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thoughts on fasting to increase rates of facial development via enhanced hgh production?  

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krollic
(@krollic)
Estimable Member

as i'm sure many of you here know, fasting i.e not eating for longer periods of time has a very substantial boost in human growth hormone secretion when you are sleeping. it's something like a 1300-2000% increase for men, especially if you practice high intensity training while in a fasted state. 

how much do you guys think boosting HGH levels could help in our facial development journey i.e bone growth? 

it's clear that our ancient ancestors often times fasted since food could be hard to come by and it had very powerful health benefits. many athletes and bodybuilders practice fasting as a result.

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Posted : 13/10/2018 9:28 pm EddieMoney liked
Varbrah
(@varbrah)
Trusted Member

Increasing HGH is undoubtedly helpful. It increases bone turnover leading to accelerated skeletal remodeling. However, you also need increased IGF-1 in the presence of HGH, and fasting results in decreased IGF-1 levels.

Your best bet is to look towards ghrelin mimetics like ibutamoren/MK-677 or GHRH/GHRPs.

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Posted : 13/10/2018 10:36 pm
krollic
(@krollic)
Estimable Member

igf1 is foreign to me. do you have experience w/ it? any links you can throw me?  thanks

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Posted : 13/10/2018 11:17 pm
Varbrah
(@varbrah)
Trusted Member

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC151128/

Highly recommend you read the study anyway, but to summarize, IGF-1 production is primarily mediated by GH production. Typically high HGH results in a higher production of IGF-1 in the liver.

As far as what IGF-1 does, this study goes into it a bit, but I would also recommend googling around for more literature. Wikipedia is easy to digest and should give you a good amount of info.

As to my point, fasting breaks this relationship down to a large degree, so while your GH is high and you may accelerate bone remodeling to a small degree, you are not getting the benefit of an arguably more critical hormone for ACTUAL bone growth. The two are synergystic in any case, and you want high values for both for best results.

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Posted : 14/10/2018 12:23 am
Halti.H
(@halti-h)
Active Member
Posted by: varbrah

Increasing HGH is undoubtedly helpful. It increases bone turnover leading to accelerated skeletal remodeling. However, you also need increased IGF-1 in the presence of HGH, and fasting results in decreased IGF-1 levels.

Your best bet is to look towards ghrelin mimetics like ibutamoren/MK-677 or GHRH/GHRPs.

This is what has been confusing me. So you don't think fasting is beneficial for bone remodeling because of the decrease in IGF-1? What about fasting while taking MK-677, could that be beneficial? You would get a huge boost in HGH and if you take MK-677 your IGF-1 levels should be trough the roof even if you do intermittent fasting right?

Also, I've read that a ketogenic diet also boosts HGH but lowers IGF-1. On the other hand it improves insulin resistance which I've read can be caused by MK-677. Do you think combining a keto diet with MK-677 would be a good idea to combat insulin resistance or would it make the MK-677 useless because of the drop in IGF-1 due to the ketogenic diet?

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Posted : 14/10/2018 2:09 am
Varbrah
(@varbrah)
Trusted Member

@Halti.H

Many of the effects of GH are mediated via IGF-1. GH by itself DOES have some IGF-independent, direct effects on bone metabolism, namely increasing bone resorption/turnover. By itself, this is helpful for bone remodeling, but bone remodeling is just one piece of the puzzle, and the less important piece at that. IGF-1 stimulates bone GROWTH, which is crucial when you are attempting to, for example, displace the maxilla forwards and up. The CCW maxillary rotation we are after is largely NOT a function of bone remodeling, but of osseous growth at the perimaxillary sutures, this is where IGF-1 comes in.

I would say that the effect probably comes out to a net neutral. Fasting and the accompanying GH spike are part of a natural bio-regulatory response that exists to preserve lean tissue (anti-catabolism) during periods of starvation, as well as allowing the body to heal and repair existing structures, rather than promoting an anabolic response in the absence of calories (which wouldn't make any sense lol).

Insulin resistance with MK-677 happens as a result of IGF-1 (note that it's called insulin-like growth factor 1) which binds to the insulin receptor at about 10% of the strength of actual insulin. It can happen, but it's not something I'd worry too much about unless your eating a standard American diet. But yes, keto (great [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] diet by the way  😀 I've been on it for 6 months now) is fine with MK-677 as well as GH peptides and will not make them useless.

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Posted : 14/10/2018 4:41 am scerif liked
Halti.H
(@halti-h)
Active Member

@varbrah "I would say that the effect probably comes out to a net neutral. Fasting and the accompanying GH spike are part of a natural bio-regulatory response that exists to preserve lean tissue (anti-catabolism) during periods of starvation, as well as allowing the body to heal and repair existing structures, rather than promoting an anabolic response in the absence of calories (which wouldn't make any sense lol)."

Yeah that sounds logical, I was just wondering if taking MK-677 could be a way to kinda of "hack the system" by still keeping the growth promoting IGF-1 levels high even when fasting and simultaneously getting the HGH boost from the fasting?

"Insulin resistance with MK-677 happens as a result of IGF-1 (note that it's called insulin-like growth factor 1) which binds to the insulin receptor at about 10% of the strength of actual insulin. It can happen, but it's not something I'd worry too much about unless your eating a standard American diet. But yes, keto (great [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] diet by the way  😀 I've been on it for 6 months now) is fine with MK-677 as well as GH peptides and will not make them useless."

Yeah, keto has a lot of awesome health benefits for sure. Are you sure that keto is an ideal diet for bone remodeling/growth though? Everything that I've read says that a ketogenic diet lowers your IGF-1 levels just like fasting does :/. That's bad when it comes to changing our facial structure no matter how you slice it right? Of course MK-677 would help raise the IGF-1 levels on a keto diet but wouldn't it be even more beneficial to eat a non keto diet to boost the IGF-1 levels even more? 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Halti.H
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Posted : 14/10/2018 7:51 am
sinned
(@sinned)
Eminent Member

I've posted this before in a previous thread, here it is again

 

Growth hormone increase during fasting means nothing. It increases to preserve lean muscle mass and for the breakdown of fat. It's a common myth that the growth hormone increase in fasting has an anabolic effect; it's understandable as growth hormone is generally anabolic but it's when that growth hormone signals the release of IGF-1 in the liver is it actually anabolic. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11081151

"We report a case of acromegaly with relatively low GH secretion in a patient with GH-secreting pituitary macroadenoma. The 44-year-old male patient presented with left temporal hemianopsia and characteristic acromegalic face, but had relatively low baseline and post-glucose GH levels. IGF-1 and IGFBP-1 were elevated."

Fasting decreases IGF-1, there is no growing during fasting.

 

 

tl; dr Fasting has absolutely no effect on bone growth

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Posted : 14/10/2018 5:20 pm scerif liked
krollic
(@krollic)
Estimable Member

i thought the idea was to boost hgh by fasting which increases igf1 so when you do end up eating it is more effective when it comes to growth

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Posted : 14/10/2018 10:47 pm
50Cent
(@50cent)
New Member
Posted by: sinned

I've posted this before in a previous thread, here it is again

 

Growth hormone increase during fasting means nothing. It increases to preserve lean muscle mass and for the breakdown of fat. It's a common myth that the growth hormone increase in fasting has an anabolic effect; it's understandable as growth hormone is generally anabolic but it's when that growth hormone signals the release of IGF-1 in the liver is it actually anabolic. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11081151

"We report a case of acromegaly with relatively low GH secretion in a patient with GH-secreting pituitary macroadenoma. The 44-year-old male patient presented with left temporal hemianopsia and characteristic acromegalic face, but had relatively low baseline and post-glucose GH levels. IGF-1 and IGFBP-1 were elevated."

Fasting decreases IGF-1, there is no growing during fasting.

 

 

tl; dr Fasting has absolutely no effect on bone growth

You can also debunk this by analyzing Muslims. They fast a whole month each year and an upwards of 10+ hours daily. If this theory were proven to be true, all Muslims should have great/better bones but that is simply not the case.

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Posted : 14/10/2018 10:59 pm
Varbrah
(@varbrah)
Trusted Member

@krollic A few problems with this: 1) GH release is pulsatile in nature, meaning that you'll have a few large spikes daily, which in the absence of energy, won't release IGF-1, so even if you were to hook yourself up to a machine, monitor your levels and time it just right... 2) digestion and energy production takes so long that your GH spike would've subsided by the time the energy from food becomes bioavailable , and the onset of digestion would've blunted any further GH spikes within about 30 minutes and up to 3-4 hours afterwards.

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Posted : 14/10/2018 11:04 pm
krollic
(@krollic)
Estimable Member

I don't think that's really an argument. Bones are influenced by muscles and it's not like babies fast and most of time its seems like bad oral posture is a habit from early years. @50cent

This post was modified 2 months ago by krollic
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Posted : 14/10/2018 11:04 pm
Halti.H
(@halti-h)
Active Member
Posted by: varbrah

@krollic A few problems with this: 1) GH release is pulsatile in nature, meaning that you'll have a few large spikes daily, which in the absence of energy, won't release IGF-1, so even if you were to hook yourself up to a machine, monitor your levels and time it just right... 2) digestion and energy production takes so long that your GH spike would've subsided by the time the energy from food becomes bioavailable , and the onset of digestion would've blunted any further GH spikes within about 30 minutes and up to 3-4 hours afterwards.

@varbrah Can you address my questions above bro?

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Posted : 15/10/2018 1:01 am
Varbrah
(@varbrah)
Trusted Member

@Halti.H I just don’t really see a point in fasting specifically for the GH increase if you’re going to be using ibutamoren, and it will only be marginally helpful in stimulating IGF-1 release whilst doing so

Keto is fine. Biochemistry isn’t as simple as IGF-1 down = less IGF-1 expression in tissue. Gotta take into account the changes in receptor density and sensitivity which happen in prolonged ketosis.

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Posted : 15/10/2018 11:59 am
Halti.H
(@halti-h)
Active Member
Posted by: varbrah

@Halti.H I just don’t really see a point in fasting specifically for the GH increase if you’re going to be using ibutamoren, and it will only be marginally helpful in stimulating IGF-1 release whilst doing so

Keto is fine. Biochemistry isn’t as simple as IGF-1 down = less IGF-1 expression in tissue. Gotta take into account the changes in receptor density and sensitivity which happen in prolonged ketosis.

@varbrah Thanks for answering, I hope your right about the keto thing but how can you be sure? I've heard that keto can increase IGF-1 sensitivity but isn't that exactly because of the low IGF-1 levels? Insulin works the same way, keto lowers insulin and thus improves insulin sensitivity. 

And even if the keto diet doesn't lower the IGF-1 levels significantly if you're taking MK-677, wouldn't the IGF-1 levels be even higher if you were not doing keto since keto is known to lower IGF-1 at least to some degree. Have you taken blood tests for your IGF-1 levels while in ketosis?

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Posted : 15/10/2018 1:25 pm
Varbrah
(@varbrah)
Trusted Member

@Halti.H yes I posted IGF-1 levels in a thread a week or two ago, I am currently on keto. My levels were supraphysiological.

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Posted : 15/10/2018 1:26 pm
auxiliary7
(@auxiliary7)
Eminent Member

Fasting will help but not through HGH. Cheers.

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Posted : 15/10/2018 2:33 pm
Halti.H
(@halti-h)
Active Member
Posted by: varbrah

@Halti.H yes I posted IGF-1 levels in a thread a week or two ago, I am currently on keto. My levels were supraphysiological.

Wow that sounds awesome bro, so you don't think that doing a non keto doesn't generally speaking boost IGF-1 levels even more while taking MK-677 than taking it on a keto diet?

 Also what are the main foods that you eat? I've been doing keto for a few weeks now, I'm eating a lot of eggs, loads of leafy greens and other vegetables, lots of olive oil/coconout oil, some fish meat and mushrooms. 

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Posted : 15/10/2018 2:53 pm
Halti.H
(@halti-h)
Active Member
Posted by: auxiliary7

Fasting will help but not through HGH. Cheers.

How do you think it will help then?

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Posted : 15/10/2018 2:55 pm krollic liked
Varbrah
(@varbrah)
Trusted Member
Posted by: Halti.H
Posted by: varbrah

@Halti.H yes I posted IGF-1 levels in a thread a week or two ago, I am currently on keto. My levels were supraphysiological.

Wow that sounds awesome bro, so you don't think that doing a non keto doesn't generally speaking boost IGF-1 levels even more while taking MK-677 than taking it on a keto diet?

 Also what are the main foods that you eat? I've been doing keto for a few weeks now, I'm eating a lot of eggs, loads of leafy greens and other vegetables, lots of olive oil/coconout oil, some fish meat and mushrooms. 

All the staples. fatty meats, cheeses, egg yolks, leafy greens

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Posted : 15/10/2018 3:50 pm Halti.H and Ellie Mae @ GreatnessTakesTime liked
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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