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Slack jaw = forward growth  

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EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Not mouth breathing. Slack (and forward) when talking. Slack when mouth is closed. 2mm between front teeth. 4mm or so of space between molars. It gets the whole tongue on the palate and especially the posterior third. It also emphasizes mentalis muscle usage when talking and makes your resting face look happier. 

I prefer a slight underbite jut. It helps my mandible be placed in its more natural position. People with all their teeth might benefit simply from just a slack and not a full-on jut.

My goal is for my front teeth to angle forward more due to this. So far I believe it is working well. My jut is getting weaker, meaning my chin is staying forward but my upper teeth are coming forward and up, making it less of an underbite. 

This is basically the poor man's version of bone anchored maxillary protraction. It utilizes the mandible to drag the tongue more on the palate. Contact between the palate and tongue increases. Masseters feel a lot more active even when speaking. Basically I feel like moving my mandible forward is actually causing me to use my face properly. See I personally slack + jut forward since I have fewer teeth on the bottom (2 premolars extracted). My midface has shortened well due to this alone.

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Posted : 08/05/2019 12:31 am
voltaire
Active Member

From ages 2-12 my younger brother would jut his jaw in a hypnotic back and forth motion during periods of concentration, like playing a game or watching a show. I am convinced this significantly shaped his development. He has good forward growth, a very wide mandible, and strong chin. I have the opposite of these traits. 

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Posted : 08/05/2019 12:01 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Glad to see someone else is experimenting with jutting too. I spent a lot of effort trying to figure out how to keep my teeth together without compromising postural integrity. Molars together, incisors together, favoring one side of the arch over another... nothing worked in the long term. I even triggered some disturbing nerve discomfort in my chest. So far, allowing the mandible to come forward into an underbite has had a more positive impact than any method of keeping the teeth together.

Unlike you though, I don't allow the jaw to slack. I push it forward firmly until I can feel a mild strain near the zygos. I'm still unsure at what height I should keep the jaw in relation to maxillary teeth though. Would it be better to jut down and forward, or up and forward?

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Posted : 08/05/2019 12:48 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

Glad to see someone else is experimenting with jutting too. I spent a lot of effort trying to figure out how to keep my teeth together without compromising postural integrity. Molars together, incisors together, favoring one side of the arch over another... nothing worked in the long term. I even triggered some disturbing nerve discomfort in my chest. So far, allowing the mandible to come forward into an underbite has had a more positive impact than any method of keeping the teeth together.

Unlike you though, I don't allow the jaw to slack. I push it forward firmly until I can feel a mild strain near the zygos. I'm still unsure at what height I should keep the jaw in relation to maxillary teeth though. Would it be better to jut down and forward, or up and forward?

Hey look. The quote function worked!

As far as down and forward vs up and forward, I think it depends on the occlussal plane. A very clockwise rotated maxilla may not allow for much upward movement from a jut. That is my case definitely.

Now I definitely force my mandible forward too. My reasoning for using the term "slack" is based on the fact the teeth are not together and there is space between them. 

I mainly got this idea from seeing people with good jaw development do this. They keep their incisors touching if at all, and if they talk their molars are nowhere near making contact. I found I would keep my molars in closer proximity when I spoke. But now I don't do that. This means my incisors are at least 2 mms apart and my molars maybe 4mm apart (due to clockwise rotation). If I tried moving my lower jaw UP my maxilla would prevent much movement. 

 

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Posted : 08/05/2019 2:45 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

@eddiemoney how is it going? Turned out this was not a beneficial thing for me. Static jutting made my occlusion feel constricted by the end of the day.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 9:27 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: Progress

@eddiemoney how is it going? Turned out this was not a beneficial thing for me. Static jutting made my occlusion feel constricted by the end of the day.

 

@progress

The only way you won't feel the need to allow your mandible to move freely forward and up, stabilizing at the molars, is If you adopt the same old bad body posture you had. Try it and it'll make sense. I'm on the same boat. That's progress in my opinion.

Mewing brings your chin forward to a more relaxed and natural position faster than any changes you'll see on the upper arch as you probably knew. The key to continuing the progress is allowing the mandible to jut confortably forward, effectively allowing for better oral and body posture. You know your neck and spine feel 10 years younger when you let ur mandible relax,especially the cervical. 

People that look good and sort of maintain the looks only for a few years  even tho they're suffering from crânio facial dystrophy usually have a very forward head posture, because it allows the occlusion and especially the mandible to stay sort of PARALEL TO THE GROUND (I think this is key) and not strain your tmj, occlusion, skull, strap muscles and a whole cascade of problems that will appear as we get older. Ofc it works until it doesn't no more and you develop stuff like head tilts and very bad body posture. We do it because of social pressure and wanting to look good enough and sadly we lack the knowledge that it will fux us up in the future. I hope you understand what I mean. I mean you probably did already but yeah. 

BTW, I think this is a clear sign of development on the upper arch and body posture, it means our old occlusion isn't stable anymore. For me it did a Hella of a job for the tmj and ear feelings. 

Thing about mandible jutting or just letting it be naturally forward where it wants to be is the social aspect...thats why we mentally think we have our old occlusion because of social pressures and force it during the day while we interact with people but it just doesnt work anymore, effectivelly puts a huge stress on your back. Very Hard to deal with,quite stressful. 

Most skeletal class 1 deep bites are actually class 3s because they re usually all about body posture. That's why I said that feeling this mandible thing is a clear sign of development. 

I feel like For us that have body postural problems,Tmj, head tilts and whatnot, continuing the progress will only be possible if the skull is allowed to be aligned with the spine WHILE maintaining a good enough oral posture that doesn't strain one side of the cranium more then the other.

Pretty much means we'll have to own the class 3 socially. It could also be a top on top bite at the front teeth. 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 12:02 pm
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Roflcopters
Trusted Member

I feel like most people aren't aware of this and after mewing for a while they start feeling what you described as a constricted occlusion which will be very stressful.

The only thing that's constricted is your body posture and mandible, not your occlusion. Your occlusion was already fked up. 

Also if you keep doing it  while maintaining your mandible in a constricted position you'll be under oxygenated.

Mike mew should have addressed body posture and 'fake deep bites' due to body posture more. 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 12:40 pm
maze liked
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

Pay attention to people with class 3s. They usually have a much better cervical posture than anyone you see.

Class 3s are everywhere, people just hide them. We're not aware of our body. People with seemingly normal class 1s sleep on their stomach on a class 3 and don't k ow about it. 

Again, it's the social pressure coming in. That's why we're all stressed out all the time. We don't own our problems, we hide them. It's the society we live in. Judgemental and most of the times unknowingly hypocritical. That's why you see the word karma getting more and more fame throughout the years. 

 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 12:55 pm
maze liked
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

Anyways, big rants init fam. 

That's why I say body posture first, mewing secondly. Cause when you have a good body posture your tongue will go up there ALONE..

Anddd..if you can get expansion trhouggh appliances right now, go for it. I mean even regular braces without extractions will save you big time and stress and they re not that expensive. 

Mike mew was irresponsible for what he did when he started a war on orthodontists. Yes he's right but the way he delivered the message was dog shite.. It's not how you educate people. 

Expanding the upper arch alone with oral posture isn't worth it in my opinion. The amount of actual strenuous work and stress you'll have to endure is monumental.

Not saying people shouldn't mew.. I do it lightly until I can get my hands on mse or Dna or whatever.. If you're young go for it and see If it wotks, the amount of good changes will be worth and probably come much faster. But if your past the age.. Be prepared for the greatest and hardest sht uve ever done if you're thinking about actual palpable and good results achieved only naturally. 

People are kinda deluded over mewing. It's not the holy grail and good oral posture won't come if you don't fix your spine and hips. 

Going for an homeoblock will give you results in 3 or 4 months that you'd only achieve in years of trying to maintain good enough postures. Much more worth it. Time is the most valuable thing these days. 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 12:58 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It seems unclear to me though, are you concluding for or against jutting?

As I mentioned in another thread in conjuction with the occipital drive, I found that molar (and especially bicuspid) contact locks in and stabilizes the cervical posture better than mandibular jutting does, as molar contact creates a very specific kind of leverage that straightens out the cranial base (I wrote more about this yesterday here and here). Together with lip suction, this way of closing the jaws automatically shifts my head up and back, resulting in a balanced upright posture. The sutural shifts in the back of my head also resumed, which were halted during the jutting experiment.

Pay attention to people with class 3s. They usually have a much better cervical posture than anyone you see.

I too have observed this. Class 3 looks like one degree less severe postural degeneration than class 2, which often co-exists with lordotic curvature. The unique problem with class 3 is that engaging the lateral pterygoids (instead of not engaging any jaw musculature at all, as class 2 folks habitually do) pulls the greater wings of the sphenoid apart in a way that leads to flat midface and unaesthetic downward zygomatic protrusion: https://imgur.com/a/6HAjGL4

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Posted : 29/05/2019 1:31 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: Progress

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It seems unclear to me though, are you concluding for or against jutting?

As I mentioned in another thread in conjuction with the occipital drive, I found that molar (and especially bicuspid) contact locks in and stabilizes the cervical posture better than mandibular jutting does, as molar contact creates a very specific kind of leverage that straightens out the cranial base (I wrote more about this yesterday here and here). Together with lip suction, this way of closing the jaws automatically shifts my head up and back, resulting in a balanced upright posture. The sutural shifts in the back of my head also resumed, which were halted during the jutting experiment.

Pay attention to people with class 3s. They usually have a much better cervical posture than anyone you see.

I too have observed this. Class 3 looks like one degree less severe postural degeneration than class 2, which often co-exists with lordotic curvature. The unique problem with class 3 is that engaging the lateral pterygoids (instead of not engaging any jaw musculature at all, as class 2 folks habitually do) pulls the greater wings of the sphenoid apart in a way that leads to flat midface and unaesthetic downward zygomatic protrusion: https://imgur.com/a/6HAjGL4

 

I think it will depend a lot  on the case but purposely jutting the mandible may not be good and worsen Tmj. At least I don't jut mine. But than again, I have a skeletal crossbite, it's not an easy case and it may be different for other people, even tho I think as a baseline what I said is going to be beneficial for everyone. 

I just focus on the occipital drive and straight posture first in a way the tongue sits in the back of the palate without me forcing it. Then I just relax, take a few deep breaths in and feel where my mandible wants to sit. That allows me to adopt a good cervical posture and the tongue pretty much sits in the palate without me forcing it there or even thinking about it. The only extra force I apply to it is when swallowing, when I'm training diaphragm breathing and pranayama breathing which has pro Ed really effe tive to break the bad oral posture habits I had. I used to sit my tongue more on the right side and with pranayama you can correct that. 

Again. It may be that you have a top on top bite in the front teeth and you can't really get the molars in contact in the meanwhile. I have that on my right side and I just let the bite where it's at. If I move it to a class 1, tmj and the whole constricted occlusion is a problem and if I sort of jut it a little forwards it feels forced and unnatural. 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 2:23 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

@progress

The best way to understand this is by doing hard cardio exercising while maintaining a good body posture, as your body automatically 'jut' the mandible to a position that is airway focused. It's not really jutting the mandible it's more just relaxing it while maximizing oxygenation and maintaining oral posture. It's funny because the tongue will automatically naturally put pressure on the underdeveloped spots you may have. 

Get your heart rate up while breathing trough your mouth or just pretend your breathing hard while maintaining a good posture.

Now stop and slowly let your mandible relaxed go up to where it meets the upper teeth. 

That's what I do and feels natural and airway efficient. Than you just make sure your tongue is up there. But it already should be unconsciously. 

I think it's the best approach to mew correctly. Which isn't rlly mewing, it's just an airway functional approach to posture. 

 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 2:55 pm
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EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

@eddiemoney how is it going? Turned out this was not a beneficial thing for me. Static jutting made my occlusion feel constricted by the end of the day.

 

Not sure what you mean by constricted. But jutting is actually natural for me to get my tongue on the palate since my ortho extracted two premolars on my mandible. In other words by maintaining occlusion I am making it harder to breathe since a 14 tooth arch inside a 16 tooth arch is very unnatural. 

This jutting has helped my incisors procline as well. The goal is to make the chin come forward by allowing a positive inclination of upper incisors and wider canine width. So far it has helped my profile a lot by allowing my mandible the ability to be where it naturally should be. For myself I know it is not only ideal but necessary 

QuantcastMy underbite is getting less pronounced. Soon it will be an overbite with ideal projection. Just a few millimeters to go. Maybe 2-3

 
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Posted : 29/05/2019 4:35 pm
Sceriff liked
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Progress

@eddiemoney how is it going? Turned out this was not a beneficial thing for me. Static jutting made my occlusion feel constricted by the end of the day.

 

Not sure what you mean by constricted. But jutting is actually natural for me to get my tongue on the palate since my ortho extracted two premolars on my mandible. In other words by maintaining occlusion I am making it harder to breathe since a 14 tooth arch inside a 16 tooth arch is very unnatural. 

This jutting has helped my incisors procline as well. The goal is to make the chin come forward by allowing a positive inclination of upper incisors and wider canine width. So far it has helped my profile a lot by allowing my mandible the ability to be where it naturally should be. For myself I know it is not only ideal but necessary 

QuantcastMy underbite is getting less pronounced. Soon it will be an overbite with ideal projection. Just a few millimeters to go. Maybe 2-3

 

I see. By what mechanism are your incisors proclining forward? Are you pushing against them with the tongue? 

By constricted I mean that it felt like the upper arch was moving backwards so that there was even less room for the lower arch. After a period of jutting, it was momentarily harder to bring the molars back together.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 4:59 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

According to LVI/neuromuscular dentistry the jaw muscles shouldn't be exerting any force or tension while at rest. This makes logical sense to me - if the jaw isn't doing anything, the muscles shouldn't be firing.

A maxilla that hasn't developed enough results in a lower jaw that needs to always be working to occlusion. This muscle tension likely extends to the pterygoid muscles and other jaw muscles which can end up holding the maxilla back.

A lack of muscular tension in general makes the most sense to me. A massive amount of tension is held in the jaw/face muscles - perhaps tension/trauma held here tenses the muscles and inhibits maxillary development and movement

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Posted : 02/07/2019 11:08 am
6MAXIMUS3
Active Member

Touch your second molars and then let go. 

Do this with good tongue posture. 

But never jut. 

I used to this but figured out i was wrong. It worsens your bite and chin projection. 

 

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Posted : 03/07/2019 2:43 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I have to jut in my case. I have a smaller arch than my top one. 14 teeth on the bottom and 16 at the top. Without jutting I can't get my tongue on my palate due to these extractions.

Like I said, most if not all good looking people I have met do let their jaws come apart normally except when eating. For me, this just also allows more pressure to be put on my retroclined teeth I got from orthodontics. 

Jutting may be unnatural to a lot of people but my treatment forced me into an even more unnatural pattern. Molars together for me means constricted airway function and inability to activate certain facial muscles as effectively due to the way my lower arch sits so deep into my upper one.

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Posted : 03/07/2019 9:20 am
chiefkeefsosa
Eminent Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: Progress

@eddiemoney how is it going? Turned out this was not a beneficial thing for me. Static jutting made my occlusion feel constricted by the end of the day.

 

Not sure what you mean by constricted. But jutting is actually natural for me to get my tongue on the palate since my ortho extracted two premolars on my mandible. In other words by maintaining occlusion I am making it harder to breathe since a 14 tooth arch inside a 16 tooth arch is very unnatural. 

This jutting has helped my incisors procline as well. The goal is to make the chin come forward by allowing a positive inclination of upper incisors and wider canine width. So far it has helped my profile a lot by allowing my mandible the ability to be where it naturally should be. For myself I know it is not only ideal but necessary 

QuantcastMy underbite is getting less pronounced. Soon it will be an overbite with ideal projection. Just a few millimeters to go. Maybe 2-3

 

hey eddie whats good? can you give us an update on your underbite? Did you finally reach an overbite with ideal projection?

 

If so this means that mewing can cause forward growth of the maxilla right?

This user has been banned from forum participation

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Posted : 02/08/2020 9:43 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @chiefkeefsosa
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: Progress

@eddiemoney how is it going? Turned out this was not a beneficial thing for me. Static jutting made my occlusion feel constricted by the end of the day.

 

Not sure what you mean by constricted. But jutting is actually natural for me to get my tongue on the palate since my ortho extracted two premolars on my mandible. In other words by maintaining occlusion I am making it harder to breathe since a 14 tooth arch inside a 16 tooth arch is very unnatural. 

This jutting has helped my incisors procline as well. The goal is to make the chin come forward by allowing a positive inclination of upper incisors and wider canine width. So far it has helped my profile a lot by allowing my mandible the ability to be where it naturally should be. For myself I know it is not only ideal but necessary 

QuantcastMy underbite is getting less pronounced. Soon it will be an overbite with ideal projection. Just a few millimeters to go. Maybe 2-3

 

hey eddie whats good? can you give us an update on your underbite? Did you finally reach an overbite with ideal projection?

 

If so this means that mewing can cause forward growth of the maxilla right?

Thanks for the reply. It's getting there. Temporalis chewing has helped a lot. I would say maybe 1mm left until proper occlusion. 

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Posted : 03/08/2020 12:56 am
chiefkeefsosa
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney thats great to hear man , seriously.  Once you get that one mm, do you think youll be at 0 cfd, or at least in the 90 precent of correct devlopment range?

Maybe you can finally get a rest from all this mewing haha.

 

Edit: also how many mms of forward growth of the maxilla do you specualte you got from mewing?

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Posted : 03/08/2020 9:13 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @chiefkeefsosa

@eddiemoney thats great to hear man , seriously.  Once you get that one mm, do you think youll be at 0 cfd, or at least in the 90 precent of correct devlopment range?

Maybe you can finally get a rest from all this mewing haha.

 

Edit: also how many mms of forward growth of the maxilla do you specualte you got from mewing?

Idk maybe 3 mm total once it's said and done but I will have to measure my Mew line again. I don't think my CFD will be cured. I think I'll just be closer to correct development. At the moment if I line up my mandible in my relaxed/no jut placement I am more at an edge-to-edge bite. But one more mm and I will be at an overbite so that is exciting

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Posted : 03/08/2020 11:36 am
mysterecessed
Active Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: Progress

@eddiemoney how is it going? Turned out this was not a beneficial thing for me. Static jutting made my occlusion feel constricted by the end of the day.

 

Not sure what you mean by constricted. But jutting is actually natural for me to get my tongue on the palate since my ortho extracted two premolars on my mandible. In other words by maintaining occlusion I am making it harder to breathe since a 14 tooth arch inside a 16 tooth arch is very unnatural. 

This jutting has helped my incisors procline as well. The goal is to make the chin come forward by allowing a positive inclination of upper incisors and wider canine width. So far it has helped my profile a lot by allowing my mandible the ability to be where it naturally should be. For myself I know it is not only ideal but necessary 

QuantcastMy underbite is getting less pronounced. Soon it will be an overbite with ideal projection. Just a few millimeters to go. Maybe 2-3

 

So do you mean that if you allow your mandible to close relaxed now, you have an underbite? I have sort of the same thing, I can switch between a normal bite and an underbite without feeling like I am "jutting" or forcing my mandible forward, it feels decently relaxed either way. 

How do you push (direction) with your tongue? How much force do you use?

Also, when you say "overbite with ideal projection", do you mean your upper palate is moving upwards and forwards? How long did it take you for the few mm of progress? Do you do this 24/7 in public too? Do you chew with your jaw set like this?

 

I'm very interested in this theory you're presenting, I discovered a few months ago that my mandible seemed to be held back by the lack of forward growth of my maxilla, but if relaxed 100%, seemed to result in a very slight overbite, I'm not sure if it was chewing that resulted in it or if it was like that all along, but I didn't realise. Neither positioning felt wrong or strained, but I continued with keeping my bite correct which makes my mandible look more recessed.

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Posted : 07/08/2020 11:16 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@mysterecessed

My natural alignment is Class 3, so an underbite is just normal for me as it is. I couldn't force Class 2 alignment if I tried. 

What is improving is how my upper teeth align in "neutral" mandible posture. If I neither retract or protract my jaw, they sit edge to edge now as opposed to my lower teeth being ahead of my upper ones. 

When I used to relax my jaw (engage no musculature to hold it in place at rest), my lower teeth would be ahead of my upper ones. Now they seem lined up. But it seems if my upper teeth move 1mm then my lower teeth will be behind my upper ones in resting posture.

Has my maxilla moved forward? Hard to say. Maybe what's more accurate is my body has adjusted to a relaxed mandible position by having my tongue push my teeth out to positions that fit around my lower jaw's placement. But then again my cheekbones are more prominent, though not model tier since I never had robust cheeks to begin with from a genetic standpoint. 

What I will say is changing my head posture has rotated my maxilla clockwise from simply holding my head in its proper position. Not a surgical type rotation, just postural. This head position I try to hold constantly. Combined with the relaxed jaw position, I hold this posture in public and no one seems to notice. Any comments I have gotten is that my face looks better but with no elaboration on how. I think it's because people can't perceive these changes like we can. 

I think if I never changed my head posture that people would probably notice my changed jaw position more. But that's because I think the two counteract each other. If you shorten your neck (turn your head up) and jut your jaw, it is a lot more noticeable than if you chin tuck and then jut your jaw. But in my case it isn't really jutting since I am not using any musculature to achieve this, just relaxing my mandible and letting my tongue correctly position itself. 

 

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Posted : 08/08/2020 12:08 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

I nearly feel rude to ask this again, but is there any chance we will get to see your progress pictures any time soon? Would be really cool to see the changes. Your bite in particular!

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Posted : 08/08/2020 1:30 pm
TheBeastPanda
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney Which is more recommend temporalis or masseter chewing? And which would you recommend.

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Posted : 01/11/2020 5:18 pm
lo12288
Active Member

@voltaire So do you guys think that it is all about having your lips together? 

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Posted : 02/11/2020 3:48 pm
lo12288
Active Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Not mouth breathing. Slack (and forward) when talking. Slack when mouth is closed. 2mm between front teeth. 4mm or so of space between molars. It gets the whole tongue on the palate and especially the posterior third. It also emphasizes mentalis muscle usage when talking and makes your resting face look happier. 

I prefer a slight underbite jut. It helps my mandible be placed in its more natural position. People with all their teeth might benefit simply from just a slack and not a full-on jut.

My goal is for my front teeth to angle forward more due to this. So far I believe it is working well. My jut is getting weaker, meaning my chin is staying forward but my upper teeth are coming forward and up, making it less of an underbite. 

This is basically the poor man's version of bone anchored maxillary protraction. It utilizes the mandible to drag the tongue more on the palate. Contact between the palate and tongue increases. Masseters feel a lot more active even when speaking. Basically I feel like moving my mandible forward is actually causing me to use my face properly. See I personally slack + jut forward since I have fewer teeth on the bottom (2 premolars extracted). My midface has shortened well due to this alone.

Age?

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Posted : 02/11/2020 7:32 pm
lo12288
Active Member

@roflcopters I feel like For us that have body postural problems,Tmj, head tilts and whatnot, continuing the progress will only be possible if the skull is allowed to be aligned with the spine WHILE maintaining a good enough oral posture that doesn't strain one side of the cranium more then the other.

I feel like the right way at least for me is as follows: correct distribution of the wheight on the feet, legs shouldn't be blocked, they have to bend a little, abdominal transverse activated, "grow" upwards to the roof/sky with your head and torso, this way my face feel like it is being compressed, maybe it leads to shortening of the face, also the bite clenchs naturally this way

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Posted : 02/11/2020 9:08 pm