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Theory: Language and Facial Form  

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Apollo
Reputable Member

It occurred to me that different languages might encourage better lingual posture. The best example I could think of are Khoisan and other languages with click consonants that seem to involve repeatedly making that suction hold motion with the tongue. This guy (  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6WO5XabD-s ) for example seems to have nice facial form. I imagine the process of children learning how to speak in these languages might make it more intuitive for them to maintain proper oral posture during their developmental years. I suspect voicing phonemes from other languages could have similar benefits. Maybe languages with gutteral sounds like Hebrew might be beneficial for control of the posterior 1/3 of the tongue. What do you think?

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Posted : 12/01/2018 11:29 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Ha. Of course it's 2018, if you are not learning Hebrew in order to optimize your mewing technique, you are basically wasting your time.

How a tongue is used in daily speech may have some minor influence towards non-conscious maintenance of tongue posture in sub-ideal conditions. However, it's good to remember that proper posture is a default state, not a goal that should be needed to strive for. Tribesmen tend to inevitably learn the correct way of using their body for the same reason wild animals do: they are living in an environment they evolved to live in. Everything about their way of living supports ideal function and wellbeing. It's only in the civilized society where we sit on chairs, move insufficiently and are not in touch with the subleties of our body that tongue posture gets compromised.

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Posted : 13/01/2018 7:53 am
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that learning another language would be an efficient way for adults to improve their oral posture, and I don't really have any idea which languages might be advantageous. However, I do think that the language you learned to speak as a child could have some (probably minor) influence on your facial features. If we compare French faces to Germans, for example, are the differences all genetic, or might some of them be influenced by cultural facial expressions or speech mechanics? In some cases, those who learn a foreign language as an adult are never able to master proper pronunciation because our mouths are unaccustomed to producing the motions for different phonemes. If those motions happen to be beneficial for facial development, it seems reasonable to me that they might have an advantage engaging those muscles during their developmental years. It's really just something I found interesting to think about, with little applicable value.

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Posted : 13/01/2018 2:18 pm
Gregory
Eminent Member

Yes. Yes. Yes.

it is plausible, nay arguably inevitable that some languages will train the face more than others. Either because the syntax/ structure of the speech makes it so, or perhaps because the arrangement of letters vowels consonants and the movements necessary to execute the speech makes it so.

Maybe the repetition of sounds itself acts as a Myofunctional therapy at the (linguistic, ethnic, regional) scale. 

Consider different ways of saying hello — Hello (English), Hallo (German), Bonjour! (French), Konichiwa (Japanese), ‘Anyoung haseyo’ (Korean), Ola (Portuguese)

some are more involved than others and the movements are quite varied. 

then extrapolate that to whole language  

Posture and function are interlinked? Our muscular habits dictate growth?

 People are more affected by nurture than nature, in my opinion. Also, I’d argue that Is the whole philosophy orthotropics hinges upon  

if speech is a function, then the posture would presumably be affected by that.  

If you look at those depictions of “beauty ideals of each ethnicity/country” there will be some similarities sur yet slight variations.  Or look composites of people from specific regions. I think this gives further credence to the environmental factors 

Arguably that could be a sociological indicator of the correlation between environmental impact of language and facial form. 

Another idea that springs from this: Perhaps just having conversations with people is a minor form of Myofunctional therapy. Perhaps a new habit/rule for those interested in improving their posture and face need to have a minimum amount of conversations or verbal communication each day?

Dr Mew does reject/doubt the nutritional argument re: cause of malocclusion. 

I say it is our habits. And yes speech is a powerful habit. 

Done. 

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Posted : 13/01/2018 3:05 pm
Apollo liked
Progress
Member Moderator

Apollo: It is true that achieving fluency in a spoken langauge is easier as a child. The reason is the same as for why learning an instrument as an adult with no musical background is much harder than it is for a young child: children simply are superior learners. However, as there are only so many convenient ways to produce unique phonemes, the muscles involved in producing speech tend to be invariably the same in the vast majority of languages. Only the fine details of the muscle-specific movements change. Considering how facial development:

1. is more dependent on static long-term force (tongue posture) than short bursts of force (eg. consonants)

2. happens mainly through pre-determined sutures

it is hard to see how the phonemic variation among populations of the world could lead to significant differences in facial form. All of its possible significance is easily offset by the culturally encouraged / disencouraged level of physical activity in childhood.

***

Gregory: Your point of view is that speech itself could act as a form of of myofunctional therapy. Following this path of reasoning, it seems reasonable to assume then that there is an evident correlation between individuals who talk a lot and those who have good posture and great facial form. I don't think this is the case. Acceptable speech can be produced in just about any kind of anatomically deficient posture. Mindful blabbering will not save you from the postural damage caused by excessive sitting and lack of wholesome exercise, and those who DO maintain sufficient level of postural fitness (even the mutes) will inevitably find their tongue correctly on the roof of the mouth with no additional effort needed.

***

Regarding geographical differences in average facial form, what you both are observing is differing phenotypes, which can be thought of as sub-races/ethnicities. A West-European phenotype composite will not look like an East-European phenotype composite, no matter how similar the lifestyle factors between the regions are made. Proper posture allows the normal expression of the features of the inherited biology, it will not transform the individual into some kind of universal ideal type (although the average proportions of any ethnic group certainly tend to be mathematically predictable through natural laws of harmony such as the golden ratio).

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Posted : 13/01/2018 4:23 pm
Gregory
Eminent Member

Progress:

Fair enough on your rebuttal. I see where you are coming from!

I hope you'll accept my re-treading of this idea into the idea that...
where I was coming from was the idea that ... like how Dr. Mew informs us that part of proper posture is that by repetition it becomes a conditioned response.  So through his videos, he asserts that the micro-swallow/mew-push swallow over time will reinforce and create a conditioned response to maintain proper posture.

in the same way 'that you know automatically to hit the brakes if someone walks in front of your car' or however he puts it. He says, hey -- everytime you see a door, or touch a door handle -- swallow. and over time you can train your mind to do it unconsciously which is part of the important work of changing posture for good.

Now i maintain that certain languages may have more natural/unintentional myofunctional applications than others.
However,

the route i wish to take given your reply, is that I believe that certain languages... if their function causes a person to utilize proper posture,

(in the same way that Dr. John Mew says the way to touch the spot/tongue to the palate to the roof of the mouth is to say the letter N. Just springboarding off that one idea by itself -- perhaps languages that utilize the letter N have a higher likelihood of creating or reinforcing conditioned posture)
then over time they make condition their bodies to adhere to proper posture more likely than other languages would or could.  Especially in the modern world in which our environmental norm is so much outside the anthropoligical whatever whatever that we are being encouraged to return to.

Proper posture is more important than speech for development, but I maintain it is plausible that speech (or the mechanism by which that language operates off of) can be vital for reinforcing the correct posture.

I maintain it, sir!

Addendum:
tinfoil hat time:

Regardless of whether or not that concept listed above is credible or true -- I am playing with the idea if there is an unonscious mechanism that our brains [knowing what is best for our evolution/development/optimal functioning] are built to conceptualize and create language so as to create the correct posture.
In short, what if all the spoken languages in the world designed itself so as to ensure that our bodies, minds, and skulls developed in the correct way?

But how is that possible??

In the same way that it is said that our bodies are far more amazing than we give it credit for. That our bodies and our minds will do whatever it takes for us to survive.  That it is postulated that the reason men's physical developments strengthwise is so rapid , despite it contradicting everything that bodybuilding theorycrafting dictates, is because the body and unconscious mind knows that said person is in danger and defies the laws of nature (exaggeration) in order to cause that person to become strong enough to survive. Does that make sense? The body knows it is in a dangerous situation, and forces the body to adapt no matter what.  Thereby growing rapidly in a way that defies conventional medical science which cannot be explained by things like 'inmates get jacked just because its the only thing they have to do with their time.' No. Rest is still necessary. Yet these inmates are in constant breakdown and they shouldnt be growing stronger in the way they do. (This is adapted from another person's theory on this. More his words than mine.) People lift cars in times of need for survival, or if on the correct drugs.  Some believe in the stories of the Wim Hof method in order to counteract hypothermic conditions out of a will to survive, alone.  Etc.  There is credence to the idea that the body and mind can do amazing things together if it is convinced it is in our best interests.

I'd be interested if the formation ORIGINAL FORMATION of all language taps into a collective unconscious or personal unconscious which then designs itself so as to reinforce or teach proper posture because the brain understands on a level beyond our conscious wisdom that the repetition of *those* sounds and movements will give us the greatest chance of survival/prosperity.

Tinfoil hat off.

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Posted : 13/01/2018 4:45 pm
Apollo liked
Gregory
Eminent Member

In addition; 

another argument in this realm of thought Is

according to Myofunctional therapists, there are two areas in our mouth that stimulate important nerves. 

One nerve is stimulated by your tongue when it presses against the SPOT. 

The other is the vagus nerve which is, supposedly activated by your posterior third of the tongue being up against the roof of your tongue. 

 

I wasn’t told the name of this study, but there is a case of a woman with Parkinson’s improving her mobility and motor function after stimulating the spot for 3 months. Tested on day 1 and then 3 months later. Remarkable difference :

another regarding the spot — was apparently anothe elderly woman was asked to stimulate the spot manually with her thumb, and the differences in her were observed. 

 

Re the vagus nerve. I know there is a surgical implant designed to send signals and stimulate the vagus nerve for sufferers of epilepsy or seizures or something like that. 

Vagus nerve stimulation is also associated with oxytocin and neurochemical release/production.

It is plausible that there is a biological mechanism in play which reinforces proper tongue position through the release of oxytocin via vagus nerve stimulation through the tongue position. Is that not plausible? Through a biological reward circuitry.

then my next argument is that different languages and speech will trigger this reward system more often than others.

Hello vs anyeong haseo. What movements are involved? Will one language over time stimulate the reward circuitry more often?

Now fair counterpoint is that vagus stimulation might be rare in conversation — I wouldn’t know , I’m [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] tongue tied.

The reward system of these nerves conditioning proper posture. The language conditioning stimulation of these nerves.

then to 

language/speech conditioning proper posture.

The proper tongue posture and tongue being influenced by the day to say habits including speech. 

More or less that is my curiosity. I’m stopping there for now.

I’ve no sources for those claimed studies. 

Done. 

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Posted : 13/01/2018 5:31 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member

Maybe you're right Progress. I definitely respect your experience, but I'm not sure how you can make such definitive statements about any of this. Aren't we all still trying to figure out what influences craniofacial dystrophy based on personal experience, expert opinion, and anecdotal evidence? I don't think there are any randomized control trials teaching twins different languages from birth and monitoring for changes in facial development. I have seen studies showing infants lose the ability to distinguish certain speech sounds as early as six months based on the language they are exposed to, before they even say their first word. So, much of the difficulty for adults in producing non-native phonemes is receptively distinguishing the difference between the sounds they want to produce rather than expressively producing the sounds with their mouths. It's not just that the kids are better learners. When we teach kids English as a second language, we often use tongue twisters to help them master the mouth shapes required to pronounce English words. As Gregory pointed out, Dr. Mew says that form follows function, and language seems to be a functional, habitual behavior. A couple push swallows doesn't reverse a lifetime of suckling your food, but over time this change has an impact. Of course saying a few words doesn't change the structure of your face or a growing child's face, but it seems to me our whole philosophy is that our oral posture impacts our facial form, and I'm just extrapolating a little to say that differences in language or culturally-specific facial expressions might have some small influence on oral posture over the course of our developmental years, which are generally overshadowed by issues such as mouth breathing, suckle swallowing, etc. However, all other factors being equal, maybe the impact is perceptible. Intuitively, it just seems to me that if I had been producing a sound like the click consonant that required me to get that posterior part of my tongue up flush against my palate, hundreds or thousands of times a day, it would probably be more natural for me as adult to keep that part of my tongue seated in that position. However, I think we have to accept the ambiguity that questions like this don't have a demonstrable answer.

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Posted : 13/01/2018 5:51 pm
Gregory liked
Progress
Member Moderator

Gregory I agree with some of the theories you brought forward, but since the messages are getting so long and dissecting posts into separately quoted paragraphs is so painstaking on this forum, I too will disengage from this conversation. It was entertaining to learn about your point of view.

 

Same goes for you Apollo. It is good to have people around who do not shy away from theoretizing about concepts that are a little out there. 

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Posted : 13/01/2018 5:59 pm
Apollo and Gregory liked
Gregory
Eminent Member
Re: Gregory I agree with some of the theories you brought forward, but since the messages are getting so long and dissecting posts into separately quoted paragraphs is so painstaking on this forum, I too will disengage from this conversation. It was entertaining to learn about your point of view.

Same goes for you Apollo. It is good to have people around who do not shy away from theoretizing about concepts that are a little out there. 

Fair! I mean I enjoyed writing about it, _Progress,
and appreciate that you brought it up, Apollo!

Nevertheless, I gotta admit that talking about it doesn't quite hold the same practical discussion that the community is interested in.  I realized that the same amount of time discussing mewing technique or other postural tips may be better.
Still, appreciated the musing, but now I'm back onto the mewing.

 

Disengaging.

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Posted : 13/01/2018 6:59 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member

Thanks for the interesting discussion Gregory and Progress!

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Posted : 13/01/2018 9:02 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Progress

dissecting posts into separately quoted paragraphs is so painstaking on this forum

I'll see if I can fix this somehow. 

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Posted : 17/01/2018 8:14 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: TGW
Posted by: Progress

dissecting posts into separately quoted paragraphs is so painstaking on this forum

I'll see if I can fix this somehow. 

That would be great

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Posted : 18/01/2018 1:57 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

Here's an article supporting this theory published in the journal Phonetica:

https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/84159

Language-Specific Articulatory Settings: Evidence from Inter-Utterance Rest Position

Gick B.a, b · Wilson I.a · Koch K.a · Cook C.a

The possible existence of language-specific articulatory settings (underlying or default articulator positions) has long been discussed, but these have proven elusive to direct measurement. This paper presents two experiments using X-ray data of 5 English and 5 French subjects linking articulatory setting to speech rest position, which is measurable without segmental interference. Results of the first experiment show that speech rest position is significantly different across languages at 5 measurement locations in the vocal tract, and is similar to previously described language-specific articulatory settings. The second experiment shows that the accuracy of achievement of speech rest position is similar to that of a specified vowel target (/i/). These results have implications for the phonetics and phonology of neutral vowels, segmental nventories, and L2 acquisition.

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Posted : 21/05/2018 3:04 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Eh. I don't know if I buy it. It's not like New Yorkers of Italian descent all lf a sudden stop looking like their ancestors just because they stopped speaking Italian. I actually look more like my ancestors now after adopting proper posture and I don't speak the language they did (not even a language in the same family). So this is one I don't think is significant.

Truth is, all countries have people with ideal and unideal facial development. And within each country you have both long faced and short faced phenotypes, and both speak the same language. What I think is more ideal for development is whether certain populations have a high amount of physical activity  

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Posted : 21/05/2018 4:15 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Gregory

In addition; 

another argument in this realm of thought Is

according to Myofunctional therapists, there are two areas in our mouth that stimulate important nerves. 

One nerve is stimulated by your tongue when it presses against the SPOT. 

The other is the vagus nerve which is, supposedly activated by your posterior third of the tongue being up against the roof of your tongue. 

 

I wasn’t told the name of this study, but there is a case of a woman with Parkinson’s improving her mobility and motor function after stimulating the spot for 3 months. Tested on day 1 and then 3 months later. Remarkable difference :

another regarding the spot — was apparently anothe elderly woman was asked to stimulate the spot manually with her thumb, and the differences in her were observed. 

 

Re the vagus nerve. I know there is a surgical implant designed to send signals and stimulate the vagus nerve for sufferers of epilepsy or seizures or something like that. 

Vagus nerve stimulation is also associated with oxytocin and neurochemical release/production.

It is plausible that there is a biological mechanism in play which reinforces proper tongue position through the release of oxytocin via vagus nerve stimulation through the tongue position. Is that not plausible? Through a biological reward circuitry.

then my next argument is that different languages and speech will trigger this reward system more often than others.

Hello vs anyeong haseo. What movements are involved? Will one language over time stimulate the reward circuitry more often?

Now fair counterpoint is that vagus stimulation might be rare in conversation — I wouldn’t know , I’m [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] tongue tied.

The reward system of these nerves conditioning proper posture. The language conditioning stimulation of these nerves.

then to 

language/speech conditioning proper posture.

The proper tongue posture and tongue being influenced by the day to say habits including speech. 

More or less that is my curiosity. I’m stopping there for now.

I’ve no sources for those claimed studies. 

Done. 

During a breastfeeding session, the child will have their posterior third rhymically pressed with the tongue, with oxytocin and other neurotransmitters elevating for the child and mom as well.

I noticed my daughter had her tongue resting on the roof of her mouth at nearly all times at around one years old, but she wasn't speaking much of a language other than mainly baby babble at that point with some dozen English words infrequently peppered in here and there, nor was she even walking until nearly 14mo. I believe it's mainly breastfeeding that set up a chain of events that culminate in effortless perfect posture, lending toward increased physical activity, resulting in a kind of positive feedback loop that helps to protect the ideal development even perhaps in the face of various environmental insults (allergies, injuries, various modern-day insults [eg too much sitting, motor vehicle accidents, food too soft etc] etc)

But I wonder if it could be useful to mimic some unique effect of language with exercises to vibrate your lips and tongue. Like babies do with "raspberries" as I believe they're called. Clicking will produce a strong and short vibration. Rolling R, etc. Vibration and the sounds produced, I have heard as per eastern ideas of bone development, promote bone growth. And then vibration is linked to bone growth with those vibration plates used for weight loss and osteoporosis. Eventual results could be stronger and more functional lips and tongue, perhaps encouraging teeth to move, and aiding palate suture separation.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 21/05/2018 5:52 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
 
But I wonder if it could be useful to mimic some unique effect of language with exercises to vibrate your lips and tongue. Like babies do with "raspberries" as I believe they're called. Clicking will produce a strong and short vibration. Rolling R, etc. Vibration and the sounds produced, I have heard as per eastern ideas of bone development, promote bone growth. And then vibration is linked to bone growth with those vibration plates used for weight loss and osteoporosis. Eventual results could be stronger and more functional lips and tongue, perhaps encouraging teeth to move, and aiding palate suture separation.
I think vocalizations might be one way to incorporate vibration as discussed in this thread: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/extracorporeal-shock-wave-therapy/#post-971

"Om" chanting is supposed to stimulate the vagus nerve, encouraging a parasympathetic state that some have suggested is necessary for relaxation and separation of cranial sutures.

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Posted : 21/05/2018 6:00 pm
andread24
Active Member

on the same subject, mewing for 5+ months induced a noticeable speech impediment.

Now the "gl" sound in the italian word "maglione" (sweater), when i pronounce it sounds just like "maione"

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdhG0rV3uI

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Posted : 22/05/2018 6:26 am
Sclera
Estimable Member

@andread24 This might have to do with needing to retrain your tongue if you're not used to the changes in the muscle and maxilla upswing. I have also noticed a change in my accent, but I consider it an improvement instead of impediment. My vowels have become less round, and the sound feels like it's closer to my lips instead of my throat, if that makes any sense. But I now need to make a conscious effort to create sharp consonants, but it's becoming easier the more I do it.

This has begun since I've started focusing on tongue exercises. I never knew how weak my tongue was until I started strengthening it, and noticing how it's changed the way I talk. I'm needing to constantly adjust as my mouth changes.

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Posted : 22/05/2018 12:38 pm
Peter
Active Member

Sorry for being a necromancer, but I've been wondering the same, Apollo, Makes sense, given that mewing works.

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Posted : 10/07/2018 4:34 pm
Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

Language may have a role. Still if you consider English and three countries where it is spoken, Britain, USA and Australia, and compare your general impressions of teeth in those populations you will probably recognise that British teeth are notoriously bad and the others not. We know this is not to do with dentistry but is  moral. I don’t think accents account for the difference. I don’t think the American diet is harder chewing than the British though Australian diet may be. 

I have been wondering some time without success what it is about British morals that makes British Teeth. Given that British morals are about etiquette rather than any self nurture it seems a crying shame for British people to be doing this. We are in large numbers succeeding in ruining our faces, bodies, health and happiness all to appear polite. Just pathetically sad.

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Posted : 10/07/2018 5:05 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

 

In this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDD7bQTbVsk ), the linguist who created the languages for Game of Thrones identifies five places where sounds are generated to create speech: labial (red), coronal (blue), velar (green), uvular (yellow), and glottal (purple). Labial sounds are produced with the lips. Coronal sounds are produced with the tip or blade of the tongue around the incisive papilla. Velar sounds are produced with the dorsum of the tongue against the soft palate. Uvular sounds are produced with the posterior tongue at or around the uvula. Glottal sounds are produced by the glottis obstructing airflow. Phonetics has even more granularly defined landmarks, but I found the overview in the video interesting. I'm not suggesting we should all go learn to speak Dothraki, but it seems reasonable to me that people who speak languages with more velar and uvular sounds might have better development and control in the posterior tongue, which could facilitate better oral posture.

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Posted : 20/05/2019 9:08 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Odys

Language may have a role. Still if you consider English and three countries where it is spoken, Britain, USA and Australia, and compare your general impressions of teeth in those populations you will probably recognise that British teeth are notoriously bad and the others not. We know this is not to do with dentistry but is  moral. I don’t think accents account for the difference. I don’t think the American diet is harder chewing than the British though Australian diet may be. 

I have been wondering some time without success what it is about British morals that makes British Teeth. Given that British morals are about etiquette rather than any self nurture it seems a crying shame for British people to be doing this. We are in large numbers succeeding in ruining our faces, bodies, health and happiness all to appear polite. Just pathetically sad.

On average Brits seem to have the largest chins in Europe. I wonder if they use their mentalis muscle more on average. For example your average Brit has a larger chin than your average Spaniard or even average Scandinavian. 

 
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Posted : 21/05/2019 2:30 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

This totally makes sense to me. 

Look at Ukrainians, Romanians and all of the other more, 'aggressive tongue engagement languages' and compare them with UKs English, specifically the accent practiced in England.

Specifically how you pronounce words with 'r'

UKs English and specifically yhe accent is very passive on tongue engagement. Just changing from an American accent to a UK accent you'll notice a big difference.

Watch a Romanian speaking and try to make the sounds, it's a very aggressive language. I've also noticed they are well developed facial wise, there's a big population of them here in Portugal working. 

 

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Posted : 16/06/2019 7:12 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

Also Arabic is very aggressive on tongue forces. 

Also, Brasilians and Chinese languages for example are on the least aggressive tongue engagement side.

Again, listen to some videos of Chinese mandarin speaking and you'll notice that the tongue doesn't really touch the palate a lot.

Now mimic Ukrainian speaking and ull notice how much harder you press your tongue on the palate to let the sounds out. 

Chinese Sound comes from an open mouth alotand mandible swinging while talking. They talk in a class 3 almost. 

Starting to think that's why the class 3 rates both in China and Brasil are so high compared to other countrys. 

Language has a big importance on mid face development for sure. 

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Posted : 16/06/2019 7:29 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

I think language has more of an importance than diet.

Poor Ukrainian and Romanian people are still well developed and eat a soft diet I think. And they re rlly poor, not American poor. 

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Posted : 16/06/2019 7:46 am
FanaticMind
Active Member

I believe russian may be benefitial if language changes something, easily the highest precentage of well developed people i've seen were russian, and they to my knowledge aren't even eating hard foods.

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Posted : 19/06/2019 8:17 pm
futurechad
New Member

I speak hebrew, spanish and english and my tounge posture is horrible and also my face lol

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Posted : 20/06/2019 11:55 am
Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

I think conversion to Islam would be a good adjunct to Mewing. There seems to be a particularly strong emphasis on the “ll” sound in their chants. I remember working with a Palestinian man many years ago who mocked our narrow English jaws. At the time I was not at all sure that his enormous wide smile was anything to be proud of.

I attended a workshop with James d’Angelo that made particular emphasis on that ‘ll’ sound. He comes at this from a different tradition of mantras. One of his books is called Seed Sounds for Chakras. I was already mewing at that time and was interested in what he said from that perspective. Generally I think vibration is a very useful tool for realignment. Pretty much all religions have singing or chanting playing a large role which is likely one level to be about stimulating the vagus nerve and others so as to ensure devotees leave feeling great.

I think the worst thing you can do is speak English like an Englishman and not sing.

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Posted : 20/06/2019 2:07 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @odys

I think conversion to Islam would be a good adjunct to Mewing. There seems to be a particularly strong emphasis on the “ll” sound in their chants. I remember working with a Palestinian man many years ago who mocked our narrow English jaws. At the time I was not at all sure that his enormous wide smile was anything to be proud of.

I attended a workshop with James d’Angelo that made particular emphasis on that ‘ll’ sound. He comes at this from a different tradition of mantras. One of his books is called Seed Sounds for Chakras. I was already mewing at that time and was interested in what he said from that perspective. Generally I think vibration is a very useful tool for realignment. Pretty much all religions have singing or chanting playing a large role which is likely one level to be about stimulating the vagus nerve and others so as to ensure devotees leave feeling great.

I think the worst thing you can do is speak English like an Englishman and not sing.

Do you mean the "ll" sound like in "Allah" or "Yallah"? Angela Caine also mentions the importance of an "ll" sound in Welsh, but I think it is a particular sound called a "voiceless alvelor lateral fricative."

From an article called "VoiceGym: A Tool to Involve the Patient for Long Term Treatment Success" ( https://11644276-dc12-4a69-9ae2-823aaa54437f.filesusr.com/ugd/24ee32_fe2fa06178784f39803b2df90215f2c2.pdf ):

"Interestingly, before I was auditioned and accepted for this training I had spoken and sung in Welsh, the speaking of which encourages the tongue to operate in just the position the clinicians approved of. The ‘LL’ in Llanelly can only be articulated correctly with the styloglossus muscle – responsible for pulling the tongue back and up into natural resting position – in major contraction. Is this the secret of the great welsh voice?"

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Posted : 01/05/2020 10:27 pm
Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

I am not an Arabic speaker. My comment, rather flippant for one I meant seriously, was based on the sound in pronouncing Allah and generally overhearing that sound in Arabic speech. I think of it as an Ullllllllll sound. This is the sound that we were invited to make in the workshop I mentioned. It was a stepping stone to the chant Lam which relates to the root chakra. The chant for each chakra only changes in the first syllable.

The connection between the two ends of the spine resonated, hee hee, with me because I came to Mewing as someone who has suffered pain at the bottom of my spine, primarily in the sacrum, for many years. In retrospect I recognise that as a result of craniofacial dystrophy I experienced pain elsewhere but these pains were overridden by the sacral pain. I have been successful in fixing the back pain.

In attempting this Ullll sound I realised it was quite foreign to me and it struck me that most of us use our tongues in speech more than in eating and that this might account for national differences in teeth. However much it may be true that speaking a particular language, with a particular accent, may in the course of one’s life form the mouth, we here are engaged in a remedial exercise and need to accelerate things and so the chanting of Ullllll at length seems more likely to be of help than language lessons or intermittent religious devotion. I have not followed this line of thought diligently so I cannot comment on its efficacy. I have found it impossible to keep doing all the things that I have found helpful in play. I have left the selection to instinct. Reintroducing old tactics is often especially rewarding. I think there are diminishing returns in many. The main reason I have proceeded with a multiplicity of tactics was that I thought this would protect me somewhat from doing myself harm. Anyhow I shall revisit chanting.

I was focussed at the time of posting this a couple of years back on getting vibration into my palate by various means to assist with getting movement and growth. I still believe it to be helpful. The article you posted-very interesting thank you-introduces some other thoughts on setting tongue posture and the quality and range of sound one can make which also seem to be helpful in our work. A voice which is pleasing to the ear and resonates creates much more vibration in the head and by my casual observation seems often to lead to a better looking face.

Before I came across Mewing and was merely a back sufferer in a yoga class in Greece (well a week long thing, which by luck the teacher, having asked for a description of our physical problems in advance, based on mine) I was introduced to the idea of the voice as a plumb line. It is often very difficult in this work to be sure which is the correct direction to head in. I have found that the twists and tilts that my body has adopted in accommodating problems elsewhere have been held so long that they assert that they are right and corrections feel quite wrong. This yoga teacher had me do a Ngg sound created up above the palate that he said was African. I seem to remember thinking I did it quite well compared to others, which cannot have been true because at that time I could not put my tongue on the roof of my mouth. However, one thing about appeared true. By moving the spine in a seated posture it told me what my straightest achievable vertical was. It was rather like tuning a radio by a dial. Even if I was mistaken as to how I sounded relative to others I could accurately tell which my best sound/best posture was. That is to say that the yoga teacher’s sight seemed to agree with the internal verdict of the sound I was making.

The worst case mentioned in my earlier post, the Englishman who does not sing, is of course me. I stopped at about 10 years old. My voice is much improved by this work. I will sing when I am finished and not just to know that I am.

 

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Posted : 03/05/2020 3:47 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @odys

I have found it impossible to keep doing all the things that I have found helpful in play. I have left the selection to instinct. Reintroducing old tactics is often especially rewarding. I think there are diminishing returns in many. The main reason I have proceeded with a multiplicity of tactics was that I thought this would protect me somewhat from doing myself harm. Anyhow I shall revisit chanting.

I'm in the same situation, and have been recently rebooting my routine. This is what renewed my interest in vocalizations. I got sciatic pain a few years ago from herniating a disc between L5 and S1 and occasionally still get a nagging ache down my leg. I've debated seeing a cranial osteopath wondering if manipulation to both my head and pelvis could be synergistically beneficial.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 7:44 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @roflcopters

This totally makes sense to me. 

Look at Ukrainians, Romanians and all of the other more, 'aggressive tongue engagement languages' and compare them with UKs English, specifically the accent practiced in England.

Specifically how you pronounce words with 'r'

UKs English and specifically yhe accent is very passive on tongue engagement. Just changing from an American accent to a UK accent you'll notice a big difference.

Watch a Romanian speaking and try to make the sounds, it's a very aggressive language. I've also noticed they are well developed facial wise, there's a big population of them here in Portugal working. 

 

Disagree, I have met lots of Romanians and lots of them have the short face overbite combo. 

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Posted : 10/05/2020 10:29 pm