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Upper Paleolithic bust: good facial development?  

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EddieMoney
Reputable Member

This Cro Magnid bust to me seems like the type of facial development Mike Mew proposes when identifying the more forward grown skulls of the Paleolithic peoples.

 

From looking at his facial development this proposed dude looks very healthy in development. Any cfd would be manifested in asymmetry (and that may be an artistic depiction within human ability). Facially his development looks ideal. Let's explore why then.

The distance from his lips to his nose indicates a strongly projected and upwardly rotated maxilla. This is different from bimax because his nasolabial angle is not too acute.

His mandible while not large is projecting decently. This is because he has a sharp gonial angle and despite having a smaller chin, his maxillary position makes his jaw well defined. Contrast this with people with prognathism whose lower jaw looks too large for their face even if small. This is because posture is more important to upright your jaw. 

His forehead is very flat and straight . This again leads to proper posture hypothesis because as seen in people like @Progress, posture uprights the whole skull.

While overall neotenous in profile, the front view shows robust proportions in that the lower third outsize every other third. This isn't even because his ramus is very long but more so because his midface is short due to the ideal maxillary position. This makes the frontal proportions masculine despite a more neotenous side profile (straight and flat with projecting lips and small nose). This man has a good balance of youth and age compared to men of today whom mostly just look old and tired.

Eyes set deeply depiste a weaker brow projection. This means the maxilla is upwardly rotated so the orbits are more distal from the frontal bone. Contrast this with downward grown faces which have eyes that are too projecting and with scleral show, weak support, etc. 

Overall this guy reminds me of Mike Mew's proposed Paleolithic profile. This would be an 18 year old male but I find strong similarities.

Look at the weakly projecting nose and the strong lip advancement. Notice the orthognathic profile common in both. Notice how even without a very pointed chin, the profile is still very strong. Notice how the lips project well but there is no bimax protrusion nor a very acute nasolabial angle. I say overall great development. 

What do you guys think?

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Posted : 04/07/2018 1:15 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

This is a good example of why good jaw development doesn't always equal good looks.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 04/07/2018 5:35 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

This is a good example of why good jaw development doesn't always equal good looks

I agree but still think the theoretical dude wouldn't have problems dating even if he isn't everyone's cup of tea. 

Kinda reminds me of a young David Bowie. The way I see it his low hairline and full lips are never negatives for a man to have. 

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Posted : 04/07/2018 8:37 am
tgw
 tgw
Active Member

That bust has alveolar prognathism.

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Posted : 04/07/2018 1:03 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: tgw

That bust has alveolar prognathism.

Full lips =/= alveolar prognathism 

When prognathism is present, the angle of the face changes. The profile is still straight despite the very projecting lips. The nasolabial angle by itself isn't indicative of such a condition and neither is the rest of the face. 

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Posted : 04/07/2018 1:32 pm
tgw
 tgw
Active Member

The bust has full lips AND alveolar prognathism. It's teeth protrude and flare outwards. Also, the maxilla is more than just the teeth.

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Posted : 04/07/2018 2:11 pm
tgw
 tgw
Active Member

People with flatter teeth have philtrums that are more vertical while people with more protrusive teeth have philtrums that are angled outward. This is easier to see when you look at mouths of women who get lip fillers. On a related note, older people tend to have more vertical philtrums because they lose teeth and their mouths start angling inwards.

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Posted : 04/07/2018 2:25 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: tgw

People with flatter teeth have philtrums that are more vertical while people with more protrusive teeth have philtrums that are angled outward. This is easier to see when you look at mouths of women who get lip fillers. On a related note, older people tend to have more vertical philtrums because they lose teeth and their mouths start angling inwards.

I think you may be right. My maxilla has come up and out quite a bit over the years, but it still looks vertical from the side, and my teeth in the front have tipped out only very slightly (probably not even 0.5mm). Braces made my teeth flat.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 04/07/2018 3:03 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: tgw

People with flatter teeth have philtrums that are more vertical while people with more protrusive teeth have philtrums that are angled outward. This is easier to see when you look at mouths of women who get lip fillers. On a related note, older people tend to have more vertical philtrums because they lose teeth and their mouths start angling inwards.

Vertical philtrums are seldom if ever seen on people with lips so full of girth. Also, megadont people will have more lip eversion simply because of the fact a slight proclination will push more soft tissue out. 

These factors alone can account for that without any sort of maloclussion being present or a facial angle that deviates from the norm. I have never seen anyone with such lip girth have a vertical philtrums anyway.

My own upper lip isn't vertical and I am recessed by 12mm. And I am retrognathous. Lips don't tell the whole story and in fact tell a very small part of the story. 

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Posted : 04/07/2018 4:20 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: tgw

People with flatter teeth have philtrums that are more vertical while people with more protrusive teeth have philtrums that are angled outward. This is easier to see when you look at mouths of women who get lip fillers. On a related note, older people tend to have more vertical philtrums because they lose teeth and their mouths start angling inwards.

I think you may be right. My maxilla has come up and out quite a bit over the years, but it still looks vertical from the side, and my teeth in the front have tipped out only very slightly (probably not even 0.5mm). Braces made my teeth flat.

See my reply above. Lips are hardly indicative of prognathism. There are so many factors that will cause lips to flare out aside from prognathism . My own lips flared out MORE than they do now prior to expansion and my incisors were severely retroclined. For me the soft tissue of my lips is very thick. Thick enough to cause puffy lips even with a retrognathous bite. Don't underestimate soft tissue. 

My point about the lips of the bust is that they realistically are not indicative of anything. Some people have vertical philtrums simply because their nasal sill and nasion push the soft tissue out in front of the microdont teeth to where the skin itself is far away from the bite. 

Note. It is possible to have a forward maxilla and a vertical philtrum. I am aware of this. But this bust having lips of such girth should serve as no indicator that prognathism is present. Many factors could account for the lip placement AND if you google alveolar prognathism you won't see faces with development like this either. Actual prognathism affects the whole face, not just the teeth.  

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Posted : 04/07/2018 4:29 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@EddieMoney, I think a good example to consider is Ronnie at Migraine Hacks after use of the AGGA as seen here:  https://www.migrainehacks.com/new-blog-1/2018/5/12/26-week-agga-x-rays

Note his philtrum angle and significant teeth tipping. Seems to be what's going on with the bust as well. You can also observe this type of philtrum angle on infants and toddlers, even if their teeth tip inwards from excessive pacifier/bottle etc use, I'm guessing that is owing to soft tissue.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 04/07/2018 6:05 pm
tgw
 tgw
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: tgw

People with flatter teeth have philtrums that are more vertical while people with more protrusive teeth have philtrums that are angled outward. This is easier to see when you look at mouths of women who get lip fillers. On a related note, older people tend to have more vertical philtrums because they lose teeth and their mouths start angling inwards.

Vertical philtrums are seldom if ever seen on people with lips so full of girth. Also, megadont people will have more lip eversion simply because of the fact a slight proclination will push more soft tissue out. 

These factors alone can account for that without any sort of maloclussion being present or a facial angle that deviates from the norm. I have never seen anyone with such lip girth have a vertical philtrums anyway.

My own upper lip isn't vertical and I am recessed by 12mm. And I am retrognathous. Lips don't tell the whole story and in fact tell a very small part of the story. 

Lip thickness has nothing to do with the philtrum and tooth size has nothing to do with it either. Chimps have thin lips and teeth that flare outward.  That bust has incisors and canines that flare out.

Also you should know that the soft tissue on a reconstructed skull is not accurate. See Gail Mathews and Kennewick Man as examples.

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Posted : 04/07/2018 8:23 pm
Achilles1
Trusted Member

So does this guy have teeth flaring lol? 

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Posted : 05/07/2018 1:52 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

@EddieMoney, I think a good example to consider is Ronnie at Migraine Hacks after use of the AGGA as seen here:  https://www.migrainehacks.com/new-blog-1/2018/5/12/26-week-agga-x-rays

Note his philtrum angle and significant teeth tipping. Seems to be what's going on with the bust as well. You can also observe this type of philtrum angle on infants and toddlers, even if their teeth tip inwards from excessive pacifier/bottle etc use, I'm guessing that is owing to soft tissue.

That is what I am saying. Lip positioning is not a good way to determine maxillary positioning. Lips can be flared/sunken with either maxillary position. 

In the FAGGA thread I was the biggest critic of the device because it was clear that teeth flaring was happening. So even I will admit that tooth proclining isn't ideal if the whole maxilla isn't moved forward. That is just bimax.

However, in the case of this bust the lips and the nasolabial angle don't concern me because judging by the other factors present of ideal facial development, prognathism isn't the issue here.

Like I said my own lips puff out equally to this statue and I have retrognathism. My canines and incisors are tipped lingually.  

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Posted : 05/07/2018 9:14 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Achilles1

So does this guy have teeth flaring lol? 

Good example. This dude actually has had braces and extractions so his maxilla is more than likely far from ideal and his teeth are most likely retroclined (braces do this). His lips still puff out. Never underestimate the power of soft tissue and personal neoteny. The fact his lips are so puffy and feminine is no indicator to alveolar prognathism. 

Look at that. Teeth tipped lingually and still manages to have a feminine mouth area with pouty lips. It's called being babyfaced. With the other neotenous features present in the bust (look at his flat forehead and wide open eyes) I see no reason for his lips to be a result of prognathism. 

I was looking at some baby pics of me and I realized I have almost the same exact lip puffiness I did back then. And I have had my incisors severely retroclined from ortho. Sometimes features are present entirely because of soft tissue and babyfaced qualities that many people retain. It just is that these features aren't very common on full grown adult males. This is probably one of the reasons Barrett was picked as a model (aside from other factors). 

Truth be told I don't think this bust has alveolar prognathism. Instead I think the mandible is small. People with smaller mandibles will always have fuller lips. This is why women tend to retain them into older age than men even with losing soft tissue support. This is because a small mandible allows the soft tissue around the mentolabial fold to bend more, thus giving a bigger pout. 

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Posted : 05/07/2018 9:29 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Since Kennewick man was mentioned, let us examine the facial development here

Long ramus, maxilla very forward, great zygo projection, and good chin development. The forehead however is more sloping and nowhere near as flat as that of the bust above. I guess this skull belonged to either an older man, or just someone with a more gerontomorphic facial structure. Maxillary positioning is still ideal af though lol. And that palate width seems very developed if you look at Kennewick man from the front. Lips here are not pouty either which is another reason I say the structure of this skull is a lot less neotenous.  

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Posted : 05/07/2018 9:58 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Of course if you crane your head forward like the first model, the philtrum will appear tilted rather than vertical: try it in the mirror yourself (also let's not get confused by the upper lip, any outward and upward flaring occurring there, and the philtrum, either). As well, Barrett's philtrum is very short and vertical, and yes his lips are feminine, pouty, etc but this is unrelated to his philtrum angle.

edit: Model linked to below also has a vertical philtrum, do not get thrown off by the lips and the angle he's holding his head

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 05/07/2018 12:34 pm
Slinky
Trusted Member

Sergio Carvajal has one of the most aesthetically pleasing profiles I've seen https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnlLHE2rIGYrlGgTai6owZfS9kI1PcT_yd-Wry7cbNS7MdzsTJ

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Posted : 05/07/2018 12:35 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Of course if you crane your head forward like the first model, the philtrum will appear tilted rather than vertical: try it in the mirror yourself (also let's not get confused by the upper lip, any outward and upward flaring occurring there, and the philtrum, either). As well, Barrett's philtrum is very short and vertical, and yes his lips are feminine, pouty, etc but this is unrelated to his philtrum angle.

edit: Model linked to below also has a vertical philtrum, do not get thrown off by the lips and the angle he's holding his head

I disagree. Barrett has an acute nasolabial angle and his upper lip is inclined forward and far from vertical even when his forehead is ahead of his chin as seen down here:

Sergio Carvajal even with forward head positioning can clearly be seen as having a vertical philtrum. Best way to tell if the philtrum is vertical is the nasolabial angle. And Barrett's NL angle is more acute than of Carvajal. Sergio has a nasolabial angle that is either 90 or approaches 90. Barrett clearly has it less than that indicating his philtrum is not vertical like that of Carvajal. 

Again. More proof that you can have no prognathism and still have lips that are pouty and heavily everted. Nasolabial angle isn't a good way to determine incisor angle anyway and you alluded to this when you mentioned babies having puffy lips and still with retroclined incisors. It is soft tissue based and tells us nothing about the maxilla itself. 

If adults maintain this style of profile it just means they are retaining a feature of youth. Nothing more nothing less. 

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Posted : 05/07/2018 12:45 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@EddieMoney Of course his upper lip isn't vertical... but again, this is unrelated to the angle/position of his philtrum, which is vertical:
A very short and vertical philtrum.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 05/07/2018 12:56 pm
Slinky
Trusted Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

@EddieMoney Of course his upper lip isn't vertical... but again, this is unrelated to the angle/position of his philtrum, which is vertical:
A very short and vertical philtrum.

This guy looks very feminine. I guess males look better with a flatter philtrum

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Posted : 05/07/2018 1:11 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

@EddieMoney Of course his upper lip isn't vertical... but again, this is unrelated to the angle/position of his philtrum, which is vertical:
A very short and vertical philtrum.

What do you mean vertical philtrum? The philtrum is part of the upper lip. How can it he vertical when the lip isn't? I have a hard time understanding the idea you are trying to convey here

Anyway Jordan Barrett is still a good example of how you can not have proclined incisors and still have pouty lips. Goes to show that whatever the bust was based on need not be a skull with proclined incisors as it was implied the bust had alveolar prognathism 

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Posted : 05/07/2018 1:50 pm
Couda
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: tgw

That bust has alveolar prognathism.

Full lips =/= alveolar prognathism 

When prognathism is present, the angle of the face changes. The profile is still straight despite the very projecting lips. The nasolabial angle by itself isn't indicative of such a condition and neither is the rest of the face. 

And protruding mouth area =/= maxilla.
This bust is a good example of a smashed in nose & alveolar prognathism. He has the tongue pushing forwards, which also is common for africans to do. 

My dad has this "smashed in nose look" and only his tongue tip is touching the palate so I know that a "smashed in nose look" is not ideal. My case would have been more severe if I didnt get upper teeth extractions. 

I saw a woman with outstanding maxillary development and her face was basically the opposite of this bust. Protruding midface which includes good eye support and not a smashed in nose. A bit like kennevick man's profile but a straight nose. 

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Posted : 05/07/2018 1:55 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Couda
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: tgw

That bust has alveolar prognathism.

Full lips =/= alveolar prognathism 

When prognathism is present, the angle of the face changes. The profile is still straight despite the very projecting lips. The nasolabial angle by itself isn't indicative of such a condition and neither is the rest of the face. 

And protruding mouth area =/= maxilla.
This bust is a good example of a smashed in nose & alveolar prognathism. He has the tongue pushing forwards, which also is common for africans to do. 

My dad has this "smashed in nose look" and only his tongue tip is touching the palate so I know that a "smashed in nose look" is not ideal. My case would have been more severe if I didnt get upper teeth extractions. 

I saw a woman with outstanding maxillary development and her face was basically the opposite of this bust. Protruding midface which includes good eye support and not a smashed in nose. A bit like kennevick man's profile but a straight nose. 

I didn't think the bust had a good maxilla because of protruding lips either. I have said many times that lips being out far has nothing to do with maxilla at all. My own repeated posts about the lack of FAGGA success stories (due to all after pics having just flared lips and nothing else) should be a testament to how much I don't believe lip placement is proof of maxillary development. 

No, I think the bust has good development simply because all aspects are there. Something like pouty lips is completely inconsequential to good development. I have pouty lips and my maxilla is very downward grown. But unlike this bust I have a high gonial angle, weak eye support, a sloping forehead, and a saggy submental area.

Regarding Africans, there is no reason to believe their "prognathism" is any form of cfd. At least in those with good development. I say this because from a skeletal standpoint West Africans have some of the smallest mandibles and largest teeth compared to other people around the world. In addition to this their browbone is nonexistent causing their midface to appear more ahead of their jaw. But this is simply a climactic adaptation that has nothing to do with their maxilla either. They simply have larger teeth, smaller mandibles, and a rounded forehead which gives them a neotenic side profile compared to many Europeans (especially Northern) whom have smaller teeth and a more projecting chin. These factors have nothing to do with how their tongue placement is because a West African with a forward maxilla would still have a very different profile than an European simply because the shape of the skull is entirely different. These features are simply a result of living in hot climates. Peoples of other non African nations have similar structure. It isn't a form of CFD though. 

But do you have a source for Africans making it a common practice to push the tongue forward? As far as I know I haven't ever heard this but would be interested in knowing. 

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Posted : 05/07/2018 2:14 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Also @Couda I doubt you needed upper extractions to fix your lip flaring. Expansion better fits the teeth to the maxilla but I think you probably already knew that. Orthodontists need to learn that less teeth is never the solution 

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Posted : 05/07/2018 2:17 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies

@EddieMoney Of course his upper lip isn't vertical... but again, this is unrelated to the angle/position of his philtrum, which is vertical:
A very short and vertical philtrum.

What do you mean vertical philtrum? The philtrum is part of the upper lip. How can it he vertical when the lip isn't? I have a hard time understanding the idea you are trying to convey here

Anyway Jordan Barrett is still a good example of how you can not have proclined incisors and still have pouty lips. Goes to show that whatever the bust was based on need not be a skull with proclined incisors as it was implied the bust had alveolar prognathism 

Okay, this is where the confusion lies, it seems. My understanding was that the philtrum was a separate entity from the upper lip, and didn't encompass even the tubercle of the upper lip, but stopped before it. But I have now found that the upper lip technically encompasses even the entire philtrum. Sorry about the confusion!

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 05/07/2018 2:26 pm
Achilles1
Trusted Member

What is everyone's obsession with the philtrum anyway? Never understood it

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Posted : 05/07/2018 11:47 pm
Couda
Eminent Member

But do you have a source for Africans making it a common practice to push the tongue forward? As far as I know I haven't ever heard this but would be interested in knowing. 

Mew says that africans tend to cope with a small airway by pushing forwards with the tongue.
He also says that with prognathism the lips get thicker in an attempt to hold the teeth back in.

Causes of Forward Inclination of Upper & Lower Teeth & Jaws, Bimaxillary Protrusion by Dr Mike Mew

So i interpret it as africans are also more inclined to push forwards(than upwards) even when not coping.

Also @Couda I doubt you needed upper extractions to fix your lip flaring. Expansion better fits the teeth to the maxilla but I think you probably already knew that. Orthodontists need to learn that less teeth is never the solution 

Yeah, i was 14 at the time and was dumb to not question their theory "evolution has made jaws smaller".
Its easier for me to cope with things if i accept the fact that im just very dumb sometimes.

But even if I got expansion I probably wouldn't have discovered mewing and would continue to mouth breathe. An unhappy result after braces was the one thing that made me discover mewing. I was not consistent with the elastics so I still have upper teeth prognathism. So i googled about expansion and sometimes this dude Mike Mew came up. I almost got to the point of asking for elastics again.

It feels good that with mewing, i will look better in the future xD this is like the opposite of aging.

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Posted : 06/07/2018 2:59 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Couda

But do you have a source for Africans making it a common practice to push the tongue forward? As far as I know I haven't ever heard this but would be interested in knowing. 

Mew says that africans tend to cope with a small airway by pushing forwards with the tongue.
He also says that with prognathism the lips get thicker in an attempt to hold the teeth back in.

Causes of Forward Inclination of Upper & Lower Teeth & Jaws, Bimaxillary Protrusion by Dr Mike Mew

So i interpret it as africans are also more inclined to push forwards(than upwards) even when not coping.

Also @Couda I doubt you needed upper extractions to fix your lip flaring. Expansion better fits the teeth to the maxilla but I think you probably already knew that. Orthodontists need to learn that less teeth is never the solution 

Yeah, i was 14 at the time and was dumb to not question their theory "evolution has made jaws smaller".
Its easier for me to cope with things if i accept the fact that im just very dumb sometimes.

But even if I got expansion I probably wouldn't have discovered mewing and would continue to mouth breathe. An unhappy result after braces was the one thing that made me discover mewing. I was not consistent with the elastics so I still have upper teeth prognathism. So i googled about expansion and sometimes this dude Mike Mew came up. I almost got to the point of asking for elastics again.

It feels good that with mewing, i will look better in the future xD this is like the opposite of aging.

But I am talking about even in cases where Africans don't have bimax. It's not like it is seen in all Africans or descendants. Even those with ideal development still have pouty lips with an orthognathic profile. We are all born pouty lips after all and our nasolabial angle is acute when we are infants. 

Africans maintaining this protrusion of the lips isn't a sign of unideal development but rather a neoteny present in that specific population. People across the globe who live in temperate to hot climates maintain full lips throughout life. 

My own lips are puffy and full and I still have retroclined incisors and canines. In my case it has nothing to do with tooth placement but rather with the fact I have full lips in my family on all people, even those with ideal development. 

The reason Africans also have fuller lips is to support the megadont dentition. Europeans having smaller teeth don't require lips as full because they don't need to support a mouth with large teeth. It isn't simply a case of having bimax. Even in people of West African descent with normal incisor inclination and orthognathic faces the lips remain full as they do in peoples of other hot climates. 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyW6XxLJgvBoqThlB11Idnat_rh5zwG8xgoNfSBB1J-es5cQQL

In the pic above the man has a flat profile even with a larger mandible and still has everted lips with an acute nasolabial angle. Bimax is not present yet the angle is acute and the lips pout. Megadont dentition + neoteny = full lips. 

 

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Posted : 06/07/2018 3:28 pm