt Cobain, we had that discussion before. His jaw was well developed due to his bruxism. Also yes I will admit that his other features were rrobust and that is genetic (prenatal T exposure) BUT who is to say a man needs to look robust to be attractive? Guys like Ryan Gosling are not robust and they can be attractive as well. Being fat, having a bad haircut, smoking, and having a Droopy the Dog facial expression never helped anyone. 

At this point I want to point out i never said *anyone* is going to be looking like a square jawed model just by becoming healthy. What they CAN do is become not ugly. I will take looking average over looking ugly any day. That long faced bodybuilder may have a great diet but does he breathe properly? Health is more than just eating "clean" or being "ripped". Hell, how do you know orthodontics didn't ruin his face? We need to stop always turning to the lame "muh genetics" excuse. Again. Can anyone find me a lot of pictures of infants with cfd? It isn't common. When infants have cfd then they are diseased indicating that it IS tied to health. Find me a pic of someone with a long face who always looked that way since infancy. 

Losing weight cam certainly improve aesthetics for anyone especially a bodybuilder but who is to say that having a ripped body is proof of someone having good health? His neck posture may be terrible judging by how long that guy's face is. Ripped body =/= good health again. This is multi faceted. I know I have gotten down to six pack territory before and my face didn't have the square jawed model quality but I was also a mouth breather with tooth extractions (thus it isn't genetics). I don't understand why people post examples of other people they don't even know as if this disproves anything said on this forum. Do we know their lifestyle 100%? Do we know whether they are mouth breathers? Do we know whether they maintain proper head positioning? Do we know if they had orthodontics? We know nothing so we can't assume they are doing *anything* right. After all, who is to say he didn't just eat clen and tren hard to get to that level anyway? Just because someone bodybuilds does not make them healthy. Many of them have very unhealthy lives just as well. 

Point being, debating whether proper posture is a good idea because there are people we *think* are healthy and are unaesthetic doesn't really add much to the discussion to be honest. We can only guess what they do in their life but judging by a few pictures here and there and then coming up with conclusions that "well it must be all genetics" is a bit silly don't you think?

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Posted : 09/05/2018 11:02 am
Angelina liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

I'm not debating that long faces are genetic, it's completely the opposite. I addressed the part where you wanted a photo of someone healthy and ugly, which may have made it look like I advocated that he looked like that from genetics. You keep saying people need to live like a jock by exercising and eating a caloric surplus to enhance their face, and I'm saying that's barely going to do anything unless I've been misunderstanding you and what you actually mean is that every little thing coming together helps and a body that has enough calories and is getting adequate movement is going to be more susceptible to change. That, I agree with. You said "When [Eggman] comes back and reveals that he is a jock who works out 6x a week with an impeccable diet then I will believe his sob stories or have sympathy." You didn't say anything about posture or mewing.

You keep asking for photos of people who look a certain way, but then say 'you don't know them, so it doesn't count', which I get the logic of, but at least specify you want photos of people the poster knows. Certainly, the idea of someone posting "here's my best friend for the past 20 years with a long face who recently became a health nut and obsessed over fixing his posture, and here are his baby photos, childhood photos, and current photos" is going to be a lot harder to come by. We're hardly going to know what anyone's habits are 24/7 unless we're following them around with a video camera. Hell, can we even know what our own habits are 24/7? Using photos of other people as an example of anything is usually going to require cutting corners.

I'm not arguing that everything the long faced bodybuilder does is the apex of health. Of course it's multifaceted, but his body is in better health than a couch potato. You ask how we can't know if he didn't just eat well and train hard to look like that - I thought that was a large basis of what health was. Maybe not developing a body meant to pose on stage for competition, but eating well and exercising at least. What else do you consider healthy? I figured that proper breathing and posture was already taken into account, given the site we're on. Aside from not doing certain things (smoking, not sleeping) and oral/body posture, what sort of lifestyle equals health to you? In terms of what people on this forum should take up to improve themselves, what should we do?

Also, do you have any more examples of attractive average people like Ryan Gosling?

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Posted : 09/05/2018 5:59 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: PaperBag

I'm not debating that long faces are genetic, it's completely the opposite. I addressed the part where you wanted a photo of someone healthy and ugly, which may have made it look like I advocated that he looked like that from genetics. You keep saying people need to live like a jock by exercising and eating a caloric surplus to enhance their face, and I'm saying that's barely going to do anything unless I've been misunderstanding you and what you actually mean is that every little thing coming together helps and a body that has enough calories and is getting adequate movement is going to be more susceptible to change. That, I agree with. You said "When [Eggman] comes back and reveals that he is a jock who works out 6x a week with an impeccable diet then I will believe his sob stories or have sympathy." You didn't say anything about posture or mewing.

You keep asking for photos of people who look a certain way, but then say 'you don't know them, so it doesn't count', which I get the logic of, but at least specify you want photos of people the poster knows. Certainly, the idea of someone posting "here's my best friend for the past 20 years with a long face who recently became a health nut and obsessed over fixing his posture, and here are his baby photos, childhood photos, and current photos" is going to be a lot harder to come by. We're hardly going to know what anyone's habits are 24/7 unless we're following them around with a video camera. Hell, can we even know what our own habits are 24/7? Using photos of other people as an example of anything is usually going to require cutting corners.

I'm not arguing that everything the long faced bodybuilder does is the apex of health. Of course it's multifaceted, but his body is in better health than a couch potato. You ask how we can't know if he didn't just eat well and train hard to look like that - I thought that was a large basis of what health was. Maybe not developing a body meant to pose on stage for competition, but eating well and exercising at least. What else do you consider healthy? I figured that proper breathing and posture was already taken into account, given the site we're on. Aside from not doing certain things (smoking, not sleeping) and oral/body posture, what sort of lifestyle equals health to you? In terms of what people on this forum should take up to improve themselves, what should we do?

Also, do you have any more examples of attractive average people like Ryan Gosling?

Attractive average people would be those plain Jane Hollywood types like Gosling, Reynolds, McConaughey, Affleck, and hell even guys like Daniel Radcliffe who just have very normal looking faces without very robust features. 

Anyway I will specify that posture is a big part of health. Unortunately it is more common for people to neglect it even if they work out and eat enough. Especially people like bodybuilders who many times don't even have an athletic background but develop the habit later in life to sort of make up for lost time. 

My thing about Eggman is that the dude doesn't even try. But if he lived like a jock his facial aesthetics would at least not involve a fat face and that would help him a ton. Also most jocks don't have a ridiculous haircut like he does which just coveys "I give up". That dude just doesn't do ANYTHING favorable for his appearance, posture notwithstanding. 

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Posted : 09/05/2018 9:39 pm
Imma Get a Thor Chin
New Member

Ok Makes sense cause I've got all of that symptoms but what is chin tuck? I mean some say to tlit your head forward, some say to tlit your head backwards I'm so confused and I'm starting to Hate McKenzie whatever Tuck even without knowing what the hell it is.....Plz help

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Posted : 20/12/2018 1:14 pm
RamonT
Trusted Member

I think doing the opposite of the chin tuck is just as effective or better. Kissing/rubbing and squeezing the occipitalis muscles against your trapezius muscles , that means tilting your head/neck back and shrugging the trapezius muscles. If you engage all the muscles of the face, like the temporalis, frontalis etc, in the prosses while mewing, you head and all its muscles will be on fire. I chin tuck, but not as much as i the one i mentioned. Give it a try guys, thank me later =_=.

Have a happy new years everyone, and happy mewing.

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Posted : 31/12/2018 8:04 pm
Ayla31
Trusted Member

I think it's better to try to balance the skull on the atlas/spine by freeing tension in the body muscles (especially the neck). As the anterior part of the skull is a little bit heavier than the posterior one, there will be a tendency for the skull to rotate forward a little bit. It looks like a chin tuck, but without the risk of unnecessary tension or stiffness (like military posture for example). And it's natural, like the way toddlers learn to balance.

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Posted : 31/12/2018 8:26 pm
RamonT
Trusted Member

Another good thing about Shrugging and caressing your occipitalis and trapezius muscles together, is that you can see the whole alignment of the head and neck happening and you can make adjustment in the process. My  Adam's apple, or laryngeal prominence was crooked and is almost aligned now, i focus a lot on it and i align it with the center of my face. When i came to the US, two days later i broke my right jaw eating a bagel, and that created a bunch of imbalances in my face that i have been correcting for the past 11 years. Even then I've always been happy with my face, but it has been getting modified a bit =_=.

 

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Posted : 01/01/2019 5:34 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

If I tilt my head down as in chin tuck... it looks unnatural.  Additionally, tilting my head more straight or up (instead of down) makes my mandible feel more natural.  Lowering the face angle down can make mandible want to go forward.  It looks weird.  I’m not doing it.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 7:59 pm
RamonT
Trusted Member
Posted by: darkindigo

If I tilt my head down as in chin tuck... it looks unnatural.  Additionally, tilting my head more straight or up (instead of down) makes my mandible feel more natural.  Lowering the face angle down can make mandible want to go forward.  It looks weird.  I’m not doing it.

Yes, it looks and it is unnatural, i agree =_=, however doing the chin tuck the right way it will look normal. The way i described above it also looks unnatural, so i just do it indoor. But it is a very good way to balance the muscles of the neck and see what part of the muscles of the face are not balanced/ symmetric.

This week I'm gonna put a  picture in my avatar showing the way i do it.

P.S.

I think balance is the key, both have their benefit.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 8:38 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: darkindigo

If I tilt my head down as in chin tuck... it looks unnatural.  Additionally, tilting my head more straight or up (instead of down) makes my mandible feel more natural.  Lowering the face angle down can make mandible want to go forward.  It looks weird.  I’m not doing it.

Yes, it's not advisable to tilt your head down. The main point of the chin tuck is to elongate the cervical spine, not to curve it forward.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 9:01 pm
Parks
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Keengo

Not to drag this for miles, but how do we know when it's just genes or environment? Or which one has the stronger hold? I know people can greatly change and bones adapt and whatnot, but when are the times genes have the best of you?

You really think anybody can look good or just "their best?" Because asking around, I'm sure you'll get conflicting opinions on the difference between "looks good" and "looks their best" in a general point of view. The difference can boil down from attraction to just decency/non-horrifying in appearance, which I'm sure almost everybody would/should be at such a level anyways.

It seems there's some evidence that posture, diet, CFD, and etc. can affect appearance and structure, but to what end? Reversible? There's always that person who did everything right and still falls short.

Is this genetics or posture? I doubt everybody who looks "not their best" has terrible posture:

Keep in mind that the guy above is only about 25 and looks 40+ easily. And no, I don't think the photo is touched/altered in any way. It just seems like a stretch to assume anybody with subpar bone structure or other issues is a result of simply doing something wrong. Some people do everything "right" and fail.

I did everything "right" and still got treated like [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] by the world when I was younger. I was still ridiculed for being fat/recessed and criminalized even though I did only good. It's hard to change or believe otherwise when you've seen both ends of the coin -- the good and the ugly. I believe in self-improvement, but I think my experiences show that sometimes the world is really just against some people way more than others and there is little that can change it.

Lol @ that guy "doing everything right". I have seen his videos that reek of existential meltdowns and suicidal tendencies. He doesn't do much right at all. He is 25, smokes like a chimney, doesn't exercise, and in general has a shitty attitude about life and seems like a curmudgeon despite the fact he is 7 years younger than I am. What makes you think genetics did this to him? He damages his health every day. Let's find a better example next time. If that guy gave a [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] about changing I could feel sympathy and blame genetics. But instead he is part of that looks based toxic environment that makes excuses for downfalls in life just by "not being born Chad". When this guy comes back and reveals that he is a jock who works out 6x a week with an impeccable diet then I will believe his sob stories or have sympathy. 

To your question about genes or environment it's simple really. If a person looks older than they are, their environment is to blame and not genes mostly unless they have a disease. Barring disease, nobody should look older than they are. 

Take someone like Matthew McConaughey. He doesn't have the most chiseled or robust face and is rather narrow. But he has healthy proportions and doesn't look sickly or old. His features are healthy and truthfully that could be called a "phenotype" in that nothing is wrong with his appearance. He isn't ugly. Usually when someone is ugly is because something is off about their health (and health includes posture) 

I was a handsome young man until I turned 10. Then from 10 to 17 it got really bad. Is that genetics? No. It is not. Are most infants ugly? No. Most infants all look the same barring skin tone and hair type. They all have the same bulbous foreheads, big eyes, and round faces that make them "cute". It is only when life beats them down and they become bitter adolescents (like the guy you posted) and take on horrible habits like smoking (he is a smoker) and just being in a general horrible mood all the time that their face deteriorates. Why do you think these deformed faces are genetic? Most people's baby pictures (if they were healthy) don't show some gargoyle like mess. But as people grow older and don't utilize their body the way it is supposed to be used, then this is when people become ugly. Bad posture, bad health habits, and overall bad moods deteriorate the body.

Why does that 25 year old look 40? Judging by his facial structure he is quite neotenous so it is most likely his stupid smoking habit that makes his skin look sickly and terrible. Also why does he keep hair when his hairline is so high? He would look better if he shaved his head. He is also fat and that is unhealthy in and of itself. His face structure is more suited to something like a buzz cut considering how flat his forehead is and how young he looks. Ryan Gosling has a similar face shape and he pulls it off with stubble + a buzz cut (not being fat helps too). Don't underestimate the damage a bad haircut can do. There are even ugly pics of David Gandy so no one is immune from looking bad. 

Genetics isn't to blame for people smoking ,overeating, or having bad habits in general. Show me someone who is healthy and is ugly . It is hard to find. Maybe they aren't models but I haven't seen very healthy people be ugly .

looks like chemo m8.

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Posted : 05/07/2019 1:05 am
Meward
New Member

sorry to point it out but the long midface guy OP posted is from a porn video. Weird

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Posted : 31/01/2020 3:19 pm