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What is your starting intermolar width  

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EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I am trying to find out where you guys are starting and seeing if adult palates really are as narrow as people online say they are. State your gender and first intermolar width when you first started tongue posture. 

My intermolar width for the first intermolars was 38mm. I am male. Interesting thing about me is I am not brachyfacial (short faced) but dolichofacial (long faced). As I have been mewing I have gotten shorter faced however (in the midface). This has to be genetic because most narrow skilled people I know have narrow arches whereas I never really did .  My skull is also under 150mm from side to side (temporal) at its widest points last time I measured pre mewing but maybe this changed. 

Are adult palates really as narrow as Mew says?

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Posted : 19/04/2018 9:57 am
Cassius
Active Member

I'm 34 mm now and I've been mewing for 7 months. No extractions in the past but I had braces that modified a little bit  my palate. My goal is to have a palate expander in the next months, I started looking for a dentist two weeks ago.

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Posted : 19/04/2018 12:51 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Jimbo287

Before palate expansion I was 31mm because I had extractions on top now I’m maybe 40mm.  I was classified severe brachyfacial at orthodontist but I wouldn’t say I’m short headed as my head is 24 inches in circumference and about 6.5 inches wide at furthest points of skull.  I always had a short midface since I was a kid despite having to have extractions so I don’t know about the extractions cause long face theory.  

Short faces are genetic. Nobody just becomes short faced through extractions. The palate will narrow a bit but it won't give you a brand new skull. How long is your skull?

I am dolichocephalic (215 mm length by 147 mm width) and dolichofacial but my palate AFTER braces was 38 mm. According to the online world I should have a narrow palate but I honestly never did. And I was very horsefaced.

This is why on the online communities I see a lot of misinformation from people who want to dismiss a genetic component to skull morphology. I mean I have had forward head posture and a long skull/long face but my palate width without any sort of effort was in a high percentile according to the online CFD experts 

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Posted : 19/04/2018 1:00 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Nah I understood . I was adding to your point by saying that genetic factors will contribute to your face shape . It isn't just braces . My family mostly has oval faces. So of course I will too . I can't blame that on ortho

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Posted : 19/04/2018 5:21 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

I am trying to find out where you guys are starting and seeing if adult palates really are as narrow as people online say they are. State your gender and first intermolar width when you first started tongue posture. 

My intermolar width for the first intermolars was 38mm. I am male. Interesting thing about me is I am not brachyfacial (short faced) but dolichofacial (long faced). As I have been mewing I have gotten shorter faced however (in the midface). This has to be genetic because most narrow skilled people I know have narrow arches whereas I never really did .  My skull is also under 150mm from side to side (temporal) at its widest points last time I measured pre mewing but maybe this changed. 

Are adult palates really as narrow as Mew says?

My starting intermolar width for first molars was 37mm. But the teeth in front are more narrow than back teeth.

 

It is not awful and I can stick most of my tongue up the palate, it is just not ideal for wide smile and wide, masculine face. My face looks rather slender and long, because of missing width. If I could get over 40mm it would make me more dimorphic. Hope mewing works!

 

EddieMoney can you post your face before and after expansion (mewing)? Would love to see your changes since I have a similar skull. Blank out eyes and everything that makes you identifiable.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 19/04/2018 7:20 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Jimbo287

People on this site have much wider intermolar widths than I see on other sites.  37mm would be above average for a man in today’s day and age.

Where do you get this info from? Any studies? To be honest I don't see people's palates as narrow as people online claim. I don't feel my palate is super wide.

But if it is then it goes to show the strong genetic component because my oral habits sucked and so did my posture for over 3 decades. 

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Posted : 19/04/2018 10:30 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust
Posted by: EddieMoney

I am trying to find out where you guys are starting and seeing if adult palates really are as narrow as people online say they are. State your gender and first intermolar width when you first started tongue posture. 

My intermolar width for the first intermolars was 38mm. I am male. Interesting thing about me is I am not brachyfacial (short faced) but dolichofacial (long faced). As I have been mewing I have gotten shorter faced however (in the midface). This has to be genetic because most narrow skilled people I know have narrow arches whereas I never really did .  My skull is also under 150mm from side to side (temporal) at its widest points last time I measured pre mewing but maybe this changed. 

Are adult palates really as narrow as Mew says?

My starting intermolar width for first molars was 37mm. But the teeth in front are more narrow than back teeth.

 

It is not awful and I can stick most of my tongue up the palate, it is just not ideal for wide smile and wide, masculine face. My face looks rather slender and long, because of missing width. If I could get over 40mm it would make me more dimorphic. Hope mewing works!

 

EddieMoney can you post your face before and after expansion (mewing)? Would love to see your changes since I have a similar skull. Blank out eyes and everything that makes you identifiable.

Yeah bro I am getting an album together for you guys

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Posted : 19/04/2018 10:32 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

I recently asked my dentist to measure my IMW without counting teeth and he said 52mm, which is a clear sign he included teeth anyways. I read somewhere that those teeth are ~5mm each and my old post-braces impression from 2010 measured at 41mm, so I'd say I'm at about 42mm right now. (no expansion has been done) My smile is narrow and forced due to my jaws being so far back, it would probably look nice otherwise.

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Posted : 20/04/2018 5:42 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I think skull circumference, width of face, facial width to height ratio, and length of face from hairline to bottom of chin need to be taken into consideration when determining is someone's palate is narrow or not. 

For example of someone has a 21 inch skull and a 7  inch facial width (from zygo corners), and they have a 35mm palate, that can be considered narrow just because of how wide their face is relative to their skull size. 

What if someone has a 25 inch skull, a 7 inch wide face, and a 42mm palate? On paper it seems wide but compared to the skull size it is rather narrow. Especially if this person is brachyfacial and they would have buccal corridors. 42mm would probably appear rather narrow on someone with a 99th percentile skull circumference. 

Dentition must also be taken into account. As men are traditionally less microdont than women (meaning our teeth are physically larger), a palate may LOOK narrow if it is high percentile in width but if the teeth are large in comparison (thus less teeth show when smiling due to their size). Megadontia would make an otherwise normal sized palate appear narrow.

So for example if your skull is large, you may have a "textbook" wide palate, but relative to your skull and mandible size it could be narrow.

I know Mew says our ancestors had like 50mm+ palates but their skulls were MUCH larger. CFD experts online are also the same people who will label features like a sloping forehead as "bad posture" but our ancestors had foreheads much more sloped as their neoteny was much less pronounced. Also, with neoteny come straighter foreheads in profile AND narrower palates. Why do some CFD experts like some primitive features like low and sharp gonial angles but not the sloping foreheads of ancient man? They love the otherwise robust features such as a low fWHR, wide faces, greater jaw size relative to skull, but then they want an infantile forehead on top of all this. Didn't ancient man also have less upright posture?

Anyway I went off on a huge tangent. My overall point is that everything said in the online community of people interested in oral myofunctional therapy isn't telling the complete story. It isn't as simple as just measuring millimeters. 

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Posted : 20/04/2018 2:45 pm
calgirl liked
Apollo
Reputable Member

My intermolar width was 34mm before I started using my palate expander. This was down from about 37mm after braces (more than 15 years ago). Maybe I'm imagining it, but I have this vague memory of the orthodontist saying that I was at the margin of when he would recommend an expander, and my parents making the decision that it wasn't necessary as long as he could make my teeth straight (to avoid making the treatment longer and more expensive). I've now regained those lost 3mm, and my goal is to reach at least 40mm with this expander. Hopefully that will make further progress feasible with oral posture alone.

I've definitely seen others on this forum report baseline intermolar widths narrower than mine.

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Posted : 20/04/2018 3:01 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

I think skull circumference, width of face, facial width to height ratio, and length of face from hairline to bottom of chin need to be taken into consideration when determining is someone's palate is narrow or not. 

For example of someone has a 21 inch skull and a 7  inch facial width (from zygo corners), and they have a 35mm palate, that can be considered narrow just because of how wide their face is relative to their skull size. 

What if someone has a 25 inch skull, a 7 inch wide face, and a 42mm palate? On paper it seems wide but compared to the skull size it is rather narrow. Especially if this person is brachyfacial and they would have buccal corridors. 42mm would probably appear rather narrow on someone with a 99th percentile skull circumference. 

Dentition must also be taken into account. As men are traditionally less microdont than women (meaning our teeth are physically larger), a palate may LOOK narrow if it is high percentile in width but if the teeth are large in comparison (thus less teeth show when smiling due to their size). Megadontia would make an otherwise normal sized palate appear narrow.

So for example if your skull is large, you may have a "textbook" wide palate, but relative to your skull and mandible size it could be narrow.

I know Mew says our ancestors had like 50mm+ palates but their skulls were MUCH larger. CFD experts online are also the same people who will label features like a sloping forehead as "bad posture" but our ancestors had foreheads much more sloped as their neoteny was much less pronounced. Also, with neoteny come straighter foreheads in profile AND narrower palates. Why do some CFD experts like some primitive features like low and sharp gonial angles but not the sloping foreheads of ancient man? They love the otherwise robust features such as a low fWHR, wide faces, greater jaw size relative to skull, but then they want an infantile forehead on top of all this. Didn't ancient man also have less upright posture?

Anyway I went off on a huge tangent. My overall point is that everything said in the online community of people interested in oral myofunctional therapy isn't telling the complete story. It isn't as simple as just measuring millimeters. 

I took a rough measurement just now and my skull circumference is around 23", length is around (???) and width is maybe (???) if I measured properly. Edited for likely incorrect measurement. Not sure where those numbers would fit in the range of skull size. Would you mind if I PM'd you a few photos to get a more accurate assessment? I've wanted to get feedback on how bad my face is for ages but always figured the pics would find their way to Lookism/Sluthate to get torn apart.

You're right about dentition size, I mistakenly wondered why men having a Julia Roberts-esque smile was so rare. It may not even look good with tooth size factored in. Her teeth don't look small by any means, though. My dentist said 42mm is "average width", for what that's worth. You did just explain a lot about palate width in relation to skull size, but I constantly see attractive men with what appears to be quite narrow palates/smiles. How can they get forward projection but not have a decent smile? They do that "grrr, I'm showing you my teeth" smile that looks forced, yet they are otherwise attractive. It never makes sense to me, I thought both types of development would follow each other.

Aren't sloping foreheads referred to as bad posture only when talking about today's standards? A sloped forehead look can be achieved when a flat forehead is subjected to forward head posture, creating an illusion. Perhaps it's a negative quality because foreheads evolved to not be sloped anymore? That's a simple guess, you know a lot more than I do. CFD experts may prefer straighter foreheads because it's a more neotenous quality. Also, frontal lobe development over time probably made the forehead come out more.

Edit - Another question I have is about the recommended head posture of completely tucking the chin. I know it's advised to do this to direct force upwards, but it's also said to be the proper default head posture. Does anyone outside of models during a runway show have this precise posture? Plenty of attractive people don't have this locked stone statue-like head posture, even though it's still much better posture than average. Some women do this "funny face" pose for photos when they tuck their head/chin and they almost always have a double chin no matter how good their face structure is. Is a very slight bit of head craning normal? Flawless posture is preached a lot, even though very few attractive people do it to that extent.

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Posted : 20/04/2018 8:23 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

Can you show a picture where exactly to measure facial width? Eddie said the corner of the zygos, which I may have misinterpreted. In fact, I think I got it completely wrong and I already said in my post "if I measured properly". I've never posted on sluthate or lookism and don't plan on it, all I've ever seen on those sites is vitriol towards everything. There's no humble bragging going on, explain where you measure facial width from and I'll give you my real number. 

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Posted : 20/04/2018 9:56 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

I did Google it and some people give way farther measurement points, and Eddie's hypothetical scenario of 21" circumference + 35mm palate made me think 7" width had to be on the low end so I measured with that in mind, measuring the whole face's width by accident. Anyway, I think it's 6 inches or so after checking again.

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Posted : 20/04/2018 11:42 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

Where are you seeing that 6" is 99th percentile? I can't even find tangible info about 5.5 being average. What am I doing here? Trying to resolve my lack of facial development, of course.

My skull circumference is around 23", which is about average. I'm doing all of these measurements with a loose measuring tape and webcam, but that one's easy to confirm as accurate. If you're assuming I look like Dolph Lundgren or an "alpha"/"slayer" of any kind, you are mistaken.

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Posted : 21/04/2018 1:07 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@Jimbo287

I am not interested in arguing for the sake of arguing. We can discuss intermolar widths but there is no place for inflammatory posts

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Posted : 21/04/2018 11:42 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

For sake of curiosity I crudely measured my skull length vertically, width and circumference.

 

Width: 16.5 cm aka ±6.5 inches

Length: 25 cm aka ±9.8 inches

Circumference (measured above ears): 59 cm aka ±23 inches

 

Now, where do I see some chart with head circumferences and dimensions for males to calculate if my fits in normal range?

And I don't see what this has to do with narrow palate. A person can be with a long and wide skull on top, but the lower third can still be narrow with an underbite or narrow palate. Just because you have a big head does not mean you can't have narrow maxilla relative to your big head.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 21/04/2018 1:24 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

 

Ok, so i'm pretty much in 95th percentile for facial length and top 99th percentile in width, which makes NO SENSE, because my face is obviously elongated vertically, even my orthodontist said so.

Average human head circumference 57 centimetres in males and 55 centimetres in females .

 

Hmm, seems I'm 2 cm in above average circumference which might be attributed to overdeveloped temporal muscles due to all the mewing and general gym workouts on the neck. 

 

What is interesting is that despite these dimensions my upper palate is still narrow as I have indicated it in another thread along with casts and objective measurements. So it doesn't mean if your skull is big you will automatically have a nice wide smile with a nice wide palate.

 

Furthermore my cheekbones are pretty much non-existent. And the whole undereye area is flat and sunken along with recessed maxilla. 

 

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 21/04/2018 1:57 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

I measured my head width just above the ears (not including ears). Basically area right above ears, that goes across the eyes. I am not saying these measurements are precise, I don't have precise tools, just used a box to even out angle out of side of head and a regular ruler. 

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 21/04/2018 3:42 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: recessedmaxilla

calm your tits big boi. Show me legit progress pictures of how mewing made YOU look better.

Account banned, and left up as an example of what gets you banned.  

1. This isn't lookism or 4chan, don't talk rudely and disrespectfully to others
2. There's no point in a person being here if their intent is to argue against the main premise. Skepticism is fine, just being disruptive without ever having said anything worth reading? No 

Back and forth arguments are fine as long as the users are actually contributing something. But don't hesitate to use the report button if you see a user who is only here to disrupt the discussion and insult people. We don't get a chance to check every thread, so reporting is going to be necessary as we're adding 4-5+ new users daily. 

@jimbo287 You're gone too if you keep harassing people for pictures. Only people who feel comfortable posting pictures will do so, and your requests for them to take pictures for you is uselessly shouting at internet strangers. Request nicely or drop the issue, do not try to pressure anyone for any reason. 

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Posted : 21/04/2018 3:54 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Jimbo287
Posted by: TGW
Posted by: recessedmaxilla

calm your tits big boi. Show me legit progress pictures of how mewing made YOU look better.

Banned, and left up as an example of what gets you banned.

1. This isn't lookism or 4chan, don't talk rudely and disrespectfully to others
2. There's no point in a person being here if their intent is to argue against the main premise. Skepticism is fine, just being disruptive without ever having said anything worth reading? No 

Back and forth arguments are fine as long as the users are actually contributing something. But don't hesitate to use the report button if you see a user who is only here to disrupt the discussion and insult people.

i just think the word is getting out to sites like lookism and sluthate about this place.  I see post very similar on these forums.  Those guys on them sites have such a flawed view of reality it’s sad.  

 

I throw the bs flag when guys don’t do the research and then come on here and litter this place up with humble brag lies.  

 

The op even said he thought 38mm was more narrow than the avg.  how can he possibly know that?  Mew himself said avg is 33-37mm.  If these guys are not gonna watch basic videos on orthotrophics and learn then they should be spitting out broscience.  

 

38mm is a respectable size for a male dental arch of most head sizes but can be approved upon definitely.  That’s why we are here.  No one here has over a 24inch head.  Do they exist?  Yes but very rare.  

 

Im just trying to keep the integrity of this place while it still has it.  Do research guys.  Hell I have an picture of the avg face width and lengths of an avg 21 year old male that took 2 sec to look in google if anyone wants a link.  And guess what dudes, it says avg.  zygo width is 139mm and avg. head length is 9 inches.  Yet you guys have 9inch head widths.  

 

Please do do your research and listen to mews lectures.

 

From another thread:

Since this is measuring at the buccal surface rather than lingual

Subtract approximately 8mm and you get an average width of 47mm in Indian dental patients.

Here's a video of Mike Mew explaining this himself, as if in direct response to your comment. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26KBKhaieSE

"People from less developed countries who come to me have wider widths" and "Ancestors averaged intermolar width of the low 50s"

You're correct to be pulling averages into the discussion, but the averages that you are pulling at not concrete. Here's my own picture, from another thread:  https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/palate-expansion-update-1/

I started at 35mm, and got 5mm of expansion (as of that thread), so I'm personally sitting at over 40mm (as of a few months ago), with almost a cm left to go before my tongue fits properly between my molars.  

Maybe you both need to clarify with eachother which averages you are talking about. 38mm may be above average in the the UK, but is far below average compared to proper development - and 7mm less in average than in India

 

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Posted : 21/04/2018 4:50 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Jimbo287

 

also your math is wrong above.  You would subtract roughly 16 from the buccal measurements cause 8 for each tooth.  

 

Edit: Part of your message was deleted. Apologies. It was a fair reply

Right, it would be 55-16 = 39 +/- 2mm average intermolar width for India, which is still considerably larger than the 29-34mm of the UK that Mike speaks of. Yet these measurements would be people who have visited dentists, and in India this implies that they are part of industrialized society/diets. In the rural villages, I would routinely see adults whose palate widths were easily in the 50mm range. People that looked like the pictures you see from Weston Price's documentation: Very wide faces, and immense well developed arches. Not so much in the cities, but definitely more so among the poor. 

There's been people from over 117 countries on the forum in the past month, so the numbers for palatial/facial/head width that users speak about will be (literally) all over the map. Different upbringings, diets, and ethnic types within the same country will have massive differences, someone posting in the 99th percentile for a western nation is not in any way unexpected. 

Regardless: The reason that people stopped posting progress on other websites is because (aside from culture) they would always be harassed for pictures. People who do not want to post photos will not want to share their status/progress if they are repeatedly being shut down by requests for photos that they will never provide. 

I'm not shutting down arguments about measurements and being critical of reported numbers.  I am shutting down public request for pictures. Requests for photos are only to be done nicely through the PM system.

The amount of people who have provided pictures here umpropted is already remarkable, but nobody is to be pressured for pictures for any reason. 

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Posted : 21/04/2018 6:28 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

I got that measurement the first time because I wrongfully thought it was measured between side cheekbones, as in nearly ear to ear. EddieMoney has said numerous times that he at least used to have a long face, so I thought 7" width was an example reflective of that because he also included a fairly narrow palate width with it. As a result, I figured my width had to exceed that number to be the real measurement. You called me out, I admitted I was wrong and that should have been the end of it, but you're still so insistent on "speaking up" about the 9" figure I've already clarified, as if I'm purposely making up numbers and trolling the forum for my own amusement. I have nothing else to say about the matter.

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Posted : 21/04/2018 8:01 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Jimbo287
Posted by: PaperBag

I got that measurement the first time because I wrongfully thought it was measured between side cheekbones, as in nearly ear to ear. EddieMoney has said numerous times that he at least used to have a long face, so I thought 7" width was an example reflective of that because he also included a fairly narrow palate width with it. As a result, I figured my width had to exceed that number to be the real measurement. You called me out, I admitted I was wrong and that should have been the end of it, but you're still so insistent on "speaking up" about the 9" figure I've already clarified, as if I'm purposely making up numbers and trolling the forum for my own amusement. I have nothing else to say about the matter.

[Intentionally inflammatory response including a  personal insult]

Fine. Banned. Come back with a different username when you want to behave like an adult. 

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Posted : 21/04/2018 8:40 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Ok so high 20s-low 30s is average for the UK. That clears it up a lot. I am in the US but to be honest while I cannot physically measure palates I only see palates wider than mine on people with very developed jaws.

Do not get me wrong. I have absolutely seen some narrow palates. However, I personally do not feel mine is 99th percentile or anything like that but then again I don't live in the UK so the Duke of Norfolk would have a better grasp of that than I do.

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Posted : 22/04/2018 6:04 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

My intermolar width is around 25 mm. I have been mewing for 6-8 months or so give or take. I guess I have a narrow palate.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 22/04/2018 10:20 pm
Chipper23
Active Member

That is a very narrow palate. Maybe your not measuring right.  Have you had teeth extracted?  At 25mm I cant imagine getting a tongue on the palate.  I would look into palate expansion

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Posted : 22/04/2018 10:30 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

True I could've measured wrong, but I was pretty confident. The highest it could be is 30mm. I definitely don't have exacttly enough room for my whole tongue to comfortably rest on my palate. I believe 25-30mm is accurate for me. I think I would be a great candidate for it but I can't afford it professionally.

Are there any cheaper/budget ways to expand the palate without the tongue? Any cheap expanders and tutorials on how to set up?

I'd really love to see a basic guide on something like this.

Also, no I have never had teeth extracted.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 22/04/2018 11:58 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

34mm crew checking in.

Male, by the way. Mewing rookie (under 6 months)

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Posted : 28/01/2019 3:19 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Ok, my IMW is actually 47mm (grew from 46mm), and I still lack forward growth. I'm confused. Why?

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Posted : 03/05/2019 8:38 am
Jawanomics
Eminent Member

So is this lower palate and from the middle of the teeth?

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Posted : 03/05/2019 12:09 pm
Jawanomics
Eminent Member

Just measured using above parameters and got 40mm....which makes sense because the large Myobrace fits me comfortably.

They need to bring out a 42mm and 44mm.

I would say ideal palate is around 44mm

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Posted : 03/05/2019 12:13 pm