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Some thoughts for people with high/vaulted palate  

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Aussiemax
Active Member

I have been reading online and doing mewing quite actively for now 2 months or so. There are some elements that most of us can easily apply i.e. better posture, chewing food properly, breathing through nose etc. However, when it comes to tongue posture, being a person with a vaulted palate, my personal thoughts are in the following that may help other people with the same situation. I am also more than happy to take suggestions from others if there is a better way of doing things.

My guess is that people with vaulted palates were not weaned properly (hard solid foods started too late), poor breathing practice at young age due to often stuffy nose and/or had deficiencies of fat soluble vitamins when they were young or their mothers had deficienies during pregnancy. These deficiencies may have resulted in a more malleable palate than usual resulting in the palate getting bent over period of time with forces from cheeks, resulting in a vaulted palate in adult life.

I noticed very quickly that by resting the tongue high up against the roof of a vaulted palate, I get headaches. I don't know the reason, but it could be pressure against the vomer bone. All I can speculate that it is not a good idea to push even gently a high palate. I am not even sure that a vaulted palate can be reversed (may be with palate expanders).

However, I have noticed that by placing the tip of my tongue just behind incisors, if I do a mckenzie chin tuck, my tongue stays on the roof with a bit of tension, probably the force is from the suction of the tongue at the back of the mouth. After practicing for some time, I can see that my tongue just doesn't come down, because it always stays at the roof (doesn't touch the vaulted palate  though). Even when I wake at night, I have noticed that it stays at the same place due to natural mild suction at the back of the mouth. Based on this experience, it is not unusual for me to imagine a person with a flatter palate to have the mid section of the tongue against the palate all the time naturally. The issue is that, for people with vaulted palate like myself cannot do that easily. 

So what is my strategy ahead? I plan to keep my tongue at the top of the mouth with tip just behind the upper incisors as I genuinely now believe that that's where the tongue naturally sits and I don't have to conciously do it. 

I can see that with a bit of practice, I can keep a better posture, keep my teeth together and have my tongue near the roof without consciously thinking about it as it seems all natural. Whether I get any result from this or not, I'll let you know after 10 years because I do not foresee any facial change in near future, especially with people like me who have vaulted palate, without sacrificing my quality of life big time (headaches and unable to concentrate on any task at hand). 

Would love to hear from others who have high vaulted palates!

P.S. I think it is hard for people with flatter palates to empathize with those who have vaulted palates regarding challenges with mewing.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-arched_palate

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Posted : 02/04/2019 10:10 pm
Aussiemax
Active Member

I wish if Mike Mew could do a video on people with vaulted palates because it seems unfair to provide information that may work for some people and others may have to find it the hard way that it doesn't apply to them/or applies with some modifications (I would think a sizeable chunk of population would fall under this category). In other words, identifying limitations of your work is as important as identifying the underlying mechanisms in the first place.

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Posted : 03/04/2019 5:05 am
Aussiemax
Active Member

I just learned today (please forgive me for being a noob if you guys are already aware of it), the pressure I get on the tongue upwards is not only from the suction on the tongue, it is also a muscular force. Just try to drop the tongue when you are doing a McKenzie chin tuck, it is impossible for me to touch my mouth floor with tongue. The only conclusion from this I can take is that if you are having a correct posture, your tongue would naturally push against the roof. After some practice, I can find a position where if I do chin tuck, the tongue goes up automatically with some force. From this point on, I can safely say that there is no need to actively pushing the tongue up, just a good posture will ensure that the tongue is pushing upwards.

I think I was previously having headaches because I was pushing my tongue upwards resulting in tension headache from straining tongue muscles. However, if I do what John Mew mentioned in the following video and adopt a good posture, the tongue stays up naturally up with some force from the strap muscles in the neck (may be I am wrong).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPZBVmzAO1M

I'll keep doing this and will report if there is any issue. 

Happy to hear from others on this issue.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2019 5:42 am
mewchell liked
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

He addresses it when talking about the case where there's not enough space on the palate.

Also, I ain't got 10 years 😒 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2019 6:49 am
Aussiemax
Active Member
Posted by: GreekGodBrody

He addresses it when talking about the case where there's not enough space on the palate.

Also, I ain't got 10 years 😒 

Do you have a link to that video? I hope you are not talking about the "A Narrow Palate By Dr Mike Mew" video.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2019 7:01 am
mr.mewing
Estimable Member

do you have a picture of your vaulted  palate? or an vaulted palate?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2019 7:27 am
Aussiemax
Active Member
Posted by: mr.mewing

do you have a picture of your vaulted  palate? or an vaulted palate?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/04/2019 6:48 am
Youssef El Kaisi
Eminent Member

I think I have mild high vaulted palate. 8 months ago I didnt understand mewing and I would put the tip on the mid palate range instead of behind the incisors. Pushing hard in this position caused me a lot of headpain, especially in the low back crane I would an intense burning.

Youssef

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/04/2019 7:25 am
mr.mewing
Estimable Member

So my palate is also vaulted i think..

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Posted : 12/04/2019 12:03 pm
Aussiemax
Active Member

I can only speak for myself that if I put my tongue against the roof of my mouth, my palate is so high that the tip of my tongue does not reach palatine rugae. If I want to touch the palatine rugae with my tongue, then my tongue does not stay with the roof of my mouth. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/04/2019 11:04 pm
mewchell
Active Member

I found early on when I was trying to hard  mew I had the same issue with headaches, I honestly believe it isn't healthy. They went away more recently as it seems my tongue has gotten stronger and it now applies more force to the sides than the middle and i really feel it working as opposed to before when it just gave me sore muscles and a headache

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/04/2019 12:25 am
mr.mewing
Estimable Member

No don't have that issue

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/04/2019 5:32 pm
Aussiemax
Active Member
Posted by: mewchell

I found early on when I was trying to hard  mew I had the same issue with headaches, I honestly believe it isn't healthy. They went away more recently as it seems my tongue has gotten stronger and it now applies more force to the sides than the middle and i really feel it working as opposed to before when it just gave me sore muscles and a headache

I have noticed the same that the forces are to the sides and to the front of the tongue but not to the top, as the aim should not be to push an already arched palate higher. So I am not sure if it will result in:

1- Over period of time, the palate may expand, which may reduce the height of the palate (I am not confident about this)

2- If the forces are only to the sides and to the front, there may be very minimal movement of maxilla upwards 

Would like to hear from more experienced members of this forum on what do they think? And do they think that apart from keeping the situation getting worse, what benefit(s) mewing could give to people with vaulted palates, (they can't apply upwards force on an already high arched palate and I am not sure if vaulted palate could be reversed)?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/04/2019 5:54 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

@aussiemax  There are ways to do this... So.... the only person at present who is really paying attention to this is Dr. Sue Lee and Vivos.  Check out Dr. Sue Lee's OSA patient:  https://www.beyondyoursmile.net/gallery   He had a high palate with bilateral crossbite. 

So... you can fix yours with acrylic device... BUT!!!!  You'd want to first create room for the palate to drop into.  Example... a lab tech could put wax on the roof of the maxilla prior to pouring acrylic.  Just go slow on the expansion.  It should come down.  See... with acrylic you get orthopedic movement... not just orthodontic.  You want orthopedic.. not orthodontic.  Dr. Sue Lee's device is geared toward appropriate palatal shaping.  It's lock and load (less time)... but must be paired with braces to avoid flare.  If you want to do it for cheap at home... I would just get a sports mouthguard at Walmart.  If you can see from your photo... the palate is high in the middle portion.  Widening this portion out can reshape the palate.  Truthfully, I'm not sure if you could do this with a mouthguard at Walmart.  That is more for kids.  However, if you want to try... just shape the guard to first off be thin between teeth (don't want to go changing jaw positioning).  I usually make it ever so slightly thinner in the back then the front... Also... you basically want it to be tall on the inside of the teeth so that it can move the palate out.  If you move the palate out and aren't applying pressure at the top, you're fine.  That is Vivos' secret sauce.  There have been acrylic palate expanders around for a while.  They just figured to create room for the palate to drop.  What they missed is big, though... at least for kids... and I'd do it to be safe... shave down IN ADVANCE.  It would seriously likely give faster results.  I'd bet on it... and I'm not a betting person.  Anyway, food puts pressure on your palate, so don't freak out.  Sorry... didn't mean to scare everyone... just some people adjust more (like me... probably from vitamin deficiencies)... but I had quick changes from Mewing and my maxilla lifted up.  Anyway, I don't know how to bring it down.  Many don't notice things, because their bones are solid.

Here's a crazy thought... smile direct only does from canine to canine.. but they'd widen if you ask.  I mention them because they leave a little lip right next to the gums.  This has to be it!  I bet aligners could actually do orthopedic expansion if they scanned each and every time with iTerro (for good fit) and left more of the aligner material on the gums.  It would have to be slow... so as to not injure the gums... but THAT WOULD WORK!  Why are the aligner companies not doing true orthopedic expansion?!  They easily could!  I think they will.  They've got to be smart about this.  You grip that maxilla and pull it out.  I do facepulling and it's not bad.  You get a good grip, though.  Controlled.  I don't know... just a thought.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/04/2019 10:28 pm
macbeth liked
Aussiemax
Active Member
Posted by: darkindigo

@aussiemax  There are ways to do this... So.... the only person at present who is really paying attention to this is Dr. Sue Lee and Vivos.  Check out Dr. Sue Lee's OSA patient:  https://www.beyondyoursmile.net/gallery   He had a high palate with bilateral crossbite. 

So... you can fix yours with acrylic device... BUT!!!!  You'd want to first create room for the palate to drop into.  Example... a lab tech could put wax on the roof of the maxilla prior to pouring acrylic.  Just go slow on the expansion.  It should come down.  See... with acrylic you get orthopedic movement... not just orthodontic.  You want orthopedic.. not orthodontic.  Dr. Sue Lee's device is geared toward appropriate palatal shaping.  It's lock and load (less time)... but must be paired with braces to avoid flare.  If you want to do it for cheap at home... I would just get a sports mouthguard at Walmart.  If you can see from your photo... the palate is high in the middle portion.  Widening this portion out can reshape the palate.  Truthfully, I'm not sure if you could do this with a mouthguard at Walmart.  That is more for kids.

Thanks for the response and for providing some additional information and a possible pathway.

I am not in a hurry, however I am planning to fix these issues with proper tongue and body posture. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/04/2019 11:38 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

I'm being a joker below:

 

Ooohh... here's a crazier thought... a tongue extender.  Basically, it's this thing that the tongue slips into and it makes the tongue flatter/wider.  Google image search "tongue extender"  There is literally no competition!  It's kind of like this... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Spencer-2Pack-Anti-Snoring-Tongue-Device-Silicone-Sleep-Anti-Snore-Device-Apnea-Aid-Snore-Stopper-Tongue-Retainer-Transparent/796320408   but your tongue stays inside your mouth.  You basically trim off the part that keeps your tongue forward.  And you may have to shorten it a bit... but what you do is you put it on your tongue and push up... it gives some good outward pressure.... but I would have a greater oval shape.  That way, it can push the maxilla wider.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/04/2019 12:26 am
mr.mewing
Estimable Member
Posted by: darkindigo

I'm being a joker below:

 

Ooohh... here's a crazier thought... a tongue extender.  Basically, it's this thing that the tongue slips into and it makes the tongue flatter/wider.  Google image search "tongue extender"  There is literally no competition!  It's kind of like this... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Spencer-2Pack-Anti-Snoring-Tongue-Device-Silicone-Sleep-Anti-Snore-Device-Apnea-Aid-Snore-Stopper-Tongue-Retainer-Transparent/796320408   but your tongue stays inside your mouth.  You basically trim off the part that keeps your tongue forward.  And you may have to shorten it a bit... but what you do is you put it on your tongue and push up... it gives some good outward pressure.... but I would have a greater oval shape.  That way, it can push the maxilla wider.

This device looks pretty solid but it does the work for the tongue so it really that good?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/04/2019 3:53 pm
Aussiemax
Active Member

After more than two months of mewing, I can confirm which tongue posture makes most sense to me. This may not apply to everyone, however having a high arch palate, I thought this may be useful for others. You can see in the figure that the back of my tongue is as high as possible. The front part of the tongue before the tip is not touching anything because the roof of the mouth goes really high up and then the tip of the tongue rests just before the palatine rugae (for me, it is a long bump, almost like a flat speed breaker). The whole tongue is up the roof with a suction hold. I have noticed that if I keep the tongue in this posture most of the night, the next morning, my teeth are aligned (don’t know the reason why my lower jaw moves forward otherwise after sleeping until I eat something), which is a pleasant change.

I can also put the tip of the tongue on the palatine rugae, but then it becomes a challenge to touch the back of the tongue due to high arch palate. Also it gives me an irritating sensation of touching something hard edged with the tongue tip.  

The following figure illustrates my default tongue position now, as it is comfortable and I can concentrate on other tasks without thinking too much about my tongue posture. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2019 9:53 pm
Youssef El Kaisi
Eminent Member

Don't do that! That position is why you get the headaches. I used to do that when I didn't know that the tip should be right behind incissors, and I would feel a really intense pain on the back of my head. Now that I have corrected myself, I feel much more comfortable and have seen some progress, although it took me some time to get used to the new position. I recommend you to change that.

Youssef

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/04/2019 10:13 am
Youssef El Kaisi
Eminent Member

@admin the reply and quote buttons don't wwork?

Youssef

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/04/2019 10:31 am
Aussiemax
Active Member

I did have headaches earlier as mentioned in my first post. But these got completely resolved. My guess is that it is because my tongue muscle has been trained now. Another reason could have been that I leaned to relax in this position rather than involuntarily hard mewing all the time.

I am not sure which is better, but the new position I mentioned has reduced my palate height, increased the width and can see that it is changing the bite. I wish I would have measured my starting point so I could talk about the progress in numbers.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/04/2019 5:26 pm
Aussiemax
Active Member

I do have a question regarding the jaw. If the palate increases in width, will the jaw increase in width as well? Otherwise there is a risk of bites with the molars.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/04/2019 10:04 pm
Forwardthinker1
New Member

Is this a high vaulted palate?

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/05/2019 11:26 am
Aussiemax
Active Member

Looks vaulted to me. 

In my case, there is enough space for the tongue from the sides (width wise) but not enough forward space for the tongue. I am guessing, this is going to be the same for you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/05/2019 7:20 pm
macbeth
New Member
Posted by: @darkindigo

@aussiemax  There are ways to do this... So.... the only person at present who is really paying attention to this is Dr. Sue Lee and Vivos.  Check out Dr. Sue Lee's OSA patient:  https://www.beyondyoursmile.net/gallery   He had a high palate with bilateral crossbite. 

So... you can fix yours with acrylic device... BUT!!!!  You'd want to first create room for the palate to drop into.  Example... a lab tech could put wax on the roof of the maxilla prior to pouring acrylic.  Just go slow on the expansion.  It should come down.  See... with acrylic you get orthopedic movement... not just orthodontic.  You want orthopedic.. not orthodontic.  Dr. Sue Lee's device is geared toward appropriate palatal shaping.  It's lock and load (less time)... but must be paired with braces to avoid flare.  If you want to do it for cheap at home... I would just get a sports mouthguard at Walmart.  If you can see from your photo... the palate is high in the middle portion.  Widening this portion out can reshape the palate.  Truthfully, I'm not sure if you could do this with a mouthguard at Walmart.  That is more for kids.  However, if you want to try... just shape the guard to first off be thin between teeth (don't want to go changing jaw positioning).  I usually make it ever so slightly thinner in the back then the front... Also... you basically want it to be tall on the inside of the teeth so that it can move the palate out.  If you move the palate out and aren't applying pressure at the top, you're fine.  That is Vivos' secret sauce.  There have been acrylic palate expanders around for a while.  They just figured to create room for the palate to drop.  What they missed is big, though... at least for kids... and I'd do it to be safe... shave down IN ADVANCE.  It would seriously likely give faster results.  I'd bet on it... and I'm not a betting person.  Anyway, food puts pressure on your palate, so don't freak out.  Sorry... didn't mean to scare everyone... just some people adjust more (like me... probably from vitamin deficiencies)... but I had quick changes from Mewing and my maxilla lifted up.  Anyway, I don't know how to bring it down.  Many don't notice things, because their bones are solid.

Here's a crazy thought... smile direct only does from canine to canine.. but they'd widen if you ask.  I mention them because they leave a little lip right next to the gums.  This has to be it!  I bet aligners could actually do orthopedic expansion if they scanned each and every time with iTerro (for good fit) and left more of the aligner material on the gums.  It would have to be slow... so as to not injure the gums... but THAT WOULD WORK!  Why are the aligner companies not doing true orthopedic expansion?!  They easily could!  I think they will.  They've got to be smart about this.  You grip that maxilla and pull it out.  I do facepulling and it's not bad.  You get a good grip, though.  Controlled.  I don't know... just a thought.

@darkindigo My palate is very similar. What did you mean by
"you can fix yours with acrylic device... BUT!!!!  You'd want to first create room for the palate to drop into.  Example... a lab tech could put wax on the roof of the maxilla prior to pouring acrylic. "

How would I fix an acrylic expander myself? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/11/2020 3:05 am
Limebike
Eminent Member

@macbeth Just shave off the acrylic touching the upper part of your palate (leave the acrylic touching the sides).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/11/2020 6:31 pm
macbeth
New Member

@limebike Yes I intend on doing that. What would be the purpose of having wax added on the roof of the maxilla prior to pouring acrylic? How does that benefit someone with a vaulted palate?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/11/2020 9:27 pm
Limebike
Eminent Member

@macbeth You put wax on the stone model so that it occupies space that the acrylic then misses.

So you get a gap between the acrylic and the palate if you put the appliance in the mouth.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/11/2020 10:01 pm