Share:

NOTICE:

DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION

This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

Suck-hold is counter-productive?  

  RSS
Kex
 Kex
New Member

Let's talk about the suck-hold (aka passive mewing). The whole point of mewing, as I see it, is to push up the maxilla with your tongue. When suck-holding, the tongue exerts no force on the maxilla, it simply sticks to it thanks to vacuum. Actually, it's even worse -- when you suck-hold, your tongue is pulling the maxilla down due to gravity.

That's why you should be actively mewing at all times (exerting some force with your tongue to push the maxilla). Doesn't mean you should be hard mewing, the force should be moderate, but it should be more than zero. I call this active mewing (as opposed to the suck-hold, aka passive mewing).

Thoughts?

Quote
Posted : 15/05/2019 11:39 am
Ayla31
Trusted Member

The suck hold is described by Mike Mew as a mixture of suction/vacuum and a push/force. 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Ayla31
ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 3:43 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Ayla31

The suck hold is described by Mike Mew as a mixture of sucking/vacuum and a push/force. 

Exactly. I specifically suction more on the rear palate to pull it down, and push most on alveolar ridge to move that part up for counterclockwise rotation. 

 
ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 4:11 pm
mr.mewing
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Ayla31

The suck hold is described by Mike Mew as a mixture of sucking/vacuum and a push/force. 

Exactly. I specifically suction more on the rear palate to pull it down, and push most on alveolar ridge to move that part up for counterclockwise rotation. 

 

but for people with a narrow a suction hold tongue will push out the molars..

 
ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 4:28 pm
elevee
Trusted Member

For me, a slight suction ensures that the whole tongue makes contact with the palate. If I think "push" than I find I'm only using the parts of the tongue that are already active and responsive--I don't get the posterior third, or the lazy, less woke areas along the edges. Michale Chatham, whose photos are famous in orthotropics, said that she uses a slight suction hold when she dropped in here one time.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 4:31 pm
Kex
 Kex
New Member
Posted by: Ayla31

The suck hold is described by Mike Mew as a mixture of suction/vacuum and a push/force. 

Then what's the point of vacuum at all? It's like a by-product of pushing. This should be made more clear. You MUST be pushing.

 
 
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Ayla31

The suck hold is described by Mike Mew as a mixture of sucking/vacuum and a push/force. 

Exactly. I specifically suction more on the rear palate to pull it down, and push most on alveolar ridge to move that part up for counterclockwise rotation. 

 

Are you sure in what you are doing? You are basically pushing with the tip of your tongue, which is not recommended at all.

 
ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 5:00 pm
Ayla31
Trusted Member
Posted by: Kex
Posted by: Ayla31

The suck hold is described by Mike Mew as a mixture of suction/vacuum and a push/force. 

Then what's the point of vacuum at all? It's like a by-product of pushing. This should be made more clear. You MUST be pushing.

 

Please take into account that we swallow hundred of times a day. Swallowing is a push per se, and Mike shows how to attain a suction hold by swallowing as well. I think, when you have the suction hold, you can micro-swallow constantly...there is this suction that appears when the tongue is plastered on the roof of the mouth, which helps bring the saliva into the throat, and the tongue is also active, ready to swallow/push how many times it needs. 

So, my feeling is that this vacuum assists breathing and swallowing. 

Put the palm of your hand while doing the suction hold "exercise" and see how you feel the forces on your face. If your experience is similar to mine, you will feel outward pressure on your hand.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 5:29 pm
Rabies4U
Active Member

You

      From what I can see you are trying to leverage the maxilla upward. 

 I think  to do this you should cinch down with the palatoglossus muscle highlighted in green.    This will cause a lever arm system .  

Notice the palatoglossus muscle is connected to the soft palate, and  hard palate respectively. The contraction of this muscle is impossible unless the posterior third of the common constipation of the tongue is in contact with the roof of the mouth.  Once the this muscle is cinched down the tongue acts as a pivot point and the hard palate acts as a lever arm with palatoglossus muscle providing force to give the whole system torque, and drive the maxilla up.    A suck-hold will just give a  mechanism to insure a consistent pivot point is there for the system to work.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Rabies4U
ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 7:32 pm
Rabies4U
Active Member

 If we wanted we could probably do some math to find out torque and optimal tongue position.  But Im being lazy.

 

If anyone is interested let me know and I'll write a 6-12 pg research paper, on it.

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by Rabies4U
ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 7:54 pm
elevee
Trusted Member

I want to know. I expect your paper by Monday at noon. 🙂

So what you're saying is that all the upward push won't be very effective if the soft palate is not engaged with some sort of pressure seal? I agree with Ayla that some degree of suction does seem to aid with a good strong push swallow, kind of keeping it in place and ready for a correct swallow...in fact I'm not sure if I can do a push swallow without it.

Incredibly informative post, @greensmoothies. Thanks so much for the resources. An embarrassment of riches!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 9:59 pm
Rabies4U
Active Member

Lol it's gonna take a little longer then that, but Ill start work on it.

 And yes, the upward push probably wont be very effective without the seal.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2019 11:52 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Kex

Let's talk about the suck-hold (aka passive mewing). The whole point of mewing, as I see it, is to push up the maxilla with your tongue. When suck-holding, the tongue exerts no force on the maxilla, it simply sticks to it thanks to vacuum. Actually, it's even worse -- when you suck-hold, your tongue is pulling the maxilla down due to gravity.

That's why you should be actively mewing at all times (exerting some force with your tongue to push the maxilla). Doesn't mean you should be hard mewing, the force should be moderate, but it should be more than zero. I call this active mewing (as opposed to the suck-hold, aka passive mewing).

Thoughts?

The "mewing" concept as Dr. John Mew first introduced it was to help children guide growth. Mike Mew took it into the adult realm and claimed it can cause change including moving the face up and forward. 

Correct tongue posturing requires gently pushing the tip of your tongue up and forward and then suctioning the posterior part up and back. Ideally this effort become subconscious and requires no attention.

Some people have their tongue too low in their throat and thus they can't posture it fully as described above. They either can posture the front or the back so they came up with inventive ways and theories around this.

The solution in this case is to work on strengthening the tongue independently of any other facial muscles and to correct the head and neck posture. Over time this will allow for correct tongue posture. Also some can benefit from a little widening of the upper arch. You can't really practice much tongue posturing if your inter molar width is 31mm for example.

 
Posted by: elevee

 Michale Chatham, whose photos are famous in orthotropics, said that she uses a slight suction hold when she dropped in here one time.

Which pictures are you referring to?

This post was modified 2 months ago 3 times by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2019 4:03 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

its simple man do a cheesy swallow a few times and just hold it as tight as you can until it blocks your breathing thats its honestly it shouldnt get more complicated than that

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2019 4:35 am
Ayla31 liked
elevee
Trusted Member

@Abdulrahman, it's this woman.

 

Image result for migraine myofunctional therapy

 

She popped into the success stories from around the web thread when someone posted her photos there, to claim her story and offer some feedback. She's now a myofunctional therapist in the midwest and has some really great content on her site, including a lengthy article about her own treatment. The medical journal presentation of her case study used to be available but I haven't seen it in a while. Michalechatham.com.

This post was modified 2 months ago by elevee
ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2019 10:34 am
krollic
Estimable Member

how much suction do you guys typically use? I probably use more than I need but I'm can't imagine much of a downside too it

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/05/2019 10:34 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: krollic

how much suction do you guys typically use? I probably use more than I need but I'm can't imagine much of a downside too it

A comfortable and strong enough suction hold to keep my neck and spine elongated.

Only force I apply to it is when swallowing. 

Focus on your cervical posture before you focus on tongue forces and what not and you'll see the tongue will plaster itself in a suction hold at the back of the palate alone.

Breathing from your diaphragm and getting your chest up in a natural position will help a lot with the suction hold at the back. Relax your shoulders and let your thoracic spine come forward. Breathe deep from your nose. 

 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Roflcopters
ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/05/2019 4:56 am
krollic
Estimable Member

If I were to separate my teeth slightly when doing a suction hold, I can feel my inner cheeks very gently getting pulled inbetween my teeth. do you reckon this is too much? I like the feel and security of a strong succ but I'm wondering if the vacuum in my mouth is causing my cheeks to press inwards against my teeth at all and potentially limit expansion, but that seems improbable

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/05/2019 5:17 am
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

Wait... if you are pushing with the front and suctioning with the back, doesn't that make the muscle under your chin flex, which is the opposite of what you want?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/05/2019 11:28 am

I've thought about this too.

The vacuum you create must have a net force of zero, but the force is not distributed evenly. It would pull the midline of your palate down and the sides of your palate upwards, therefore tending to have a desirable flattening effect.

Beyond that, the tongue does stay engaged and pushing upwards during this hold. So even with soft mewing, the overall effect would be upwards and flattening.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 6:50 am
Share:

As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

Face Development

  
Working

Please Login or Register