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Strengthening tongue by injecting steroids to improve mewing results?  

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krajk
New Member

Just a stupid shower thought; do you think it would work?

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Posted : 14/09/2019 1:41 pm
Dreez
Active Member

Maybe, but wouldn't recommend. 

Do it natural, and be patience for results it will come sooner or later.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/09/2019 3:31 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

If sheer strength of the push resulted in growth, then facemasks would work on adults. The remodeling needs to be signalled (we're trying to figure out how to signal it), rather than accomplished through raw force.

Facemasks work in children by pulling the bone apart at the sutures, but I'm not convinced that this is proper growth either. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2019 2:05 pm
Agendum liked
printfactory
Eminent Member

Isn´t force a way to signal the bones to grow? Someone stated in this blog http://www.aljabri.com/blog/what-is-mewing/ in the comments that the reason facemasks don´t work on adults is because you can´t really anchor them properly to the head.

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Posted : 17/09/2019 3:05 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@printfactory

Honestly I don't think facemasks would work effectively even if you do anchor them correctly, I agree with TGW that it's not just force that gives signals to grow. In my opinion, while loads/stress/force is how the bone gets signals to grow, it isn't as simple as pulling on the maxilla in an up and forwards direction to get the maxilla growing upwards and forwards. The craniofacial complex is sophisticated and intricate, however, I think at it's foundation it's quite simple, if the root cause of CFD is lack of tongue posture, then the solution is to reestablish tongue posture, key word, posture. Making proper tongue posture into a habit that you do without thinking, 24/7, is the most important and difficult part. It seems as though people are waiting and hoping for a breakthrough in this field, an appliance that can magically fix everything, this is honestly rather delusional in my opinion and I don't see what's wrong with the current appliances. They are supposed to help you achieve proper tongue posture primarily through expansion, instead I see many people thinking that an appliance can somehow upswing the jaws or can somehow substitute the tongue. The reality is you are paying for a shortcut essentially, you are expanding your palate so that mewing becomes easier, this isn't bad but it's important to understand that it's not a substitute for actual tongue posture.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2019 9:15 pm
Basim liked
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@sinned

yeah but tongue posture just maintains what you've already got.... (in terms of the maxilla).  we are trying to actually upswing the maxilla here... that's what people are waiting on.... we're all using tongue posture anyway.....  I think John mew said all you need is like 4 hours a day to maintain...

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2019 10:18 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@20_year_old_mewing

What can an appliance do that the tongue can't?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2019 10:39 pm
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@sinned

i don't think the tongue can do what mse does but i might be wrong

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2019 11:18 pm
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@sinned

check out the post i just made 

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Posted : 17/09/2019 11:19 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@20_year_old_mewing

If you're referring to the fact that MSE splits the suture, I'd argue that it's not necessary. While your suture splits giving you a diastema, this is because the forces required to split the anterior portion of the palate is less than that of the posterior, hence the diastema while showing little change in the midface. Also there was a person on this forum who did get a diastema from mewing so it is possible to split the suture from mewing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2019 11:28 pm
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member
Posted by: @admin

If sheer strength of the push resulted in growth, then facemasks would work on adults. The remodeling needs to be signalled (we're trying to figure out how to signal it), rather than accomplished through raw force.

Facemasks work in children by pulling the bone apart at the sutures, but I'm not convinced that this is proper growth either. 

Im guessing an adequate intake of nutrients to support bone remodeling as well as perhaps growth hormone injections would be the best approach.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/09/2019 7:08 am
qwerty135
Eminent Member
Posted by: @admin

If sheer strength of the push resulted in growth, then facemasks would work on adults. The remodeling needs to be signalled (we're trying to figure out how to signal it), rather than accomplished through raw force.

Facemasks work in children by pulling the bone apart at the sutures, but I'm not convinced that this is proper growth either. 

@admin I’m curious as to what kind of work is being done to figure out how to signal to the body to remodel/correct improper growth? Are there any orthodontists who are working/have made progress? Or is the hope that a lucky “mewer” might find the solution one day?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/09/2019 10:28 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: @qwerty135
Posted by: @admin

If sheer strength of the push resulted in growth, then facemasks would work on adults. The remodeling needs to be signalled (we're trying to figure out how to signal it), rather than accomplished through raw force.

Facemasks work in children by pulling the bone apart at the sutures, but I'm not convinced that this is proper growth either. 

@admin I’m curious as to what kind of work is being done to figure out how to signal to the body to remodel/correct improper growth? Are there any orthodontists who are working/have made progress? Or is the hope that a lucky “mewer” might find the solution one day?

@qwerty135 

A lot of professionals are attacking this from different angles. LVI/FBI/Galella and the FAGGA appliance (which isn't a new appliance) uses pressure against the trigeminal nerve opening at the incisive foramen to trigger remodeling. Now we know that this is only remodeling the alveolar ridge. They claim the rest of the maxilla remodels, but present no proof.

They (And others) also use molar buildups to cause remodeling of the TMJ

Dr. Singh and Vivos use the DNA appliance to trigger growth epigenetically. The suction created by the device, the individual springs to the front teeth, the bite plate, and the screw opening all trigger growth. This appliance has more evidence for remodeling beyond the alveolar ridge than others on the market.

The ALF appliance helps to unjam and re-align the sutures, but requires a very skilled practitioner. A lot of dentists may offer it, but I wouldn't believe that they all understand what they're doing. They (and others mentioned) work with osteopaths and Craniosacral therapists to achieve this. The theory being that once the bones are unjammed and CSF rhythm is brought back, it can heal and allow any stunted growth to resume.

Of course, the Mews with Orthotropics and Biobloc

Personally, I think the breakthrough is going to come from somebody on this forum. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/09/2019 12:13 pm
JoanHodges
New Member

Hmm, that is very doubtful... I've never heard someone try and do this. This is weird a bit 😀 But what else to expect from thoughts that come in the shower... Though, I don't think steroids would strengthen your tongue, it would get bigger as more stronger but not longer. When I've been using steroids while working out, they boosted my muscle growth and not something else... By the way, I'm so glad I found this muscle gear where I could order steroids from during the pandemic cause if not then I wouldn't have gained muscles I have now!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/10/2020 2:27 pm
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @sinned

@printfactory

Honestly I don't think facemasks would work effectively even if you do anchor them correctly, I agree with TGW that it's not just force that gives signals to grow. In my opinion, while loads/stress/force is how the bone gets signals to grow, it isn't as simple as pulling on the maxilla in an up and forwards direction to get the maxilla growing upwards and forwards. The craniofacial complex is sophisticated and intricate, however, I think at it's foundation it's quite simple, if the root cause of CFD is lack of tongue posture, then the solution is to reestablish tongue posture, key word, posture. Making proper tongue posture into a habit that you do without thinking, 24/7, is the most important and difficult part. It seems as though people are waiting and hoping for a breakthrough in this field, an appliance that can magically fix everything, this is honestly rather delusional in my opinion and I don't see what's wrong with the current appliances. They are supposed to help you achieve proper tongue posture primarily through expansion, instead I see many people thinking that an appliance can somehow upswing the jaws or can somehow substitute the tongue. The reality is you are paying for a shortcut essentially, you are expanding your palate so that mewing becomes easier, this isn't bad but it's important to understand that it's not a substitute for actual tongue posture.

Definitely agree, People need to adopt 24/7 Mewing everyday to get real results and if you are under 21(better under 18) you can get significant improvements in the facial structure since the tongue is a 3D expansion in all  directions. Problems are that most people have underdeveloped maxilla in all direction with high valuted narrow palates and recessed along with the mandible, so establishing tongue posture is near impossible. The other problem which is stated in Ronald’s interview with Dr.Bockow is that after the beginning of puberty(12-14), the density of the bones and maxilla strength making it harder to get any real expansion of the sutures, which is what we adults should be focusing on anyway. Plus we need to take in consideration of body posture and it’s influence to the whole body and face. People are lacking in core,glute, and hip strength to have fully align body posture. When I have this posture, my Mewing becomes insanely strong and feel pressure on the whole skull collapsing and the tongue trying to expand in all directions and having those same experiences that hemstrubl and Jamo talking the hyoid bone burning and the digastric muscle pulling in with the posterior third with my tongue. My last point is that with our CFD structure; our muscles does not function properly with smaller jaws and airways, which leads to smaller muscles. So by all means find a good orthodontist team with myofunctional therapy with a procedure of MSE and MMA/DOME/ or double Jaw surgery gives maximum results to establish real results we look for. 

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Posted : 22/10/2020 12:13 pm
cliffbars
Active Member

@sinned Really good points. So many of us have been caught up in lookin for the HG appliance, when in reality, we've had it our whole lives. it's just getting the necessary help (such as expansion) to help us adopt the proper tongue posture. There's also the question of effectiveness in adults, however, I believe with time the body and face should reform based on the newfound function. A lot of people on this forum tend to underestimate the true power of the body. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/10/2020 4:21 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@cliffbars @Basim

I still support mewing but my opinions changed a bit since then, posture affects structure just as much as structure affects posture, when you're younger posture has more of an effect and when your older your structure starts becoming a limited factor. I think you should make dedicated efforts towards improving both, try to fix structure through more effort and higher forces (hardmewing and thumbpulling) and work on posture at the same time (suction hold, lips sealed, neck and body posture). The limiting factor of good posture is structure, at the same time, this has caused bad habits to imprint into your unconscious which needs to be addressed in addition to the structural limits. Structural limits are usually skeletal deficiencies, your maxilla is not forward enough or big enough, your palate is vaulted. I think for an adult you need dedicated effort and force to get structural improvements.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/10/2020 7:53 pm
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @sinned

@cliffbars @Basim

I still support mewing but my opinions changed a bit since then, posture affects structure just as much as structure affects posture, when you're younger posture has more of an effect and when your older your structure starts becoming a limited factor. I think you should make dedicated efforts towards improving both, try to fix structure through more effort and higher forces (hardmewing and thumbpulling) and work on posture at the same time (suction hold, lips sealed, neck and body posture). The limiting factor of good posture is structure, at the same time, this has caused bad habits to imprint into your unconscious which needs to be addressed in addition to the structural limits. Structural limits are usually skeletal deficiencies, your maxilla is not forward enough or big enough, your palate is vaulted. I think for an adult you need dedicated effort and force to get structural improvements.

To a certain extent I agree with, but needing higher forces to split the sutures at an adult requires 900-4500 grams, which the tongue can produce at maximum 500 grams. Second the video with Ronald Ead with Dr.Bockow where she stated that mandibular growth is different from maxillary growth. That with even improvements to the maxilla, would probably no change to the mandible size, length, or height to the chin since she says that you can’t grow new bone just by moving the maxilla forward. So then the question is how do we both maxillary and mandibular improvement through the tongue and posture alone? Also very interesting to note that I have a belief that the temporal and occipital bone could cause changes to the mandible but still needs more evidence if that’s the case. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/10/2020 11:14 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@basim

The tongue can produce 9 psi of force posteriorly, the anterior tongue can produce around 6 psi of force.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640594/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319467345_Maximal_strength_and_endurance_scores_of_the_tongue_lip_and_cheek_in_healthy_normal_Koreans

Here's studies on how much the tongue can produce anteriorly.

https://iopimedical.com/medical-professionals/

"There is considerable variability in tongue strength in a population of adults reporting no swallowing or speech problems (see Normal Values). There is a clear central tendency, however, with an average maximum pressure of about 60 kPa, and a range of 40-80 kPa."

Also, if you are not growing new bone when you move the maxilla forward without surgery then what's happening? If the maxilla remodels to a further position that means new bone growth has occurred. Unless you're talking about expanding the dimensions of the maxilla and not just moving it. I think Dr. Bockow is wrong about the mandible, of course if you have no dedicated routine for the mandible it's not going to grow, to maintain occlusion you need to chew and the average person is not chewing that much which is probably why people's mandibles didn't grow, furthermore, it expands too fast for the mandible. Concluding that the mandibular growth is different and/or not possible when nothing was done to encourage mandibular growth is ridiculous. I think it's obvious what's going to happen if you don't have any plan for the mandible and decide to split the upper jaw open. It only makes sense the mandible, like the maxilla, needs a greater than normal force to break it out of it's homeostasis and get it to grow and keep up with the maxilla, occlusal forces from chewing the average, soft diet is not enough. In my opinion, if these adults who expanded with MSE had a dedicated chewing routine and they took it a little more slowly they would probably get some growth in the mandible.

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Posted : 23/10/2020 12:55 am
cliffbars
Active Member

@sinned I agree with what you've said here. We need to keep in mind that all this orthotropics stuff is still such a new field, so putting caps on ideas such as mandible growth will only be counter productive. I'm sure we'll find a way in the near future to stimulate bones even in adults to cure CFD. Please keep me updated if you find anything during your research!

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Posted : 23/10/2020 1:34 am
cliffbars
Active Member

@sinned Interested to see if using a very slow expansion rate with MSE (similar rate of expansion to the tongue, but still much higher), while also using a FM throughout the whole day, and a lot of tough chewing, combined with functional patterns, and a few bone remodeling supplements or diet, could bring about good results. And I'm saying this treatment time could take a long time, maybe a year or even two. I'm genuinely interested to see if this could work. Thoughts?

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Posted : 23/10/2020 2:06 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@cliffbars

I think it would work. Another thing that could possibly help to make MSE work better is opening the screw by a large amount for a short while then reverting it back. I think this repeated, high cyclical load will help keep the sutures loose.

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Posted : 02/11/2020 3:16 am