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The Crane  

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PaperBag
Estimable Member

What are your thoughts on the Crane? (the facepulling appliance - click here for their site)
There doesn't seem to be much discussion about it over the years, so I'm unsure if everyone thinks it's bad or almost nobody tried it and interest diminished as a result. I know claimingpower used the Crane years ago, but he said he only used it while sleeping, which probably means the forces were not going where they needed to be. A criticism that comes up is that the forces are forward but not upward, although those posts were from years ago and sometimes reference an "older model" of the Crane. (I only heard about it last year and don't know what changes were made to the appliance over time) I emailed the website owner and she said it's "fully adjustable, so it will pull upward as well as forward." I also asked Ian Hedley (Patient Zero) for his thoughts and he said it's better than nothing but he prefers headgear-based appliances, but wasn't basing it off more than just his opinion.

I'm on the fence about pursuing the Crane, since it'd require finding someone else to oversee the treatment, getting the modified retainer, and I'd probably see an osteopath or something to replace the NCR sessions that are always recommended to do along with facepulling, as NCR is borderline nonexistent in Canada.

On a side note, has anyone here ever mentioned facepulling or anything about orthotropics to their orthodontist/dentist? It seems like anyone whose job is to push jaws and teeth backwards would never be open to even talking about the reverse. Surprisingly, many of the local chiropractors and osteopaths I've phoned recently are vaguely familiar with the term facepulling and knew what I was trying to ask them about. Cranial work is their profession, obviously, but I didn't expect them to know of a term that's usually associated with self-treatment with hockey helmets.

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Posted : 29/03/2018 12:04 am
Yay
 Yay
Guest

It’s interesting because the latest design by Mew involve a neck brace and device to pull - if this can be adjusted it might not be a bad path to go! 

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Posted : 29/03/2018 1:02 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

I have never tried the actual crane system myself, but I have experimented with both a DIY neck brace-mounted extra-oral traction and a DIY headgear-mounted extra-oral traction. I have written about that in the thread on my routine:

Posted by: Apollo

 Dr. Mew's more recent versions are stabilized by a neck brace rather than a head piece. I bought a neck brace and tried to make it work, but found there to be too much play between the fixation points and head motions, so I went back to a head-mounted strategy.

Posted by: Apollo
 
I like the idea that the reciprocal force isn't pressing on any of your other cranial bones when it is pulling on the maxilla, but I couldn't achieve enough stability between my head and the attachment points. So I went back to basics and decided to use a helmet like Plato. 

 I recently came across an old thread on the BTM forum. In it both Dr. Mew and Claimingpower identify the same issue of too much play between the fixation points when using the actual crane system ( http://breakthematrix.createaforum.com/therapies/could-you-please-give-advice-to-a-doctor-trying-to-perfect-maxillary-protraction/15/ ).

Posted by: Mike Mew

I did try the old crane which was anchored to the chest and was too mobile compared to the head, but have a hunch that I could make a better design based on the RAMPA japan- not much written in English on it- but I've personally seen the best facial results in adults from it.

Posted by: CP

I stopped using the crane because I was only wearing while I slept, and I felt it was too unstable to use while I slept, was worried that it was pulling on the maxilla with uneven forces. 

These are old posts from 2014, and Dr. Mew's video with the neck brace-mounted MewVector system is from 2017, so he must have thought he could achieve more stability with his own design. However, I suspect it is too difficult to adequately immobilize the head with a neck brace to avoid unequal traction on the different elastics when you move around while sleeping, etc. 

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Posted : 29/03/2018 4:14 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member
Posted by: Yay

It’s interesting because the latest design by Mew involve a neck brace and device to pull - if this can be adjusted it might not be a bad path to go! 

Wasn't aware of that, that's good to hear. If either device could actually stabilize properly, it sounds like the neck is a good anchor when having good posture is part of what makes it work. (as far as I can tell)

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Posted : 29/03/2018 4:44 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member
Posted by: Apollo

I have never tried the actual crane system myself, but I have experimented with both a DIY neck brace-mounted extra-oral traction and a DIY headgear-mounted extra-oral traction. I have written about that in the thread on my routine:

Posted by: Apollo

 Dr. Mew's more recent versions are stabilized by a neck brace rather than a head piece. I bought a neck brace and tried to make it work, but found there to be too much play between the fixation points and head motions, so I went back to a head-mounted strategy.

Posted by: Apollo
 
I like the idea that the reciprocal force isn't pressing on any of your other cranial bones when it is pulling on the maxilla, but I couldn't achieve enough stability between my head and the attachment points. So I went back to basics and decided to use a helmet like Plato. 

 I recently came across an old thread on the BTM forum. In it both Dr. Mew and Claimingpower identify the same issue of too much play between the fixation points when using the actual crane system ( http://breakthematrix.createaforum.com/therapies/could-you-please-give-advice-to-a-doctor-trying-to-perfect-maxillary-protraction/15/ ).

Posted by: Mike Mew

I did try the old crane which was anchored to the chest and was too mobile compared to the head, but have a hunch that I could make a better design based on the RAMPA japan- not much written in English on it- but I've personally seen the best facial results in adults from it.

Posted by: CP

I stopped using the crane because I was only wearing while I slept, and I felt it was too unstable to use while I slept, was worried that it was pulling on the maxilla with uneven forces. 

These are old posts from 2014, and Dr. Mew's video with the neck brace-mounted MewVector system is from 2017, so he must have thought he could achieve more stability with his own design. However, I suspect it is too difficult to adequately immobilize the head with a neck brace to avoid unequal traction on the different elastics when you move around while sleeping, etc. 

I read your routine thread every so often but missed your post about trying the neck brace. Were you wearing it at all times of the day? Not having worn anything myself, I find it a bit hard to imagine how the fit of a neck brace that's supposed to immobilize the neck is so loose. This is with the chin tucked as well?
Claimingpower only using the Crane while asleep is probably why he didn't see any results with it because he likely slept on his side. Some time after that, he started working from home, so I don't know why he didn't give it another try when able to sit upright all day with nobody staring at him. I probably wouldn't ever wear it to sleep because I wouldn't be able to monitor myself possibly laying on my face for several hours, and don't really see how proper upward/forward force could happen when not being upright. (even when adopting back sleeping)

How is the helmet use going for you? The DIY-ness of it has always dissuaded me from trying, despite Plato and others' success. Ironically, using a professional appliance if being supervised by someone else, even retraction-hungry orthodontists, sounds more comforting than making my own gear.

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Posted : 29/03/2018 5:05 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: PaperBag
 
I read your routine thread every so often but missed your post about trying the neck brace. Were you wearing it at all times of the day? Not having worn anything myself, I find it a bit hard to imagine how the fit of a neck brace that's supposed to immobilize the neck is so loose. This is with the chin tucked as well?
Claimingpower only using the Crane while asleep is probably why he didn't see any results with it because he likely slept on his side. Some time after that, he started working from home, so I don't know why he didn't give it another try when able to sit upright all day with nobody staring at him. I probably wouldn't ever wear it to sleep because I wouldn't be able to monitor myself possibly laying on my face for several hours, and don't really see how proper upward/forward force could happen when not being upright. (even when adopting back sleeping)

How is the helmet use going for you? The DIY-ness of it has always dissuaded me from trying, despite Plato and others' success. Ironically, using a professional appliance if being supervised by someone else, even retraction-hungry orthodontists, sounds more comforting than making my own gear.

I was hoping to make something that I could wear throughout the night and a couple hours during the day. The neck brace does hold your head relatively straight, but deflections of even a couple millimeters can drastically reduce the tension of the elastics on one side of the head while increasing the tension on the other side. So it works if you are awake and conscious enough to avoid rotating or tilting your head from side to side. My helmet system has been pretty effective at keeping the tension consistent on all 5 of my elastics regardless of head movements, but unfortunately it becomes too uncomfortable to sleep in for more than a couple of hours at a time. I wake up with the skin numb on the back or side of my head depending the position I was sleeping in, and then roll over and fall back asleep, but it prevents me from getting good rest, and it is difficult to take off all 5 of the elastics when I am groggy in the middle of the night and want to get out of the thing. So I have just been completing sessions of 1 to 3 hours before bed most nights. It gives a nice pulling sensation, but I can't say if it is having any effect.

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Posted : 29/03/2018 5:24 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

What type of mouthpiece (like a retainer) are you using? I thought there would be only two hooks to have an elastic come from, not five.
1 to 3 hours sounds like enough time to do something, at least compared to Plato's helmet design where 30 minutes a day was apparently enough. (which is kind of suspect) Someone said the Crane should be worn like 14 hours a day? Not even most orthodontic appliances are recommended to be worn for that long.

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Posted : 30/03/2018 8:02 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: PaperBag

What type of mouthpiece (like a retainer) are you using? I thought there would be only two hooks to have an elastic come from, not five.
1 to 3 hours sounds like enough time to do something, at least compared to Plato's helmet design where 30 minutes a day was apparently enough. (which is kind of suspect) Someone said the Crane should be worn like 14 hours a day? Not even most orthodontic appliances are recommended to be worn for that long.

I am using a basic expander with headgear tubes and a facebow connected to attachment points modeled after the MewVector system. You can find videos on the orthotropics youtube channel (links in the thread on my routine). You could just use 2 anterior attachment points like Plato, but I wanted posterior upward vectors like Dr. Mew. Plato's theory suggests that shorter sessions are more effective because they prevent a sympathetic response that causes the body to tighten up and resist changes. This logic doesn't seem right to me, but I could be wrong.

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Posted : 30/03/2018 1:00 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

It's not like anyone who wore cervical headgear resisted changes because they wore it 8+ hours a day, I don't understand the logic of such a short duration for facepulling. Did Plato even move his face forward much? His results look good from the front, but not very apparent from a profile view.

I asked a few questions to the lab technician of the Crane, she said she'd get to them soon. I'll post her responses here if they give any more insight.

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Posted : 02/04/2018 3:11 am
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: PaperBag

Did Plato even move his face forward much? His results look good from the front, but not very apparent from a profile view.

Where did you find his profile before-and-after? I don't think I have seen that on either of his websites. We should add the profile pictures to the post about Plato in the success stories thread (@admin). It's a little difficult to compare because his head is slightly tilted down and there is brighter lighting in the "after" image, but you're right that his cheekbones don't look significantly different. Plato was also doing NCR in addition to facepulling. 

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Posted : 02/04/2018 6:45 pm
TGW liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

That photo was in a claimingpower article about facepulling. I can't remember having seen it on the site before, but it appeared in a Google search. claimingpower.com/facepulling

15-30 minutes a day should be nowhere near enough usage and/or the lack of proper posture during/after use discourages results. Body posture, but of course tongue posture as well. When waiting in McDonald's or wherever, I try to look at how everyone is standing. NOBODY is standing properly, they're all hunched over and these aren't just seniors. Seems like just handing someone a facepulling appliance wouldn't do a whole lot if the rest of their body is out of alignment as well. Wouldn't facepulling with forward head posture produce much less force compared to doing it with more of a chin tuck? None of what I'm saying is news, but still.

NCR apparently gave Plato more functional height (he didn't "grow" taller) by fixing his scoliosis, so maybe his body posture was quite good, but the above photo looks like he's craning his neck. Patient Zero has much better results, I thought he also did NCR and facepulling. Plato was using his braces as an anchor, maybe that's the cause?

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Posted : 02/04/2018 8:10 pm