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Should I get rid of my fixed retainer  

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Trappey
Active Member

im a 22yo guy and I’ve had fixed retainers on top and lower teeth for 8 years now since ending my braces treatment. Recently I got the top retainer renewed because it was broken. Top retainer covers 6 teeth and bottom also covers 6 teeth. 

What do you think? Should I keep them in?

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Posted : 21/07/2019 5:00 pm
Freddie
Eminent Member

Definitely. I’ve developed a huge asymmetry because of it

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Posted : 21/07/2019 7:22 pm
Trappey
Active Member

Well I paid 200 USD a few weeks ago to get them renewed. I would like to know if they hinder any process, if there even is one to begin with at age 22?

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Posted : 21/07/2019 7:56 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

I cannot say either way to remove or keep the retainers since I don't want to be responsible for it, I will only speak on my experience. Cleaning with permanent retainers is such a hassle, permanent retainers also hold your teeth in an unnatural position. For myself, my orthodontist for some idiotic reason had my lower teeth tilted forward, my bite had the top and front teeth touched edge to edge which is not what normal occlusion is supposed to be like. If you decide to remove your permanent retainer be aware that your teeth will feel a little sore for like a day, I'm not sure how to explain exactly, but basically this is your teeth shifting ever so slightly. Because the retainers hold the teeth in an unnatural fixed position removing them will free up the teeth and they'll revert to how they're supposed to be. This might be bad or good depending on how you view it, it could be bad because "reverting to how they're supposed to be" means they'll possibly become crooked. How I viewed it was that why would you get treatment to "fix" something only to not actually have it fixed and therefore have to wear something the rest of your life? On top of that it's a hassle to clean, for myself, I developed plaque and white gunk that was impossible to clean whether I used a water floss, a normal floss that was threaded through, or brushed my teeth with an electric tooth brush. In my view, there's much superior treatments out there that do not require you having to wear something the rest of your life. In addition, that mewing is the best "treatment" you can give yourself; it's free and on top of that you develop the habits you were lacking that caused the problem in the first place. There's anecdotes around this forum of people expanding their palate from mewing, even as adults, so it's definitely possible imo. Progress claims he expanded 9mm I think, and jamo/neveragain while not specifying how much he expanded gave himself a millimeter diastema (gap in the two front teeth) as well as claiming that he used to have crooked upper right lateral incisor and you can tell he's got straight teeth now, he's also got the best results imo for upswinging the maxilla. The type of change you see in his maxilla would require a lot of force from the tongue throughout the day, so it's safe to say even though he didn't document the results that his palate expanded quite a bit.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/maybe-you-recognize-me-from-username-im-one-of-the-guys-in-the-success-thread-heheheehehehe-just-wanted-to-show-yall-a-14-month-palate-change-from-mewing/

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/progress-of-progress-two-year-skull-change/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/07/2019 9:25 pm
Trappey
Active Member

So I shouldn’t really get them out if I don’t have any problems with cleaning? Is mewing progress actually not possible with fixed retainers? Mike mew himself said that retainers that cover the 4 top teeth are actually good?  

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Posted : 22/07/2019 4:18 am
sinned
Estimable Member

Retainers will affect progress slightly.

Image result for narrow vs wide palate

Take this person for example, you can see their front 4-6 teeth have also moved to new positions, when you expand the palate all the teeth or moving/shifting. This example of course is an exaggerated case. It depends on your situation, your goal, and how wide your palate is. I cannot say either way whether you should or should not. Search up more example of palate expansion on the internet to see how the teeth move. Perhaps find a before pic similar to your IMW and see how much the front teeth change to get an idea of whether or not or how much the retainers will affect your progress.

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Posted : 22/07/2019 5:11 am
Trappey
Active Member

But at age 22, I will never be able to achieve significant palate expansion just by mewing..

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Posted : 22/07/2019 5:49 am
harrykanemaxilla
Trusted Member

Most traditional orthodontists give patients a v shaped arch especially if the palette is narrow and without extractions. I myself am 17 years old and have retainers that I plan to take out. My orthodontist luckily didnt extract teeth but the result of the treatment is a narrow palette with an unnatural incisor tilt which makes my mandible sit further back. 

These two photos compare the dental arches of the wide palette and the narrow palette. The narrow pallet has a smaller intercanine width making the incisors curve into more of a v shape than the wide palette. My orthodontic retainers has kept my teeth in the unideal v shaped arch with a very small intercanine width.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/07/2019 8:27 am
Trappey
Active Member

Come on I wasted 200 USD two weeks ago to get them renewed. Should I really get them out now? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/07/2019 9:10 am
sinned
Estimable Member

If you don't care about your teeth shifting back remove them, if you are dedicated to mewing remove them, if you have a plan for some sort of expansion in the future with an appliance remove them, if you do care about your teeth shifting and are also not willing to make it a habit to mew 24/7 then don't remove it. Also your claim that mewing can't expand the palate of an adult is wrong, Progress who was 23 when he started and is now 26 has achieved 9-10 mm of expansion, there's also other people who are adults and even older who managed to get expansion I just forgot their names. You really think you can't expand when a 70 year old managed to expand his palate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5S5AZ50pAE&feature=youtu.be

 

In addition, as someone who's had experience with expanders particularly with an RPE herbst appliance when I was 13, before I knew about mewing, the force I'm able to generate from my tongue in a chin tuck/proper head posture is more than I got from an RPE, the tongue is a very strong muscle. I gauge the force by how much "soreness" I felt, with an RPE I definitely felt it but it wasn't that bad, mewing spreads out the force on the palate yet I still can generate more force from my tongue. The RPE expands the palate 0.5-1 mm a day to give you an idea. The issue isn't actually can the tongue produce enough force, the issue is all mental really. With an appliance you can wear it and forget about it even if there's slight discomfort, with mewing you can easily just stop posturing your tongue.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/07/2019 12:12 am
Trappey
Active Member
Posted by: sinned

If you don't care about your teeth shifting back remove them, if you are dedicated to mewing remove them, if you have a plan for some sort of expansion in the future with an appliance remove them, if you do care about your teeth shifting and are also not willing to make it a habit to mew 24/7 then don't remove it. Also your claim that mewing can't expand the palate of an adult is wrong, Progress who was 23 when he started and is now 26 has achieved 9-10 mm of expansion, there's also other people who are adults and even older who managed to get expansion I just forgot their names. You really think you can't expand when a 70 year old managed to expand his palate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5S5AZ50pAE&feature=youtu.be

 

In addition, as someone who's had experience with expanders particularly with an RPE herbst appliance when I was 13, before I knew about mewing, the force I'm able to generate from my tongue in a chin tuck/proper head posture is more than I got from an RPE, the tongue is a very strong muscle. I gauge the force by how much "soreness" I felt, with an RPE I definitely felt it but it wasn't that bad, mewing spreads out the force on the palate yet I still can generate more force from my tongue. The RPE expands the palate 0.5-1 mm a day to give you an idea. The issue isn't actually can the tongue produce enough force, the issue is all mental really. With an appliance you can wear it and forget about it even if there's slight discomfort, with mewing you can easily just stop posturing your tongue.

I still don’t understand how permanent retainers would hinder any mewing progress. Expander appliances also don’t touch the teeth covered by the retainer 

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Posted : 23/07/2019 3:52 am
sinned
Estimable Member

It wouldn't affect the progress significantly but it would affect it a little bit. From harrykane's image you can tell that a wider palate also has wider later incisor width and inter canine width which are the teeth affected by the permanent retainers, you can tell there's a slight difference with the bigger palate being a more U shape.

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Posted : 23/07/2019 7:11 am
Trappey
Active Member
Posted by: sinned

It wouldn't affect the progress significantly but it would affect it a little bit. From harrykane's image you can tell that a wider palate also has wider later incisor width and inter canine width which are the teeth affected by the permanent retainers, you can tell there's a slight difference with the bigger palate being a more U shape.

Do you think reducing the retainer to only cover 4 teeth is enough or do I have to get rid of the retainer entirely? Right now it covers the front 6 teeth

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/07/2019 8:09 am
harrykanemaxilla
Trusted Member
Posted by: sinned

It wouldn't affect the progress significantly but it would affect it a little bit. From harrykane's image you can tell that a wider palate also has wider later incisor width and inter canine width which are the teeth affected by the permanent retainers, you can tell there's a slight difference with the bigger palate being a more U shape.

@sinned

 

My retainers coming off once my posture and my sleep mew game is good. In the meantime. Do you think that mewing correctly with the retainers will still be able to expand my molar and my  pre molar widths?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/07/2019 5:03 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

Yeah, you can still get expansion it's just the 4-6 front teeth won't move/expand. Even if you do take off the retainers it will take a while for teeth to start shifting back to how they were, unless you were to just start mouth breathing and have really bad tongue/head posture.  Also it doesn't take that big of a palate to have straight teeth for the most part, even Mike Mew strives for somewhere in the 40's I think, like 40-45. If your IMW is in the 40s you'll probably have straight teeth. I don't think it takes a particularly long time to achieve this either. Eddiemoney and progress were able to expand by like 1mm a month which would be fast enough expansion to prevent your teeth shifting back to being crooked.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/07/2019 5:56 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Trusted Member
Posted by: sinned

the force I'm able to generate from my tongue in a chin tuck/proper head posture is more than I got from an RPE, the tongue is a very strong muscle.

@sinned 

is the strong force that you can generate in the chin tuck from hard mewing or just soft mewing in the tuck?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/07/2019 6:24 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@harrykanemaxilla

I just do a strong swallow + chin tuck. Basically during a swallow when the tongue goes up and gets plastered over the roof of the mouth I try to hold that and chin tuck. In my opinion these two things are important as a strong swallow will reinforce tongue posture as well as getting your tongue in a suction hold, a chin tuck makes tongue posture easier as well, I actually notice when I do a swallow to get my tongue on the roof of my mouth and then afterwards chin tuck the tongue instantly starts producing more force, I'm not sure why exactly. So doing a firm/strong swallow, maybe try doing a cheesy smile or separate your cheeks from your teeth with your fingers, hold that position of the tongue when the swallow is finished and chin tuck, or do the swallow while chin tucking. Personally I don't like doing a swallow with a full chin tuck because the throat is more constricted.

One caveat I'd like to mention with the swallow is I push forwards with the tip of tongue, because there's a lack of forward growth/expansion in the maxilla many people have vaulted palates, the swallow should be starting above the front teeth so I push against the vaulted area above my front teeth. Doing this actually makes it easier to swallow with a vaulted palate, essentially during a swallow your tongue is just pushing against the roof of the mouth from the tip to the back, so with a vaulted palate it would make sense that you need to push against the vaulted area. The problem if you have a vaulted palate is there's no way to push "up" on the palate with the tip of the tongue, unless you get your tongue further back until it's to the flat part. If you look at the images you posted you'll see with the narrow palate there's a "vaulted" (vault literally meaning arched area) area and there's a small flat area of the palate. With the wider palate it's completely flat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQm5RCz9Pxc&t=

To illustrate what I mean you can see in this video animation the tongue initiates the swallow at the tip and brings the saliva/bolus/liquid to back of the mouth. A lot of people have vaulted palates which makes this harder, you have to adapt and push the tongue the tip of the tongue forward, not on the teeth but the vaulted area above the front teeth.

Like this basically if that makes sense.

Before_Upper.jpg

44 Weeks Upper_Full Arch.jpg

This is what the AGGA appliance does basically, it pushes forward on the vaulted area of the palate, it anchors to the teeth though unfortunately. You can tell the slight difference in the palate of Ronald in the before and after, before it looks more vaulted while after it looks flatter.

I kind of went off topic, to answer your summarize my answer to your question basically I keep the tongue on the roof of my mouth after a good/strong swallow and chin tuck. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/07/2019 8:47 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@harrykanemaxilla

Here's another before and after, btw sorry Trappey for this not being related to your question. It seems like expansion fixes a vaulted palate, particularly forward expansion.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/07/2019 8:53 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Trusted Member

@sinned

Whenever I swallow (mainly when drinking) I play a game to myself of how much force can I push upwards, forwards, and sideways. I swallow in a chin tuck too. Every morning I wake up and look forward to playing the game as I rehydrate in the morning. Its fun. Much more enjoyable and no pain compared to my original between teeth swallow. 

How long have you been mewing for and what improvements have you seen?

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Posted : 24/07/2019 5:39 pm
Trappey
Active Member

So what do i do? I think I just keep the retainer in, no? Seems like palate expansion is still possible despite the retainer

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/07/2019 6:46 pm
printfactory
Eminent Member

Have you seen this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPlse4UoMLQ

I am in a similar position and followed his advice and have fixed retainers now. My plan is to try to widen my arches and if it works maybe get rid of them in 2 years. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/07/2019 5:53 am
Fred
 Fred
Estimable Member

What are fixed retainers like? Does it push laterally or in directions the teeth are facing? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/07/2019 7:40 am
Trappey
Active Member
Posted by: @printfactory

Have you seen this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPlse4UoMLQ

I am in a similar position and followed his advice and have fixed retainers now. My plan is to try to widen my arches and if it works maybe get rid of them in 2 years. 

 

Yes mike mew says that a retainer covering the 4 lateral teeth is good. I think I should get it reduced to only cover 4 teeth

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/07/2019 8:47 am
HappyPanda27
Active Member
Posted by: @sinned

If you don't care about your teeth shifting back remove them, if you are dedicated to mewing remove them, if you have a plan for some sort of expansion in the future with an appliance remove them, if you do care about your teeth shifting and are also not willing to make it a habit to mew 24/7 then don't remove it. Also your claim that mewing can't expand the palate of an adult is wrong, Progress who was 23 when he started and is now 26 has achieved 9-10 mm of expansion, there's also other people who are adults and even older who managed to get expansion I just forgot their names. You really think you can't expand when a 70 year old managed to expand his palate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5S5AZ50pAE&feature=youtu.be

 

In addition, as someone who's had experience with expanders particularly with an RPE herbst appliance when I was 13, before I knew about mewing, the force I'm able to generate from my tongue in a chin tuck/proper head posture is more than I got from an RPE, the tongue is a very strong muscle. I gauge the force by how much "soreness" I felt, with an RPE I definitely felt it but it wasn't that bad, mewing spreads out the force on the palate yet I still can generate more force from my tongue. The RPE expands the palate 0.5-1 mm a day to give you an idea. The issue isn't actually can the tongue produce enough force, the issue is all mental really. With an appliance you can wear it and forget about it even if there's slight discomfort, with mewing you can easily just stop posturing your tongue.

@sinned so are you suggesting to just risk relying on mewing alone to not cause any relapse to happen? I am strongly leaning on getting a fixed/bonded retainer behind my top and bottom 4 teeth in order to prevent possible relapse/keep the general alignment but still be able to mew. From what I understand, fixed retainers seem to be the only ones that are possible to mew with, but if even a fixed/permanent retainer prevents mewing, I am unsure as to whether I should just take the risk and rely on mewing solely to not cause my teeth to relapse back to their original crowded form before my braces treatment. It is a very difficult call for me to make and I would really like someone to explain to me or give me assurance as to why I should just rely on mewing alone and not wear even a fixed retainer to get the most out of mewing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/10/2019 9:29 pm