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Teeth should NOT be in contact at rest!

alfio
Active Member

Hello everyone, I read this forum for a while and there is something that still is not clear to me: where does the notion come from that the teeth should be slightly in contact at rest?

I tried a little bit on the Internet, and all the sites I checked report information like "The teeth must not touch even accidentally, otherwise nociceptive stimuli arrive to the brain, which must interpret and respond to this contact;  another site says "In the rest condition, ie with the chewing muscles relaxed, the teeth should not be in contact but have a "free space" of about 2 millimeters"

I also saw a video of Dr. Mike Mew, who answers just such a question, around the minute 10.30 https://youtu.be/U3owXWaV-I0?list=LLqGuAXGDiIG5disWywaFtZA&t=627. If I understand correctly (English is not my first language), it says that the teeth should not be in contact, but slightly separated , but you can check yourself in the link I have attached.

This information is of fundamental importance, not only for meowing correctly, but especially for the health of the stomatognathic apparatus in general, so I would like to understand the sources that say that the teeth should touch. Thank you all

Quote
Topic starter Posted : 31/07/2018 10:54 am
Rockyp33 liked
James
Active Member

Good find. I was curious about this as well.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/07/2018 2:42 pm
alfio liked
Apollo
Reputable Member

Dr. Mew calls it a butterfly touch. The teeth should either be in light contact or slightly separated. They shouldn't be clenched and they shouldn't be far apart. This is important for maintaining the balance between the resting tone of the tongue pushing the jaws apart and the masseters holding them together. If you want to keep your teeth slightly separated that's fine. I usually keep my teeth lightly together.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/07/2018 2:57 pm
alfio
Active Member
Posted by: Apollo

Dr. Mew calls it a butterfly touch. The teeth should either be in light contact or slightly separated. They shouldn't be clenched and they shouldn't be far apart. This is important for maintaining the balance between the resting tone of the tongue pushing the jaws apart and the masseters holding them together. If you want to keep your teeth slightly separated that's fine. I usually keep my teeth lightly together.

How exactly do you keep them together? I imagine that the molars should touch lightly, the problem is how to do if you have a deep bite. 

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 31/07/2018 7:01 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

I don't have a deep bite. All of my teeth are in light contact when I hold them together. With a deep bite, when you hold your teeth together, the upper incisors cover most of the lower incisors. I've seen your pictures in the Case Discussions section. A deep bite can become problematic if the lower incisors make contact with the gum tissue behind the upper incisors, causing irritation and potentially gingival recession. If your lower incisors touch the gums behind your upper incisors, I agree that it would be wise for you to keep your teeth slightly parted. It might be worth seeking out the advice of a functional orthodontist for your complicated case. They might be able to recommend treatment options to improve your deep bite faster than oral posture alone. I wonder if a myobrace would be helpful in your situation.

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Posted : 31/07/2018 7:41 pm
Dominik liked
Dominik
Trusted Member

😨 I keep my teeth in light contact ... am I doing it wrong!?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/08/2018 2:34 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

great find ive been wondering this for awhile i feel that in light contact its easier to get more pressure but its a lot more difficult to breath that way if you have deep bite. i used to keep separated and ive done clench for about a month or two and i honestly feel its gotten a bit deeper.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/08/2018 3:24 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Idk where people get this clench idea from tbh

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/08/2018 8:45 am
alfio
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Idk where people get this clench idea from tbh

Eddy, what luck that you intervened, I just wanted you!

If I remember correctly, I read your post where you explained that keeping the teeth slightly touchly allows the jaw to follow the movements up and forward of the maxilla; therefore, having the goal of advancing my jaw and correcting my deep bite, if I keep my teeth separated my jaw will not come forward?

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 01/08/2018 11:18 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: alfio
Posted by: EddieMoney

Idk where people get this clench idea from tbh

Eddy, what luck that you intervened, I just wanted you!

If I remember correctly, I read your post where you explained that keeping the teeth slightly touchly allows the jaw to follow the movements up and forward of the maxilla; therefore, having the goal of advancing my jaw and correcting my deep bite, if I keep my teeth separated my jaw will not come forward?

I am sure it can still move. Light contact or no. But clenching is never a good idea. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/08/2018 11:26 am
alfio liked
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

i feel my tongue feels differently when my bite is open sorta like cheesy swallow every time

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/08/2018 2:54 pm
alfio
Active Member
Posted by: Apollo

I don't have a deep bite. All of my teeth are in light contact when I hold them together. With a deep bite, when you hold your teeth together, the upper incisors cover most of the lower incisors. I've seen your pictures in the Case Discussions section. A deep bite can become problematic if the lower incisors make contact with the gum tissue behind the upper incisors, causing irritation and potentially gingival recession. If your lower incisors touch the gums behind your upper incisors, I agree that it would be wise for you to keep your teeth slightly parted. It might be worth seeking out the advice of a functional orthodontist for your complicated case. They might be able to recommend treatment options to improve your deep bite faster than oral posture alone. I wonder if a myobrace would be helpful in your situation.

Fortunately, even if my deep bite is very severe my lower incisors do not touch the gums, but in any case I can not keep my teeth in contact, both because when I join the molars I have a very retruded mandible, both because in that position I do not feel relaxed, in fact it makes me much more natural to keep my teeth separate.

However, in my presentation post, a user told me that according to his opinion they are my inward tilting incisors that force my maxilla and jaw to stand back from their natural position, and that with mewing I could get excellent results. What do you think about it?

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 01/08/2018 5:49 pm
alfio
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: alfio
Posted by: EddieMoney

Idk where people get this clench idea from tbh

Eddy, what luck that you intervened, I just wanted you!

If I remember correctly, I read your post where you explained that keeping the teeth slightly touchly allows the jaw to follow the movements up and forward of the maxilla; therefore, having the goal of advancing my jaw and correcting my deep bite, if I keep my teeth separated my jaw will not come forward?

I am sure it can still move. Light contact or no. But clenching is never a good idea. 

How can you be sure? If I understand what you mean, it is not necessary that the teeth touch to bring the jaw forward, but that the force of the tongue and jaw are in balance, so as to keep the mouth closed but also avoiding the tightening of the teeth, right?

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 01/08/2018 6:02 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: alfio
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: alfio
Posted by: EddieMoney

Idk where people get this clench idea from tbh

Eddy, what luck that you intervened, I just wanted you!

If I remember correctly, I read your post where you explained that keeping the teeth slightly touchly allows the jaw to follow the movements up and forward of the maxilla; therefore, having the goal of advancing my jaw and correcting my deep bite, if I keep my teeth separated my jaw will not come forward?

I am sure it can still move. Light contact or no. But clenching is never a good idea. 

How can you be sure? If I understand what you mean, it is not necessary that the teeth touch to bring the jaw forward, but that the force of the tongue and jaw are in balance, so as to keep the mouth closed but also avoiding the tightening of the teeth, right?

Yes the forces should oppose each other.

However you incisors are very retroclined. I wonder if for you spreading your tongue forward a bit more would reverse this and cause them to tilt neutrally.

This in and of itself could allow your mandible more room to protract to maintain occlusion. 

My own incisors are retroclined from orthodontics so I am trying this myself to proclinate them. 

I also am chewing on incisors as I hear this can give them a more positive inclination (labially as opposed to lingually). In other words the teeth would be in the opposite direction yours are now.

Caution, however! My palate is at least 44mm so any proclination of incisors and canines would allow me to protract my mandible more. But if your palate is narrow (<42mm) I advise widening it first before shifting forces to the incisors. A narrow palate with proclined incisors = a severe overjet / Class 2 maloclussion. A palate NEEDS WIDTH in order to be able to have proclined incisors and maintain occlusion. If your palate is narrow then you'll just look like you have either an overbite or an open one. 

What is your current intermolar width?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/08/2018 7:26 pm
Dominik
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Caution, however! My palate is at least 44mm so any proclination of incisors and canines would allow me to protract my mandible more. But if your palate is narrow (<42mm) I advise widening it first before shifting forces to the incisors. A narrow palate with proclined incisors = a severe overjet / Class 2 maloclussion. A palate NEEDS WIDTH in order to be able to have proclined incisors and maintain occlusion. If your palate is narrow then you'll just look like you have either an overbite or an open one. 

What is your current intermolar width?

Oh wow. This explains my situation. I did not allow my orthodontist to remove my premolars for braces, so she told me the incisor and canine tilt was good, but she cant do the 3mm overbite correction without removing the premolars. Intermolar is below 42 mm even tho it widened as the molars straightened. I hope mewing helps, in my 2nd month now.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/08/2018 4:05 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Dominik
Posted by: EddieMoney

Caution, however! My palate is at least 44mm so any proclination of incisors and canines would allow me to protract my mandible more. But if your palate is narrow (<42mm) I advise widening it first before shifting forces to the incisors. A narrow palate with proclined incisors = a severe overjet / Class 2 maloclussion. A palate NEEDS WIDTH in order to be able to have proclined incisors and maintain occlusion. If your palate is narrow then you'll just look like you have either an overbite or an open one. 

What is your current intermolar width?

Oh wow. This explains my situation. I did not allow my orthodontist to remove my premolars for braces, so she told me the incisor and canine tilt was good, but she cant do the 3mm overbite correction without removing the premolars. Intermolar is below 42 mm even tho it widened as the molars straightened. I hope mewing helps, in my 2nd month now.

A positive incisor inclination combined with a narrow palate will lead most orthos to extract teeth most of the time because they mostly believe in narrowing and never expanding.

I always used to be confused when I saw people with proclined incisors and strong profiles. I used to think proclined incisors would weaken the profile since it is  what happens with bimax. 

What I wasn't seeing was the wide palates of tthese people that allowed mandible protraction to a more ideal place. It isn't tthat proclined incisors are bad. It's that narrow palates basically act as cages for the mandible, constraining its movement and causing it to hide into the face. Retroclined incisors would not help in any way and your mandible being far back would only remain. 

This is why not focusing on expansion and instead on tooth removal does 0 for aesthetics and may actually make things worse . You need god tier bones to be able to not suffer the effects of a narrow palate. Only guys like JJ Watt are fortunate enough to have one and not affect his looks horribly. 

Lucky for him his maxilla is rotated counterclockwise 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/08/2018 7:19 am
alfio
Active Member

@SUGR1

I'm interested in your opinion. What do you think about it? What changes between mewing with the teeth in contact and mewing with the separated teeth?

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 07/08/2018 7:47 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

I keep going back and for the with this I wish we had a definitive answer I’m just goin a stick with light contact because I don’t wanna end up wasting any tome

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2018 3:53 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

I’ve been experimenting for the past two hours hours and I realize that when u mew with ur bites closed even slightly your teeth seem to take a bit of the counter force. I usually have my bite slightly closed  when resting but I think that’s a form of clenching because my jaw is slightly biting down on something. So I tried keeping my lip seal then Relaxing my bite I noticed I can use more force against the pallete that way  for whatever reason and I feel my jaw muscles counteract more as well I think you should mew in the position where ur jaw is relaxed your tongue is touching the roof of the mouth and you have a lip seal then mew from that position

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2018 5:55 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

Also for people with a deep bite it’s hard to keep the back of the tongue up when u close the bite. When it’s slightly open u can breathe well having the back up there

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2018 6:36 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

Also for people with a deep bite it’s hard to keep the back of the tongue up when u close the bite. When it’s slightly open u can breathe well having the back up there

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/08/2018 6:36 pm
Gcar
 Gcar
New Member

https://orthotropics.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Introduction-to-Orthotropics-handbook.pdf
Page 2, under “Tropic Premise”, bullet point 3:

 

" Maintain a Butterfly bite, a gentle contact or near contact between the teeth with the opening and closing muscles in balanced opposition, unless in function such as, chewing, talking or laughing. "

Pretty much keep them close as you can without clenching. They rest close together by the jaw closing but the tongue opposing. The force of the tongue prevents the clench from occurring. This is my interpretation of it.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/11/2020 10:28 pm
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: Dominik
Posted by: EddieMoney

Caution, however! My palate is at least 44mm so any proclination of incisors and canines would allow me to protract my mandible more. But if your palate is narrow (<42mm) I advise widening it first before shifting forces to the incisors. A narrow palate with proclined incisors = a severe overjet / Class 2 maloclussion. A palate NEEDS WIDTH in order to be able to have proclined incisors and maintain occlusion. If your palate is narrow then you'll just look like you have either an overbite or an open one. 

What is your current intermolar width?

Oh wow. This explains my situation. I did not allow my orthodontist to remove my premolars for braces, so she told me the incisor and canine tilt was good, but she cant do the 3mm overbite correction without removing the premolars. Intermolar is below 42 mm even tho it widened as the molars straightened. I hope mewing helps, in my 2nd month now.

A positive incisor inclination combined with a narrow palate will lead most orthos to extract teeth most of the time because they mostly believe in narrowing and never expanding.

I always used to be confused when I saw people with proclined incisors and strong profiles. I used to think proclined incisors would weaken the profile since it is  what happens with bimax. 

What I wasn't seeing was the wide palates of tthese people that allowed mandible protraction to a more ideal place. It isn't tthat proclined incisors are bad. It's that narrow palates basically act as cages for the mandible, constraining its movement and causing it to hide into the face. Retroclined incisors would not help in any way and your mandible being far back would only remain. 

This is why not focusing on expansion and instead on tooth removal does 0 for aesthetics and may actually make things worse . You need god tier bones to be able to not suffer the effects of a narrow palate. Only guys like JJ Watt are fortunate enough to have one and not affect his looks horribly. 

Lucky for him his maxilla is rotated counterclockwise 

This is something I know from personal experience : mewing won't give you CCW rotation. It will make your maxilla wider, it will slightly push your lower maxilla forward, it will improve your breathing by a ton, it will widen your whole face a bit, but it absolutely will not rotate your face CCW.

Sphenoid angle determines maxilla angle and it's position relative to the face, but the sphenoid depends on bigger bones like frontal and temporal, the temporal itself depends on the occipital.

If any idea of a CCW rotation is to be had then anyone should at the very least expect that every bone in the head will have to shift in position. The tongue simply doesn't posses that kind of attachment to influence the face in that way, since the tongue's forward power comes from the jaw which comes from the lateral pterygoids, which are attached to the mid-sphenoid thus the tongue can't rotate the sphenoid.

Even stronger is that simply looking at anatomy it is obvious that chewing should produce CW rotation of maxilla, which I believe was verified in some statistical study where EMG of chewing muscles correlated to CW rotation of maxilla.

If chewing nor mewing can produce these rotations, I can only think that it is some kind of passive force which governs the development of the face.

Some possibles ones : simple bone growth shifting everything else, vascular forces, postural forces, gravity forces, cerebrospinal fluid movements even.

Another possibility is some muscle that we simply haven't considered, like the occipitofrontalis.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/12/2020 7:44 pm
Meowxilla
Trusted Member

@auxiliarus

What do you think about chewing exclusively on incisors?

Would that result in CCW rotation of maxilla since all force is located at front?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/12/2020 10:30 pm
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @meowxilla

@auxiliarus

What do you think about chewing exclusively on incisors?

Would that result in CCW rotation of maxilla since all force is located at front?

No, this is something I've done myself and it didn't cause CCW rotation of the maxilla. This is because the maxilla is actually very resistant to bite forces which makes anatomical sense. Also the teeth are much more mold-able than the maxilla, so over time rather than my maxilla changing my lower teeth just got pushed into the gums and slightly moved forward (lower teeth moving forward is unideal as it pushes the jaw back to maintain occlusion).

If anything EMG studies/animal studies show constant chewing to produce CW rotation which makes anatomical sense again, as all the muscles are attached either to sphenoid or the zygo in such way to pull the maxilla backward to produce forward force.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/12/2020 7:00 am
Meowxilla
Trusted Member

@auxiliarus

So i then think it's only possible to fix deep bite by moving theeth a little foward and inside gums as you said. Theeth as you said are easier to move. My deep bite is mainly caused by theeth and not jaws missalingment i think.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/12/2020 9:13 am
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @meowxilla

@auxiliarus

So i then think it's only possible to fix deep bite by moving theeth a little foward and inside gums as you said. Theeth as you said are easier to move. My deep bite is mainly caused by theeth and not jaws missalingment i think.

 

It really depends. No one can just say without seeing your X-ray. Deep bite does not refer to one condition, but rather a symptom of many different conditions.

Typically the most common cause of deep bite is facial deficiency characterized by CW rotation of maxilla, inwardly rotated ramus and a narrow palate.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/12/2020 1:56 pm
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: Dominik
Posted by: EddieMoney

Caution, however! My palate is at least 44mm so any proclination of incisors and canines would allow me to protract my mandible more. But if your palate is narrow (<42mm) I advise widening it first before shifting forces to the incisors. A narrow palate with proclined incisors = a severe overjet / Class 2 maloclussion. A palate NEEDS WIDTH in order to be able to have proclined incisors and maintain occlusion. If your palate is narrow then you'll just look like you have either an overbite or an open one. 

What is your current intermolar width?

Oh wow. This explains my situation. I did not allow my orthodontist to remove my premolars for braces, so she told me the incisor and canine tilt was good, but she cant do the 3mm overbite correction without removing the premolars. Intermolar is below 42 mm even tho it widened as the molars straightened. I hope mewing helps, in my 2nd month now.

A positive incisor inclination combined with a narrow palate will lead most orthos to extract teeth most of the time because they mostly believe in narrowing and never expanding.

I always used to be confused when I saw people with proclined incisors and strong profiles. I used to think proclined incisors would weaken the profile since it is  what happens with bimax. 

What I wasn't seeing was the wide palates of tthese people that allowed mandible protraction to a more ideal place. It isn't tthat proclined incisors are bad. It's that narrow palates basically act as cages for the mandible, constraining its movement and causing it to hide into the face. Retroclined incisors would not help in any way and your mandible being far back would only remain. 

This is why not focusing on expansion and instead on tooth removal does 0 for aesthetics and may actually make things worse . You need god tier bones to be able to not suffer the effects of a narrow palate. Only guys like JJ Watt are fortunate enough to have one and not affect his looks horribly. 

Lucky for him his maxilla is rotated counterclockwise 

This is something I know from personal experience : mewing won't give you CCW rotation. It will make your maxilla wider, it will slightly push your lower maxilla forward, it will improve your breathing by a ton, it will widen your whole face a bit, but it absolutely will not rotate your face CCW.

Sphenoid angle determines maxilla angle and it's position relative to the face, but the sphenoid depends on bigger bones like frontal and temporal, the temporal itself depends on the occipital.

If any idea of a CCW rotation is to be had then anyone should at the very least expect that every bone in the head will have to shift in position. The tongue simply doesn't posses that kind of attachment to influence the face in that way, since the tongue's forward power comes from the jaw which comes from the lateral pterygoids, which are attached to the mid-sphenoid thus the tongue can't rotate the sphenoid.

Even stronger is that simply looking at anatomy it is obvious that chewing should produce CW rotation of maxilla, which I believe was verified in some statistical study where EMG of chewing muscles correlated to CW rotation of maxilla.

If chewing nor mewing can produce these rotations, I can only think that it is some kind of passive force which governs the development of the face.

Some possibles ones : simple bone growth shifting everything else, vascular forces, postural forces, gravity forces, cerebrospinal fluid movements even.

Another possibility is some muscle that we simply haven't considered, like the occipitofrontalis.

 

 There is one site called flobility by Jordan. He talks about how fixing your posture changes everything, your center of gravity, vascular forces, and occlusion by retraining your spine and hips to align and decompress the body. Results I notice where I saw most had drastically improved neck posture and body posture with a strong stabilizing core to hold the body. I believe that mewing can change the face, however it’s going to be way than the tongue unless you are under 8 really. And there was a thread where progress mentioned about the temporal bones as the key of cranial restructuring along with the sphenoid bone; but the study looked at results of flexion and extention of the cranial base and not changes since cranial osteopaths says it’s impossible to influence in adulthood. I think we have to accept that muscles and posture is the real way to change the skull all in balance to achieve CCW rotation of the maxilla.

 

Link: https://www.flobility.com  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/12/2020 6:56 pm
keithmaclroz
New Member

I never heard about this theory. To be honest, I had some teeth problems recently. I got my upper molars removed, so this subject is pretty concerning for me. However, I don't think that keeping your teeth in contact does cause that much damage. Still, this is just my opinion as a person that is not experienced in this field. By the way, guys, what's your point of view about the teeth whitening procedure? I am thinking about it, but I want to hear your thoughts first. So in case, someone is willing to give me a hand, I will be grateful.

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Posted : 09/08/2021 11:08 am
ninjaB
New Member

David Cook might be a good start, but he ghosted me when I started talking about complex staged interventions

 

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Posted : 15/09/2021 8:19 pm