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The tongue can't possibly push, it can only get pulled.  

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auxiliary7
Eminent Member

We should talk about this, I don't understand why many people on this forum are still duping themselves. The tongue isn't a muscle that can push itself upwards, muscle contract and become shorter. So you're probably wondering if I'm such a genius how'd I figure the tongue goes upwards? It gets pulled by the muscles above it, connecting to the tongue on the side. They're called the Palatoglossus muscle and the Styloglossus muscle. The Palatoglossus pulls the back of the tongue upwards, the Styloglossus pulls the sides of the tongue upwards.

That's not the only problem, let's assume you guys are right and somehow the tongue pushes the maxilla upwards. This is a bad thing.

This is the nasal cavity, if you were to actually be able to push the soft palate upwards you would make it tighter, preventing nose breathing. Not only that but you'd also push the bones above into the brain. The whole theory just makes absolutely no sense.

Instead people, me including, all report better breathing. I've had such a tremendous increase in breathing volume/time, it's the worth it alone. So what actually happens? Now what happens is the tongue pulls gets retracted backwards and pulled upwards by the Styloglossus muscle. At the same time there's counter-force either from the tongue muscles below or from the muscles connecting to the hyoid bone, or perhaps from the soft tissue itself connected to the tongue and the throat. My personal experience is that the muscle that pushes the lower jaw forward is the one responsible for the forward counter-force. Either way this counter-force in two directions causes the back palate to slightly fall downwards and slightly get pulled forwards, pull the upper maxilla down and pushing the lower maxilla forward. This way the narrow spot in the nasal canal gets expanded and eventually there's a possibility that even more space for the eyes and the brain become created. At the same time since the tongue gets pulled flat onto the teeth there's a slight increase in IMW, depending on the width of the tongue to the current IMW ratio.

 

Really it's that simple, I don't understand why someone could ever imagine the palate moving upwards...

 

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Posted : 17/09/2019 1:45 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I do not think the Mews ever use the word "push". The idea is more that proper contact of the tongue, palate, and occlusion signal correct growth. 

I agree that many people are operating under the idea that the maxilla needs to be pushed/pulled into position - rather, it needs to be grown to the correct full size and shape. 

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Posted : 17/09/2019 2:02 pm
ohwhatthehell
Eminent Member

You are missing the forest for the trees here. It's not relevant whether or not the muscles themselves are "pushing" or "pulling". The only thing that matters, so far as anyone here is concerned, is that we are able to exert pressure on the palate at the correct angle. It is absolutely the case that we are able to do so, so I really don't see the point in debating it. I can clearly feel the pressure being exerted against my palate, as I'm sure most others who are serious about mewing can. I've also seen great progress, so I'm hardly holding onto any delusions.

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Posted : 17/09/2019 6:55 pm
RamonT liked
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@ohwhatthehell

maxilla progress?

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Posted : 18/09/2019 4:30 am
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@admin

then how can adults improve the angle of our maxilla? i find it amazing that we still don't know this in 2019. 

it's so frustrating cause our faces are here, we have time, money and dedication, medical professionals all around the world researching, and yet we still don't know. 

like i'm almost 21 and I feel like time is running out for me. I don't want nothing under my eyes for the rest of my life. 

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Posted : 18/09/2019 4:33 am
auxiliary7
Eminent Member

@20_year_old_mewing

How about you start mewing then? Rest mouth in neutral occlusion and just pull the sides of the mid/back tongue upwards.

@ohwhatthehell

It's not that simple, the pressure you feel is directed downwards and forwards. Either way my argument isn't that proper mewing doesn't work, but how it works, so you're arguing about the wrong thing.

@admin

Disagree fully. Read my full-post for comprehension. X-Rays show rotation and positional change, not growth, unless it's x-ray of a person going through puberty. Also since most growth occurs during puberty your theory means it would barely make changes in adults, since there's a very slow growth.

A lot of people indeed think the maxilla gets pushed by the tongue, but as I said before the tongue can't push unless it thrusts, which isn't mewing and won't even produce enough force. The tongue can't pull either. The muscles around the tongue worth with the tongue to create a pulling force on the middle-back of the tongue, pressing it onto the palate(leading to IMW expansion depending on the tongue-to-IMW ratio). At the same time the back palate gets pulled and also slightly pushed forward which causes the front maxilla to move even more slightly forward while pulling the maxilla very slightly downwards. Keyword is slightly.

Either way if only the maxilla moved there wouldn't be improve in breathing which many experience. It makes the most sense to assume there's a positional and rotational change with corresponding changes to the rest of the face as well.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/09/2019 4:56 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: @auxiliary7

@admin

Disagree fully. Read my full-post for comprehension. X-Rays show rotation and positional change, not growth, unless it's x-ray of a person going through puberty. Also since most growth occurs during puberty your theory means it would barely make changes in adults, since there's a very slow growth.

A lot of people indeed think the maxilla gets pushed by the tongue, but as I said before the tongue can't push unless it thrusts, which isn't mewing and won't even produce enough force. The tongue can't pull either. The muscles around the tongue worth with the tongue to create a pulling force on the middle-back of the tongue, pressing it onto the palate(leading to IMW expansion depending on the tongue-to-IMW ratio). At the same time the back palate gets pulled and also slightly pushed forward which causes the front maxilla to move even more slightly forward while pulling the maxilla very slightly downwards. Keyword is slightly.

Either way if only the maxilla moved there wouldn't be improve in breathing which many experience. It makes the most sense to assume there's a positional and rotational change with corresponding changes to the rest of the face as well.

I'm just approaching from a different angle - trying to restart the growth that was not finished at the end of puberty. The mechanisms and genes for growth are all there, just needing to be reactivated. 

I think you're correct about the muscular function of the tongue and all the muscles that support and surround it - it's not designed for thrusting and pushing forward. In my opinion.

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Posted : 18/09/2019 7:36 am
xDJ
 xDJ
Active Member

@admin

What about the "Mew push swallow" vids? Pt. 1 & 2

https://youtu.be/gcI8CvoFxfQ

https://youtu.be/lKaW3zNIuWY

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Posted : 18/09/2019 8:36 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

This is why I never liked the term forward growth. 

It also explaines why people with very short faces (teeth close to nose) look recessed in profile. 

Ideally I think there is a point where the maxilla is just the right distance downward and upward. This is where proper facial balance between bony and soft tissue is achieved. Maxilla too far up and you have a pug face. Maxilla too far down and you look weak and tired.  

It's not about forward growth or upward growth but IDEAL growth. 

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Posted : 18/09/2019 2:42 pm
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@auxiliary7

thanks for responding. Just to clarify though. I don't understand what Ur theory is. Why is lightly doing it better than doing it with medium force? i'm talking about resting the front 2 thirds on pallet, and forcing the tongue up with medium force onto the back third.  Why is the difference between  this and what u say? why is light force better than medium or hard force?

so you do believe the palagossus muslce theory?

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Posted : 18/09/2019 7:52 pm
auxiliary7
Eminent Member

@admin

I've personally had much trouble with mewing when it was so simple all because I've read every single person say push.

Why do you think adults have some kind of a undergrowth? To stimulate growth of the bone you would have to apply forces on it which would surely move it's position and rotate it earlier than growth would occur.

@xdj

Mike Mew is simply wrong, as I said the tongue can only thrust but that's very weak and it'd be counter-productive to push maxilla upwards as well as impossible because of the first reason. What's the point of pushing bone and soft tissue into the brain anyway from an evolutionary point? It would also make breathing much harder. I've been focusing on keeping neutral occlusion and doing the "sing" type of mewing with high amounts of forces and I've noticed easily way more breathing. In fact over the last 1-2 years I've noticed pretty great IMW improvements, fwhr improvement and a very big improvement in breathing volume to the point where I can finally exercise aerobically with just nose breathing. But in total my face structures looks the same in terms of attractiveness. Mew line is also shorter now, but still not good enough. I am also able to breath through nose in cold weather now, before I couldn't.

For example my cheekbones look slightly more pronounced and my chin is slightly sharper, the biggest changes I've noticed is in the mew line. But my face still looks approximately how it always did, the changes feel very slow. I'd reckon it would take 5-10 years to notice significant changes.

 

I think a good alternative to mewing is chewing a lot and swallowing properly with teeth in contact.

 

@eddiemoney

Again I think it's not growth or stimulation of growth, but rather the movement of the bones and soft tissue, and their rotation.

 

@20_year_old_mewing

I've never claimed anything about doint it lightly or with medium force. If you use the word "sing" you'll know which muscles you should use, at the same time you should keep your teeth shut. Don't clench them though, just keep light contact.

And I don't believe any theory, this is just what I've noticed : That the tongue can't push and even if it did it would counter-productive to breathing. It's also not a belief but a fact.

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Posted : 19/09/2019 3:31 am
RamonT
Trusted Member
Posted by: @ohwhatthehell

You are missing the forest for the trees here. It's not relevant whether or not the muscles themselves are "pushing" or "pulling". The only thing that matters, so far as anyone here is concerned, is that we are able to exert pressure on the palate at the correct angle. It is absolutely the case that we are able to do so, so I really don't see the point in debating it. I can clearly feel the pressure being exerted against my palate, as I'm sure most others who are serious about mewing can. I've also seen great progress, so I'm hardly holding onto any delusions.

Totally agree with you.

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Posted : 19/09/2019 5:16 pm