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What the consensus about that?  

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Slufix93
Active Member
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oatmeal
Trusted Member

I don't think this forum can come to a concensus about anything.

But this is interesting.

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Posted : 07/11/2019 6:27 pm

What exactly is it saying we should do?

Is is saying to jut as we eat? Or to eat with some forward mandible motion....

If we bring the teeth back to increase mandible length, how will that create room for lower wisdom teeth? Is this proper forward growth?

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Posted : 07/11/2019 7:29 pm
Slufix93
Active Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

What exactly is it saying we should do?

Is is saying to jut as we eat? Or to eat with some forward mandible motion....

If we bring the teeth back to increase mandible length, how will that create room for lower wisdom teeth? Is this proper forward growth?

He said to jut your lower front teeth against the upper one as much as possible during the day, as a resting position.

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Posted : 07/11/2019 7:34 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I think it's interesting how much of the discoveries being made tend to happen around the same time. Sort of a universal consciousness kind of thing/everyone is now woke to oral posture blah blah blah.

But seriously though why wouldn't mandibular position be considered in terms of oral posture? If our mandible is pushed back by our maxilla but it can freely move on its own condylar position (unlike the maxilla), wouldn't it be best to allow it to deliver forces to where they are needed?

And while excessive mandible force can vertically shorten the whole facial length, it does nothing for midface ratios. So you can chew your way to a smaller face, but your lower third would shrink and midface wouldn't improve. You'd just end up with a small box face and bad overbite. No CCW rotation. Your profile would improve but the face itself may get worse. Most people's bad mewing results IMO are bad chewing results. They report more 3d profiles but no cheekbone width and meanwhile they think their whole face looks worse. And what are they doing? Excessive masseter training and molar contact. 

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Posted : 08/11/2019 8:27 am

@eddiemoney

But couldn't jutting do the same thing? Create an imbalance that negatively effects the maxilla.......

My cheekbones and ogee curve have recessed, which IMO is due to excessive large bite force chewing food on the back molars. 

Nobody seems to believe me but the same thing happened to Whistler, so can we please just assume that we are telling the truth..... and I have even noticed the same thing happen to a youtuber I follow who doesnt know about mewing, but started to train hard and eat more. But I was mewing the entire time and it still happened to me, because I didnt actually strengthen the tounge or chew in a balanced way by incorporating open mouth chewing and also chewing with the front teeth.

If you can create an imbalance with chewing then you can create an imbalance with jutting imo. I think i'm starting to understand why it's so important for the mandible to follow the maxilla and not the other way around.

@progress is doing things correctly. He actually improved his posture so much that he was able to slowly expand both the upper and lower teeth without ever feeling a difference in occlusion.

You can see in this before and after that he has rotated his maxilla.

But I think if he was smiling in the before and afters the difference would be more apparent. For me, a static photo looks similar to me in March, but when I smile the negative changes are far more noticeable. Which is why people who feel they are ugly are self conscious about smiling, it just reveals how recessed they are......

 

Is the purpose of this jutting to change teeth position or to influence the maxilla through the muscle activation induced while jutting? or both?    If so, why would jutting help bring the maxilla forward through the increase muscle activation?  

 

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Posted : 08/11/2019 6:29 pm
Astroskyoffical
Verified Account

@facegettingworseandworse

Same question I have.  Why jut 

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Posted : 08/11/2019 9:53 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

It's not jutting. It's holding the mandible in its ideal position in the condyle.

Your strong molar contact in chewing of course weakened your ogee curve and probably will continue making things worse. Clearly repeated rear molar contact over time can worsen the face.

I don't jut. Jutting is what Ronald Ead had to do to make his mandible reach his front teeth. I hold my mandible on its ideal position. Teeth don't touch. My bite has improved so much and my asymmetry has really reduced. My tongue covers all of my palate. 

Jutting =/= using muscle control to hold your mandible in its ideal position so engage all face muscles properly and especially such as lips. Jutting is walking around with an underbite trying to look like your jaw is huge. I am never actively suggesting using your mandible improperly. 

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Posted : 09/11/2019 12:03 am

@eddiemoney

thanks for the responses eddie and astro

I would appreciate some advice on how I should proceed, should I stop chewing for a couple of weeks and just drink smoothies and focus on tongue posture? Should I chew but focus more on anterior chewing?

Is excessive rear molar contact only bad when you don't also chew with the front teeth and/or don't have adequate tongue strength/posture?   I understand how it could cause a deep bite, but why would ogee curve worsen exactly?      

Lets say you put the mandible in the perfect position, why would that improve the maxilla position? By placing the jaw into it's proper position, are we not just creating further imbalance relative to the maxilla? 

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Posted : 09/11/2019 8:37 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

@eddiemoney

thanks for the responses eddie and astro

I would appreciate some advice on how I should proceed, should I stop chewing for a couple of weeks and just drink smoothies and focus on tongue posture? Should I chew but focus more on anterior chewing?

Is excessive rear molar contact only bad when you don't also chew with the front teeth and/or don't have adequate tongue strength/posture?   I understand how it could cause a deep bite, but why would ogee curve worsen exactly?      

Lets say you put the mandible in the perfect position, why would that improve the maxilla position? By placing the jaw into it's proper position, are we not just creating further imbalance relative to the maxilla? 

Do you chew with all your teeth or just your molars? Because excessive molar contact shortens the face via a clockwise maxillary rotation which creates an overbite. 

My view on moving the mandible forward when chewing is it forces one to use their front teeth more. It's a way of balancing out tooth wear IMO. If excessive molar use leads to clockwise rotation and overbite worsening, then I am trying to avoid that. 

I don't think one should only use front teeth or jaw jut. But this technique is for people IMO who use excessive molar contact when chewing and have strong overbites/clockwise maxillary rotation. Plus my theory on why it would be ideal is because it forces one to hold their mandible in a position more ideal in the condyle. 

 

Also, regarding the ogee curve, have you ever seen someone with a deep overbite have good cheekbones? Or someone with a very short face have good cheekbones? No. They have pug faces or anvil chins. A good ogee curve is caused by palate expansion, not chewing. Stop with the chewing meme. Don't drink smoothies, just don't freaking chew for aesthetic purposes because I have NEVER seen anyone look more aesthetic from chewing. If your facial features have bad harmony, chewing will only make you an ugly person with a big jaw. Having a big jaw doesn't in any way affect how your features are spaced, which is what being good looking is. Chewing just bloats your face and shortens it in a bad way, which results in a weak lower third with the midface being unchanged and your features having no change in spacing. At least palate widening can affect your facial proportions where chewing leaves that unchanged.   

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Posted : 09/11/2019 3:36 pm
oatmeal
Trusted Member

@eddiemoney

I'm really confused honestly. So what you're saying is that excessive molar contact causes the clockwise rotation right? So how do I maintain the ideal mandible position, and honestly what is it anyway? I obviously

Here's a picture of my overbite and of my profile, because I need help on how to point this out. I think you may have identified what my problem was.

Thanks in advance btw.

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Posted : 09/11/2019 3:55 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @oatmeal

@eddiemoney

I'm really confused honestly. So what you're saying is that excessive molar contact causes the clockwise rotation right? So how do I maintain the ideal mandible position, and honestly what is it anyway? I obviously

Here's a picture of my overbite and of my profile, because I need help on how to point this out. I think you may have identified what my problem was.

Thanks in advance btw.

Gonna disagree about that being an overbite. Upper arch ahead of lower arch =/= overbite. 

Just don't chew excessively in hopes of aesthetic facial gains because they won't happen. I don't even chew whatsoever unless I want a stick of gum to freshen my breath. 

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Posted : 09/11/2019 4:15 pm

@eddiemoney

Regarding the progress you have made, I assume your ogee curve is better with your counter clockwise maxilla rotation? Wider and more forward and/or illusion of being more forward due to it's angle?

Yes I have been chewing my food with just molars with a closed mouth for 8-9 months, often with intentionally large bite force. Your descriptions of the negative consequences are spot on. 

Does the tip of the tongue work the maxilla clockwise? to balance out the CCW rotation of the back tongue.....? anyone know?

Could large bite force with front teeth reverse the clockwise rotation caused by large bite force of the back teeth?......I think your method of chewing with a jut will benefit this, because I imagine you could actually tip the upper incisors even further inwards by front chewing with an overbite (since there is nothing under the very front teeth....)  I hope someone understands what I mean. 

When open mouth chewing, I have noticed that opening my jaw sideways to the right, causes a certain sensation in the left cheekbone and/or the muscles around it......and vise versa. 

Everything has something opposing it, the front and back tongue balance the angle of the maxilla, and same with the teeth, and then also the tongue and teeth as a whole. I think we want all of this to be activated, but obviously you need to apply more force towards certain areas to balance yourself out, and obviously with most of us the problem is clockwise rotation. 

I apologise for being a bit of a dic in other threads everyone. I'm pretty frustrated with life rn. I like this community

 

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Posted : 16/11/2019 6:43 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I didn't experience CCW rotation myself as I am a Class 3 case. Flat occlusal plane, sunken midface, and narrow palate.

My case requires initial clockwise rotation (fix forward head posture), followed by lengthening and widening my maxilla (expanding like a balloon) over my mandible. The end result is a clockwise rotated occlusal plane with my midface expanding outwards. Almost the opposite effect of someone with an overbite.

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Posted : 16/11/2019 9:29 am
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

@EddieMoney Have you been unable to correct your forward head posture? Or is it a work in progress? 

Also, how does correcting head posture lead to clockwise rotation?

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Posted : 16/11/2019 10:02 am
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