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Vitamin K2 importance? Exaggerated?  

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Keengo
Trusted Member

I've just recently heard of this supposed overlooked vitamin that's supposedly like a superpower some people claim. In forums like Ray Peat people have said that dosing/megadosing K2 has made their bones literally change: wider cheekbones; better bone mass/calcifying/etc. It's almost bullshit sounding because if only there was a pill to take that made everything perfect, right? Imagine that...

But anyways, I've never heard of this before the past two or so months and still have never tried supplementing with this, so I don't know if it can really help with things like mewing, face pulling, chewing, or the entire face/skull itself.

Supposedly K2 helps calcium in the process of rebuilding/healing bones, or something like that. Many people in the West are supposedly deficient in it or don't have optimal diets to get it in megadose varieties. It's not cheap to buy it in the amounts people claim it has helped them (40+ milligrams a day).

I see no mention of this here. Is this one of the keys to the holy grail? I've even seen people on some forums compare it to HGH/growth hormones in its ability to help bones. Is this what we're missing?

Should we all go megadose this to death for months? Let's get some word in on this...

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 13/06/2018 2:14 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

I don't think it's exaggerated imo. You don't need to megadose, but if you want to and can, you could give it a shot. There's only one study to back the safety of "megadosing" afaik. There are no studies to back the safety of megadosing when breastfeeding/pregnant, so I don't do it, personally.

There's a dentist who has his clients use it to help with midface development, more info can be found by searching on the forum. Important when facepulling, and possibly helps for general mewing and the effects of good posture on the face (shortening midface, for example). I think it helps me in that regard. I do eat fermented foods, but I've noticed an extra effect from taking the Thorn K2 mk4 drops.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 2:50 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

Shortening midface? You mean rotating maxilla? But that one you mention is pretty expensive -- almost 100 bucks. I guess it's worth it if it can improve bone health and mewing/etc.

Plus the Thorn one is the only brand that has enough concentration of it to megadose anyways.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 13/06/2018 3:40 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

I see no mention of this here. Is this one of the keys to the holy grail?

The forum is filled with people reporting that they supplement with vitamin K2. Here are just a handful of the posts that discuss the role of K2:

Posted by: Apollo

I must be oversimplifying this, but to achieve bone remodeling, it seems to me that we want an abundance (but not excess) of vitamins which encourage both osteoclasts (cells which break down bone) and osteoblasts (cells which build up bone). So vitamin A stimulates parathyroid hormone's osteoclastic activity, liberating calcium from bones into the blood, and vitamin D stimulates osteoblastic activity, depositing calcium from the blood in the bone. Vitamin K2 and magnesium seem to be important modulators of this mineralization balance. While I'm trying to improve my diet, I am also debating supplementing a multivitamin, D3, K2, and magnesium. Vitamin A excess has some bad side effects so for that I will stick with only the multivitamin and food sources. I also think that my dietary calcium intake is adequate.

Posted by: Apollo

what nutrients does the body need to promote such growth? Vitamin D3, K2, calcium, magnesium? Should I be drinking bone broth or eating organ meats?

Posted by: Amber12

Doctor David Buck:

Yes, I put all of my patients on K2, D3, Ca Mg to facilitate bone metabolism but even more importantly K2 is needed to allow the nasal septum which is cartilage to remain soft and pliable which facilitates mid face development. K2 is almost absent from our modern diets and as a result majority are deficient.

Posted by: Apollo

The fat soluble vitamins A, and D, and K2 are important for mineralization of bones and probably play a role in the creation of secondary dentin (but not enamel).

 
Posted by: Allixa

Another user on here mentioned that K2 was helpful in bone remodeling. After he took some he got a lot of palate expansion. I've always had the opinion that diet is more important than supplements but perhaps there are exceptions, and maybe supplementation can be important. But it's probably best to optimize diet first and cover all your bases before using supplements, otherwise they become a crutch.

Posted by: Progress

The doses for studied therapeutic effects of K2 mk4 are something like 40,000% RDA. With good food you can get perhaps 200%. I don't know how such massive doses of a fat-soluble vitamin can be so beneficial and so harmless, but it seems to be like magic to some people. Some people dissolve K2 in coconut oil and rub in their b***s for intense androgenic effects. I personally have not noticed much difference between not supplementing any and doing 45 mg / day for a while. I halted development of several cavities and coincidentally had slightly more energy, but that's about it.

Posted by: Greensmoothies

RE: probiotics, K2 - Some fermented foods are a good source of K2, although I recently purchased a K2 MK-4 supplement just to see what all the fuss is about, we shall see. I also take Vitamin C, E, MSM and D because I just can't get the therapeutic levels and certain effects from food alone. Every other day I take a prenatal for people with the MTHFR-gene mutation and hopefully have my bases covered. Definitely finding probiotics are a big component of maximising mew-gains, and they have a host of other benefits as well. Big mood-booster, for starters.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 3:57 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

can you guys share any links to these discussions?

 

also;

Some people dissolve K2 in coconut oil and rub in their b***s for intense androgenic effects.

😆

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Posted : 13/06/2018 4:13 pm
Autokrator, Goblin_slayer, EddieMoney and 1 people liked
Apollo
Reputable Member

I've mostly discussed it in the two main threads about nutrition and the thread about alternative dental hygeine (with some updates in the thread about my routine):

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/nutrition/#

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/de-ossify-skull-sutures-or-unfuse-the-skull/#

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/alternative-dental-hygiene-and-remineralizing-teeth/#

You should be able to track down the other posts using the search function.

 

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Posted : 13/06/2018 4:22 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

It's probably worth mentioning some of the specific foods that @greensmoothies alluded to when she spoke of K2 in fermented foods. Japanese fermented soybeans called Natto are probably the best dietary source, and can be purchased in the freezer section of Asian grocery stores. This fermentation uses a Bacillus subtilis bacteria that requires heating above room temperature (similar to yogurt production), and is also technically an aerobic fermentation (you have to keep the layer of beans relatively thin for air circulation, but covered to prevent them from drying out), so it is a more complicated process to do at home than sauerkraut, kimchi, kefir, or kombucha. I haven't personally tried to make it myself. It is also an acquired taste. Gouda cheese is another relatively good dietary source for K2. That being said, I've found it's easier to ensure I am getting an adequate dose by using supplements.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 4:32 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

I'm probably lacking in this vitamin. I pretty much entirely dodge dairy products as i'm of direct euro descent and I avoid soy.

Best/most value places to buy something like a 360 pack? or is it better taken as a liquid

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Posted : 13/06/2018 4:35 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: krollic

I'm probably lacking in this vitamin. I pretty much entirely dodge dairy products as i'm of direct euro descent and I avoid soy.

Best/most value places to buy something like a 360 pack? or is it better taken as a liquid

If you had the ambition to do the fermentation at home, it can be performed with almost any bean to avoid the soy. It is often made with chickpeas, but you can't buy this alternative form premade at Asian grocery stores. Some of the K2 supplements use chickpeas to grow the natto bacteria to avoid having soy as an ingredient. The supplements are usually capsules of dry powder.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 4:45 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Keengo

Shortening midface? You mean rotating maxilla? But that one you mention is pretty expensive -- almost 100 bucks. I guess it's worth it if it can improve bone health and mewing/etc.

Plus the Thorn one is the only brand that has enough concentration of it to megadose anyways.

Yes I'm pretty sure I rotated my maxilla with face pulling and I think K2 mk4 helped. I noticed the effect dr David Buck said about it too (quoted above in the list of quotes). I don't think my drops cost 100 bucks, but I can't remember.

This is one people will mega dose with afaik:  https://www.amazon.com/Relentless-Improvement-Naturally-Derived-No-Fillers-Science-Based/dp/B00GZVM092/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1528921815&sr=8-4&keywords=Vitamin+k2+mk4

or maybe they get drops.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 4:47 pm
Ellen
Active Member

I use Ibutamoren (MK677), it increases IGF-1 levels like nothing else. It increases ghrelin hormone, this increases HGH, and as you may (or not know), but HGH increases IGF-1.

Ibutamoren releases this in pulses throughout the day, because the ghrelin stimulates the pituitary gland to release HGH. IGF-1 is what makes you grow when you are younger, it declines with age. My IGF-1 levels are now the same as someone who is 10 years younger than me (I tested it in lab) with 25 mg of ibutamoren a day orally.

0 side effects, first two weeks I was a little but more hungry but that went away.

My skin looks better too.

there are many articles on the internet about it. Bone growth is dependent on IGF-1.

any more questions, let me know 🙂

 

edit: I added a pic where you see the correlation of IGF-1 and age. Go to google and type in: IGF-1 + age, for more pics on that, but you get the idea here

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Posted : 13/06/2018 5:16 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: krollic

mk-4 seems to have a short half-life but is more potent than its mk-7 sibling and has big test benefits. I think i'll buy a years worth of one containing both

Mine is MK-7, but it might be smart to find a supplement with both. I honestly can't say if there's been any impact from taking it for a few months. I've definitely made progress with my expansion, so I just assume my diet and supplements are helping that process.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 5:42 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/ check this out. very extensive

seems to fill cavities, which i have several of despite taking care of my oral health. i'm pretty convinced that my diet is seriously lacking in this supplement so i'm very excited to see what it does for me

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Posted : 13/06/2018 5:44 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Ellen

I use Ibutamoren (MK677), it increases IGF-1 levels like nothing else. It increases ghrelin hormone, this increases HGH, and as you may (or not know), but HGH increases IGF-1.

Ibutamoren releases this in pulses throughout the day, because the ghrelin stimulates the pituitary gland to release HGH. IGF-1 is what makes you grow when you are younger, it declines with age. My IGF-1 levels are now the same as someone who is 10 years younger than me (I tested it in lab) with 25 mg of ibutamoren a day orally.

0 side effects, first two weeks I was a little but more hungry but that went away.

My skin looks better too.

there are many articles on the internet about it. Bone growth is dependent on IGF-1.

any more questions, let me know 🙂

 

edit: I added a pic where you see the correlation of IGF-1 and age. Go to google and type in: IGF-1 + age, for more pics on that, but you get the idea here

This isn't really relevant to the subject of vitamin K2, but it does relate to the impact of intermittent fasting on growth hormone that some users have theorized about.

 
Posted by: Apollo

I noticed @test151515 recommends intermittent fasting. I already eat only two meals per day between the hours of 1pm and 8pm. That leaves about 17 hours of fasting per day. I know this isn't as intense a fasting schedule as some adhere to, but I think anything more rigorous might undermine my compliance. @test151515 suggests that the intermittent fasting increases HGH levels and he believes this has improved his results.

 
Posted by: Adam

Fasting (again not more than 1 day, if any I would recommend intermittent fasting) can boost HGH, but does this kind of a boost makes a difference in bone or muscle growth? I dont know.

The fasting, like your pulsatile dosage of the ghrelin receptor agonist, would help maintain ghrelin receptor sensitivity.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 5:51 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: krollic

it also seems to fill cavities, which i have several of despite taking care of my oral health. i'm pretty convinced that my diet is seriously lacking in this supplement so i'm very excited to see what it does for me

I wrote about this a little in the alternative dental hygeine thread. In short, the enamel doesn't have a blood supply or odontoblasts so systemic supplementation isn't helping to remineralize the enamel. What it can do is help fortify the underlying dentin to allow more time for surface remineralization of enamel to occur. So I think K2 can play a role in preventing and maybe even treating dental carries, but it is an indirect mechanism by helping calcium from your blood deposit in the dentin not the enamel.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 5:59 pm
krollic liked
krollic
Reputable Member

It seems very important that that supplements contain a very high level of mk4 to get excellent results. many companys seem to be selling it at useless concentrations.

The minimum effective dose for short chain menaquinones (MK-4) is 1,500mcg. 

Meanwhile a dosage of 45,000mcg is what'll net the supplement taker benefits comparable to studies. We're talking benefits such as: reduction in fractures, increase in bone circumference, protection from oxidative stress, reduction of cognitive aging diseases effects, better sensitivity to insulin, increase to bone growth rate, perservation of bone mineral density.

i'm really not sure what the hell i should be buying.  very difficult to find this supplement in such a high dose. can i get a hand, please?

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Posted : 13/06/2018 7:30 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

Just buy what @greensmoothies recommended. I think that's the best bet. It's 90 tablets at 15mg each or something like that. It's around $30 or so, which isn't too bad.

I'll probably buy that soon and try to get at least 30-45mg per day for a few weeks at least.

@ellen Wow, never would've suspected a girl/woman would looksmax/healthmax with GH. Pretty next level. I only hear of guys going down that route in many corners of the internet. Girls usually just go with fillers to the max. LOL Only hear of maybe athletes/sports women running the GH game

I'm also curious about how @greensmoothies rotated her maxilla as well. Just face pulling steadily? How long? Doing the donsjohn yanking routine with tons of power? Or the slower/steadier method? I do it slower because extreme force over time seems to just tip the teeth and seems useless

I am curious because I've seen some results with this, but I doubt I've sufficiently rotated anything.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 13/06/2018 9:08 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

45mg is 3 capsules x 15mg. i heard that 45mg was the threshold for getting good results? what sort of benefits do you get from 15-30mg

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Posted : 13/06/2018 9:13 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

I like to think that I get some dietary sources like aged cheese, and pastured eggs and butter (good sources of MK-4), but maybe I should increase my supplement dose. I take 100mcg of MK-7 (with the longer halflife), which the bottle says is 125% of daily value, but it also says "*daily value not established."

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Posted : 13/06/2018 9:22 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

Here's a couple posts I remembered from the claimingpower comments section about K2 megadosing.

Third Dimension Tourist says

AUGUST 21, 2016 AT 6:30 PM

Has anyone here experimented with megadoses of vitamin K2, particularly MK-4 type?

Just searching “k2 adult jaw growth” brings up several places where people are talking about adults taking over 100 times the typical daily doses for several weeks and experiencing facial growth, straightening of teeth… and some even claim to have become taller.

Best results (and full absence of negatives) seem to come to people who make sure to get enough A, D, magnesium and calcium while megadosing, which resonates deeply with what A has preached here.

I don’t think I’m going to resist the temptation to give this a try, it sounds just nutty enough to work.

Third Dimension Tourist says

SEPTEMBER 10, 2016 AT 3:43 PM

It’s hard to say how significant the results will be. They may be subtle or very significant, depending on your individual factors.

Many pills don’t have that much of K2 in them, but Carlson has a bottle of 5 mg pills on amazon and iherb. You have to experiment with the dosage yourself.

That being said, in Japan doses as high as 45 mg are used to treat osteoporosis without negative effects. As long as you get enough other A, D, calcium and magnesium (K2 starts a process that directly and indirectly needs all of those and if not enough is available you may experience some deficiency symptoms. Google will help to identify them, should any negative effects appear), even massive doses like that won’t cause any side effects.

I will be ordering some too later this month and I’m quite excited about their potential. Many adults have experienced facial bone growth and some even adult height growth when megadosing K2.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 10:48 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Keengo

Just buy what @greensmoothies recommended. I think that's the best bet. It's 90 tablets at 15mg each or something like that. It's around $30 or so, which isn't too bad.

I'll probably buy that soon and try to get at least 30-45mg per day for a few weeks at least.

@ellen Wow, never would've suspected a girl/woman would looksmax/healthmax with GH. Pretty next level. I only hear of guys going down that route in many corners of the internet. Girls usually just go with fillers to the max. LOL Only hear of maybe athletes/sports women running the GH game

I'm also curious about how @greensmoothies rotated her maxilla as well. Just face pulling steadily? How long? Doing the donsjohn yanking routine with tons of power? Or the slower/steadier method? I do it slower because extreme force over time seems to just tip the teeth and seems useless

I am curious because I've seen some results with this, but I doubt I've sufficiently rotated anything.

That's the one I've seen most commonly referenced and I believe it's the best price, but I saw mention of it being made in China if that's a concern. I've got no experience with megadosing or that specific supplement.

I've got pretty minimal experience with face pulling, but I detailed my experience here. Like I mention in the thread, it took 2 weeks of applying this method to see the rotation. I'm not sure if it's teeth tipping because the way I do it doesn't touch upon the teeth much at all, and do my best to concentrate the force on the palate (but the molars are bearing some force). Though I wouldn't mind too much if my molars tipped out a bit since they tip a bit inwards. I do believe the mk4 helped, but perhaps my mk7 drops helped too. I also take other supplements, and food isn't to be under-estimated, like prebiotic foods such as apple cider vinegar and honey eaten with home made probiotic food (usually sauerkraut or kimchi) before each meal. Anyway I'm currently taking a break from face pulling and working on some other projects, from my experience it's quite taxing so I need to be able to eat and rest a lot.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 14/06/2018 1:57 am
WalterWhite
Active Member

Didnt read all the replies yet but what do you guys think about this post on lookism?  https://lookism.net/Thread-Bone-remodeling-research-thread

OP discuses ways of enchancing bone remodelling and states that K2 may not be so helpful at all. Specifically he says:  K2 harms bone resorption. K2 kills osteoclast cells and results in reduced bone resorption. Some fool just read an article and posted to SH about K2 increasing remodeling but it only helps the part involved with forming bone and harms the resorption which is the great bottleneck to remodeling in the first place. You may thicken your facial bones and gain fWHR from K2 over time but you will never compress your midface and pull your maxilla forward when the bones are now slower to change.

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Posted : 14/06/2018 10:48 am
RedFountain
Active Member

Good overview on Examine.com, as always:

https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-k/

Notable increases in bone mineral density, decreases in bone fracture risk. This might indeed limit the ability for the bones to move and remodel, as @walterwhite suggests.

I'm going to try this. I've ordered this one. It's the highest dose I could fine that ships to my home country. It's 5mg of MK4, so 45mg is going to be way too expensive but 15-20mg a day should be a good start

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Posted : 14/06/2018 11:35 am
WalterWhite
Active Member

Also try to sprint x3/week, start fasting and maybe supplement your diet with some Niacin (vitamin b3) for maximum HGH gains in the "natural" way. Atleast this is what I plan to do along with facepulling, myofunctioning expander and mewing. I'm 17 years old, I hope to get some results.

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Posted : 14/06/2018 2:42 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: WalterWhite

Didnt read all the replies yet but what do you guys think about this post on lookism?  https://lookism.net/Thread-Bone-remodeling-research-thread

OP discuses ways of enchancing bone remodelling and states that K2 may not be so helpful at all. Specifically he says: K2 harms bone resorption. K2 kills osteoclast cells and results in reduced bone resorption. Some fool just read an article and posted to SH about K2 increasing remodeling but it only helps the part involved with forming bone and harms the resorption which is the great bottleneck to remodeling in the first place. You may thicken your facial bones and gain fWHR from K2 over time but you will never compress your midface and pull your maxilla forward when the bones are now slower to change.

Thanks for sharing this link. As I said in the post I quoted earlier in this thread, my simplistic understanding of bone remodeling is that we need a balance of both osteoclasts breaking down bone, which liberates calcium into the bloodstream, and osteoblasts depositing calcium from the bloodstream to build bone. For this reason, I think it is best to avoid both deficiency and excess of the vitamins involved in regulating this balance. We want enough osteoblast activity to help stabilize any progress we make, but the vitamin K2 dosages used to treat osteoporosis seem to be deliberating tipping the scale in the direction of building bone and away from breaking it down, so they might be exceeding the dose that would best drive turnover.

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Posted : 14/06/2018 5:38 pm
krollic liked
Keengo
Trusted Member
Posted by: WalterWhite

Didnt read all the replies yet but what do you guys think about this post on lookism?  https://lookism.net/Thread-Bone-remodeling-research-thread

OP discuses ways of enchancing bone remodelling and states that K2 may not be so helpful at all. Specifically he says:  K2 harms bone resorption. K2 kills osteoclast cells and results in reduced bone resorption. Some fool just read an article and posted to SH about K2 increasing remodeling but it only helps the part involved with forming bone and harms the resorption which is the great bottleneck to remodeling in the first place. You may thicken your facial bones and gain fWHR from K2 over time but you will never compress your midface and pull your maxilla forward when the bones are now slower to change.

I remember reading that. I post on Lookism every now -- and then and have dug through all of the garbage threads to find some actual relevant info on aesthetics/facial features. Makes you reconsider whether you should megadose if it's going to prevent bones from moving. Moving bones is what's ideal -- the GOAT.

If you stop or halt this, it's doing a disservice for all of the mewers, chewers, and face pullers.

I think MK-677/Ibutamoren might be a better alternative for some people than megaloading K2.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 14/06/2018 10:35 pm
Hanor
New Member

I found this on Amazon for 600mcg doses of K2 (MK4 and MK7). What do you guys think?

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Posted : 23/06/2018 5:49 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

I've ordered this.  http://www.idealabsdc.com/

It's called Kuinone. It's a bottle with pure mk-4 and has about 5-7 times the bioavailability of capsule form mk-4. You read a lot about it by clicking on its link.

I'll let you guys know how it affects me

@hanor. the dosage of that is way too low for a capsule. 600 mgc = .6mg. you want at least 15mg i think

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Posted : 24/06/2018 12:24 am
Mewed
Active Member

I would stay away from K2 has its been proven that affects bone remodeling in a negative way...You might get wider zygos from megadosing K2 (45mg a day ) over a long period of time but its not fixing your face.

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Posted : 24/06/2018 9:27 am
Banknote
Eminent Member

if you search well some things are still worth it in lookism or not  😆  

Some post about K2 -  https://lookism.net/Thread-is-vitamin-k2-mk7-worth-it?page=1

 

A lei do esforço nunca falha

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Posted : 24/06/2018 9:33 am
Mewed
Active Member

MK-667 , DHT(You might get bald) , GH is the way to go if you really want to speed bone remodeling.

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Posted : 24/06/2018 9:46 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

With the goal of balancing my fat soluble vitamins, I've decided to try taking 5mg of Mk-4 daily. I have been taking 100mcg of Mk-7 daily with about 5,000 IU of Vitamin A and 1,000 IU of Vitamin D3. I think I might continue taking the Mk-7 in addition to the Mk-4 since it has a longer half life. I'll take the Mk-4 after my first meal of the day for a good spike in the active form of K2, and then take the lower dose of Mk-7 after dinner for a more stable level through the night. What do you think of this regimen?

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Posted : 22/08/2018 3:31 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

Here is Chris Masterjohn's "Ultimate Vitmain K2 Resource:"

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

Interestingly, he claims that MK7 is better at reaching our bones than MK4 which is quickly taken up by other tissues. However, only MK4 has a role in regulating gene expression, including expression of genes controlling cell growth in osteoblasts ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17909264 ). So more MK7 might reach the bones, but it has to be converted to MK4 to promote bone growth. Perhaps people megadosing on MK4 for osteoporosis are taking enough for it to reach the bones in higher concentrations of the active form. Masterjohn recommends just 200mcg per day in a variety of forms including both MK4 and MK7. His recommendations for supplements are geared toward this smaller dose. He also includes suggestions for dietary sources. I still think I am going to try a higher daily dose of MK4 coupled with a smaller daily dose of MK7.

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Posted : 26/08/2018 3:13 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

Only 200mcg? Micrograms? I don't know if that'd do much. I guess if people really are as "deprived" of K2 in the West as I've heard of/read online, maybe even small doses could make subtle changes over time, right? Maybe?

I don't know. It does sound better than megadosing as that just costs more money to have to buy so much and it could all go to waste anyways past a certain point so.....

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 27/08/2018 1:50 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Personally for me MK7 results in weird skeletal aches in the legs after a couple of days of dosing at 200 mcg that only seem to get stronger the longer I continue using it. It doesn't feel as harmless as Mk4.

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Posted : 27/08/2018 3:02 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

Only 200mcg? Micrograms? I don't know if that'd do much. I guess if people really are as "deprived" of K2 in the West as I've heard of/read online, maybe even small doses could make subtle changes over time, right? Maybe?

I don't know. It does sound better than megadosing as that just costs more money to have to buy so much and it could all go to waste anyways past a certain point so.....

Yes, Masterjohn claims that most of the effect probably comes from the first 100mcg per day, but 200mcg is harmless and might provide additional benefit. He describes these as "nutritional" doses, and warns that higher "pharmacological" doses for treatment of conditions (like osteoporosis), should be taken under physician supervision. I've been taking just 100 micrograms per day of MK-7 to avoid deficiency. I am considering adding 5 milligrams of MK-4.

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Posted : 27/08/2018 3:47 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Any updates on this? I just ordered this:

 

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Life-Extension-Super-K-with-Advanced-K2-Complex-90-Softgels/78402

 

Hopefully that with glucosamine and other vitamins will help my bones to become thicker and maybe give a slight height increase due to all calcium, bone built up in spine.

I would prefer to get a megadosed vitamin K, but can't find any places to order it. Anyone have anything?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 28/08/2018 9:26 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Any updates on this? I just ordered this:

 

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Life-Extension-Super-K-with-Advanced-K2-Complex-90-Softgels/78402

 

Hopefully that with glucosamine and other vitamins will help my bones to become thicker and maybe give a slight height increase due to all calcium, bone built up in spine.

I would prefer to get a megadosed vitamin K, but can't find any places to order it. Anyone have anything?

This is the exact product that gave me leg pains. Not saying that you will necessarily have any problems with it, just thought it would be worth mentioning.

Edit: the amount of mk7 is now half what it used to be. Back when I used it one pill contained 200 mcg:

 

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Posted : 28/08/2018 11:04 am
andread24
Active Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Any updates on this? I just ordered this:

 

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Life-Extension-Super-K-with-Advanced-K2-Complex-90-Softgels/78402

 

Hopefully that with glucosamine and other vitamins will help my bones to become thicker and maybe give a slight height increase due to all calcium, bone built up in spine.

I would prefer to get a megadosed vitamin K, but can't find any places to order it. Anyone have anything?

This is the exact product that gave me leg pains. Not saying that you will necessarily have any problems with it, just thought it would be worth mentioning.

Edit: the amount of mk7 is now half what it used to be. Back when I used it one pill contained 200 mcg:

 

mk7 is giving me chest pains, this happened to other people too.

Maybe your leg ache is related to k2 blood clotting properties?

Ineteresting article: https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2018/03/12/magnesium-vitamin-d-supplementation.aspx  

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Posted : 28/08/2018 11:55 am
Matt
 Matt
Eminent Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Any updates on this? I just ordered this:

 

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Life-Extension-Super-K-with-Advanced-K2-Complex-90-Softgels/78402

 

Hopefully that with glucosamine and other vitamins will help my bones to become thicker and maybe give a slight height increase due to all calcium, bone built up in spine.

I would prefer to get a megadosed vitamin K, but can't find any places to order it. Anyone have anything?

I am looking at this exact product on Amazon funny enough. Can anyone give me a guideline on the recommended amount of Vitamin K2 MK4 & MK7 that should be taken with D3? I am currently using a D3 supplement with a dosage of 3000 UI. Thanks.

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Posted : 01/09/2018 8:26 am
bigmikela1992
New Member

OMG could you please PM me? I have been searching for so long for someone smart like you to talk to about fixing jawline. Would you please be willing to talk to me? 

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Posted : 17/12/2018 11:40 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Sorry, but much of this sounds like feel good anecdotes. If it really works, why can't we see actual before and after pictures with measurable bone changes?

 

I did 3 or more months of megadosing K2, D3, magnesium, calcium, glucosamine, etc...I can't say I see any changes.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 30/01/2019 7:06 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

About HGH, don't you need both high HGH and IGF-1 levels simultaneously elevated to be permissive to growth?

That only happens during puberty, if I'm not mistaken.

HGH is not anabolic to muscle. But it may be anabolic to connective tissue tissue. https://www.biolayne.com/articles/supplementation/growth-hormone-great-expectations/.

HGH from intermittent fasting (or even multiple day fasts) does not do much, it's like dust in the wind. IGF-1 are lowest when in a fasted state.

Pulsating peaks of HGH don't do anything, you need constantly elevated levels for magic to happen. That is my understanding.

Fasting is cope.

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Posted : 30/01/2019 8:53 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

I got easy increase of HGH via MK677, but it is a dangerous thing if left uncontrolled. You can't predict exact growth pattern. First soft tissue, only then hard tissue.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 30/01/2019 10:40 am
darkindigo
Reputable Member

I personally started taking this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CD3XUY/ref=sxbs_sxwds-stvp_1_a_it?pf_rd_p=03dd84f0-0dd9-4d32-b6cb-02a32e0ba336&pd_rd_wg=j3nM3&pf_rd_r=2RCNFAVX7YVENVCJSGVK&pd_rd_i=B005CD3XUY&pd_rd_w=oGsoL&pd_rd_r=1473758d-d81d-4d5b-a256-716bc900bed2&ie=UTF8&qid=1548865811&sr=1    I take TINY amounts... about 1/5 a tablet sublingually when taking it.  My progressive hair loss reversed!  New hairs growing in where they were missing!  And... all throughout my head.  A natural form may be better, but this works for me and so I'll probably have to buy one of those scales that measures down to the tiniest amounts (crack scales on Amazon lol) to better hone in on the micro doses. I suspect that it builds up in the system, because I did notice the problems of overdoing it in part from the daily dose, but also the progressive dose.  I'll probably get it down to about a 10th of the tablet.  The types of problems I experience if taking too much are that my heart can tighten up and muscles I use repetitively can tighten up.

I also tried the other version... MK-4, but I'm afraid to try it again as the one time I took it I got super angry.  With MK-7 it actually makes me more empathetic & able to read situations better.  I used to be able to read situations well for the longest time, but through a traumatic situation I mentally broke down (decompensated) really bad.  Anyway, after that I could not read situations correctly and it was a lot of struggle.  Example... just being able to know who your friends, frenemies and enemies are is VERY helpful.  Being able to decipher the intent and motive of those around, if impaired, is very troublesome.  The proper response in social situations to interactions can make/break a relationship and I found my ability to misread affected every relationship I had left.  So, it was really cool when I took MK-7, because I got that back.  When I use it, I do much better in that area.  I've started to make ammends with family and even made a new friend.  So... it is very problematic if whatever compounds were not going in the right places were flooding my body.  I don't know if it works for Aspergers, but it might be worth a shot!  🙂  After all, grass fed butter and all that (healthy fats) are the main thing with Nemechek protocol:  https://www.nemechekconsultativemedicine.com/blog/reversing-autism-2017/   Just look at the comments from those with Autistic kids at the bottom of this page.  Aspergers is actually no longer a DSM classification and it is now just all Autism (a sliding scale).  Anyway, to answer the original quetion.... No hype here!  I knew Dr. Nemechek was onto something when he pushed for Nordic Naturals fish oil.  Here's the ones I take, which have been invaluable!  https://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Naturals-Omega-3-Cognition-Support/dp/B002CQU55K/ref=sr_1_5_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1548867255&sr=1-5&keywords=nordic+naturals+fish+oil   I thought I could save $ by switching from 2 pills of this daily to 1 pill of Ultimate Omega (condensed form), but it didn't actually help as much.  I think that the fact that there are filler good oils is really beneficial!  That is part of the plan, too.  Good oils...  he ranks them.  But basically, he is a big fan of California extra virgin olive oil.  That brand is a safe one, because sometimes imported ones are not really true.  There are some other brands that are good & true, though.  Check it out.  By the way, taking extra virgin olive oil in a spoon is NASTY!  I thought it would be good.. but so bad.  You'll want to cook with it at no or low heat instead.  Rachel Ray uses it almost exclusively in her recipes.  There is one brand I can stand to take directly... https://www.amazon.com/Gaea-Virgin-Single-Origin-Bottle/dp/B01B6SP8X8   I like Macaroni Grill's olive oil, too.  I cannot stand to take the Lucini or California ones directly.  Those are supposedly highly rated.  Also!  Beware of the Gaea one you may find in Wal-Mart.  The Gae Fresh version is the better choice.  Anyway, my mom did a huge research project and she got this and I like it best.  Ordering mine now.  Dr. Nemechek says the omega 9s in olive oil apparently counter the bad oils we can get in our diet.  The best way I describe it is our brains are basically composed of water & fat.  Bad fats in > bad fats to the brain.  This is not the way that Dr. Nemechek explains it, though it kind of makes sense to me this way. 

Also, the Dental Diet (on sale for Kindle!!!! very good price... just $2.99!) I know talks about Vitamin-K.  Steven Lin also has some really cool programs (albeit pricey) on his website.  They discuss arch widening in kids through tongue exercieses and the like.  Super expensive, but maybe worth it as I know he has a money back guarantee.  But here's his book:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07681JGPL/ref=docs-os-doi_0   Per my understanding, Vit K is in animal fats that eat grass.  Example... I switched to Costco's green butter (from Ireland with grass-fed cows).  Hope that helps!

Since I edit my posts a lot, I realize it can be confusing.  Most are typos; however, I therefore am putting edits below:

Edit: A doctor who is an expert in hair loss said it would never grow back, but I could maintain and not lose more through use of Rogain.  Anyway, I will have to tell him!  🙂

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Posted : 30/01/2019 11:35 am
Zag
 Zag
Active Member

I want to restart 15mg of MK4, some d3 and magnesium when my Thorne K2 comes. Has anyone tried adding a additional calcium source like egg shells?

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Posted : 31/01/2019 10:54 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

darkindigo, sorry, but I don't believe that K2 fixed your male pattern baldness. Unless you are talking about some other type of vitamin deficiency hair loss.

 

That simply does not make any sense, since if that was true then there would be no bald men and nobody would be taking propecia, instead everyone would take K2.

 

I used K2 for many months now and have not noticed any changes at all.

That is why doing DEXA scans and blood tests is important.

 

For hair you would visit trichologist before and after treatment to see if hair density has improved.

 

Everything else is anecdotal evidence.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 07/02/2019 5:33 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Also, can anyone let me know ideal K2/D3/Magnesium proportion?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 07/02/2019 5:34 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Just ordered myself a bottle of K2 capsules and one of Calcium Citrate.

I also take 5000 IO of D3 daily.

Together with my highly nutrient-dense Carnivore diet, highly rich in bioavailable Vitamin A (cod liver oil is amazing for this), I'm setting myself up for success hopefully.

 

Any consensus on protein intake for bone remodelling? Since protein supports growth, a high protein diet should also be highly beneficial.
EDIT: Found this really interesting thread https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/wider-face-after-using-vitamin-k.4188/

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Posted : 11/06/2019 5:07 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

@Le_Fort_or_Bust I am not sure about ratios, but I do believe that if you increase your intake of one fat-soluble vitamin, you'd better increase the other too, to an extent.

Higher K2 drives the need for higher D3, which in turn drives the need for higher Magnesium intake.

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Posted : 21/10/2019 2:04 am
Jawanomics
Eminent Member

I 've took loads and done nothing. Had a chat with a bodybuilder and saw pics of him when like 22 and he was small....his hands are now acromegaly tier, i think tren and insulin cause this. Supposedly tren causes 100% of nutrient absorption, i think insulin works magic with igf-1.

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Posted : 21/10/2019 6:40 pm
Yusu
 Yusu
Eminent Member

Vitamin K helps with wider face but disrupts face remodelling?

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Posted : 26/12/2019 6:28 pm