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Used DNA appliance, not happy with results, need some advice

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JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 

I used DNA appliance but stopped due to teeth tipping. It is pretty bad on the top but only slightly on the bottom. Im not sure if I was turning it too fast or expanded too far. Now I have a bunch of questions.

How do you know if you have expanded too far? I was expanding for about a year and a half on the top. DNA appliance is the Y plate so there is now a gap between my canines and premolars. I believe that is expected however I also expanded my bottom teeth and now there are gaps there too. There was crowding but now I have expanded so much that no matter how you rearrange my teeth with braces/invisalign there will be small gaps because there is too much open space. I believe the teeth should fit correctly otherwise I have gone too far.

Worse is that I have recently been looking at older pictures from 2 years ago and prefer the way my faced looked. It is hard to say why but I know I looked better. So I have some finale questions-

Does the type arch shape effect the way the face looks? Maybe the type of arch the Y plate gave me had a negative effect.

Can teeth tipping have an effect of facial appearance?

If I were to allow everything to regress would it all go back to the way it was before including facial appearance or could it regress in a way that would make me look even worse?

Thanks for any help

 

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 7:07 am
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Posts: 938
 

Can you post pictures of your teeth.

Teeth tipping or flaring is a sign that you went too far.

The arch shape does effect the face in some areas especially around the lips.

Teeth tipping can effect the appearance of the face especially at the front.

It depends weather your teeth will go back or not and it also depends on weather your facial muscles size increased due to changes to the way you use your tongue after using the DNA appliance for so long.

 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 8:49 am
LastQuestion
(@lastquestion)
Posts: 47
 

When you say you used a DNA appliance, does that mean you went to a dentist who is certified is delivering the DNA appliance through Vivos biotechnologies, and followed all their protocols, and you expanded at the rate the dentist told you to, wore it for the 14-16 hours (not longer or shorter) and went to the monthly followups for adjustments to the appliance?

I ask, because I’ve seen a few people say they used the DNA appliance, but really just used a palatal expander they got from a local ortho, or ordered online from a lab, that is a y-split and then proceeded to expand and had teeth tipping and it ends up being unclear what happened and why. Interested, because I’m looking at DNA appliance for myself.

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 1:47 pm
darkindigo, test151515, Apollo and 3 people reacted
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 

I used DNA Appliance from a dentist. He had me turning every 4 days but wearing it around 16 hours. As the months went on I wasn’t getting 16 hours a day but still turning every 4 days which may have caused the tipping. Though it never felt very tight on the bottom or sore there is still tipping there too. 

I don’t really want to call my dentist out and give his name. He seems like a nice guy but but basically all I did was go there every 6-9 weeks for checkups and thats it. He would sometimes file the acrylic down but never measured anything. I went through 2 appliances for the top and bottom. I finished the first sets and got about 3/4 of the way through before stopping with the second. The dentist didn’t tell me to stop I just stopped myself. I will post some photos.

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 4:59 pm
greyham, test151515, Apollo and 3 people reacted
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 

Here are some photos – https://imgur.com/a/mnbZpcK it doesn’t look very wide on the top to me but everyones natural size is different. The reason I think the tipping may be from going too far is the amount of gaps that developed on the bottom.

I signed up and ordered smile direct a few weeks ago but I am already regretting it. Here’s what they plan to do-  https://imgur.com/a/6ny4FAv   Notice the gaps still on the bottom. Some of the tipping is corrected but they don’t move back molars and the right third molar is extremely tipped(though not shown in these pics). I am debating whether I should just allow the tipping and expansion to recede until I can fit the retainer I was wearing while I was waiting to get my 2nd appliances and then proceed with invisalign. It’s hard to measure the inter molar width but on my retainer after finished the first appliance I have 60mm for outer molar width, is that a decent size?

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 5:27 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Posts: 1681
 

You might be interested in Ronny Ead’s (  https://ronaldead.com/ ) similar side effects from using removable acrylic expanders (  https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/cautionary-palate-expander-case/# ). His tipping and gaps looked worse than yours. Like you, he abandoned that treatment. Then he sought out a different dentist for AGGA treatment, but they required him to allow most of the original expansion to relapse before installing AGGA. 

I think your gap between the canines and bicuspids is to be expected from the separation of the front part of the DNA expander. Have you asked your dentist or another orthodontist if there is a strategy to close that gap after finishing expansion? They might have better strategies than the smile direct plan. It also looks like you have a deep bite that the smile direct plan doesn’t do much to address.

Chewing exercises might help you upright some of your dental tipping, and mesial drift might close some of the gaps automatically. I wonder if a splint activator like myobrace might help upright the dental tipping while stabilizing at least some of your expansion. They are also suitable for deep bite cases. 

 

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 5:57 pm
JuliusO, darkindigo, JuliusO and 1 people reacted
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 

I read about Ron’s case about a month ago. I remember a commenter mentioning that pushing the front teeth forward may also push the maxilla backwards which has made me a bit paranoid that maybe the Y plate expander also does something like that. My dentist suggested that we push the back teeth forward to close the gap like they do with AGGA. Smile direct clearly pushes the front back. Since I am not happy with the facial changes it may be preferred to reverse what the DNA appliance has done. When I stopped expanding I also stopped going to see the dentist for check ups.

It has not been all bad, my breathing does seem better, I had a slightly droopy right eyelid that has gotten better, and strangely enough my singing voice has gotten better as I have been doing this. I play guitar and have sucked at singing but I’ve gotten much better as I have expanded(though still not very good lol).

 

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 6:28 pm
test151515, darkindigo, test151515 and 1 people reacted
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 

I know some have requested photos of facial changes but I’m not sure I want to upload that. It is hard to tell specifically why it changed for the worse but one thing I notice is that my face seemed to be fuller in a good way. I was working out when the older photos taken but haven’t the past year so I have lost some muscle/weight, nothing significant but there is still a chance that may have effected my face.

I am leaning towards trying to regress to where I can wear the retainer I got after I finished the first appliances. Though I worry about the potential effects regression will have on my appearance. The hope is that it will all go back to what it was but I don’t know if that is a guarantee especially if I try to speed up the regression by wearing the appliances but reversing the turns. If I let it all regress on its own I’m not sure my teeth will fit into the retainer. I think I need to guide them back to that alignment. 

Here are some pics of my first retainer and the aligner I recently got from smile direct  https://imgur.com/a/jwyN6cI  I included a measurement of the retainer. I don’t know how to get a correct measurement of the intermolar width so I measured from the outer sides. I want to know if that is a decent size palate. My tongue fits between the teeth fine so I would assume it is an okay size.

Thanks again for any help or advice, I’ve been stressing about this a lot lately not sure how to precede.

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 7:05 pm
bigdino1
(@bigdino1)
Posts: 36
 
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Can you post pictures of your teeth.

Teeth tipping or flaring is a sign that you went too far.

The arch shape does effect the face in some areas especially around the lips.

Teeth tipping can effect the appearance of the face especially at the front.

It depends weather your teeth will go back or not and it also depends on weather your facial muscles size increased due to changes to the way you use your tongue after using the DNA appliance for so long.

 

What is teeth tipping or flaring?

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 8:22 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Posts: 1028
 

@JuliusO, before you do anything, can you please be a guinnea pig for our curiosity?  Get a CBCT from a nearby orthodontist, if any are airway aware nearby.  See if the teeth are still in the bone.  LOL  I’m so dying to know.  I suspect they may have been pulled out of bone… but if they are still in bone, I will be amazed.  How old are you?

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 8:44 pm
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 

I’m 26. Why do you think they are out of the bone?

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 10:01 pm
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 

Okay, I decided on a plan. I am going to reverse much of the “progress” I’ve made, specifically the Y plate expansion. This is pretty depressing as I got the DNA appliance almost 2 years ago and was very excited about it.

I am suspicious of the Y plate and its effects and believe it may be the root of my issues. I notice most expanders don’t use a y plate and only widen the palate rather than push anything forward. This includes the homeoblock which the doctor who invented advertises for facial benefits. Neither does the ALF as far as I know. I always assumed my dentist would tell me eventually to stop the y plate expansion but he had me expanding it the entire time I was also widening the palate. 

Even if there is forward maxilla movement with the forward teeth tipping I don’t believe it is the correct or natural forward movement. It is supposed to be up and out rather than just forward. If I want to expand forward the best way to do it is with the tongue which, if it works, would move the whole maxilla forward and rather than push the teeth and create gaps.

I know it was suggested not to use the appliance to reverse expansion but I am going to wear it at night loosely and slowly turn the keys back to help guide the teeth back. I don’t want to lose all my expansion and breathing benefits. I plan to stop the regression once the molars are uprighted but cut off the y plate and allow the front to completely revert back to when I first started.

Hopefully this works and I’ll probably keep this thread updated occasionally about how it is going.

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 11:20 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Posts: 1028
 
Posted by: JuliusO

I’m 26. Why do you think they are out of the bone?

Not sure if they are or not… curious to find out… http://truthbutter.com/category/orthodontics/

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 11:24 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Posts: 1028
 
Posted by: JuliusO

Okay, I decided on a plan. I am going to reverse much of the “progress” I’ve made, specifically the Y plate expansion. This is pretty depressing as I got the DNA appliance almost 2 years ago and was very excited about it.

I am suspicious of the Y plate and its effects and believe it may be the root of my issues. I notice most expanders don’t use a y plate and only widen the palate rather than push anything forward. This includes the homeoblock which the doctor who invented advertises for facial benefits. Neither does the ALF as far as I know. I always assumed my dentist would tell me eventually to stop the y plate expansion but he had me expanding it the entire time I was also widening the palate. 

Even if there is forward maxilla movement with the forward teeth tipping I don’t believe it is the correct or natural forward movement. It is supposed to be up and out rather than just forward. If I want to expand forward the best way to do it is with the tongue which, if it works, would move the whole maxilla forward and rather than push the teeth and create gaps.

I know it was suggested not to use the appliance to reverse expansion by I am going to wear it at night loosely and slowly turn the keys back to help guide the teeth back. I don’t want to lose all my expansion and breathing benefits. I plan to stop the regression once the molars are uprighted but cut off the y plate and allow the front to completely revert back to when I first started.

Hopefully this works and I’ll probably keep this thread updated occasionally about how it is going.

In taking a double-take of your photos.. your Mew indicator line looks like it might be on the short side.  Have you measured it?  I think whatever you do, it’s good you’re staying on top of it.  DNA Y offers more forward movement of the maxilla than a Schwartz Y I’ve heard.  I’ll have to make a post of how to measure intermolar widths.

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 11:26 pm
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 
Posted by: darkindigo

 

In taking a double-take of your photos.. your Mew indicator line looks like it might be on the short side.  Have you measured it?  

I’m not up to date on all the terminology, what is Mew indicator line?

 
Posted : 15/01/2019 11:32 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Posts: 1028
 
Posted by: JuliusO
Posted by: darkindigo

 

In taking a double-take of your photos.. your Mew indicator line looks like it might be on the short side.  Have you measured it?  

I’m not up to date on all the terminology, what is Mew indicator line?

https://facefocused.com/articles/measure-your-facial-balance/
Also, you can see about measuring your intermolar width here: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/measuring-the-intermolar-width/#post-14559

 
Posted : 16/01/2019 3:46 am
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Posts: 16
Topic starter
 

My Mew indicator seems to be around 47mm. Intermolar width is hard to measure with the molars tipped but I used the aligner Smile Direct sent and it’s seems around 40mm.

 
Posted : 16/01/2019 9:17 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Posts: 1028
 
Posted by: JuliusO

My Mew indicator seems to be around 47mm. Intermolar width is hard to measure with the molars tipped but I used the aligner Smile Direct sent and it’s seems around 40mm.

I don’t know.  I cannot make any recommendations.  I’m sure you’ll work it out…. the more you know, though, the better.

If you want a professional opinion, here are the best orthos in United States area: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/3d-cbct-airway-orthodontists/#post-10386   Not sure about elsewhere.

Just remember.. it’s all super maliable and if you’re able to change around a lot as you go.  Trust your instincts.  They are good!

 
Posted : 16/01/2019 11:21 am
eternally12
(@eternally12)
Posts: 74
 

Just wondering if you’ve had any progress with the DNA appliance or if you changed appliances since this post? 

 
Posted : 15/03/2020 1:49 am
toomer
(@toomer)
Posts: 275
 
Posted by: @juliuso

I used DNA Appliance from a dentist. He had me turning every 4 days but wearing it around 16 hours. As the months went on I wasn’t getting 16 hours a day but still turning every 4 days which may have caused the tipping.

Sorry to dig up an old thread here, and while I certainly don’t know your case individually … this is almost 100% the cause of any tipping you may have experienced.  In fact, this is actually something that Vivos includes in its training materials for dentists (much of which can now be found on their channel on Vimeo) – they basically say “not wearing enough hours daily, but still expanding the device on a schedule as if they were.”

I mean, imagine if you tried to expand the appliance every day and only wore it for 8 hours every night.  Would be easy to imagine that damaging your teeth by overtaking how quickly it could adapt … right? If you do that, you basically just turn the DNA appliance into a regular Rapid Palatal Expander.

Well, 8 hours a day … but still turning on a schedule as if you were wearing 14-16 hours … ends up being the same.

I’m sorry this happened, and I hope you were able to correct things.  

 
Posted : 03/12/2020 7:06 pm
greyham, skinny7, greyham and 1 people reacted
BerthasKibs
(@berthaskibs)
Posts: 2
 

Hi there. Did you gum recession ever improve? I have a DNA expander and my gums are receding and it hurts! I’ve been wearing it for about 8 months now.


 

 
Posted : 29/01/2022 3:08 pm
BerthasKibs
(@berthaskibs)
Posts: 2
 

Julius, how much did you pay for the DNA Expander? And how did things end up working out with your alter plan (was it Smile Direct?)

Just curious! I paid $2,000 for my DNA Expander through my dentist.

 
Posted : 29/01/2022 3:13 pm
toomer
(@toomer)
Posts: 275
 
Posted by: @berthaskibs

Julius, how much did you pay for the DNA Expander? And how did things end up working out with your alter plan (was it Smile Direct?)

Just curious! I paid $2,000 for my DNA Expander through my dentist.

IMO, there’s no way that’s a Vivos DNA appliance that you got.  Even the company that makes it (Vivos) states in some of their financial filings that average price for full treatment (including periodic checkups) in the US is between $8k – 12k.

It’s possible your provider sold you one thing, but delivered something else.   If you post a photo, I can take a look (note: I am not affiliated with the company, but have studied these enough).  Also, is your provider listed in the Vivos “Find A Provider” section of their website, if you try to look them up?  Did you get a Vivos “Airway Intelligence Report” as a part of your treatment?

 
Posted : 29/01/2022 5:26 pm
MarylandIsSouthern
(@marylandissouthern)
Posts: 9
 

Wow. I know this is old but it’s the first time I’ve seen this case. In the period that I’d turn it once they turned it almost 4 times. Lmao no wonder so many people complain about failed case, hack dentists/orthos who have no idea what they’re doing. Also… didn’t even use a DNA appliance just some random expander. 

 
Posted : 07/02/2022 1:37 am

THE GREAT WORK