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Skull Shapes and Facial Fat  

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PaperBag
Estimable Member

Does anyone else think some face shapes look better with a bit of fat on them? I've wondered about this for a while.
Example: my twin brother and I are both quite underweight. His face isn't perfect but CFD is low, I had ortho treatment and have a recessed face.

We don't have the same skull shape, though. His face has always been more narrow and diamond shaped and mine has always been wider/heart shaped. He looks fine enough at a low weight, but my skull shape on a tiny frame makes me look like a lollipop. It doesn't really look natural. My recession is clearly a main factor but I have a frequently psychotic looking resting expression because my eyes have no support. I always thought it was purely from no maxillary support but there's very little fat around there and I didn't always look this insane. My right eyelid sometimes folds over and makes me look angry, which didn't seem to happen until the past few years. While I knew there was something wrong with my face for many years prior, I coincidentally found out about orthotropics in 2015 when at my skinniest.

I saw an orthodontist a few weeks ago, and she was very antagonistic towards everything I mentioned. She kept denying I had CFD and claimed I had a beautiful face (incorrect) but she said I should weigh at least 140 pounds for my height of 5'7. (currently 115) My current weight obviously isn't healthy, as I'm sure I would still look a bit off with a fully developed face. 10 years ago, I was mildly overweight at 140 (it wasn't muscle) and went to almost 190 in a year from taking SSRIs, then lost it all through keto and probably lost further muscle mass as well. I think my face looked a lot better when I weighed a bit more but it's hard to know if I'm mildly or severely underweight when my brother probably weighs even less than I do and yet looks much more well proportioned. Not just saying that due to his face causing a Halo effect; he's almost always been skinny and I used to weigh a bit more. Then I ballooned and lost weight and we later both became even more gaunt. Penn Jillette and John Goodman lost a dramatic amount of weight and they look ghoulish from a lot of loose skin, but I don't have that and would probably have had to been more overweight for a longer period of time at an older age for it to occur.

Long story short, it seems like Jack Black or Post Malone look fine with extra weight in the face and someone like Justin Bieber would look weird. My frame is similar to Justin's, albeit a skinnyfat version, so it's quite confusing because I'm unsure if it comes down to skull shape or being an ectomorph/endomorph matters more for such a thing. A lot of people say women look better with a few extra pounds instead of an overly sharp face, but it doesn't seem as straight forward for men because that can easily result in an overly neotenous look.

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Posted : 31/01/2020 5:45 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

No such thing as an endomorph or ectomorph but I agree that some faces need fat to look supported. But as a guy if your cheeks are chubby you risk looking like a big kid. Truth be told though the only guys who look good with no fat on their face are those with broad zygos, high fwhr, and a tall ramus. Conversely a guy with a short ramus can't add too much fat to his face or else he will look like a cherub. 

I say as long as your ramus has decent length and you don't store too much fat on your cheeks you can pull off a bit of a chubby face. Heck someone like Michael B. Jordan can have a shorter and rounder baby face yet girls don't seem to mind. I feel like if a guy has an athletic body with a chubby face then it's OK since he just looks like a young guy who plays sports. Like I have seen enough round faced guys that had a decent body still get called hot/fine/other attractive description. So I think the whole hollow cheeks thing is somewhat of a meme that doesn't go into making one attractive. Chubby face + chubby body is entirely different. That just makes one look chubby. 

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Posted : 31/01/2020 7:20 pm
PaperBag liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@EddieMoney
How are endo/ectomorph types not real? Regardless, I agree about ramus length being important. Some people don't need much weight to look blinded by their own fat cheeks. My final orthodontic photos from 10 years ago are the only instance my brother says I ever looked good, and he has no qualms with pointing out my current recession right to my face. I weighed 160 pounds of fat at that time so it's not something to strive for. Being fat in addition to short is a terrible look. Still, I don't know why I was ever hypnotized by the allure of hollow cheeks when my features have never suited them and likely wouldn't even with a proper face. About five years ago, I was thin enough to have hollow cheeks and they exacerbated my CFD and made me look like a nerdy heroin junkie.

This guy probably would have been a better example to use of facial fat. He has great development and looks better with a bit of fat. I always thought he looked more overweight than he actually is, which is to say barely if at all.

His ramus doesn't look to be very long, though his mandible curves a lot.

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Posted : 31/01/2020 8:10 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

Since facial fat is genetic I would say that having a regular amount of it on a face looks fine provided the skull is developed properly for the fat to wrap around it in a correct way. Some people are just lucky and have good full faces despite CFD.

@eddiemoney

Can you expand on body types not existing? So no such thing as ecto, endo or mesomorph?

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Posted : 31/01/2020 8:16 pm
PaperBag liked
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

There is no scientific basis for body types. It was a meme that was touted as science but means nothing but conjecture. Like someone who is overweight is an endomorph but if they get to 6% bodyfat with big muscles nobody would classify them as an endomorph but instead a mesomorph. Likewise if someone starved themselves they would be classed as ecto but if they gained weight and were 40% bodyfat they would be endo to someone that never knew they were emaciated before.

Point is it's just a fancy way of saying someone looks skinny, muscular, or fat. But these aren't constants. Nobody is "naturally athletic". When I was 25 I would eat 6000 calories and stay in the low teens/high single digit bodyfat ranges. If someone saw me they'd say I eas naturally athletic. Couple that with the fact I have broad shoulders and tiny hips, I look more mesomorph than the average guy. Because my waist looks small and shoulders broad. On top of that my proportions make me look like an athlete because I have long limbs and a short torso.

But now I am 34 and just fat and sloppy and eating over 2500 calories makes me gain weight. Nobody would look and say I am a mesomorph now. In fact I know tons of people with tiny bone structures who everyone classfies as endomorphic simply because they are fat. I can look at someone and see if they have a small frame, yet it seems categorically all fat people are classed as endomorphic so really it just means a title for what you look like in the moment. If these small boned (narrow framed) fat people lost fat they would be ectomorphs again. Some small boned women even store a lot of fat in their butt and hips, prompting them to think their hip bones are broad. No, you're just fat. Because when it comes off, the butt and hips are nowhere near as disproportionate. Fat gain can throw off your proportions and make your frame look larger. Doesn't mean you became a larger framed person nor does it mean you always had "fat genes".

You think people who live their lives doing physical labor and burning calories ever have "fat genes"? Well, they do in the fact they're human but the point is everyone has a fat gene. You just have to live like a fat person and your metabolism slows down and you become it. There, no need to have been born an endomorph. 

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Posted : 31/01/2020 10:38 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

 

This guy probably would have been a better example to use of facial fat. He has great development and looks better with a bit of fat. I always thought he looked more overweight than he actually is, which is to say barely if at all.

His ramus doesn't look to be very long, though his mandible curves a lot.

This post shows how overrated gonial angle is in facial harmony. It doesn't make any difference IMO. Lots of good looking people with high gonial angles and decent facial harmony without a square jaw. 

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Posted : 01/02/2020 1:44 pm
PaperBag liked
Elwynn
Estimable Member

I'm a 5'10 male and I weight 130 pounds, which makes me pretty skinny. Despite this, I have a chubby-looking face, because of poor facial development, and perhaps coupled with my overuse of cheek muscles. There's a lot of "loose" skin on my face that lacks support.

I saw an orthodontist a few weeks ago, and she was very antagonistic towards everything I mentioned. She kept denying I had CFD and claimed I had a beautiful face (incorrect) but she said I should weigh at least 140 pounds for my height of 5'7.

This is tangential, but I recently received many compliments from a female barber about how nice my hair is, despite the fact that it's obviously thinning, and that I have dandruff and inflammation of the scalp in one region (side effect of a drug I was taking, by the way). People, and especially experts whose professions relate to aesthetics, will be keen to affirm your attractiveness, even if it's not true. They probably do it partly out of good will, and partly to make themselves feel more comfortable around you. Just an observation.

24 years old

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Posted : 02/02/2020 12:25 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@elwynn

I had a chubby face by default for a long time, as well, which made me think I was still overweight. After I lost 60 pounds, it looked like a deflated balloon (uneven and chunky looking skin on top of a hollow, gaunt structure) and I imagine hyperactive buccinators played a big role. If you had prior orthodontic treatment, continual retainer usage might make it worse. I was given clear retainers that quickly reopened my bite, and my upper teeth looked so asymmetrical. My whole mouth looked dished in and stupid, I don't know how to describe it but it made my lower third look even weaker. After using a wired retainer for a few years and then not using my cheeks to swallow, my teeth and face look much more even in spite of CFD. Do you have a high arched palate, by chance? I suspect that this would encourage using the cheeks when swallowing if the tongue can't fully make contact with the palate.

This is tangential, but I recently received many compliments from a female barber about how nice my hair is, despite the fact that it's obviously thinning, and that I have dandruff and inflammation of the scalp in one region (side effect of a drug I was taking, by the way). People, and especially experts whose professions relate to aesthetics, will be keen to affirm your attractiveness, even if it's not true. They probably do it partly out of good will, and partly to make themselves feel more comfortable around you. Just an observation.

Having been on the receiving end many times, I completely agree that people do this. Hair and the face, especially, are such personal features that they're linked to who you are, so getting an honest opinion is difficult. On the other hand, this doctor was instantly rude and made no effort to be comfortable or friendly around me at all. There wasn't anything for her to gain from being courteous because it took a minute to get told she wouldn't treat me for anything due to there being nothing to treat. The appointment was essentially spent lying on my back for 10 minutes getting berated for obsessing over nothing while she traced her finger over my cheekbones/jawline to illustrate how prominent they supposedly are. She said my palate is broad enough to require the largest possible tray for impressions and if she was treating me, she would make it narrower. No reason for that was given. While I'm not sensitive about it at all, I did think at the time that her asking me about my weight was possibly out of line, but it was the only thing from the visit that made any reasonable sense. She probably firmly believes everything she said, with how many orthodontists are only trained to look at the teeth.

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Posted : 02/02/2020 2:16 am
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Slinky
Trusted Member

Does facial fat have an effect on eye hollows? I've consistently seen dark circles on skinny guys despite decent forward growth. 

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Posted : 02/02/2020 8:54 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@paperbag

I had a chubby face by default for a long time, as well, which made me think I was still overweight. After I lost 60 pounds, it looked like a deflated balloon (uneven and chunky looking skin on top of a hollow, gaunt structure) and I imagine hyperactive buccinators played a big role. If you had prior orthodontic treatment, continual retainer usage might make it worse. I was given clear retainers that quickly reopened my bite, and my upper teeth looked so asymmetrical. My whole mouth looked dished in and stupid, I don't know how to describe it but it made my lower third look even weaker. After using a wired retainer for a few years and then not using my cheeks to swallow, my teeth and face look much more even in spite of CFD. Do you have a high arched palate, by chance? I suspect that this would encourage using the cheeks when swallowing if the tongue can't fully make contact with the palate.

When I was about 13-14, I received orthodontic "treatment". The orthodontist recommended extractions of 4 molars, but I - having done some online research about the matter - refused. So, the treatment was performed without extractions. Now, I always had an overbite (which was one of the main reasons for why my parents took me to an orthodontist). However, after the treatment, my overbite was not only NOT fixed, but my front teeth became significantly proclined. It's as if instead of training my lower jaw to rest in a more forward position, the orthodontist tried to solve the problem by tipping my teeth forward, to give the illusion that my occlusion was correct. As a result of my teeth tipping forward, I have a receding chin.

To answer your question, yes, it seems to me that I do have a high-arched palate. This makes it difficult for me to place the posterior third of my tongue on my palate. I used to not be able to do it at all. Recently, I've learned to do it using tongue-suction, and it's been getting easier, but if I'm not focused on it, my tongue falls down. Effectively, I have my tongue in the correct position maybe 40% of the time.

I'm waiting to receive a palate expander, and I'm hoping that it will lessen the vault of my palate.

24 years old

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Posted : 02/02/2020 1:25 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member
Posted by: @slinky

Does facial fat have an effect on eye hollows? I've consistently seen dark circles on skinny guys despite decent forward growth. 

I've noticed that, too. Most internet results don't mention anything about eye circles being caused from bone structure and instead go with the common answer of "you're tired", which sounds like an old wives' tale. A bunch of other answers include dehydration, genetics, allergies, and rubbing your eyes too much. I don't know if there's a perfect amount of fat that makes them go away or if fat just obscures being able to see them and the cause isn't fixed.

@Elwynn 
Weird how you were urged to remove teeth despite a 40mm IMW, and it's pretty rare to hear about bottom teeth getting proclined to mimic a proper occlusion. Did you discover any special technique to achieve tongue suction? I can almost never make it work.

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Posted : 05/02/2020 4:11 am
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

weird. i have retroclined teeth (likely from braces) and i still have recessed chin. i am class 2 so i guess that is the issue idk.

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Posted : 05/02/2020 11:10 am
mr.mewing
Estimable Member

the terms endomorph ectomorph and mesomorph is more based on the skeletal structure of a person  meso morph have like really wide hips meso are the ones with the best v tapers like a reverse dorito and the ectomorph is a guy who has a hard time gaining muscle this the guy with a narrow skull 

gregg douchette made a video about this topic and he said your not only a ectomorph you can have some meso morph in you and some endo in you 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xkn76Q7qpY

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Posted : 05/02/2020 11:22 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@paperbag

Weird how you were urged to remove teeth despite a 40mm IMW...

Yes, it is weird, though keep in mind that I was about 13 at the time, so my IMW might have been different. Still, I do remember the orthodontist calling it "narrow".

...and it's pretty rare to hear about bottom teeth getting proclined to mimic a proper occlusion.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the orthodontists exact idea was, but that was the end result (which, as I recall, he himself wasn't too thrilled about).

I sometimes feel like I'm the only one here who has proclined bottom incisors. I hope that once I receive my palate expander, I will be able to increase my IMW, and that will lessen the forward-flaring of my teeth. This should in turn improve my chin projection. I have consulted a functional orthodontist before and that's what he said would occur with expansion (I only chose not to pursue treatment with him because of the steep price).

Did you discover any special technique to achieve tongue suction? I can almost never make it work.

Keep in mind that I can only maintain tongue suction for maybe around 40% of the day or less. When I'm not focused on it, I lose it. In any case, I didn't discover any singular technique; it was a process. I learned how to do it naturally, over a period of several months involving lots of trial and error. By that, I mean constantly analyzing my oral posture and trying out new ways of arranging my tongue, lips, hyoid etc. I can't recall the first time that it "clicked", because like I said, it was a gradual process, but there was a time when I realized that my suction was stronger and more evenly spread throughout the tongue than it had before. Shortly after noticing this, I lost the suction and couldn't get it back...until the next day that I focused on it. Eventually, the times that I was employing tongue suction became more frequent, and that brings me to where I'm at now: a few hours of tongue suction spread throughout each day.

I suspect that my IMW has increased a bit, because previously, my tongue could hardly at all fit between my teeth, whereas now it fits, despite being quite tight. However, I don't think it was proper palate expansion. Most likely, it was just teeth tipping (which is why I'm giving the expander a try now). In any case, whether the expansion was real or superficial, it did give my tongue a bit more room to induce suction.

As for how I go about suctioning my tongue in the first place: I retract my tongue together with my hyoid to touch the very back of my soft palate, and I move my tongue forward, to slide it in between my teeth, stopping when the tip reaches the alveolar ridge. I then swallow, while pushing up against the palate with my tongue, focusing on the posterior third. This evens out my tongue and "glues" it to the palate, but that only happens when the whole tongue is in between all the teeth. Occasionally, the back of my tongue will begin drooping down. At that point, I readjust, and swallow again. It's not very comfortable, but it's getting easier. Oh, and keep in mind that a bad lip seal or lack thereof will either make this more difficult, or impossible (at least that has been my experience). So, don't just close your mouth; close it with lips suctioned together in a relaxed state. When I do this, I feel my lips pressing gently against my teeth (though maybe you won't feel this if your teeth aren't proclined).

I'm not sure if what I wrote help, but I hope that you'll find it useful. Good luck!

24 years old

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Posted : 05/02/2020 3:33 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@oatmeal

If your mandible is too far back, then it could possibly be stretching your lower lip forward in order to meet with the upper lip, in turn lessening chin projection. Do it seem that way to you?

What about the gums of your lower teeth: do they retrocline along with your teeth, do they stand straight while only the tips of your teeth retrocline, or are the gums tipped forward while the tips of your teeth retrocline? I hope that this question makes sense.

24 years old

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Posted : 05/02/2020 4:00 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Upper tooth projection doesn't have any direct correlation with chin projection. It's based on too many factors like your bone development, resting lip muscle tone, and mandible position. You can have people with strong chins and overbites, strong chins with underbites, weak chins with overbites, weak chins with underbites, it really isn't consistent. 

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Posted : 05/02/2020 5:15 pm
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

@elwynn

my lower lip does exactly that, yeah. it seems as if my lower incisors slightly procline, but i cannot tell too well

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Posted : 05/02/2020 7:02 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @mr-mewing

the terms endomorph ectomorph and mesomorph is more based on the skeletal structure of a person  meso morph have like really wide hips meso are the ones with the best v tapers like a reverse dorito and the ectomorph is a guy who has a hard time gaining muscle this the guy with a narrow skull 

gregg douchette made a video about this topic and he said your not only a ectomorph you can have some meso morph in you and some endo in you 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xkn76Q7qpY

It has evolved into that meaning. The original definition of the "somatotypes" extended even into personality differences between the different structures. So it isn't based in hard science, just one guy's theory. 

And just because someone has a narrow bone structure (as you define an ectomorph) doesn't mean they have a hard time putting muscle on. I have known many small framed people build significant amounts of muscle. 

 

 

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Posted : 05/02/2020 7:13 pm
Elwynn liked
Sailor87
Eminent Member

And I know a guy with a wide skull and wide palate, who has a small frame and cant put on muscle.

They may be usefull steroetypes, but most people are a mix. 

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Posted : 06/02/2020 10:16 am