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[Theory]The longer you mew, the faster the progress.  

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auxiliary
Reputable Member

[Theory]

The more you mew, the more your maxilla becomes stretched out, thus the thinner it becomes, which accelerates results.

The more you mew, the further your maxilla moves from your tongue's base, thus the tongue is able to put up less force on the maxilla.

This means that eventually an equilibrium is reached, where no more forward growth is achievable.

[Evidence]

In this reasonably short period of time since I posted my last pictures I've noticed my maxilla changing shape dramatically. While previously my lower maxilla has started remodeling forward it now seems like the middle part of the maxilla has begun remodeling itself as well.

As evidence I present these 4 pictures showing strong nasal changes, which are affected most strongly by changes to the middle part of the maxilla:

[Baseline picture, here I was mewing for a while, I think this is from 1-2 years ago]

[Picture from some weeks ago, here I was deliberately pushing my head forward to show that my mandible is overgrown]

[Current pictures, I made them deliberately from different angles and distances]

[Baseline from years ago compared to now]

[Few weeks ago compared to now]

Notice the philtrum changes as well. And obviously there is massive forward movement of the lower mandible, but some keep claiming it's posture/jutting, so I won't even debate that.

 

 

Angle of nose hump before(few years ago) = +10-14 degrees(100-104 degree angle). The variation is because the hump is kinda roundish with it's own angles inside.

Angle of nose hump now = +6 degrees(96 degree angle). No variation here, the hump is straight, the rest of the nose is straight.

 

I've also claimed that my nasal bone(the edge of it) keeps moving upwards for some reason, I'd love to hear any theories on why.

 

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Posted : 17/01/2021 4:31 am
Loliboly and Mr_Man liked
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Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus

I've also claimed that my nasal bone(the edge of it) keeps moving upwards for some reason, I'd love to hear any theories on why.

The simplest explanation would be that pushing at a point above the rugae (as I recall you writing in another thread) is compressing the vomer and pushing the nasal bone outward. As for accelerated results, I think this is just the consequence of getting closer to the correct technique. It will be interesting to see how your face is going to keep changing.

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Posted : 17/01/2021 3:43 pm
CrimsonChin
Eminent Member

Do you have any pictures of your face from the front? I took a few months off from all this stuff, aside from regularly doing a face massage that I posted about here for around 2 months for the sake of relieving muscle tension. I find that a lot of my efforts to power-mew or do anything related to unnatural overexertion are counterproductive, since it will either flare up tension in my facial muscles or my tongue posture will be very unnatural by trying to force pressure up or outwards. A few times in the past day I've done the "cheese!" technique and then just rest, followed by knuckling the spots in my face where I can detect any strained muscles, which seems to produce quite a noticeable mid face pressure. I think this strain-free method could be pretty effective if you can successfully eliminate any force.

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Posted : 17/01/2021 3:46 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@crimsonchin

Can you explain your "cheese tehnique and knocking in more detail?

@auxiliary

How old are you? I am expirimenting with hard mewing. I guess younger you are faster it is to get results with hard mewing. I have seen pretty wild claims by some mewers at 21 alo my age. 

I guess your theory about force equlibrium makes some sense but i think you will never get this result in reality.

If my tounge is really close to maxilla due to recesion it should mean i get to press it hard right? But maxilla is thicker here?

I guess it dosen't matter actually that maxilla is "thicker" you should have much stronger force this way. But again probably maxilla droped due to weak tounge or wrong posture.

Thus tounge tone is not strong enough when starting. This if i am correct should mean that changes are visible and start to show drastically but after some time.

 

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Posted : 17/01/2021 9:39 pm
CrimsonChin
Eminent Member

@meowxilla The cheese technique is something that I'm sure has been posted on this site before, since I didn't make it up. It's like when you say that word for a photo, you automatically do a wide smile and your tongue moves to the roof of your mouth.

The knuckling thing is digging your thumb knuckle or of all your fingers into various spots on your face that have any tension that keeps your face from resting naturally; I got it from this blog - http://www.observedimpulse.com/2015/03/myofascial-release-for-face-composure.html

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Posted : 18/01/2021 3:33 am
Meowxilla liked
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

[Theory]

The more you mew, the more your maxilla becomes stretched out, thus the thinner it becomes, which accelerates results.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But wouldn't new bone be generated in process of expanding the maxilla? As for the acceleration, I think @Progress comment regarding improved technique explains this in part. Another idea: Couldn't it be the case that the sutures in a poorly developed face are more compressed than they are in a healthy one? If so, loosening them up and getting them moving would be slow in the beginning. But as momentum builds up, the speed of movement start accelerating. Sort of like getting a boulder rock to move: Hard to get going, but as you finally get it to move, it is relatively easier to get it to speed up. Not a perfect analogy, but I hope it gets my point across.

The more you mew, the further your maxilla moves from your tongue's base, thus the tongue is able to put up less force on the maxilla.

This means that eventually an equilibrium is reached, where no more forward growth is achievable.

Is this the same idea as the one which says that once the maxilla/upper palate is sufficiently wide to accommodate the full spread of the tongue, the growth stops? If so, I personally think this was is plausible.

[Picture from some weeks ago, here I was deliberately pushing my head forward to show that my mandible is overgrown]

On another note, why do you think your mandible is overgrown? It looks good if you ask me...

I otherwise had a hard time detecting the changes you spoke of in your philtrum and especially your nose. It looks slightly different in nearly all the pictures to me, so I simply can’t make any judgment about it. Regardless, have your breathing gotten worse as your nose has come up? I remember reading somewhere that a compressed vomer may comprise ones breathing capabilities. This could be a way to verify @Progress idea.

 

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Posted : 18/01/2021 4:47 am
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

I've also claimed that my nasal bone(the edge of it) keeps moving upwards for some reason, I'd love to hear any theories on why.

The simplest explanation would be that pushing at a point above the rugae (as I recall you writing in another thread) is compressing the vomer and pushing the nasal bone outward. As for accelerated results, I think this is just the consequence of getting closer to the correct technique. It will be interesting to see how your face is going to keep changing.

I've noticed the nasal bone moving upwards even when I was hard-mewing using Mew's technique where I simply kept the tip of my tongue close to the upper incisors. It seems that the nasal bone is either compressing itself or actually rotating. In either case the nasal bone moving upwards on my face actually creates a worse hump(sharper angle), but at the same time making the hump less visible(the length of the hump is getting smaller). 

 

I'm also interested in this experiment. I've been hard-mewing in the beginning with almost only upwards force, right now I am basically letting my face decompress while only pushing the lower maxilla forward. Of course the tongue derives all it's strength from the jaw which itself is attached to the upper maxilla/some indirectly connected bones. Which means you can't really push the maxilla forward independently using the tongue.

So overall in theory I should keep lengthening the maxilla forward without actually moving it forward.

 

My transversal gains have also fully stalled, no matter how hard I try I cannot expand my palate beyond 45mm IMW and 35mm ICW, I have a theory that now my palate is limited by my head's width, which means I can only expand my head's width now instead of being able to expand the palate independently. The theory is based on the assumption that the masseter is now pushing against my palate which is pushing my palate back inwards. I basically permanently feel inwards force on my rearest molars from my cheeks.

 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 8:20 am
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @crimsonchin

Do you have any pictures of your face from the front? I took a few months off from all this stuff, aside from regularly doing a face massage that I posted about here for around 2 months for the sake of relieving muscle tension. I find that a lot of my efforts to power-mew or do anything related to unnatural overexertion are counterproductive, since it will either flare up tension in my facial muscles or my tongue posture will be very unnatural by trying to force pressure up or outwards. A few times in the past day I've done the "cheese!" technique and then just rest, followed by knuckling the spots in my face where I can detect any strained muscles, which seems to produce quite a noticeable mid face pressure. I think this strain-free method could be pretty effective if you can successfully eliminate any force.

Before seriously mewing(18 years old):

This is after I started seriously mewing, but there's also a lot of pubertal changes(21 years old)

I know the pictures aren't best, but my camera is messed up right now and overall the lighting in northern Europe during winter is horrible.

 

Also I mew now only by relaxing my tongue against the hard palate, above the ridges. Occasionally I'll train my tongue in sideways strength(hold it with my fingers and make it narrow then try to force it to become wider). This is something I am experimenting with because I'd very much like to expand my front palate even further. The shape of my palate is still very V-like instead of the U-shape.

 

And Idk about facial muscle tension, I exercise my facial muscles every-day as I have a theory that having stronger muscles on top of your head might actually resist the downward forces produces by gravity. Basically I think the forehead can be lifted up or down by muscular tension in it's sutures.

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Posted : 19/01/2021 8:26 am
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @meowxilla

@crimsonchin

Can you explain your "cheese tehnique and knocking in more detail?

@auxiliary

How old are you? I am expirimenting with hard mewing. I guess younger you are faster it is to get results with hard mewing. I have seen pretty wild claims by some mewers at 21 alo my age. 

I guess your theory about force equlibrium makes some sense but i think you will never get this result in reality.

If my tounge is really close to maxilla due to recesion it should mean i get to press it hard right? But maxilla is thicker here?

I guess it dosen't matter actually that maxilla is "thicker" you should have much stronger force this way. But again probably maxilla droped due to weak tounge or wrong posture.

Thus tounge tone is not strong enough when starting. This if i am correct should mean that changes are visible and start to show drastically but after some time.

 

I'm 21 right now, I started hard mewing at 18, hard mewing gave me a lot of palate expansion, especially in the back of my throat, however it messed up a lot of proportions and it didn't brought any forward growth at all.

While browsing Reddit some people said their orthodontics clinic recommends resting the tongue higher against the palate, which is what I switched to. At the very beginning I already felt much more forward forces and then over time I noticed huge changes to my lower maxilla(basically it got pushed out).

I started soft-mewing using that technique at 20 and have had great forward growth results and even some expansion.

"If my tounge is really close to maxilla due to recesion it should mean i get to press it hard right? But maxilla is thicker here?"

Idk, I never push hard forward, seems counter-intuitive because it makes your tongue narrower. I just rest my tongue 24/7 against the palate, it naturally pushes forward from decompression. Also maxilla seems thicker on lower part and thinner on upper part, but maybe I am wrong.

"I guess it dosen't matter actually that maxilla is "thicker" you should have much stronger force this way. But again probably maxilla droped due to weak tounge or wrong posture."

I feel like my maxilla has become thinner from mewing.

"Thus tounge tone is not strong enough when starting. This if i am correct should mean that changes are visible and start to show drastically but after some time."

I think it's less that and more that most bone remodeling happens during sleep, and it takes a while to get your tongue to stay there.

 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 8:32 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@auxiliarus

If it makes tounge narrower then you wouldn't get expansion but that's exactly what happend when you started to hard mew.

I think that tounge damages bone thus increasing resorption. After increased resporption body has increase growth. Both coins of a bone remodeling process. That is why i think tounge needs strenght first. When it happends? Could be in sleep.

Also when tounge gets stronger it maybe naturally gets into a proper posture. Something Mike Mew also theorized.

 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 9:45 am
Chilly
Active Member

@auxiliarus I’ve had the same experiences . I’ve been mewing since 15 yrs old. I would have the tongue too far back . My palate is wide in the back where the tongue doesn’t touch the back molars . The front of the palate my teeth retroclined inwards . The tip of my tongue touches the front teeth ,like at the roots not whole tooth. I’ve noticed my face is coming forwards now . The needs to be out of the throat as much as possible to clear the airway . Overtime the tongue will create more space in the airway and push everything forwards. 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 11:05 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @chilly

@auxiliarus I’ve had the same experiences . I’ve been mewing since 15 yrs old. I would have the tongue too far back . My palate is wide in the back where the tongue doesn’t touch the back molars . The front of the palate my teeth retroclined inwards . The tip of my tongue touches the front teeth ,like at the roots not whole tooth. I’ve noticed my face is coming forwards now . The needs to be out of the throat as much as possible to clear the airway . Overtime the tongue will create more space in the airway and push everything forwards. 

Like you, I've been mewing for a long time, and even though I've achieved almost a cm of increase in IMW, my anterior teeth remain as retroclined as they've always been. I'm wondering myself if it's necessary to touch the teeth after all in order to achieve forward palatal growth. If braces can dystrophy the face so much by simply pulling on the teeth, shouldn't the tongue then be able to achieve the opposite by having it rest against the teeth (esp. anterior teeth)?

Here is someone who said to have had rested his tongue against all his maxillary teeth for two years:

When you think about it, have you ever seen someone whose teeth were too proclined? I've only seen incisors that merely appeared excessively retroclined due to small palatal width and relative backward positioning of the rest of the teeth. Such as this example:

Question: if the rest of her teeth were in line with the incisors, would her smile still look funny? If you ask me, it would simply look like the smile of a well-developed person. So perhaps lower maxillary development is all about gently pushing the teeth forward and outward with the tongue?

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Posted : 19/01/2021 11:30 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @chilly

@auxiliarus I’ve had the same experiences . I’ve been mewing since 15 yrs old. I would have the tongue too far back . My palate is wide in the back where the tongue doesn’t touch the back molars . The front of the palate my teeth retroclined inwards .

Like you, I've been mewing for a long time, and even though I've achieved almost a cm of increase in IMW, my anterior teeth remain as retroclined as they've always been. I'm wondering myself if it's necessary to touch the teeth after all in order to achieve forward palatal growth. If braces can dystrophy the face so much by simply pulling on the teeth, shouldn't the tongue then be able to achieve the opposite by having it rest against the teeth (esp. anterior teeth)?

@progress @chilly

Aside from working on your oral posture, have you chewed a lot as well? Although I don’t understand how(and maybe should know by now), a lot of people claim that chewing straightens teeth, which then maybe could be (part of) the answer for you two.

Anyhow, when allowed to actually be entertained, the idea of deliberate pushing of the teeth is actually interesting. But it raises a lot of questions. How much of to the teeth would actually be in contact with the tongue? Would all teeth, including incisors, be pushed? Would one focus on specific teeth? In turn, the question of bite necessarily arises. To me, the least unnatural way to do this would be to keep a butterfly bite and push the molars. I also think like you wouldn’t want to push too close to the edges of the teeth, for the sake of avoiding damage*, which a butterfly bite would ensure anyways. If one would try to push at the incisors, an open bite seems like a necessity, at least for me. My jaw automatically juts forwards when I try to let my tongue make contact with them.

*Another question that should be asked is if it possible for adults to completely straighten their teeth without compromising the lifespan of their teeth. As most people probably are aware of, John Mew has frequently warned people from pushing at their teeth.

Here is someone who said to have had rested his tongue against all his maxillary teeth for two years:

Could you provide a link to where you found this person?

 

When you think about it, have you ever seen someone whose teeth were too proclined?

Curiously enough, I have seen it in a indivudal adult( chronic mouth breather since very, very early age). This seems however like the results of an extremely narrow palate(estimated no more than 25 mm), where it seems like the teeth have started to flare out because of their sagging maxilla.

Question: if the rest of her teeth were in line with the incisors, would her smile still look funny? If you ask me, it would simply look like the smile of a well-developed person.

I agree.

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Posted : 19/01/2021 12:53 pm
Chilly
Active Member

@progress I was thinking about that as well. It makes sense logically . If your tongue isn’t pushing on the front teeth they will collapse inwards. When I first started mewing my molars would touch the tongue . Now they don’t . That tells me the forces from the tongue pushed them away . It’s a good bet that the same will happen with the front teeth overtime . The tongue will push the front teeth outwards . When the teeth are slightly apart the tongue can evenly apply pressure . I noticed I apply more pressure at the front. That girls front teeth are were they should be . The rest of her teeth didn’t get pushed out by the tongue . She probably only had the tip of her tongue up .Notice her forward growth.if she had the rest of her tongue up on the palate overtime the rest of palate would expand outwards. . I’m going to have the tongue push on my front teeth . 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 1:02 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

I'm wondering myself if it's necessary to touch the teeth after all in order to achieve forward palatal growth.

Maybe I glossed over this point. If I were to push an object forward, it generally would be the most effective to push at its middle, no? I imagine the middle of our object in this case to be no further down than at the alveolar ridge, but possible even higher than that. It seems like pushing at the teeth wouldn’t make the forces travel in an efficient way to move the maxilla in the desired direction, as the teeth would absorb most of the energy, and move accordingly.

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Posted : 19/01/2021 1:07 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @loliboly

Aside from working on your oral posture, have you chewed a lot as well?

I've been chewing quite a lot during certain periods of my journey. I never felt like it made much difference. Rather than purposefully chewing gum, these days I just chew forcefully regardless of what I'm eating.

Posted by: @loliboly

But it raises a lot of questions. How much of to the teeth would actually be in contact with the tongue?

I personally find it most comfortable to push somewhere around the gumline and the lower portion of the teeth. As you say, pushing too close to the edges of the teeth may not be ideal. On the other hand, pushing too far above the gumline may not stimulate the alveolar process to change.

Posted by: @loliboly

If one would try to push at the incisors, an open bite seems like a necessity, at least for me.

Isn't open bite the result of keeping your tongue in between the teeth, rather than pushing on the interior roots of the upper incisors? Would it possible to end up with open bite when you are not pushing at the anterior teeth like this?:

I.e. you are not carving a space betweeen the upper and lower arches, but rather developing the upper arch forward so that the lower may follow after it.

Posted by: @loliboly

As most people probably are aware of, John Mew has frequently warned people from pushing at their teeth.

That's true. Though I feel that of all the results that John has publicized, none of them are striking to the extent some of the changes people have achieved on Reddit and Looksmax are. It makes you wonder whether John could perhaps be a little too conservative in regards to tongue-teeth contact.

Posted by: @loliboly

Could you provide a link to where you found this person?

https://looksmax.me/threads/just-found-2-year-old-selfies-with-side-profile-and-its-the-most-[Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]-i-ever-looked.277703/

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Posted : 19/01/2021 1:10 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @chilly

That girls front teeth are were they should be . The rest of her teeth didn’t get pushed out by the tongue . She probably only had the tip of her tongue up .Notice her forward growth.if she had the rest of her tongue up on the palate overtime the rest of palate would expand outwards.

Yeah exactly. The girl in question is the lead actor from the 1960s show Little House on the Prairie. Apparently she was treated with orthodontic headgear. It's heartbreaking to see how much her facial form suffered due to the treatment:

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Posted : 19/01/2021 1:17 pm
Chilly
Active Member


@loliboly I have to jut my jaw as well. I don’t believe is teeth contact . The airway is the most important thing. I also chew without my teeth touching . I’ve made insane progress within a short period of time . Pushing on teeth is not bad . It’s only bad when it’s done by appliances . The body is designed perfect. Focus on getting the forward as possible in the mouth. Even if that means pushing on the front teeth. Or having to slightly jut . Also I recommend chew on the front teeth if you lack forward growth. Chew without allowing the teeth to touch. 

short story time

Back in 6th grade middle school . There was this one guy that would chew gum everyday . He would bring 2 sticks of gum . One to take after lunchtime. He always chewed on his front teeth . From 6th grade to 8th grade he became the most attractive guy . He had insane chin and forward growth. His teeth were all flared outwards in the front and the rest of his teeth lacked wide in comparison. I remember I started chewing all the time cause I wanted a nice chin like him ended up with huge [Rude Language will not be tolerated] jaws lol . But I chewed with my molars . And never with the front teeth . It resulted in what is known as a short face syndrome. The back of my palate is around 50 mm but it narrows towards the front . Here is a picture of me at age 16 . I used to always do this stupid duck face cause I lacked development in the front of the palate . Notice how wide my jaw was. My face was very 2D and looked flat from side profile . 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 1:36 pm
Chilly
Active Member

@progress The focus should be on bring the tongue forward as possible out of the airway . I definitely feel the fascia at work . It makes me walk upright without having to think about . When I push my whole tongue forward and up as possible , of course with lips seal and teeth slight apart . I also notice my temporalis, masseter, and zygomaticus muscle engaged as well. It’s truly about the tongue . The tongue will even affect the toes .

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Posted : 19/01/2021 1:56 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @chilly

@progress The focus should be on bring the tongue forward as possible out of the airway . I definitely feel the fascia at work . It makes me walk upright without having to think about . When I push my whole tongue forward and up as possible , of course with lips seal and teeth slight apart . I also notice my temporalis, masseter, and zygomaticus muscle engaged as well. It’s truly about the tongue . The tongue will even affect the toes .

Makes sense. When I tried to focus on lifting the posterior tongue up, my lordotic curvature would only intensify. Focusing on the anterior palate generates much better counter-balance for the hips. The way I see it, the posterior tongue will naturally assume its intended position when the anterior tongue is being used correctly. The Mews' obsession over the posterior tongue kind of misses the mark as far as facial development and postural functioning goes. It seems that Mike has gone too far in regards to this aspect of oral posture, whereas John correctly intuits that mostly only the tip & the blade of the tongue matters. Mike thinks that he is achieving better results than John, but that might just be hubris, as the only thing that the posterior tongue can achieve is increased zygomatic prominence and inter-molar width. For sure, the posterior tongue will help with expanding the middle third of the face, but it doesn't mean much if the lower third is not allowed to come forward.

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Posted : 19/01/2021 2:08 pm
auxiliary liked
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @loliboly

Aside from working on your oral posture, have you chewed a lot as well?

I've been chewing quite a lot during certain periods of my journey. I never felt like it made much difference.

In relation to facial shape, or in relationship to the teeth?

Posted by: @loliboly

But it raises a lot of questions. How much of to the teeth would actually be in contact with the tongue?

I personally find it most comfortable to push somewhere around the gumline and the lower portion of the teeth. As you say, pushing too close to the edges of the teeth may not be ideal. On the other hand, pushing too far above the gumline may not stimulate the alveolar process to change.

Well, this is what I addressed in the other comment. Does pushing teeth mostly/only affect the position of the teeth, or the rest of the skull as well? It seems like the former to me, but I would be interested to see you elaborate on this.

 
Posted by: @loliboly

If one would try to push at the incisors, an open bite seems like a necessity, at least for me.

Isn't open bite the result of keeping your tongue in between the teeth, rather than pushing on the interior roots of the upper incisors? Would it possible to end up with open bite when you are not pushing at the anterior teeth like this?:

I.e. you are not carving a space betweeen the upper and lower arches, but rather developing the upper arch forward so that the lower may follow after it.

Sorry, I had a hunch that “open bite” generally refers to something else, but I had forgot what it was. That is of course an actual open bite. I simply meant teeth in no contact to each other, with tongue behind the whole of the incisors. I don’t think any of the ideas where are toying with could case an open bite.

Posted by: @loliboly

As most people probably are aware of, John Mew has frequently warned people from pushing at their teeth.

That's true. Though I feel that of all the results that John has publicized, none of them are striking to the extent some of the changes people have achieved on Reddit and Looksmax are. It makes you wonder whether John could perhaps be a little too conservative in regards to tongue-teeth contact.

This is something I have thought of as well. As commendable as the pioneer is, he still shouldn't be expected to nail everything down correctly. One thing is for sure, and that is that you can grow the alveolar process while touching the teeth. The recent eruption of one of my wisdom teeth is testament to this, as my narrow palate simply forces my tongue to slightly touch my molars. But I don’t think the issue is if this is that most effective way to do this or not. Is I said before, I don’t see the value in pushing at the teeth for the sake of forwards growth/facial upswing/expansion. But for aligning the teeth, possibly so. Still, the question is if it is possible to do so without damaging the roots of the teeth.

Since you may have widened your palate to its limit, couldn't you just opt for braces(ignoring the issue of money)? I actually think the Mews already does this sometimes, if I am not mistaken.

Posted by: @loliboly

Could you provide a link to where you found this person?

https://looksmax.me/threads/just-found-2-year-old-selfies-with-side-profile-and-its-the-most-[Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]-i-ever-looked.277703/

I am going to ask him to get into more detail of his oral posture. His results are very impressive!

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Posted : 19/01/2021 2:09 pm
Chilly
Active Member

@progress i had a forwards lean that went away from engaging the whole tongue. Some people are just too close to the puzzle to see the picture forming . Hard mewing definitely helps a lot to help strengthen the tongue . Overtime the more strength the tongue builds . It becomes effortless to walk with top notch posture . 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 2:22 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @chil

@loliboly I have to jut my jaw as well. I don’t believe is teeth contact . The airway is the most important thing.

I don’t think the airway is compromised in anyway from keeping teeth together. I also have no problems what so ever breathing while engaging the posterior third, as it covers the whole of my soft palate.

I also chew without my teeth touching .

How is this possible? And why would you even do that?

 

I’ve made insane progress within a short period of time . Pushing on teeth is not bad . It’s only bad when it’s done by appliances . The body is designed perfect. Focus on getting the forward as possible in the mouth. Even if that means pushing on the front teeth. Or having to slightly jut .

Do you apply high levels of force while doing this? 

 

 ...But I chewed with my molars . And never with the front teeth . The back of my palate is around 50 mm but it narrows towards the front... 

This is interesting. My palate is much wider in back as well, but really narrow in the front. Because of the high level of crowding, I sometimes avoid using the incisors. Maybe this in turn exacerbated the problem further. 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 2:32 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
...When I tried to focus on lifting the posterior tongue up, my lordotic curvature would only intensify... The way I see it, the posterior tongue will naturally assume its intended position when the anterior tongue is being used correctly. The Mews' obsession over the posterior tongue kind of misses the mark as far as facial development and postural functioning goes. It seems that Mike has gone too far in regards to this aspect of oral posture, whereas John correctly intuits that mostly only the tip & the blade of the tongue matters. Mike thinks that he is achieving better results than John, but that might just be hubris, as the only thing that the posterior tongue can achieve is increased zygomatic prominence and inter-molar width. For sure, the posterior tongue will help with expanding the middle third of the face, but it doesn't mean much if the lower third is not allowed to come forward.
This is interesting, as I experience the exact opposite. If anything, I find that my neck straightens and stabilises while focusing on the posterior third. Furthermore, properly engaging the posterior third seems to bring the rest of the tongue into to the right place*. Ever since I learned to isolate the palatoglossus muscle, all of the intense sensations we discussed a few months ago(some similar to what @chilly just described) arose in my skull.
 
*Mike mentioned in while being interview by Koko(face yoga) that this is the reason he stresses the importance of the posterior third. “It acts as a reminder for the rest of the tongue”. He did however also state that he thinks the tip has more potential with manipulating the maxilla.

W

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Posted : 19/01/2021 2:46 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @loliboly
Posted by: @progress
...When I tried to focus on lifting the posterior tongue up, my lordotic curvature would only intensify... The way I see it, the posterior tongue will naturally assume its intended position when the anterior tongue is being used correctly. The Mews' obsession over the posterior tongue kind of misses the mark as far as facial development and postural functioning goes. It seems that Mike has gone too far in regards to this aspect of oral posture, whereas John correctly intuits that mostly only the tip & the blade of the tongue matters. Mike thinks that he is achieving better results than John, but that might just be hubris, as the only thing that the posterior tongue can achieve is increased zygomatic prominence and inter-molar width. For sure, the posterior tongue will help with expanding the middle third of the face, but it doesn't mean much if the lower third is not allowed to come forward.
This is interesting, as I experience the exact opposite. If anything, I find that my neck straightens and stabilises while focusing on the posterior third. Furthermore, properly engaging the posterior third seems to bring the rest of the tongue into to the right place*. Ever since I learned to isolate the palatoglossus muscle, all of the intense sensations we discussed a few months ago(some similar to what @chilly just described) arose in my skull.
 
*Mike mentioned in while being interview by Koko(face yoga) that this is the reason he stresses the importance of the posterior third. “It acts as a reminder for the rest of the tongue”. He did however also state that he thinks the tip has more potential with manipulating the maxilla.

W

Does your posterior tongue rise if you just drive your occiput upward? I guess what I'm asking is whether your posterior tongue straightens out the neck or straightening out your neck engages the posterior tongue (if there is difference between the two to begin with).

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Posted : 19/01/2021 3:25 pm
CrimsonChin
Eminent Member

This tongue on teeth posture is a pretty interesting theory(?). I tried for years to find the magic spot with the posterior tongue and could only find it at pure random; even though that produced mid-face pressure, in hindsight it now seems hard to imagine how that could produce forward movement. I'd be a bit afraid of teeth tipping by pushing on my front teeth, but I've moved my tongue as forward as possible without doing that, so it's resting on the hard spot right behind (I forget the word) and I can already feel a different force/pressure at work, even without necessarily forcing hard posture, since there seems to be a semi-automatic upward pressure. It'd probably take at least 6 months to see if this is worth a damn, but if it can be done all the time and not have this skill randomly disappear, it seems like it has potential.

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Posted : 19/01/2021 4:12 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @loliboly
Posted by: @progress
...When I tried to focus on lifting the posterior tongue up, my lordotic curvature would only intensify... The way I see it, the posterior tongue will naturally assume its intended position when the anterior tongue is being used correctly. The Mews' obsession over the posterior tongue kind of misses the mark as far as facial development and postural functioning goes. It seems that Mike has gone too far in regards to this aspect of oral posture, whereas John correctly intuits that mostly only the tip & the blade of the tongue matters. Mike thinks that he is achieving better results than John, but that might just be hubris, as the only thing that the posterior tongue can achieve is increased zygomatic prominence and inter-molar width. For sure, the posterior tongue will help with expanding the middle third of the face, but it doesn't mean much if the lower third is not allowed to come forward.
This is interesting, as I experience the exact opposite. If anything, I find that my neck straightens and stabilises while focusing on the posterior third. Furthermore, properly engaging the posterior third seems to bring the rest of the tongue into to the right place*. Ever since I learned to isolate the palatoglossus muscle, all of the intense sensations we discussed a few months ago(some similar to what @chilly just described) arose in my skull.
 
*Mike mentioned in while being interview by Koko(face yoga) that this is the reason he stresses the importance of the posterior third. “It acts as a reminder for the rest of the tongue”. He did however also state that he thinks the tip has more potential with manipulating the maxilla.

W

Does your posterior tongue rise if you just drive your occiput upward?

Yes, but not very much. I reckon this is normal, from what I have gathered from the forum, right?

I guess what I'm asking is whether your posterior tongue straightens out the neck or straightening out your neck engages the posterior tongue (if there is difference between the two to begin with).

I would say both. However, if I straighten my neck, I don’t feel my posterior third engaging in a postural way. It merely feels like it gets shoved up closer to the soft palate. When I engage the palatoglossus however, it does seem to stabilise my neck, in a subtle but nice way. 

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Posted : 19/01/2021 4:54 pm
Chilly
Active Member

Do we have any images of front teeth proclined (tipped forwards too much)? I only found this one image

Is it just me or did she look better in the before picture ? . Notice how she is recessed looking in the after picture. Just needed an expansion . If the front teeth are flare out wouldn’t the jaw have to go up and forwards to meet it ? Giving you a more squared jaw .Thoughts ?

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Posted : 19/01/2021 5:30 pm
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @loliboly
Posted by: @auxiliarus

[Theory]

The more you mew, the more your maxilla becomes stretched out, thus the thinner it becomes, which accelerates results.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But wouldn't new bone be generated in process of expanding the maxilla? As for the acceleration, I think @Progress comment regarding improved technique explains this in part. Another idea: Couldn't it be the case that the sutures in a poorly developed face are more compressed than they are in a healthy one? If so, loosening them up and getting them moving would be slow in the beginning. But as momentum builds up, the speed of movement start accelerating. Sort of like getting a boulder rock to move: Hard to get going, but as you finally get it to move, it is relatively easier to get it to speed up. Not a perfect analogy, but I hope it gets my point across.

The more you mew, the further your maxilla moves from your tongue's base, thus the tongue is able to put up less force on the maxilla.

This means that eventually an equilibrium is reached, where no more forward growth is achievable.

Is this the same idea as the one which says that once the maxilla/upper palate is sufficiently wide to accommodate the full spread of the tongue, the growth stops? If so, I personally think this was is plausible.

[Picture from some weeks ago, here I was deliberately pushing my head forward to show that my mandible is overgrown]

On another note, why do you think your mandible is overgrown? It looks good if you ask me...

I otherwise had a hard time detecting the changes you spoke of in your philtrum and especially your nose. It looks slightly different in nearly all the pictures to me, so I simply can’t make any judgment about it. Regardless, have your breathing gotten worse as your nose has come up? I remember reading somewhere that a compressed vomer may comprise ones breathing capabilities. This could be a way to verify @Progress idea.

 

1) Wouldn't new bone be generated? Yes, but I feel my bone thinner than previously. It's either thinner or softer. It feels more malleable. But some of the bone would also be stretched out.

I don't think it's the sutures being compressed than more the sutures being too hard, over time I believe my sutures have softened.

But either way, the lower maxilla has no sutures, that's where I am noticing right now the most change, it's moving forward at relatively fast speed.

 

2) Not that the growth stops, but the expansion eventually halts. Also there would be still constant expansive forces, there would just be as equally much counter-expansive forces that would prevent further expansion. And if you didn't have proper tongue posture then your face would become narrower again.

 

3) My mandible is overgrown because I measured it and it was way above average in length. In the picture you quoted I am actually pushing my head forward to show how big it is. If you can see it then you can see that my mandible is further than the lower tip of my ear. It's also so long that my ramus is rotated inward to maintain occlusion.

 

4) My breathing has improved considerably. As for the philtrum, you should try drawing angles and see what it comes out to, the philtrum is much straighter now because the middle maxilla moved forward. Idk anything about vomer so I can't say, but I don't think my vomer is compressed since my face is being stretched out forward. But even when I hard-mewed with upwards forces my breathing didn't worsen but only improve.

 

 

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Posted : 20/01/2021 5:13 am
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @meowxilla

@auxiliarus

If it makes tounge narrower then you wouldn't get expansion but that's exactly what happend when you started to hard mew.

I think that tounge damages bone thus increasing resorption. After increased resporption body has increase growth. Both coins of a bone remodeling process. That is why i think tounge needs strenght first. When it happends? Could be in sleep.

Also when tounge gets stronger it maybe naturally gets into a proper posture. Something Mike Mew also theorized.

 

1) Actually that didn't happen. I got expansion at the back of my palate where the tongue doesn't narrow, but my inter-canine width lagged. Unfortunately I didn't make any measurements before, but my inter-canine width seems wider than before soft-mewing. It's currently at 35mm.

2) Idk about tongue strength, but the tongue might be able to hypertrophy from training which would result in more forward and sideways growth.

3) Idk about that either, all I know is it takes awhile before you subconsciously fix your tongue posture during sleep.

 

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Posted : 20/01/2021 5:15 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus

the philtrum is much straighter now because the middle maxilla moved forward.

Are you sure straighter philtrum is a positive sign? Usually we lose our philtrum curvature as age-acquired CFD begins to cumulate. A curved philtrum is often associated with a youthful and well developed appearance.

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Posted : 20/01/2021 2:51 pm
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

the philtrum is much straighter now because the middle maxilla moved forward.

Are you sure straighter philtrum is a positive sign? Usually we lose our philtrum curvature as age-acquired CFD begins to cumulate. A curved philtrum is often associated with a youthful and well developed appearance.

Well, it could be an U-shaped phenomenon. On the one hand the lower maxilla retruding will cause a straighter philtrum, on the other the middle maxilla protruding will cause a straighter philtrum as well.

One involves recession, the other involves forward maxillary remodeling. As for appearances, I am not sure what's better. I'd rather not have childish traits as a man to be honest, those seem to do well for women.

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Posted : 21/01/2021 8:12 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

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Posted by: @auxiliarus
closeup2

Notice the philtrum changes as well. And obviously there is massive forward movement of the lower mandible, but some keep claiming it's posture/jutting, so I won't even debate that.

 

 

Angle of nose hump before(few years ago) = +10-14 degrees(100-104 degree angle). The variation is because the hump is kinda roundish with it's own angles inside.

Angle of nose hump now = +6 degrees(96 degree angle). No variation here, the hump is straight, the rest of the nose is straight.

Imo, the lack of curvature in the philtrum is because the photos are taken at slightly different angles. The skin in your forehead between your eyebrows are visible in the before pic while it's not in the after pic, which shows it is visible in the first place because of the difference in angle.

I've personally had similar "changes" observed in my own pics as well and those "changes" vanished in seconds when I retook the pics after addressing the angle variations. I suggest you retake the pics and compare.

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Posted : 26/01/2021 11:12 pm
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @azrael

.

Posted by: @auxiliarus
closeup2

Notice the philtrum changes as well. And obviously there is massive forward movement of the lower mandible, but some keep claiming it's posture/jutting, so I won't even debate that.

 

 

Angle of nose hump before(few years ago) = +10-14 degrees(100-104 degree angle). The variation is because the hump is kinda roundish with it's own angles inside.

Angle of nose hump now = +6 degrees(96 degree angle). No variation here, the hump is straight, the rest of the nose is straight.

Imo, the lack of curvature in the philtrum is because the photos are taken at slightly different angles. The skin in your forehead between your eyebrows are visible in the before pic while it's not in the after pic, which shows it is visible in the first place because of the difference in angle.

I've personally had similar "changes" observed in my own pics as well and those "changes" vanished in seconds when I retook the pics after addressing the angle variations. I suggest you retake the pics and compare.

I took pictures from multiple angles though, they are all in original post.

 

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Posted : 27/01/2021 12:13 pm