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Upward tongue pressure makes high arch worse?  

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Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member

Echoing a comment from a past thread...

Thoughts on whether upward tongue pressure in the area of the mid-palate ridge during mewing might exacerbate high palate and associated deformities of the nasal cavity?  Seems most of the tongue pressure should be forward and lateral.

This topic was modified 2 months ago by Buggy
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Posted : 09/02/2019 6:56 pm
Whistler and meri liked
sinned
(@sinned)
Trusted Member

No. The misconception people have is that it's the force directly from the tongue that remodels bone, but it's more to do with the balance of muscles in the face, at least what I believe and what makes most sense. Gif below for reference, the maxilla doesn't drop down and back, it comes up and back and the front of the maxilla follows. 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/new-theory-about-maxilla-rotation/#post-16079

tl; dr The palatoglossus muscle in response to the tongue back of the tongue raising up pulls the maxilla down.

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Posted : 21/02/2019 9:59 pm
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member

Hmm, it all seems rather speculative.  Most of the experts say tongue moves bone.  Did you create that GIF?  

In the interest of first do no harm, I'm not sure I should be screwing with hard mewing.  Last thing I need is worsening of jammed up nasal space, since this might be ruining my sleep and hence my life.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Buggy
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Posted : 23/02/2019 7:48 pm
Silver
(@silver)
Eminent Member
Posted by: sinned

No. The misconception people have is that it's the force directly from the tongue that remodels bone, but it's more to do with the balance of muscles in the face, at least what I believe and what makes most sense. Gif below for reference, the maxilla doesn't drop down and back, it comes up and back and the front of the maxilla follows. 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/new-theory-about-maxilla-rotation/#post-16079

tl; dr The palatoglossus muscle in response to the tongue back of the tongue raising up pulls the maxilla down.

Whoa, that's a good animation.

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Posted : 23/02/2019 10:51 pm
sinned
(@sinned)
Trusted Member

You're right it's speculative and there' no hard proof, I didn't make the gif btw, I found it somewhere on this forum. Also yes, do not screw with hard mewing, it is a bad idea. You can try "jawning" from the link I provided yourself, tbh it's also very speculative and I'm skeptical if it works but what's the worse that could happen? There is a way to safely mew that doesn't involve smashing your tongue on the roof of the mouth like a lot of people do, just fix your head posture, oral posture (lips together, teeth lightly together, tongue on the roof of the mouth, swallow correctly), tongue (tongue chewing, myofunctional exercises), and masseters (be wary if you have TMJ). People with recessed faces by default will have high vaulted palates and by default we should be mewing, the engagement of the posterior third is critical if you want to rotate the maxilla to not be downswung. If the tongue itself really moved bone why is it that our maxilla drops up and back rather than down and back? When you chin tuck the posterior third gets engaged, how and why does this mechanism that naturally occurs exist in the context of the tongue moves bone theory? Why would your body when adopting proper head posture push up against the back of the maxilla when it's already jammed up there? Last thing, it's not a question of what your tongue should do, push forward or push up, the natural side effect of recession is a high vaulted maxilla which gives the tongue a perfect place to push forward against.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHn6vWY25F0

Look here, the less recessed person indicated by their airways and wide palate also has a flatter roof. This is just speculation by I believe the body's natural correcting mechanism is where due to the constricting nature of a high vaulted palate and the nature of the tongue if you allow it to spread out, spreading out forces the tongue to push forward to give it more room as it would on the teeth to widen to palate. So there you go, you should engage of the back of the tongue to rotate your maxilla and also engage the front for forward growth (the latter is more speculative and reaching tbh, rotating the maxilla will bring it forwards as well so it's not as necessary to engage the front of the tongue).

https://ronaldead.com/blog/44-weeks-with-agga-last-photos-before-braces

Check this out, if you can tell the AGGA has a spring on either side and is pushing on the spot below the gums, at the front of the mouth (alveolar ridge), the same spot the front of the tongue rests at. You can also tell that his palate got longer, look at the difference at the near the alveolar ridge between the before and after, the second seems to have gotten longer and subsequently flatter. So yeah, basically my theory is that most people's palate are too constricting for the tongue laterally and sagitally, the tongue in it's natural state should be completely spread out over the roof of the mouth so it naturally pushes laterally against the teeth and forward against the alveolar ridge.

This post was modified 2 months ago by sinned
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Posted : 24/02/2019 12:44 am
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member

I've already incorporated the basic mewing practices, but have also been hard mewing a bit there and there.  As of a week ago, i have some pain in my right TMJ.  This could also be due to asymmetrical chewing over the past year from having tooth #15 extracted.

I dont feel any substantive difference in posterior tongue pressure on the palate with head forward vs chin tucked.  The only way I can get posterior third on palate is if I force it up there in an unnatural way.

Appreciate your thoughts, just not sure I follow some of it.  

BTW the guy in the pics with the AGGA... I think he looks worse in the after pics, overdeveloped and strange.

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Posted : 24/02/2019 5:54 pm
sinned
(@sinned)
Trusted Member

@buggy Regarding the AGGA patient, the AGGA appliance seems to achieve primarily forward growth. This helps with the airway and makes chin tucking/proper head posture much easier. In addition, in the after photo Ronald's incisors are tilted forwards and he's chin tucking as well, notice the posture difference between the two photos yet the maxilla hasn't really rotated much it's just come forward which is why it might look weird. The primary reason for AGGA is not looks but to get the maxilla forwards and out of the airway so proper posture is easier.

About tongue engagement when chin tucking, I don't mean to be pretentious but if you aren't feeling the tongue engaging when you chin tuck you're probably doing it wrong. You really have to push the head back and/or chin in to get the tongue engaged. Make sure your lips and teeth are touching and tongue is on the roof of the mouth, then push your head as far back/chin in as possible. I recommend trying to push your head further back rather than in as it engages the abs more but others recommend to adopt a more straight neck posture as it's less strain on the neck. You can also try swallowing repeatedly and/or sucking the saliva with your tongue (suction hold https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6h3-wsqLNA). Try doing this and then pulling your head back/chin tucking. I don't know what to say if that still doesn't help because without a suction hold if I pull my head back as far as possible then I really feel the back of the tongue. Just know if you're recessed you can't pull your head fully back and in due to the nature of a recessed maxilla getting into the airway.

edit: Let me clarify, "forceful" mewing isn't necessarily bad, just make sure it isn't super hard. You're goal should be to try to improve head posture as it naturally puts the tongue on the roof of the mouth. Proper swallowing and suction hold can help as well. Try to cheesy swallow or make an ng or nn sound.

This post was modified 2 months ago by sinned
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Posted : 25/02/2019 3:25 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Buggy

Echoing a comment from a past thread...

Thoughts on whether upward tongue pressure in the area of the mid-palate ridge during mewing might exacerbate high palate and associated deformities of the nasal cavity?  Seems most of the tongue pressure should be forward and lateral.

Dude!  You're right on!!! Here's the thing... not even plenty of so-called experts in airway understand this!!!! Literally... Viovs gets it.  Why the crap do they offer a treatment for mild/moderate OSA that literally doesn't require continuous use??????  It is because they are properly reshaping the arches.  Saggital NOT shaved down sucks!!!!  Saggital shaved down is their secret sauce!!!!!!!!!!  The secret is that they are doing a combination of things...  Yes RPE in kids can help bed wetting... or so they say.  What about AFTER treatment???? I would hope they're following these kids around.  Depressed teen had RPE and now depression is gone.  PubMed that.  Was that long-term?  Hyrax is a natural tongue depressor.  Who offers the best results for airway??? I thought it was Bill Hang.  But that is ONLY showing the airway of the throat!!!  He got ideas from Mews and attended Dr. John's recent birthday!  There is no reason to NOT do saggital! https://goo.gl/images/4sraRh  BUT!!! Here's the thing... as a friggen mother... as someone who has become obsessed with airway and someone HIGHLY perfectionistic AND detail oriented... who wants the creme de creme... I have to say that wireframe DNA... fixed Crozat with some acrylic for gum support/separation or even Alf if super young or alf with braces... slow!!!  You can reshape the palate.  But!  The whole friggen entire point of it is to get back what would have been normal.  To avoid nasal allergies... I spit the difference!  A tad of RPE (2 mm) and will do a little braces next.  You absolutely don't want to mess with precious nasal cargo area!!!!   I can PROMISE that.  A narrow palate is associated with a high palate.  That's the problem.  A high palate is this woman's problem: (why she's white like a ghost) https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/won-moon-patient-fixing-a-maxilla-jammed-up-high/#post-15324  Unfortunately, Dr. Mew has some useful info... such as tongue positioning over time can effect arches.  However!!! He is WAY wrong in pressure... because it can cause TMD and curve of spee and deep bite and a maxilla jammed up high jnto precious nasal area!  So... I would try to instead get pressure directed outwardly... not up!  Dr. Hang even talks on the problems with Mewing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ZRkXIBIpw&app=desktop

See what's going on here?

I need to share this info with the leaders in this space.  They are stumped sometimes.  Ex. kid gets RPE, behavior improves right after treatment begins.  After treatement, apneac events up!!  What the crap happened?!?!?!?  Well, hyrax is a natural tongue depressor.  It's gone...  Without CBCT we are blind!!!!  Did his maxilla get pushed back or up or what?!?!?!  When disarticulated by RPE, it can flop wherever it wants... even retrude!!!  Yes!!!! I have seen this with my own 2 eyes!!!  When I say to watch out for the nasal space... I am not making this [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up.

 

This post was modified 2 months ago by darkindigo
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Posted : 25/02/2019 4:39 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member

If the above doesn't scare you... I'll tell you what will...  I met these people)

1 - RPE in teen only in back... angled in face... narrow as crap nose. Messed up!!!! Anxiety/dopamine way high...  crappy job.  What happened?  Nasal assault.

2- Saggital NOT shaved down.  Bad breathing through one nostril to begin.  Fudge!  Holding sign at Walmart.

These people had great looking teeth after ortho, but MESSED UP NASAL AIRWAYS. Person 2 didn't brush teeth anyway, so what good was ortho then?

 

Yes... the airway behind the jaws matters.  The airway up top matters, too.  In fact, that's why ENTs do care about nasal breathing.  Only recently did we discover nitric oxide.  Any ortho out there who even thinks they understand airway would widen and protract.  Here's the deal, though... widening is not equal to widening is not equal to widening.  Nasal area matters!!!  I don't give a care if an ortho makes the teeth look great if health, wellbeing, productivity is in the toilet!

This post was modified 2 months ago 6 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 25/02/2019 4:51 am
sinned
(@sinned)
Trusted Member

@darkindigo Can you please stop making huge baseless claims and conflating the consequences of incorrectly posturing your teeth (ie clenching) and hard mewing with having the teeth in light contact and proper head posture/mewing? You always talk about how mewing is bad, how Dr. Mew is wrong, how teeth contact is harmful, then you're evidence for this is the fact that people experience issues and can run into issues with clenching and hard mewing, this is not a surprise to anyone. The people who wrote the articles and run this forum do not support clenching and hard mewing nor has Mike Mew, he has even recommended against doing these things. Even in the video you linked the guy talks about clenching specifically. Also, not to be rude, but can you clean up your writing? You go on tangents and long monologues that doesn't help the person asking the question at all. 

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Posted : 25/02/2019 6:14 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: sinned

@darkindigo Can you please stop making huge baseless claims and conflating the consequences of incorrectly posturing your teeth (ie clenching) and hard mewing with having the teeth in light contact and proper head posture/mewing? You always talk about how mewing is bad, how Dr. Mew is wrong, how teeth contact is harmful, then you're evidence for this is the fact that people experience issues and can run into issues with clenching and hard mewing, this is not a surprise to anyone. The people who wrote the articles and run this forum do not support clenching and hard mewing nor has Mike Mew, he has even recommended against doing these things. Even in the video you linked the guy talks about clenching specifically. Also, not to be rude, but can you clean up your writing? You go on tangents and long monologues that doesn't help the person asking the question at all. 

It was in the middle of the night for me with sick child.  Maybe not my most coherent post.  The video of Bill Hang talks about teeth in contact.  I am not conflating, but referencing this video.  My point is.. whether you are clenching or forcing your maxilla high another way... unless you widen at the same time... then how are you not going to encroach into nasal area?  Many here just plain don't have craneofacial dystrophy.  They want to look better and are sold hook, line, sinker to apply pressure upwards.  Then they end up with all sorts of problems.  My point is that Dr. Mew is wreaking havok and needs to reign in his nonsense.  If he had a a meanjngful disclaimer then that would make my job easier.  You have no idea the frustration of seeing all the continuous fallout of this stuff!  I know that in the next week or two another person will stumble into this forum from an asymmetric jaw caused by misapplied pressure.  So over it.

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Posted : 25/02/2019 11:00 am
Buggy liked
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: sinned

.....edit: Let me clarify, "forceful" mewing isn't necessarily bad, just make sure it isn't super hard. You're goal should be to try to improve head posture as it naturally puts the tongue on the roof of the mouth.

Death isn't necessarily bad either.  I could make a compelling theoretical argument that many things aren't necessarily bad.  Doesn't mean I'm going there when better options exist.  That is especially true when I have more than theory to go off.  Sure... if I truly had craneofacial dystrophy, I'd try Mewing.  I would keep in mind that its founder John Mew said it doesn't work on adults and he would know.  Have you seen his videos?  From the photos shared on this site, most here don't have it. (Note that I did try Mewing and am looking to undo its effects).  For TRUE craneofacial dystrophy, the acrylic DNA device does have proven results, FYI.  If I truly had craneofacial dystrophy I'd get that appliance or one like it.  I'd shave down the palate as it dropped and would never talk with it in (don't want to lengthen the philtrum).  I'd also look into shaving down the acrylic between the teeth after seeking advice from TMJ experts and I would not do it with a chin that is forward... only retrusive, as the lower jaw tends to slip forward or bounce all around when teeth cannot touch.  The only eay to move jaw up safely and slowly is to expand while doing it.  If tongue pressure is disbursed laterally and forward, I would attempt with my tongue.  Thing is... tongue is a muscle.  The whole point is for it to fit, right?  If the tongue is used to push side-to-side, it can grow that muscle.  But then it would need an even bigger home.  So, in essense you'd be chasing gains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26KBKhaieSE&t=144s

What I take away from this is that it is important to address the underlying root cause as part of any ortho treatment in order to mitigate relapse.  

This post was modified 2 months ago 13 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 25/02/2019 11:10 am
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member

@sinned:  I dont know that my technique is the problem.  I think it's more to do with anatomical particulars.  The irony is that we cannot see what we're doing with our tongue, thus it's a lot of guesswork, yet people talk in such definite terms.  I think each person has to experiment and see what is the natural order of things for their architecture.  Just because Mike Mew says suck back third up does not mean everyone can or should do that.

I guess main concern is still... forward vs lateral vs upward pressure for those with vaulted palate.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Buggy
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Posted : 25/02/2019 6:44 pm
sinned
(@sinned)
Trusted Member

True, we don't know exactly how the tongue works in different people with different palates. I suggest if you're worried about this to look in an AGGA appliance since it's proven to achieve forward growth which could help a high vaulted palate. Palate expansion could help it as well. AGGA is pretty expensive though I think. 

Here's my logic about high vaulted palates and mewing, almost anyone with recession has some degree of this. There's a strong indication that dropping the tongue, especially the posterior third, causes recession. So the underlying cause of recession is a tongue dropped from the roof of the mouth, to fix this you put the tongue back on the roof of the mouth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatoglossus_muscle

The role of the palatoglossus muscle and it's relation to the tongue. Essentially the tongue raises up and engages the palatoglossus muscle which is connected to the maxilla, for every action there's an opposite reaction. It's sort of counter-intuitive but I personally think the tongue's role isn't to push the maxilla but rather rotate it through it's correlating muscle the palatoglossus and also maintain the arches and keep the balance against the cheeks. Also just look at https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/hey-guys-mewing-doesnt-work-sarcasm-age-15-21-before-after-itt/. In the before pic he likely has a high vaulted palate since he's recessed. In the second pic he's clearly rotated his maxilla and got forward growth and from everything the user has said he just mews/chin tucks, even says he hard mews, which I don't support but I do support myofunctional exercises that strengthen the tongue which you could say is similar maybe. Just experiment I guess and be cautious/careful.

This post was modified 2 months ago by sinned
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Posted : 25/02/2019 10:29 pm
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member

@darkindigo:  Agree that Mew should put in more disclaimers.  I think he describes the problem well, but is maybe too insistent that his correction methods are universal and is overstating things.

Where are you seeing evidence of consistent fallout from mewing?

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Posted : 26/02/2019 11:40 am
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member
Posted by: sinned

True, we don't know exactly how the tongue works in different people with different palates. I suggest if you're worried about this to look in an AGGA appliance since it's proven to achieve forward growth which could help a high vaulted palate. Palate expansion could help it as well. AGGA is pretty expensive though I think. 

Here's my logic about high vaulted palates and mewing, almost anyone with recession has some degree of this. There's a strong indication that dropping the tongue, especially the posterior third, causes recession. So the underlying cause of recession is a tongue dropped from the roof of the mouth, to fix this you put the tongue back on the roof of the mouth.

I consulted with an ortho who wanted to fit me with a FAGGA appliance.  I wouldn't do any appliance unless I first established that the ortho really really knew his/her stuff and had a solid plan.  I think it was $8k for the treatment.

Yes tongue has to be put back on palate, but there is a big difference between just putting it there, versus applying specific pressure in one or more dimensions.  Also, during sleep presumably the tongue is just lightly contacting the palate, so thats 1/3 of the day where the palate is being influenced in a non-specific way.

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Posted : 26/02/2019 11:51 am
Bobinsky__
(@bobinsky__)
New Member

What to do if by pushing against hard palate it became deeper than it was before and now i feel that my nose is blocked HELP

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Posted : 07/03/2019 10:43 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

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