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What palate expander should I buy? Will it fix my malocclusion?  

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UglyDuckling
Active Member

Newbie here. I'm trying to decide what the best device would be for me to get the best results. What I'm aiming for is to treat my malocclusion/crowded teeth, expand my palate, get an ideal facial profile, and improve my overall looks/attractiveness. I've never gotten an extraction done, but my facial profile sucks. 

I've done my research and want to buy my own palate expanding device online, but I am unsure which one to buy online. Would using a palate expander with headgear be the best for improving my facial profile? What is the best orthotropic method for me to take? 

Thanks.

I've attached pictures of my upper and lower palate, teeth, and facial profile. 

Picture album:  https://unsee.cc/a9143ea5/

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Posted : 08/02/2019 12:40 am
darkindigo
Reputable Member

I don't see the photos?  Truthfully, to get the best sense of what would be best... you really ought to get a CBCT.  This shows more stuff (like condyles and airway).  The lower jaw forward and the lower jaw back.  Any noises from TMJ?

This post was modified 6 months ago by darkindigo
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Posted : 08/02/2019 11:50 am
UglyDuckling
Active Member
Posted by: darkindigo

I don't see the photos?

You have to wait for them to load.

I can just post them here if it's too big of an issue.

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Posted : 08/02/2019 12:00 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Won't show still.

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Posted : 08/02/2019 1:29 pm
UglyDuckling
Active Member
UglyDuckling
Active Member

I measured my intermolar distance and roughly worked it out to be 54mm, or 2 1/8". 

Here's what my bite pattern looks like. 

 

 
I'm currently thinking about getting the y-plate expander from bracesshop. Is that something I should go with?
This post was modified 6 months ago by UglyDuckling
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Posted : 08/02/2019 1:56 pm
megamandude
Trusted Member

54 mm for IMW is an insane number. Judging from the pics you have somewhere in the 30s, you're mismeasuring 

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Posted : 08/02/2019 2:04 pm
UglyDuckling
Active Member
Posted by: megamandude

54 mm for IMW is an insane number. Judging from the pics you have somewhere in the 30s, you're mismeasuring 

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Posted : 08/02/2019 6:20 pm
UglyDuckling
Active Member

Yeah, it turns out that I measured incorrectly, thanks for pointing that out. It seemed insane to me, even though I never got extractions done. I measured from outside the molars, not inside the molars. My intermolar distance appears to be roughly 40mm upon measuring again. 

 

 

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Posted : 08/02/2019 6:25 pm
UglyDuckling
Active Member

Also, I have one more question. 

If I expand my upper palate first, should I follow up by expanding my lower one? I'm aware that the lower jaw slowly remodels, but I don't want a situation where the lower jaw is too small for the teeth to make contact with the upper one. 

Thanks for your answers guys. 

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Posted : 08/02/2019 8:47 pm
mewchell
Active Member

Intermollar width isn't between tooth points, it's between the closest parts of the teeth, ie between them, Mike does a video discussing how to measure it

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Posted : 10/02/2019 11:37 am
UglyDuckling
Active Member

@mewchell

I did this. I measured from the closest parts of my teeth instead of between them, and it appears that I'm roughly between 38-40mm intermolar distance. I have no special tools so bite pattern is the only way I can measure my intermolar width at the moment. 

I think I'm going to buy the 4-way palate expander today because I have crowded front teeth, and from researching this forum, a 4-way expander might be just what I need to fix my crowding. 

My plan is to spend the bulk of time expanding my palate to the point of uncrowding my front teeth, sanding off acrylic along the way. Then, when it's time to retain, I'll expand sagittaly real slowly to get some alveolar remodeling. When I'm done with that, I'll keep my palate size and hopefully my teeth shift to the right position. 

This post was modified 6 months ago by UglyDuckling
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Posted : 11/02/2019 1:27 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Check out the post here on how to measure it the easiest.... http://orthotruth.com/whats-up.html

Have you been "Mewing"?

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Posted : 11/02/2019 4:54 pm
UglyDuckling
Active Member

@darkindigo

Yes, I have been mewing for at least 2 months. But I feel like a palate expander would help me reach my goals way quicker. 

I used the celery stick method and got 35mm...

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Posted : 11/02/2019 6:53 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Gotcha... I asked because your teeth look a little flared and tongue a little scalloped.  This could be from Mewing.  I am not sure if your tongue widened from Mewing or not.  It is a muscle and as such will grow with use.  It does like like your tongue is a little small for your mouth.  Did it start out that way?  If you were my brother I'd suggest stop Mewing.  Let the tongue atrophy.  It may also allow for the teeth to more upright... though that may take some time.  After several months and getting back to "normal"... I'd probably leave as if the tongue fits.  If the tongue doesn't fit and there's still scallopping, I'd recommend a few different options.  However, it seems that the main issue is the lower jaw. It looks back to me in that photo.  However, can you please take a few more photos?  A side view with your teeth visible in normal biting position?  Also.. with your jaw as far forward as it can comfortably go?  (again showing the teeth).  Thanks!  I can't tell 100% what's happening from the photos.  Your nasolabial angle looks good.  A cephalometric may be useful.  This is one reason I hate Mewing... the tongue is a muscle.  It needs to fit.  It'll be hard to say whether something that splits the maxilla would be needed at this point.  I doubt you want to go that route... but your tongue is so friggen enormous for your mouth.  I think that Mike Mew needs to start really issuing disclaimers for protecting the public (not just the cronies at the orthdontic societies).

This post was modified 6 months ago 2 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 11/02/2019 7:11 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Age?  Under 34 mm is what Dr. Mew is worried about... that is... if the tongue isn't trained.  The tongue looks really thick and high in the back an not very big in the front.  However, most of the crowding is in the front.  If it's a 8 car pileup in the front and the forward teeth placement look good, I don't how to address crowding without widening.  The lower jaw looks recessed, but in your bite photo, it almost looks like your bottom teeth are in front of the top.  So, that's why I'm confused.  However, I'm not a doctor, have terrible manners and would likely consider seeing some consults.  Where are you located?

This post was modified 6 months ago by darkindigo
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Posted : 11/02/2019 7:36 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Your tongue is massive.  I think that originally, you may have been able to get away with self-ligating braces.  Braces tend to also allow for a counterrotation of the jaws.  Now I am concerned of how to get that tongue to fit.  It's huge.  Appliances may pull the teeth out of bone.  If you go with something like Smiles Direct, they'll align the front ones and it may push them out so far that your nasolabial angle becomes accute.  Definetely worth seeing a pro if you want to fix your front teeth.  I don't think you did anything "wrong"... so don't feel bad. 

This post was modified 6 months ago by darkindigo
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Posted : 11/02/2019 7:42 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Do you wake up tired in the morning?  Your skin is pale... your lower jaw recessed... http://www.airwaydevelopment.com/2014/06/link-airways-obstructive-sleep-apnea-faces/   If your energy is low or there are mental issues, I'd consider looking into a MAD appliance at night. 

You DEFINITELY don't want a Y-shaped appliance, if you were my brother. Your nasolabial angle would become more accute.   (Accute angles are more narrow... like a slice of pizza).. Your nasolabial angle looks good.  I wouldn't push it forward any more.  Do you by chance have a side-profile photo from before Mewing?  Some have said that they thought it pushed their mandible back and maxilla forward.  I'm wondering if this happened to you?

This post was modified 6 months ago 2 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 11/02/2019 7:54 pm
UglyDuckling
Active Member

@darkindigo 

I took some new pictures as directed. 

 

 
This post was modified 6 months ago 5 times by UglyDuckling
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Posted : 12/02/2019 12:30 am
darkindigo
Reputable Member

How old are you?

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Posted : 12/02/2019 12:46 am
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Thanks for taking those!  You have a nice smile and teeth.  

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Posted : 12/02/2019 12:48 am
UglyDuckling
Active Member

@darkindigo

I actually have an overbite, or a deep bite with my front teeth flaring forward. I just kind of made my front incisors make contact so that it would be easier to see both rows of teeth. I'm 18 years old if that helps. 

I exhibit a lot of sleep apnea symptoms. I wake up tired in the morning. Overall, I feel like s*** in the morning. I also have a hard time falling asleep at the right time. 

I'm located in Wyoming, USA. Are there any practitioners near me that could help?

As a side note, I looked around on bracesshop and decided that a simple outward expander was what I needed, because I read that it was the best for uncrowding the front teeth. My teeth are already tipped forward enough and I don't wanna make it worse. 

I want to combine it with facial protraction since my facial profile is flat, but then I realized that my appliance only has the head gear tubes, not the hooks meant for protractive headgear. Would tying elastic strings to the tubes, and then tying them to the headgear work? 

 

This post was modified 6 months ago by UglyDuckling
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Posted : 12/02/2019 12:59 am
UglyDuckling
Active Member

This is what I ordered. 

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/4/active-plate?number=0051.13

I got it with headgear tubes for facial protraction but I'm unsure if they're of any use.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/02/2019 1:32 am
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Are you by chance near the south/west border of Wyoming?

This post was modified 6 months ago by darkindigo
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Posted : 12/02/2019 4:04 am
UglyDuckling
Active Member

@darkindigo

Do they have good practitioners there?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/02/2019 8:08 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member
Posted by: UglyDuckling

@darkindigo

Do they have good practitioners there?

I haven't looked.  I was just wondering if it was worth a drive to Utah.  Sounds like you're a bit out.  There is a guy who does RPE on kids up to age 20/21/22.  In fact, I don't think that it's so uncommon. Ex. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23210848

A removeable would work as well most likely.  I know that some do a true RPE.  There is a guy near Provo, UT  who does a very stable fixed one.  He grabs super strong onto the teeth and supports the anterior portion of the palate.  Rips that sucker open.  If it doesn't go at first... he backturns then tries again.  But.. I also know of a teen girl who did DNA and got results.  So... there are options.  I know that the teeth tend to flare unless grabbed onto well.  This can be somewhat helped by a removable bottom one. A hyrax is common for grabbing onto the teeth... but it doesn't really support the anterior portion well.  The anterior portion (closest to the nose)... can drop.  It may not be a bad thing in your case.  Many will combine with something on the bottom to widen.  The one you have (if it works and doesn't just flare teeth) would give a stronger bridge of the nose.  Anyway... what you ordered may be worth a shot, but I just can't say.  From my experience, the arc shape matters to the facial effects.

If you were my son, I'd get a few local consults.  I would avoid an RPE that only grabs onto one tooth/side.  I'd go more hyrax or something uber supported. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/02/2019 9:06 pm
UglyDuckling
Active Member

@darkindigo

Thanks a lot. I could probably make a trip to Utah if needed, I've looked into some treatment options and the rpe + fm treatment seems like an attractive one. 

I've pretty much already ordered my expansion device but I'll still consider getting a hyrax expander with facial protraction. I'm just wondering if I still need to expand my lower arch, because if that's the case, I'll save up for a lower expander and get another one. I wanna try to avoid tooth flaring. 

I guess for now I'll try my expander and see if I can mod it to work with a facemask. If that fails I'll consult in Utah and see if I can get a rpe device installed. 

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Posted : 13/02/2019 12:13 am
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Actually... that one guy... I called their office.  They don't do RPE without SARPE past growing height... up to around 14... not often that late for girls.

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Posted : 13/02/2019 11:51 am
UglyDuckling
Active Member

@darkindigo

Will still have to give it a shot. If I can't get expansion with removable devices, I'll probably have to do SARPE if my sutures are fused (which is quite unlikely but still a possibility). Doesn't look too invasive. 

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Posted : 14/02/2019 1:58 am
UglyDuckling
Active Member

Some reason I ordered from bracesshop and they're taking awhile to process my order. Are they normally slow like this?

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Posted : 14/02/2019 12:46 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Check this out: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/unveiling-of-something-truely-awesome/   This is really cool! 

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Posted : 26/02/2019 1:26 am
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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