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Ronald Ead - AGGA is NOT the Holy Grail  

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TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

https://ronaldead.com/blog/agga-is-not-the-holy-grail-of-adult-orthodontics?fbclid=IwAR3GlBcYa-V--fBIjLrXjsCUj1yGqRdHP63BySyyXihVbBIILPWRd_WWL1k

I recommend you check out the full article on Ronald's website, he goes into more depth and also has an entire series of articles which track his treatment progress.

Key takeaways:

  1. AGGA does not expand the mandible
  2. AGGA does not widen the maxilla (lateral expansion).
  3. AGGA has no effect on the volume of the nasal airway or mid-face
  4. AGGA does not change the angle of the maxilla
  5. AGGA can push teeth through alveolar bone

Essentially all of the beneficial claims of the AGGA are bunk. It just stretches the alveolar bone, damaging it and tipping teeth. 

This thread will eventually be merged into the main FAGGA thread

Quote
Posted : 03/07/2019 9:46 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member
Posted by: TGW

https://ronaldead.com/blog/agga-is-not-the-holy-grail-of-adult-orthodontics?fbclid=IwAR3GlBcYa-V--fBIjLrXjsCUj1yGqRdHP63BySyyXihVbBIILPWRd_WWL1k

I recommend you check out the full article on Ronald's website, he goes into more depth and also has an entire series of articles which track his treatment progress.

Key takeaways:

  1. AGGA does not expand the mandible
  2. AGGA does not widen the maxilla (lateral expansion).
  3. AGGA has no effect on the volume of the nasal airway or mid-face
  4. AGGA does not change the angle of the maxilla
  5. AGGA can push teeth through alveolar bone

Essentially all of the beneficial claims of the AGGA are bunk. It just stretches the alveolar bone, damaging it and tipping teeth. 

This thread will eventually be merged into the main FAGGA thread

Thank you @admin for sharing this great information. What appliances can fix a narrow vaulted palette?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/07/2019 5:40 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

So does his mean FAGGA is bs as well?

If so, what current methods are proven not to be bs?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/07/2019 7:17 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

His issue with teeth not aligning after AGGA - can't that simply be fixed with braces tilting the teeth?

 

My biggest facial flaw is flat/sunk midface - wouldn't this treatment be good for my case to move the maxilla forward?

There were some concerns with AGGA lengthening the face - are those concerns legit?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/07/2019 7:50 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Ok, so we know that AGGA works to bring maxilla forward. Not much, but still a big deal.

We know that MSE expanders can WIDEN the maxilla in adults.

So we already have 2 steps out of 3 covered. Is this complicated and long? Yes, but it works right?

So all we are left with is rotation of the maxilla CCW.

How do we achieve this without surgery?

Well, what about combining MSE+Facemask treatment. Have you thought about that? There are studies proving it works in adults.

Looking forward to your reply.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/07/2019 8:02 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Ok, so we know that AGGA works to bring maxilla forward. Not much, but still a big deal.

We know that MSE expanders can WIDEN the maxilla in adults.

So we already have 2 steps out of 3 covered. Is this complicated and long? Yes, but it works right?

So all we are left with is rotation of the maxilla CCW.

How do we achieve this without surgery?

Well, what about combining MSE+Facemask treatment. Have you thought about that? There are studies proving it works in adults.

Looking forward to your reply.

It doesn't bring the maxilla forward, it only pushes the alveolar ridge (where the teeth sit) outwards. The bone around the front 6 teeth shifts, the rest of the maxilla is not changed

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/07/2019 8:17 am
Schoki liked
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: TGW
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Ok, so we know that AGGA works to bring maxilla forward. Not much, but still a big deal.

We know that MSE expanders can WIDEN the maxilla in adults.

So we already have 2 steps out of 3 covered. Is this complicated and long? Yes, but it works right?

So all we are left with is rotation of the maxilla CCW.

How do we achieve this without surgery?

Well, what about combining MSE+Facemask treatment. Have you thought about that? There are studies proving it works in adults.

Looking forward to your reply.

It doesn't bring the maxilla forward, it only pushes the alveolar ridge (where the teeth sit) outwards. The bone around the front 6 teeth shifts, the rest of the maxilla is not changed

Wow, that is a big disappointment, since my whole maxilla is the biggest problem. Wouldn't face mask pull the whole maxilla forward?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/07/2019 9:25 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

@ronaldead wrote in the comments section of his latest blog post on this topic:

I really do think that the downward sloping maxilla is a major cause of kinked neck. Run a little experiment on yourself: tilt your head so that your maxilla is parallel to the ground. What does that do to your neck? Bends it right? That's because your maxillary angle is too downward, not horizontal enough. AGGA does not fix this.

Again, the correction of neck posture is my ultimate goal, and this whole article is really framed in terms of achieving that.

I have significant forward head posture, and I also suffered from occipital neuralgia style headaches. In addition to improving my airway and sleep quality, reducing my headaches through better head posture is important to me too. However, I don't think my maxilla is sloped downward. It is narrow and retruded, but doesn't seem to pitch down. For example, I have gingival exposure above my posterior teeth, but a low lip line covering much of my upper incisors. I took a small carpenter's level and held it against either side of my upper teeth and aligned the bubble so that it was parallel with the floor. I then assessed my neck posture. My head wasn't tilted back and I could stay parallel to the floor while in a chin tuck. Is there a better way to assess if the maxilla is malrotated? I do have some asymmetry in the roll and yaw of my maxilla, which complicates the situation. However, is it safe to say the pitch is good if you can do a chin tuck with the occlusal plane level to the floor?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/07/2019 3:12 pm
ronaldead
Verified Account

I follow your reasoning and respect your effort. But you can know everything that there is to know about your maxilla by having a CBCT taken and analyzed by a competent, airway-focused orthodontist (such as my own, Dr. Zubad Newaz, or someone like Dr. Audrey Yoon or her surgeon associate Dr. Stanley Liu. Probably many, many others too). Dr. Newaz pointed out the angle of my maxilla the moment he saw my x-ray.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/07/2019 3:29 pm
Apollo liked
spiff
New Member

The benefits to agga can't be understated. Just a few months before this post he made a post about all the health benefits with his posture and airway that the agga gave him. A lot of those "debunked claims" were things I don't think the agga was claiming to do in the first place. Of course the agga doesn't expand the mandible. It expands the maxilla where the appliance sits. Of course it doesn't widen the maxilla. It pushes forward, not sideways. And why would it cause upward rotation? It's pushing forward not upward. I appreciate him talking about some of the limitations of the appliance and some I wasn't aware of but some of this stuff was obvious. 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/07/2019 9:14 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: spiff

The benefits to agga can't be understated. Just a few months before this post he made a post about all the health benefits with his posture and airway that the agga gave him. A lot of those "debunked claims" were things I don't think the agga was claiming to do in the first place. Of course the agga doesn't expand the mandible. It expands the maxilla where the appliance sits. Of course it doesn't widen the maxilla. It pushes forward, not sideways. And why would it cause upward rotation? It's pushing forward not upward. I appreciate him talking about some of the limitations of the appliance and some I wasn't aware of but some of this stuff was obvious. 

While many of us were skeptical, that's exactly how AGGA was/is being billed. For example, read this statement from Dr. David Buck ( https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/fixed-anterior-growth-guidance-appliance-fagga-holy-grail-gonial-angle-change-maxilla-movement-forwards-and-palate-widening-without-surgery/paged/2/#post-2189 ) in the AGGA thread:

Part of my teaching is to undo linear thinking that is so prevalent, and this appliance creates 3 dimensional changes following Enlow's models of facial growth. The AGGA is NOT A TOOTH BORNE APPLIANCE LIKE ALL OTHER EXPANSION DEVICES. It creates pressure on the Nasopalatine neurovascular bundle which creates a response which is to lay down bone to over the nerve to protect it from irritation from the pressure on the pad.The teeth are bonded to a wire which specifically prevents any movement of teeth They are effectively relocated passively as the bone develops. Since bone is appositionally being laid down on the palatal side of the pad, the body reacts by a complete activation of 3 dimensional remodeling as per Enlow, which is to say that bone is laid down in alternating fields of apposition and resoroption which creates a form of cortical drift of the entire Anterior Maxilla and the 6 anterior teeth along with it. The entire alveolar segment is relocated up and forwards, and the teeth achieve a more correct angulation.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/07/2019 9:53 pm
spiff
New Member

Thank you. I still think the admins statement of "all of the beneficial claims are bunk" is incorrect. People have been able to stop using CPAP because of the agga, and Ronald himself says that he wouldn't have been able to go to school and study for long hours without the agga fixing his posture/neck pain/headaches. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 2:34 am
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member
Posted by: Apollo

I have significant forward head posture, and I also suffered from occipital neuralgia style headaches. In addition to improving my airway and sleep quality, reducing my headaches through better head posture is important to me too. 

@apollo Do you have any insight into what the best approach is to reducing forward head posture? Seems like its quite essential to achieving remodelling of the craniofacial complex.

Currently Im taking the chin tuck all day approach. I focus not only on pushing my chin back, but also on lengthening the neck. Im really not sure if its the most effective approach, but I do believe it does more than just chin tucking for a few repetitions each day.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 6:09 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Despite "forward growth" happening, a HUGE issue here is that he has to now dislocate his mandible due to his maxilla being lengthened downward without the pitch of it changing whatsoever.

?format=750w

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 7:13 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: spiff

Thank you. I still think the admins statement of "all of the beneficial claims are bunk" is incorrect. People have been able to stop using CPAP because of the agga, and Ronald himself says that he wouldn't have been able to go to school and study for long hours without the agga fixing his posture/neck pain/headaches. 

The AGGA can be helpful in cases where the TMJ is compressed posterior in the socket, or OSA cases where people do not have enough tongue room. But the the how of the AGGA is bunk - all of the claims made about nasomaxillary complex remodeling, growth as per Enlow, or 3D remodeling have been shown false in all public cases. It's just moving the alveolar bone outward, which can provide some tongue space and let the jaw decompress if it's an issue.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 10:17 am
GoTTi liked
ronaldead
Verified Account
Posted by: spiff

Thank you. I still think the admins statement of "all of the beneficial claims are bunk" is incorrect. People have been able to stop using CPAP because of the agga, and Ronald himself says that he wouldn't have been able to go to school and study for long hours without the agga fixing his posture/neck pain/headaches. 

The problem is, much of the health benefit I got from AGGA (i.e. habituation of elongated neck posture) came from having 1cm of forward expansion. I relinquished half of that expansion (I'm at about 5mm now) to address the dislocation issue resulting from no concurrent expansion of the mandible. With less space it has become harder again to "chin tuck" and maintain an elongated neck. 

 
ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 10:43 am
ronaldead
Verified Account
Posted by: EddieMoney

Despite "forward growth" happening, a HUGE issue here is that he has to now dislocate his mandible due to his maxilla being lengthened downward without the pitch of it changing whatsoever.

?format=750w

Just to be clear this image was taken when I was at peak expansion (1cm). Now that I am in the 5mm range, the dislocation is much milder. However I have also lost oral volume and all of the benefits that come with that.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 10:46 am
posturized
New Member

Hi Ronald,

Firstly I'd just like to say thanks for sharing your journey with AGGA with us, and also for your last post, not having any ego involved, and  for honestly sharing your final thoughts even if they do go against your earlier assumptions. Its appreciated.

Im about to see an Orthodontist later this month for an AGGA consultation - I, as many, have a narrow palate, and recessed maxilla causing postural issues. I'd like to just clarify some information if you don't mind providing;

1) You seem to have ended with 5mm forward expansion. Relative to your original 10mm, this isn't obviously as good, but how about compared to the beginning - was this 5mm expansion worth anything to you? 

2) Knowing what you know now, would you have done AGGA?

3) MY understanding is with maxilla forward movement - even 5mm, your mandible would move 5mm also to match. With the mandible moved 5mm forward this would then be a better position to recruit massater muscle and for hypertrophy. I noticed your massater grew quite alot - do you put this down to the improved forward position of the mandible - or simply because your chewed more? 

I had an personal theory that with maybe better mandible -> maxilla position would mean stronger massaters, and better overall body and head posture - meanings the massaters and mandible could put more force through the whole cranal structure that perhaps wed see more bone (or denser bone) growth - just like normal weight lifting in gym causes dense body bones.

 

Many thanks

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 12:47 pm
WHCCARDIO liked
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: posturized

Hi Ronald,

Firstly I'd just like to say thanks for sharing your journey with AGGA with us, and also for your last post, not having any ego involved, and  for honestly sharing your final thoughts even if they do go against your earlier assumptions. Its appreciated.

Im about to see an Orthodontist later this month for an AGGA consultation - I, as many, have a narrow palate, and recessed maxilla causing postural issues. I'd like to just clarify some information if you don't mind providing;

1) You seem to have ended with 5mm forward expansion. Relative to your original 10mm, this isn't obviously as good, but how about compared to the beginning - was this 5mm expansion worth anything to you? 

2) Knowing what you know now, would you have done AGGA?

3) MY understanding is with maxilla forward movement - even 5mm, your mandible would move 5mm also to match. With the mandible moved 5mm forward this would then be a better position to recruit massater muscle and for hypertrophy. I noticed your massater grew quite alot - do you put this down to the improved forward position of the mandible - or simply because your chewed more? 

I had an personal theory that with maybe better mandible -> maxilla position would mean stronger massaters, and better overall body and head posture - meanings the massaters and mandible could put more force through the whole cranal structure that perhaps wed see more bone (or denser bone) growth - just like normal weight lifting in gym causes dense body bones.

 

Many thanks

The mandible has to dislocate for his teeth to meet. This is the problem. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 1:25 pm
posturized
New Member

@EddieMoney - from my understanding this was only a real issue at 10mm expansion. Also my overall impression from his post was that the mandible dislocating wasn't the only issue.

It'd be great to get Ronalds own response to my questions.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 1:41 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Pame

@apollo Do you have any insight into what the best approach is to reducing forward head posture? Seems like its quite essential to achieving remodelling of the craniofacial complex.

Currently Im taking the chin tuck all day approach. I focus not only on pushing my chin back, but also on lengthening the neck. Im really not sure if its the most effective approach, but I do believe it does more than just chin tucking for a few repetitions each day.

I'd appreciate any advice about this myself. I think to a large extent, its extremely challenging to correct forward head posture without correcting tongue space, since this posture helps hold open the airway. Ronald's case seems to support this. He's been as committed as anyone to practicing good head posture and neck exercises, and saw dramatic improvement in his cervical form after 10mm of forward expansion, but has also reported deterioration in his head posture since allowing 5mm of his AGGA spaces to relapse. SUGR1/SUGR2 said as much when analyzing his case in the AGGA thread:

Posted by: SUGR1

I am sure a lot can be said about his changes. 

But for me the major one and most interesting/significant one which relate to health (as opposed to aesthetics) is the neck angle. 
It is now much straighter which will have a significant knock on effect on his symptoms relating to migraines etc and more importantly general health. 

I would hypothesis this change can be attributed to forward growth of the maxilla, allowing forward traction of the mandible. This opens up airway space and decompresses the TMJ. Allowing downward and backward rotation of the skull.  
WITHOUT forward growth of the maxilla, the simple correction of posture of the head would not be maintainable as in the absence of the mandible traction forward, simple downward and backward rotation will result in airways impingement and natural response of the body to re posture to decrease airways resistance (natural survival response). 

Radiography/x-ray would show much healthier vertebrae angles especially relating to the C1-c3. The Hyoid bone would also have improved its position. 

That being said, I think some people have reported more gradual, modest improvement in forward head posture from strengthening and release exercises. There's an interesting video on the orthotropics youtube page with some recommendations. Progress seems more confident in his approach to this than I am. Shifting the tongue tip forward from the incisive pappilla to behind the incisors (as @ray135 recommends) also seems to allow me to hold a better chin tuck while still being able to breathe. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 5:54 pm
Odys and 135 liked
Flashcam
New Member

Other than surgery or possibly MSE, what options are legitimate to widen the palate or bring the maxilla forward?  Don't most of these devices just tip the teeth? And is tipping the teeth all bad? It seems like it would be, but I really don't know. I'm scheduled for AGGA, but now I'm having second thoughts.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 7:45 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: Pame

@apollo Do you have any insight into what the best approach is to reducing forward head posture? Seems like its quite essential to achieving remodelling of the craniofacial complex.

Currently Im taking the chin tuck all day approach. I focus not only on pushing my chin back, but also on lengthening the neck. Im really not sure if its the most effective approach, but I do believe it does more than just chin tucking for a few repetitions each day.

I'd appreciate any advice about this myself. I think to a large extent, its extremely challenging to correct forward head posture without correcting tongue space, since this posture helps hold open the airway. Ronald's case seems to support this. He's been as committed as anyone to practicing good head posture and neck exercises, and saw dramatic improvement in his cervical form after 10mm of forward expansion, but has also reported deterioration in his head posture since allowing 5mm of his AGGA spaces to relapse. SUGR1/SUGR2 said as much when analyzing his case in the AGGA thread:

Posted by: SUGR1

I am sure a lot can be said about his changes. 

But for me the major one and most interesting/significant one which relate to health (as opposed to aesthetics) is the neck angle. 
It is now much straighter which will have a significant knock on effect on his symptoms relating to migraines etc and more importantly general health. 

I would hypothesis this change can be attributed to forward growth of the maxilla, allowing forward traction of the mandible. This opens up airway space and decompresses the TMJ. Allowing downward and backward rotation of the skull.  
WITHOUT forward growth of the maxilla, the simple correction of posture of the head would not be maintainable as in the absence of the mandible traction forward, simple downward and backward rotation will result in airways impingement and natural response of the body to re posture to decrease airways resistance (natural survival response). 

Radiography/x-ray would show much healthier vertebrae angles especially relating to the C1-c3. The Hyoid bone would also have improved its position. 

That being said, I think some people have reported more gradual, modest improvement in forward head posture from strengthening and release exercises. There's an interesting video on the orthotropics youtube page with some recommendations. Progress seems more confident in his approach to this than I am. Shifting the tongue tip forward from the incisive pappilla to behind the incisors (as @ray135 recommends) also seems to allow me to hold a better chin tuck while still being able to breathe. 

You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies.

With that being said, if one can experience significant change and remodeling from correcting an issue like a pelvic tilt, which holds the same amount of power to shift whole body posture as the maxilla imo, it's common sense to expect large remodeling taking place all around the cranium after experiencing correction of a pelvic tilt.. SUGR has also attested to this phenomenon taking place and I've known for a while that fixing something like a pelvic tilt can mitigate tmj symptoms and reverse it all together. A pelvic tilt, mo, can also be the primary cause of ones TMJ/recession/asymmetries 

note: any sub exercise will most likely work to a decent extent, however, you will not experience much change and retention of change if you refrain from correcting the root of the problem  which would consist of either correcting ones pelvis or ones jaws. Something like bowen thepay is known to address all of this simultaneously because it helps guide the subconscious mind and body to "unwind" all muscles of the body to help your stature shift back into optimal alignment. Somebody from this forum put me on to this therapy and it is a game changer.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/07/2019 11:13 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member
Posted by: harrykanemaxilla
Posted by: TGW

https://ronaldead.com/blog/agga-is-not-the-holy-grail-of-adult-orthodontics?fbclid=IwAR3GlBcYa-V--fBIjLrXjsCUj1yGqRdHP63BySyyXihVbBIILPWRd_WWL1k

I recommend you check out the full article on Ronald's website, he goes into more depth and also has an entire series of articles which track his treatment progress.

Key takeaways:

  1. AGGA does not expand the mandible
  2. AGGA does not widen the maxilla (lateral expansion).
  3. AGGA has no effect on the volume of the nasal airway or mid-face
  4. AGGA does not change the angle of the maxilla
  5. AGGA can push teeth through alveolar bone

Essentially all of the beneficial claims of the AGGA are bunk. It just stretches the alveolar bone, damaging it and tipping teeth. 

This thread will eventually be merged into the main FAGGA thread

Thank you @admin for sharing this great information. What appliances can fix a narrow vaulted palette?

I have an idea on this... NOW... DNA / Saggital all that can help... but the issue is if you leave it in there then there's no pressure from your tongue out... and the pressure must be out in a firework direction... basically everywhere.  Otherwise, it can overall shrink.  Some times this is desired, though.  Super interesting that this happens for both kids and adults.  As my "myofunctional therapist therapist" says... bone is living tissue.  Anyway, I am thinking the way to drop a high palate is to pre-shave down appliances.   You need to manipulate the palate slowly.  But if maxillary deficient, you'll likely need to break it apart.  I don't think it lowers it as much... so I'd try to lower and then break if needed.  In fact... I'd just do what they do in Brazil instead of MSE.  DUDE - Many orthos are doing stuff to break palates on adults...no surgery needed.  Now that I'm disenchanted with the concept of alveolar ridge tipping... I think that splitting it with stable stuff is important.  The last thing you want is an unstable palate that is inadequately supported.  Anyway... I will send an interesting device option for a high palatal vault shortly.  It focuses on the heart of the matter.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 12:38 am
ronaldead
Verified Account
Posted by: posturized

Hi Ronald,

Firstly I'd just like to say thanks for sharing your journey with AGGA with us, and also for your last post, not having any ego involved, and  for honestly sharing your final thoughts even if they do go against your earlier assumptions. Its appreciated.

Im about to see an Orthodontist later this month for an AGGA consultation - I, as many, have a narrow palate, and recessed maxilla causing postural issues. I'd like to just clarify some information if you don't mind providing;

1) You seem to have ended with 5mm forward expansion. Relative to your original 10mm, this isn't obviously as good, but how about compared to the beginning - was this 5mm expansion worth anything to you? 

2) Knowing what you know now, would you have done AGGA?

3) MY understanding is with maxilla forward movement - even 5mm, your mandible would move 5mm also to match. With the mandible moved 5mm forward this would then be a better position to recruit massater muscle and for hypertrophy. I noticed your massater grew quite alot - do you put this down to the improved forward position of the mandible - or simply because your chewed more? 

I had an personal theory that with maybe better mandible -> maxilla position would mean stronger massaters, and better overall body and head posture - meanings the massaters and mandible could put more force through the whole cranal structure that perhaps wed see more bone (or denser bone) growth - just like normal weight lifting in gym causes dense body bones.

 

Many thanks

Hi, thanks for the kind words. Here are my responses to your questions:

1) https://youtu.be/QT_HJigMLzU

2) https://youtu.be/VdOngBfaz40

3) https://youtu.be/-7241dTVEVI

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 12:32 pm
ronaldead
Verified Account
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: Pame

@apollo Do you have any insight into what the best approach is to reducing forward head posture? Seems like its quite essential to achieving remodelling of the craniofacial complex.

Currently Im taking the chin tuck all day approach. I focus not only on pushing my chin back, but also on lengthening the neck. Im really not sure if its the most effective approach, but I do believe it does more than just chin tucking for a few repetitions each day.

I'd appreciate any advice about this myself. I think to a large extent, its extremely challenging to correct forward head posture without correcting tongue space, since this posture helps hold open the airway. Ronald's case seems to support this. He's been as committed as anyone to practicing good head posture and neck exercises, and saw dramatic improvement in his cervical form after 10mm of forward expansion, but has also reported deterioration in his head posture since allowing 5mm of his AGGA spaces to relapse. SUGR1/SUGR2 said as much when analyzing his case in the AGGA thread:

Posted by: SUGR1

I am sure a lot can be said about his changes. 

But for me the major one and most interesting/significant one which relate to health (as opposed to aesthetics) is the neck angle. 
It is now much straighter which will have a significant knock on effect on his symptoms relating to migraines etc and more importantly general health. 

I would hypothesis this change can be attributed to forward growth of the maxilla, allowing forward traction of the mandible. This opens up airway space and decompresses the TMJ. Allowing downward and backward rotation of the skull.  
WITHOUT forward growth of the maxilla, the simple correction of posture of the head would not be maintainable as in the absence of the mandible traction forward, simple downward and backward rotation will result in airways impingement and natural response of the body to re posture to decrease airways resistance (natural survival response). 

Radiography/x-ray would show much healthier vertebrae angles especially relating to the C1-c3. The Hyoid bone would also have improved its position. 

That being said, I think some people have reported more gradual, modest improvement in forward head posture from strengthening and release exercises. There's an interesting video on the orthotropics youtube page with some recommendations. Progress seems more confident in his approach to this than I am. Shifting the tongue tip forward from the incisive pappilla to behind the incisors (as @ray135 recommends) also seems to allow me to hold a better chin tuck while still being able to breathe. 

You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies.

With that being said, if one can experience significant change and remodeling from correcting an issue like a pelvic tilt, which holds the same amount of power to shift whole body posture as the maxilla imo, it's common sense to expect large remodeling taking place all around the cranium after experiencing correction of a pelvic tilt.. SUGR has also attested to this phenomenon taking place and I've known for a while that fixing something like a pelvic tilt can mitigate tmj symptoms and reverse it all together. A pelvic tilt, mo, can also be the primary cause of ones TMJ/recession/asymmetries 

note: any sub exercise will most likely work to a decent extent, however, you will not experience much change and retention of change if you refrain from correcting the root of the problem  which would consist of either correcting ones pelvis or ones jaws. Something like bowen thepay is known to address all of this simultaneously because it helps guide the subconscious mind and body to "unwind" all muscles of the body to help your stature shift back into optimal alignment. Somebody from this forum put me on to this therapy and it is a game changer.

I disagree with the claim "You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies."

Here is my response:

https://youtu.be/yH5ihI9KQug

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 12:33 pm
GoTTi, Apollo and Odys liked
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: ronaldead
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: Pame

@apollo Do you have any insight into what the best approach is to reducing forward head posture? Seems like its quite essential to achieving remodelling of the craniofacial complex.

Currently Im taking the chin tuck all day approach. I focus not only on pushing my chin back, but also on lengthening the neck. Im really not sure if its the most effective approach, but I do believe it does more than just chin tucking for a few repetitions each day.

I'd appreciate any advice about this myself. I think to a large extent, its extremely challenging to correct forward head posture without correcting tongue space, since this posture helps hold open the airway. Ronald's case seems to support this. He's been as committed as anyone to practicing good head posture and neck exercises, and saw dramatic improvement in his cervical form after 10mm of forward expansion, but has also reported deterioration in his head posture since allowing 5mm of his AGGA spaces to relapse. SUGR1/SUGR2 said as much when analyzing his case in the AGGA thread:

Posted by: SUGR1

I am sure a lot can be said about his changes. 

But for me the major one and most interesting/significant one which relate to health (as opposed to aesthetics) is the neck angle. 
It is now much straighter which will have a significant knock on effect on his symptoms relating to migraines etc and more importantly general health. 

I would hypothesis this change can be attributed to forward growth of the maxilla, allowing forward traction of the mandible. This opens up airway space and decompresses the TMJ. Allowing downward and backward rotation of the skull.  
WITHOUT forward growth of the maxilla, the simple correction of posture of the head would not be maintainable as in the absence of the mandible traction forward, simple downward and backward rotation will result in airways impingement and natural response of the body to re posture to decrease airways resistance (natural survival response). 

Radiography/x-ray would show much healthier vertebrae angles especially relating to the C1-c3. The Hyoid bone would also have improved its position. 

That being said, I think some people have reported more gradual, modest improvement in forward head posture from strengthening and release exercises. There's an interesting video on the orthotropics youtube page with some recommendations. Progress seems more confident in his approach to this than I am. Shifting the tongue tip forward from the incisive pappilla to behind the incisors (as @ray135 recommends) also seems to allow me to hold a better chin tuck while still being able to breathe. 

You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies.

With that being said, if one can experience significant change and remodeling from correcting an issue like a pelvic tilt, which holds the same amount of power to shift whole body posture as the maxilla imo, it's common sense to expect large remodeling taking place all around the cranium after experiencing correction of a pelvic tilt.. SUGR has also attested to this phenomenon taking place and I've known for a while that fixing something like a pelvic tilt can mitigate tmj symptoms and reverse it all together. A pelvic tilt, mo, can also be the primary cause of ones TMJ/recession/asymmetries 

note: any sub exercise will most likely work to a decent extent, however, you will not experience much change and retention of change if you refrain from correcting the root of the problem  which would consist of either correcting ones pelvis or ones jaws. Something like bowen thepay is known to address all of this simultaneously because it helps guide the subconscious mind and body to "unwind" all muscles of the body to help your stature shift back into optimal alignment. Somebody from this forum put me on to this therapy and it is a game changer.

I disagree with the claim "You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies."

Here is my response:

https://youtu.be/yH5ihI9KQug

Hey Ronald, I really appreciate your response. Unfortunately, for the most part, I will have to RESPECTFULLY disagree with you. here's why.

To start, you are going by your own experience and assuming you've done all of the right things to acquire better posture. But I don't believe you have done the correct things at all. Based on my studies, and what I have viewed from hundreds of cases throughout the years of people who reversed their Hard Flaccid syndrome (the whole body becomes involved in these cases causing eventual forward head posture if untreated soon enough etc.,) anterior pelvic tilts, and posterior pelvic tilts, simply targeting the neck neck will not fix your issue at all because you have no support from the rest of the body... in fact, your body is most likely rooting against you in this case, at least in the short term. As you have clearly stated, one CAN experience changes, but they will more than likely not be sustainable or become habitual. That's all because your body is still compensating for an imbalance, and many times the culprit is a pelvic tilt like what is explained in the link below

http://www.oregonexercisetherapy.com/blog/forward-head-posture

these guys at this clinic deal and correct forward head posture all of the time and the main culprit, according to them, is an anterior or posterior pelvic tilt. This is very common knowledge to many people nowadays after the connection between the pelvis and overall stature has been made and established. Something like bowen therapy, which is known to work with the subconscious mind to "unwind" any muscle they attempt to manipulate, may be the best therapy to fully optimize ones overall posture, including neck posture.  Do check out some of this information and perhaps consider undergoing a more effective therapy than what you've indulged in before, especially bowen therapy, and then re-asses this topic once more afterward because I guarantee you that you will prove yourself wrong. The very fact that you acknowledge that forward head posture can be effectively worked on without correcting what you think may be the root cause (retruded jaws) should also tell you that over time, after manipulating your head posture for years or even months through body work, it will become sustainable because muscles move bone and your body's compensatory mechanisms will literally induce repatterning of the musculature leading to bone movement and remodeling provided you give this process time ALL while keeping up the body work ofc. This is simply Wolfes law and it also applies to this concept easily, forward neck posture isn't that special lol. What makes you think that, if I can effectively influence my neck to straighten and continue to work to manipulate it to keep it it's newer and more optimal position, that the jaws won't follow through by remodeling and growing where it needs to grow as a result of compensation? Jaws are simply bones that can be moved. Facial bones have been proven to move due to stimuli. One would have to assume that body posture cannot be influence through muscle work to not agree that ones jaw can also move back into optimal positioning and this is not the case at all. The same way sitting improperly for a prolonged amount of time can cause postural imbalances after months of doing this, making these imbalances more "1st nature" and habitual over time is the same exact way one can influence their forward head posture to maintain correction over time. I am going out on a limb here to say that the vast majority of people on here can correct their forward head posture through addressing their pelvic tilts. I guarantee that the vast majority of people on this forum have a misaligned pelvis that needs correction, and unless you address this, your body will continue to compensate for this imbalance and none of the facial skeletal changes you make with FA's will ever be sustained unless you mew very effectively.

here's another link on bowen therapy that I found quickly. It's not the best link, but it explain how this therapy is unique and much more effective than many other therapies out there. I encourage you to seek more

http://pennymichaels.com/2017/09/forward-head-posture-the-domino-effect/

lastly, may I ask what methods you took on in attempts to correct your forward neck posture? You did mention meditation but I'm assuming that wasn't the only thing you have done

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 3:09 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: ronaldead
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: Pame

@apollo Do you have any insight into what the best approach is to reducing forward head posture? Seems like its quite essential to achieving remodelling of the craniofacial complex.

Currently Im taking the chin tuck all day approach. I focus not only on pushing my chin back, but also on lengthening the neck. Im really not sure if its the most effective approach, but I do believe it does more than just chin tucking for a few repetitions each day.

I'd appreciate any advice about this myself. I think to a large extent, its extremely challenging to correct forward head posture without correcting tongue space, since this posture helps hold open the airway. Ronald's case seems to support this. He's been as committed as anyone to practicing good head posture and neck exercises, and saw dramatic improvement in his cervical form after 10mm of forward expansion, but has also reported deterioration in his head posture since allowing 5mm of his AGGA spaces to relapse. SUGR1/SUGR2 said as much when analyzing his case in the AGGA thread:

Posted by: SUGR1

I am sure a lot can be said about his changes. 

But for me the major one and most interesting/significant one which relate to health (as opposed to aesthetics) is the neck angle. 
It is now much straighter which will have a significant knock on effect on his symptoms relating to migraines etc and more importantly general health. 

I would hypothesis this change can be attributed to forward growth of the maxilla, allowing forward traction of the mandible. This opens up airway space and decompresses the TMJ. Allowing downward and backward rotation of the skull.  
WITHOUT forward growth of the maxilla, the simple correction of posture of the head would not be maintainable as in the absence of the mandible traction forward, simple downward and backward rotation will result in airways impingement and natural response of the body to re posture to decrease airways resistance (natural survival response). 

Radiography/x-ray would show much healthier vertebrae angles especially relating to the C1-c3. The Hyoid bone would also have improved its position. 

That being said, I think some people have reported more gradual, modest improvement in forward head posture from strengthening and release exercises. There's an interesting video on the orthotropics youtube page with some recommendations. Progress seems more confident in his approach to this than I am. Shifting the tongue tip forward from the incisive pappilla to behind the incisors (as @ray135 recommends) also seems to allow me to hold a better chin tuck while still being able to breathe. 

You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies.

With that being said, if one can experience significant change and remodeling from correcting an issue like a pelvic tilt, which holds the same amount of power to shift whole body posture as the maxilla imo, it's common sense to expect large remodeling taking place all around the cranium after experiencing correction of a pelvic tilt.. SUGR has also attested to this phenomenon taking place and I've known for a while that fixing something like a pelvic tilt can mitigate tmj symptoms and reverse it all together. A pelvic tilt, mo, can also be the primary cause of ones TMJ/recession/asymmetries 

note: any sub exercise will most likely work to a decent extent, however, you will not experience much change and retention of change if you refrain from correcting the root of the problem  which would consist of either correcting ones pelvis or ones jaws. Something like bowen thepay is known to address all of this simultaneously because it helps guide the subconscious mind and body to "unwind" all muscles of the body to help your stature shift back into optimal alignment. Somebody from this forum put me on to this therapy and it is a game changer.

I disagree with the claim "You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies."

Here is my response:

https://youtu.be/yH5ihI9KQug

I completely agree. 

If you lack space on the upper arch to fit your tongue, your neck will always go back to a more forward position.

Palatoglossus activation and a stable effortless bite at the molars is the most important for neck elongation. 

It's not just the space, it's airway efficiency. Even if you practice neck poature religiously your body will go back to a more airway efficient position in a heartbeat.

That's why body posture and mewing are so hard to tackle. Stress, migraines etc due to under oxygenation is a real thing and your brain doesn't want that so it either slouches your body if your a nose breather or if you can't it drops your mandible for oxygen and less stress. 

This pretty much made me come to the conclusion that the best and most effective way to mew is through posture. Hard mewing and execively pushing your tongue to the palate, from my experience, will bring assymetries forward and will stress the hell out of you without fixing posture. 

Cervical posture will also bring your mandible forwards and up in case it is retracted. That alone will fix TMJ issues. 

The question here is what causes what. In my opinion it starts on the cranium and with time sets up a cascade of problems like pelvic and neck tilts, posture, scapula winging, apnea etc etc.. Some people say it starts with a pelvic tilt. One things for sure, they go hand in hand. 

I feel like Correct cervical posture while focusing on mewing just puts a more vectorially correct and heavier force on to the palate areas that need more work, naturally, and you hit 2 birds with one stone.

Focusing on tongue only, even tho still better than not mewing, would be, at least from what I've experienced, nothing but a heavier version of patterns we already practiced that lead us to a recessed face. 

Ive always had forward head posture and bad body posture prior to getting into this whole mewing journey. Fast-forward 7 months and it's now much better than it ever was BUT now I'm at a dead-end with my progress on body posture due to small palate. I feel like it's a fight I won't win without an appliance. 

I focus heavy on body posture  and correct mewing but just like you said, it goes back to where it was in a heartbeat.

In order to maintain good body posture I either stress the hell out of myself mewing or I open my mouth to breathe without realizing it.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 3:43 pm
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

@gotti Any tips on how one could approach correcting a pelvic tilt? Also, what do you think about the chin tuck all day approach to correcting FHP which Helmut and Achilles among others have taken? This is of course in addition to working on general body posture.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 3:50 pm
posturized
New Member

@ronald - many thanks for your video responses. I think I will pursue both 5mm AGGA expansion, along with proper chewing as per fletcherism and see where I end up. I generally believe in a comprehensive programme that attacks all cranial (and body) deficiencies.

One thing I would like to offer you; my journey into cranial development and position, started from a bad back, and bad body posture, resulting in the realisation that it's all interlinked from cranium to feet. 

I have spent many thousands of dollars travelling the world to fix my body posture, not realising I had anything wrong with my cranium. For sure the best company/system for posture which lead me to my cranium issues, is a system called Postural Restoration Institute (PRI). They are aware of tongue/teeth/cranium positioning amongst other whole body patterns and positioning.

They have two good practitioners in New York area where I believe you are based: both Nael Hallinan and Michal Niedzielski -I have seen both (I am based in the UK).

Both Michal and Nael mew religiously and will fully understand and support your cranial efforts - but they are both experts on overall body posture, to the depth where they are studying eyesight & effect on effect posture. 

Good luck with everything

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 3:56 pm
Odys and darkindigo liked
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Roflcopters
Posted by: ronaldead
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: Pame

@apollo Do you have any insight into what the best approach is to reducing forward head posture? Seems like its quite essential to achieving remodelling of the craniofacial complex.

Currently Im taking the chin tuck all day approach. I focus not only on pushing my chin back, but also on lengthening the neck. Im really not sure if its the most effective approach, but I do believe it does more than just chin tucking for a few repetitions each day.

I'd appreciate any advice about this myself. I think to a large extent, its extremely challenging to correct forward head posture without correcting tongue space, since this posture helps hold open the airway. Ronald's case seems to support this. He's been as committed as anyone to practicing good head posture and neck exercises, and saw dramatic improvement in his cervical form after 10mm of forward expansion, but has also reported deterioration in his head posture since allowing 5mm of his AGGA spaces to relapse. SUGR1/SUGR2 said as much when analyzing his case in the AGGA thread:

Posted by: SUGR1

I am sure a lot can be said about his changes. 

But for me the major one and most interesting/significant one which relate to health (as opposed to aesthetics) is the neck angle. 
It is now much straighter which will have a significant knock on effect on his symptoms relating to migraines etc and more importantly general health. 

I would hypothesis this change can be attributed to forward growth of the maxilla, allowing forward traction of the mandible. This opens up airway space and decompresses the TMJ. Allowing downward and backward rotation of the skull.  
WITHOUT forward growth of the maxilla, the simple correction of posture of the head would not be maintainable as in the absence of the mandible traction forward, simple downward and backward rotation will result in airways impingement and natural response of the body to re posture to decrease airways resistance (natural survival response). 

Radiography/x-ray would show much healthier vertebrae angles especially relating to the C1-c3. The Hyoid bone would also have improved its position. 

That being said, I think some people have reported more gradual, modest improvement in forward head posture from strengthening and release exercises. There's an interesting video on the orthotropics youtube page with some recommendations. Progress seems more confident in his approach to this than I am. Shifting the tongue tip forward from the incisive pappilla to behind the incisors (as @ray135 recommends) also seems to allow me to hold a better chin tuck while still being able to breathe. 

You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies.

With that being said, if one can experience significant change and remodeling from correcting an issue like a pelvic tilt, which holds the same amount of power to shift whole body posture as the maxilla imo, it's common sense to expect large remodeling taking place all around the cranium after experiencing correction of a pelvic tilt.. SUGR has also attested to this phenomenon taking place and I've known for a while that fixing something like a pelvic tilt can mitigate tmj symptoms and reverse it all together. A pelvic tilt, mo, can also be the primary cause of ones TMJ/recession/asymmetries 

note: any sub exercise will most likely work to a decent extent, however, you will not experience much change and retention of change if you refrain from correcting the root of the problem  which would consist of either correcting ones pelvis or ones jaws. Something like bowen thepay is known to address all of this simultaneously because it helps guide the subconscious mind and body to "unwind" all muscles of the body to help your stature shift back into optimal alignment. Somebody from this forum put me on to this therapy and it is a game changer.

I disagree with the claim "You absolutely do not need any jaw advancement to correct forward head posture. That can be corrected with exercise as well as a plethora of other therapies."

Here is my response:

https://youtu.be/yH5ihI9KQug

I completely agree. 

If you lack space on the upper arch to fit your tongue, your neck will always go back to a more forward position.

Palatoglossus activation and a stable effortless bite at the molars is the most important for neck elongation. 

It's not just the space, it's airway efficiency. Even if you practice neck poature religiously your body will go back to a more airway efficient position in a heartbeat.

That's why body posture and mewing are so hard to tackle. Stress, migraines etc due to under oxygenation is a real thing and your brain doesn't want that so it either slouches your body if your a nose breather or if you can't it drops your mandible for oxygen and less stress. 

This pretty much made me come to the conclusion that the best and most effective way to mew is through posture. Hard mewing and execively pushing your tongue to the palate, from my experience, will bring assymetries forward and will stress the hell out of you without fixing posture. 

Cervical posture will also bring your mandible forwards and up in case it is retracted. That alone will fix TMJ issues. 

The question here is what causes what. In my opinion it starts on the cranium and with time sets up a cascade of problems like pelvic and neck tilts, posture, scapula winging, apnea etc etc.. Some people say it starts with a pelvic tilt. One things for sure, they go hand in hand. 

I did not have significant forward head posture, if at all, like I currently do now (treating it) prior to me being 22ish more or less and my posture has gotten significantly worse especially from age 23 to now with forward head posture mirrored all of the shifts in my pelvic region.. So I disagree that it starts in the cranium based on my experience. I did always have slightly rounded shoulders and maybe a BIT of forward head posture, but not even remotely close to what I have today.

have you fully addressed your pelvic tilt yet?

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 4:56 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Pame

@gotti Any tips on how one could approach correcting a pelvic tilt? Also, what do you think about the chin tuck all day approach to correcting FHP which Helmut and Achilles among others have taken? This is of course in addition to working on general body posture.

I would highly suggest seeking a certified bowen therapist in order to analyze your posture and the significance of your tilt, as well as for treatment (it's dirt cheap and you won't need more than 15 sessions MAX to correct your issues,if that.) You can also opt for maintenance treatments a few times a year which will run you $50-$150 dollars per session depending on whether it's a house call or not. 

I think performing a chin tuck all day can induce change, but maybe the change you experience may not be optimal since you are not addressing the root cause here and are possibly engaging the wrong muscles potentially making matters worse. But maybe it may be exactly what you need for your body to shift in a positive fashion. it's hard to say when this really works on a case by case basis. I also have no visual of you.

One thing I know for sure though, is that after discovering bowen therapy thanks to @Anomaly, I think this is the very best approach for fixing postural issues since the therapy works on a subconscious level to align every single muscle and bone to it's optimal positioning.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 5:10 pm
ronaldead
Verified Account

Thank you for inviting me to clarify my position. There are some details I left out of my response to you about my history of rebuilding my full body posture. Those details are available in an older blog post and sometimes I make the mistake of assuming that online conversation partners have read my entire blog.

It is important for me now to point out that the very road that let me to attempting adult facial reconstruction in the first place (in 2015, when I started hardcore mewing for the first time) was 5 years of extremely zealous full body posture training according to the Gokhale method. Through 5 years of dedicated effort (much of it 12 hours a day of lazer-sharp-focused-attention on my posture while living at a Thai Forest Buddhist Monastery in San Diego County) I overhauled my entire body posture, from the arches of my feet, to my pelvis, to the elongation of my spine, to the placement of my shoulders, and everything in between.

What I realized during this process is that no matter how hard I tried, I could not get my damn neck to elongate (according to Gokhale's ideas of proper neck posture). It was this roadblock which I lived with for 2-3 years that drove the investigation that eventually concluded in realizing that my facial structure was [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up.

I realized that there was an undeniable interconnection between the spreading of the tongue (every last bit of it) onto the roof of the mouth and the extension of my neck. The simultaneous execution of these motions is an exercise I have dubbed the "occipital flex." The occipital flex is the key to solid-as-hell neck posture. It calls for apply mindfulness to the inner muscles of the neck in the occipital region and consciously flexing them, while simultaneously spreading the tongue on the roof of the mouth. Basically chin-tuck mewing simultaneously. What you will realize if attempting this is that if the tongue is not spread widely and firmly onto the roof my mouth, the neck inevitably kinks the second mindfulness is taken off of it. The inner neck flexing and the tongue spread complement, facilitate and reinforce each other. In fact, I would say they depend on each other. You really cannot have one without the other. But holding the "occipital flex" is an unbelievable sturdy position to be in and guarantees no occipital neuralgia (headache) symptoms. 

In addition, during my full body posture training I realized it was absolutely impossible for me to eat or talk without breaking my occipital flex.

All this led me to the conclusion that inability to spread the tongue was the direct cause of my inability to habituate the occipital flex. That's when I started investing lots of time and money into making my mouth bigger. And here we are today.

To sum up: IMO it is a brute physiological fact that truly durable, elongated neck posture depends on a complete tongue spread. A complete tongue spread is nigh impossible without sufficient oral real estate (as anyone who has every seriously attempted Mewing knows).

Now, if you want to argue the legitimacy of Esther Gokhale's view of proper posture, that is another thing entirely. But I assure you that I have done all of the full body posture work that there is to be done, and that my posture from the neck down is quite solid. In fact for a while I considered becoming a certified Gokhale posture teacher. It is this posture that allowed me to meditate so much without a cushion (flat on the floor) and without injuring my knees (this is actually a serious issue for many American monks). See this video where I sit in full lotus without cushion effortlessly for over 20 minutes.

By the way I am not being defensive I just feel very strongly that people need to be aware about the potential link between their facial structure and chronic headaches caused by impossible-to-fix neck posture. I mean, this is the main thesis of my entire online presence. 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 5:42 pm
WHCCARDIO, Odys and GoTTi liked
drunkwithcoffee
Estimable Member

@ronaldead wow, thank you so much for going into detail on that.   I think this is a critical piece of info for not only beginning mewers but any mewers struggling to understand the importance of the chin tuck.  Even for me, I've believed the chin tuck to be important since I started mewing about a year ago, but I wasn't sure exactly why.  All I knew was that everyone who was good looking seemed to have perfect head posture, and that training the chin tuck could help you fix it.

As my mind-body connection strengthens, I've slowly begun to realize how connected the tongue and neck are, and your explanation just opened up another level of understanding for me.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 6:39 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: ronaldead

Thank you for inviting me to clarify my position. There are some details I left out of my response to you about my history of rebuilding my full body posture. Those details are available in an older blog post and sometimes I make the mistake of assuming that online conversation partners have read my entire blog.

It is important for me now to point out that the very road that let me to attempting adult facial reconstruction in the first place (in 2015, when I started hardcore mewing for the first time) was 5 years of extremely zealous full body posture training according to the Gokhale method. Through 5 years of dedicated effort (much of it 12 hours a day of lazer-sharp-focused-attention on my posture while living at a Thai Forest Buddhist Monastery in San Diego County) I overhauled my entire body posture, from the arches of my feet, to my pelvis, to the elongation of my spine, to the placement of my shoulders, and everything in between.

What I realized during this process is that no matter how hard I tried, I could not get my damn neck to elongate (according to Gokhale's ideas of proper neck posture). It was this roadblock which I lived with for 2-3 years that drove the investigation that eventually concluded in realizing that my facial structure was [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up.

I realized that there was an undeniable interconnection between the spreading of the tongue (every last bit of it) onto the roof of the mouth and the extension of my neck. The simultaneous execution of these motions is an exercise I have dubbed the "occipital flex." The occipital flex is the key to solid-as-hell neck posture. It calls for apply mindfulness to the inner muscles of the neck in the occipital region and consciously flexing them, while simultaneously spreading the tongue on the roof of the mouth. Basically chin-tuck mewing simultaneously. What you will realize if attempting this is that if the tongue is not spread widely and firmly onto the roof my mouth, the neck inevitably kinks the second mindfulness is taken off of it. The inner neck flexing and the tongue spread complement, facilitate and reinforce each other. In fact, I would say they depend on each other. You really cannot have one without the other. But holding the "occipital flex" is an unbelievable sturdy position to be in and guarantees no occipital neuralgia (headache) symptoms. 

In addition, during my full body posture training I realized it was absolutely impossible for me to eat or talk without breaking my occipital flex.

All this led me to the conclusion that inability to spread the tongue was the direct cause of my inability to habituate the occipital flex. That's when I started investing lots of time and money into making my mouth bigger. And here we are today.

To sum up: IMO it is a brute physiological fact that truly durable, elongated neck posture depends on a complete tongue spread. A complete tongue spread is nigh impossible without sufficient oral real estate (as anyone who has every seriously attempted Mewing knows).

Now, if you want to argue the legitimacy of Esther Gokhale's view of proper posture, that is another thing entirely. But I assure you that I have done all of the full body posture work that there is to be done, and that my posture from the neck down is quite solid. In fact for a while I considered becoming a certified Gokhale posture teacher. It is this posture that allowed me to meditate so much without a cushion (flat on the floor) and without injuring my knees (this is actually a serious issue for many American monks). See this video where I sit in full lotus without cushion effortlessly for over 20 minutes.

By the way I am not being defensive I just feel very strongly that people need to be aware about the potential link between their facial structure and chronic headaches caused by impossible-to-fix neck posture. I mean, this is the main thesis of my entire online presence. 

 

 

I completely understand and agree with most of your points. They all make sense and I'm sure there are strong connections. However, it's hard to fully agree with them when my own case, I feel, contradicts it, and the same thing can be said about the hundreds of cases you can find online of people correcting their neck posture with various different postural exercises. How would you explain all of this?

I also cannot stress how different Bowen Therapy is from every single therapy I have seen. I wouldn't say I've tried everything for posture until I've something like Bowen. Yea I know I sound like a broken record, but it's for a good cause

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2019 6:51 pm
ronaldead
Verified Account

I would say that our point of disagreement is the criteria each of us has for what counts as "correct neck posture."

My definition is "neck posture so sturdy and rock solid that one is able to effortlessly prevent arising of any occipital neuralgia symptoms as he goes about his day. And while he sleeps at night."

In other words, assume the most sensitive neck imaginable–one that could explode into cervicogenic headache episode at the slightest mechanical trigger (imperfect posture). This is my curse. For me, correct neck posture is posture that cures this condition. To me such pain prevention is the ultimate test any postural ideal could be put to. If it stands up to it, it is correct posture.

Such is the posture I have laid out in the posts above.

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Posted : 08/07/2019 7:01 pm
GoTTi liked
ronaldead
Verified Account
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@ronaldead wow, thank you so much for going into detail on that.   I think this is a critical piece of info for not only beginning mewers but any mewers struggling to understand the importance of the chin tuck.  Even for me, I've believed the chin tuck to be important since I started mewing about a year ago, but I wasn't sure exactly why.  All I knew was that everyone who was good looking seemed to have perfect head posture, and that training the chin tuck could help you fix it.

As my mind-body connection strengthens, I've slowly begun to realize how connected the tongue and neck are, and your explanation just opened up another level of understanding for me.  

I admire your introspection and encourage you to continue to explore your body and mind in this way. Many more treasures to come.

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Posted : 08/07/2019 7:04 pm
GoTTi liked
GoTTi
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Posted by: ronaldead

I would say that our point of disagreement is the criteria each of us has for what counts as "correct neck posture."

My definition is "neck posture so sturdy and rock solid that one is able to effortlessly prevent arising of any occipital neuralgia symptoms as he goes about his day. And while he sleeps at night."

In other words, assume the most sensitive neck imaginable–one that could explode into cervicogenic headache episode at the slightest mechanical trigger (imperfect posture). This is my curse. For me, correct neck posture is posture that cures this condition. To me such pain prevention is the ultimate test any postural ideal could be put to. If it stands up to it, it is correct posture.

Such is the posture I have laid out in the posts above.

Understood, Ronald..

Please allow me to switch gears here... I would just like to express my gratitude by saying thank you for responding to my questions and rebuttals. While we still don't fully see eye to eye (yet), I definitely understand where you're coming from and I agree with the majority of what you stand for. As a long time lurker of your blog, I am very delighted that I got to have this entire conversation with you and I am looking towards having many more, if I can help it.

I would like to ask, though... would you mind considering seeing a bowen therapist to perhaps experiment with this modality...?  I seriously think you should give this a chance, you never know, maybe it can be exactly what you needed. You have a lot to gain and not much to lose. In fact, I believe in this therapy so much, and would like to see if we can make a breakthrough so bad on this forum, that I will be more than willing to at least pay for your first session. Let me know what your thoughts are on this offer

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Posted : 08/07/2019 8:36 pm
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

@ronaldead How come some people experience terrible headaches from poor head and neck posture, while others don't? I've had pretty bad FHP mostly all my life, but still very rarely have headaches.

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Posted : 09/07/2019 4:15 am
ronaldead
Verified Account

I don't know. Probably a lot of it has to do with whatever genes are associated with "migraines." There is huge overlap between the condition called chronic migraine and that called occipital neuralgia, which is what we are talking about here.

It should be noted that there are tens of millions of Americans suffering from "migraines." No doubt that a good chunk of them are dealing with at least some amount of occipital neuralgia. Therefore although not everyone experiences headache pain as a result of imperfect neck posture, my gut is that many, many do.

You should see some of the occipital neuralgia and headache groups on Facebook. They are miserable.

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Posted : 09/07/2019 6:48 am
ronaldead
Verified Account

Gotti- This is an unbelievably kind offer and I greatly admire and wish to support your efforts to advance our collective understanding of these issues. I will definitely look into Bowen therapy, although you will have to give me some time as I am currently drowning in an accelerated summer physics 2 course. But, I assure you, I would be happy to take you up on your offer of a free therapy session and will provide feedback on the experience.

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Posted : 09/07/2019 6:51 am
WrongNotes
Active Member
Posted by: posturized

@ronald - many thanks for your video responses. I think I will pursue both 5mm AGGA expansion, along with proper chewing as per fletcherism and see where I end up. I generally believe in a comprehensive programme that attacks all cranial (and body) deficiencies.

One thing I would like to offer you; my journey into cranial development and position, started from a bad back, and bad body posture, resulting in the realisation that it's all interlinked from cranium to feet. 

I have spent many thousands of dollars travelling the world to fix my body posture, not realising I had anything wrong with my cranium. For sure the best company/system for posture which lead me to my cranium issues, is a system called Postural Restoration Institute (PRI). They are aware of tongue/teeth/cranium positioning amongst other whole body patterns and positioning.

They have two good practitioners in New York area where I believe you are based: both Nael Hallinan and Michal Niedzielski -I have seen both (I am based in the UK).

Both Michal and Nael mew religiously and will fully understand and support your cranial efforts - but they are both experts on overall body posture, to the depth where they are studying eyesight & effect on effect posture. 

Good luck with everything

@posturized @ronaldead

If I may, I'd like expand on this.

I would seriously recommended everyone to look in to the works of the Postural Restoration Institute.  Discovering PRI several months back has really made me question everything I thought I understood about the body, posture and movement.

As @posturized alludes to, PRI focuses on the body as a sensory organism and how pathology can alter everything from your posture to your physiological function.

Your teeth, eyes, and feet are all sensory organisms that play a critical role in your ability to sense space.  If one of these senses becomes pathological for whatever reason, the body will change and adapt to maintain your basic survival mechanisms.

So while oral structure and function is extremely influential in a healthy body, it is just one part of the puzzle.  Your eyesight (peripheral vision), your ability to breathe correctly (restoring correct Zone of Apposition, and moving out of spinal extension) and even how your feet hit the ground (inappropriate footwear is a big issue for most people) all play influential roles in what happens to your body.

If one of several of these things aren't working as they're supposed, to then the neck is normally one of the first places to suffer.  Given it is holding your head and brain, the neck usually will stiffen and seize up in order to find stability.

So attaining correct posture is a more multi-faceted approach than most people realise.  While it might work for some people, treatment like 'stand up tall' and 'chin tuck' are often elementary solutions to more complex cases.  If you hold tension in your body and are constantly in a state of extension (hyper alert, body unable to relax) then forcing yourself in to uncomfortable postures and walking around in a chin tuck may well make things worse.

As far as the idea of surgery goes, I recall reading a quote from the founder of PRI Ron Hruska, and he said:  "I've learned one thing in life.  Jaw surgery does not work."

Make of that what you will, but I'd exhaust the downstream causes and effects of why your neck has caused you issues before going with surgical intervention.

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Posted : 09/07/2019 10:29 am
Ayla31 and GoTTi liked
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: ronaldead

Gotti- This is an unbelievably kind offer and I greatly admire and wish to support your efforts to advance our collective understanding of these issues. I will definitely look into Bowen therapy, although you will have to give me some time as I am currently drowning in an accelerated summer physics 2 course. But, I assure you, I would be happy to take you up on your offer of a free therapy session and will provide feedback on the experience.

Sounds like a plan, bud. & my pleasure! That is the least I could do for you keeping us up to date on all of you for keeping us up-to-date on all of your experiments. Also, take your time with whatever you've got going on.. I completely understand. My offer will not expire, haha 😀

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Posted : 10/07/2019 3:39 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: WrongNotes
Posted by: posturized

@ronald - many thanks for your video responses. I think I will pursue both 5mm AGGA expansion, along with proper chewing as per fletcherism and see where I end up. I generally believe in a comprehensive programme that attacks all cranial (and body) deficiencies.

One thing I would like to offer you; my journey into cranial development and position, started from a bad back, and bad body posture, resulting in the realisation that it's all interlinked from cranium to feet. 

I have spent many thousands of dollars travelling the world to fix my body posture, not realising I had anything wrong with my cranium. For sure the best company/system for posture which lead me to my cranium issues, is a system called Postural Restoration Institute (PRI). They are aware of tongue/teeth/cranium positioning amongst other whole body patterns and positioning.

They have two good practitioners in New York area where I believe you are based: both Nael Hallinan and Michal Niedzielski -I have seen both (I am based in the UK).

Both Michal and Nael mew religiously and will fully understand and support your cranial efforts - but they are both experts on overall body posture, to the depth where they are studying eyesight & effect on effect posture. 

Good luck with everything

@posturized @ronaldead

If I may, I'd like expand on this.

I would seriously recommended everyone to look in to the works of the Postural Restoration Institute.  Discovering PRI several months back has really made me question everything I thought I understood about the body, posture and movement.

As @posturized alludes to, PRI focuses on the body as a sensory organism and how pathology can alter everything from your posture to your physiological function.

Your teeth, eyes, and feet are all sensory organisms that play a critical role in your ability to sense space.  If one of these senses becomes pathological for whatever reason, the body will change and adapt to maintain your basic survival mechanisms.

So while oral structure and function is extremely influential in a healthy body, it is just one part of the puzzle.  Your eyesight (peripheral vision), your ability to breathe correctly (restoring correct Zone of Apposition, and moving out of spinal extension) and even how your feet hit the ground (inappropriate footwear is a big issue for most people) all play influential roles in what happens to your body.

If one of several of these things aren't working as they're supposed, to then the neck is normally one of the first places to suffer.  Given it is holding your head and brain, the neck usually will stiffen and seize up in order to find stability.

So attaining correct posture is a more multi-faceted approach than most people realise.  While it might work for some people, treatment like 'stand up tall' and 'chin tuck' are often elementary solutions to more complex cases.  If you hold tension in your body and are constantly in a state of extension (hyper alert, body unable to relax) then forcing yourself in to uncomfortable postures and walking around in a chin tuck may well make things worse.

As far as the idea of surgery goes, I recall reading a quote from the founder of PRI Ron Hruska, and he said:  "I've learned one thing in life.  Jaw surgery does not work."

Make of that what you will, but I'd exhaust the downstream causes and effects of why your neck has caused you issues before going with surgical intervention.

I'm not sure why you have not tagged ME! We have very similar beliefs and premises here! Haha. But honestly, great post, man! Can you future elaborate, please? I'd love to hear more.

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Posted : 10/07/2019 3:43 pm
WrongNotes
Active Member

@GoTTi

I tagged @posturized because he mentioned a lot of stuff I've been meaning to talk about on here (and I'm actually consulting with the same PRI guy he is) and Ronald because he seems to have had several orthodontic interventions without achieving the success he's been seeking.

But sure, PRI has been pretty revelatory for me, and it's something everyone would benefit from delving into.  I actually went to see my local PRI practitioner a couple of months back, and Mike Mew treats his kids.  He told me that Mike Mew doesn't really understand the full picture in terms of posture and body movement.  Especially for more pathological cases (like me), the one-size-fits-all type instructions that have spread across the web could potentially cause further problems.

I'm certainly no expert on all this stuff, but it's really about the body working as a closed chain system with the correct movement patterns, and sensing space properly.

In my own case, there is some clear pathology which I'm almost certainly extends from my occlusion and vision.  Your body can get 'stuck' in faulty patterns as means of compensation for this pathology, and for most people (myself included) it normally results in being too right-sided.  

Something as basic as sensing your left heel properly on the floor can immediately (if only momentarily) give you significant increase in range of movement during a shoulder abduction test.  I did this test, and my arm just fell to the floor.  Honestly, it's bonkers.  You can spend all day stretching and massaging, but if your body isn't 'neutral', then it won't relax.  If it can't relax, then improvements are basically futile.

This is actually a really crucial thing I've come to appreciate - the importance between states of relaxation and tension.  People with forward head posture and cranial facial disorder are almost all living in a state of tension, and chronic tension makes you sick.

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Posted : 11/07/2019 11:56 am
Ayla31 liked
Ayla31
Trusted Member

@Wrongnotes, Are you familiar with the topic of body maps, Homunculus/Body Image-Map, the embodiment/awareness of these, and the process of "body mapping" that the body has?   And thank you very much for bringing up this important topic.

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Posted : 11/07/2019 2:22 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

@gotti

My pelvic tilt is only on the left side. The right side is fine. 

I have fully addressed it in the past and it just comes back. I lack function up there. If it comes back it's something else that's causing it... Simple

Same with the neck tilt and the winging scapula. Especially the neck tilt. Doesn't matter how much I stretch one side and strengthen the other, it comes back.

It's the skull.

It's my crossbite, the uneven palate and the midline discrepancy. 

Pelvic tilts, at least mine started up on the palate. I'm studying physiotherapy, I know how to solve these issues, I practice yoga almost everyday and I'm very flexible. I'm very aware of my own body.. It's a fight you won't win with posture if you have unsolved business on the skull.

I have no proof it starts on the palate but I don't need it. I can literally FEEL my body twisting at the end of everyday day and it's due to poor masticatory function and the uneven use of my neck muscles because of the uneven palate.

Especially if I go to the gym and or take part in stuff that involves weight lifting. Cycling has been helping me a lot, it restores assymetry and requires flexibility. Just a tip. 

Imagine you re deadlifting 200kg. You lack space only on the left side of the palate like me, about 4mm at the front and like 6-8mm at the molar level. When you lift it up your neck will ALWAYS tilt to the side that lacks space. Your tongue has nowhere to go but stay down on or overlap the teeth on the underdeveloped side. That is what setting up the cascade of problems. I think that if I wasn't assymetric I probably wouldn't have noticed this. It starts in the skull bro. It's the tongue space 100%.

Now I'm not saying a pelvic tilt will not cause CFD.. It logically can and will, if not addressed. But not in my case. 

Same with the nerd neck. If your mandible isn't out of your airways you'll never achieve good neck posture effortlessly. Not without extractions. 

 

 

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Posted : 12/07/2019 3:08 pm
WrongNotes
Active Member

@Ayla31

Can't say I am familiar with those things.  Based on my brief googlings, it seems a lot of that is related to the brain? 

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Posted : 13/07/2019 5:31 am
Ayla31
Trusted Member

@WrongNotes, yes, the brain maps the body and world around it, and that influences the was we move, and hence how we sense/feel things. 

Normally it is done unconsciously, but I have found some literature that shows one can actually do it consciously as well, to be able to secure it (since maps in the brain are prone to change). Learning to "map" their body and its parts, in function, size, and structure. When done correctly, the map will fit the territory and the tension disappears.

If you think you are more fat than you really are (vice versa), you will have tension and the movement will also be strained. If, after losing a hand, you still have a hand in your body map, you will most probably experience phantom limb sensations. If your tongue is smaller or bigger, or has structural errors in your body map, you will have tension and won't be able to move it very well (but when someone says for example, that the hyoid bone is where the root of the tongue is, then it is suddenly easier. Specially when done with pictures).

So the good thing is that one can correct any errors in this body map and the sensation experience will be better. There will be Body awareness and one will feel oneself as... meat and bone? Or in other words, grounded and embodied.

But I mention this, because you talk about the importance of sensing, tension vs. freedom/relaxation and I really understand what you say.

Since I work with these topics years ago, I have noticed how crucial it is, to be able to sense yourself and your surroundings in order to heal better and live better. I have had also many moments of doing just mewing thinking only about the tongue and it's close surroundings, and that doesn't help a lot (and distorts the body map if not mapped in relation with the whole rest of the body and the world, creating unnecessary tension everywhere). But when I map the eyes and the nose, for example, I find it unbelievable how the tongue wants to go automatically up (how each part affect the other). And you see better just in sensing/mapping the eyes, or taste better when you have an embodied tongue.

So its good when people insist on paying attention in the rest of the body and it's alignment (as Mike himself also does, but as your local PRI practitioner mentions, still not quite grasping the whole picture).

Anyways, thank you again for bringing up this important and, in my eyes, very underrated topic.

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Posted : 13/07/2019 4:19 pm
WrongNotes and Odys liked
WrongNotes
Active Member

@Ayla31

Interesting stuff.  I think these a lot of ideas have been expressed in various ways throughout medical history (e.g. Chi in Chinese medicine, Pranayama in yoga), but they've seemingly become more and more fringe with the advent of modern science.  It's unsurprising I suppose, as we've become a specie dependent on the concept of measurement for improvement, and physiological states are generally too vague to be measured.

The problem is that most people don't even know that they're living with tension much of the time.  I've come to understand that even subtle (and what I would have previously considered insignificant) things like squinting can be detrimental to your physical and mental wellbeing in the long run.  Chronic inability to sense the world around you results in spinal extension, which then proliferates a whole load of other undesirable symptoms.  The whole body matters.

A big part of PRI is the use of 'circuit breaking' exercises and appliances to remove parts of the sensory chain from the equation.  So the 90/90 hip lift breathing exercise simulates (and trains) ideal rib position.  If you know your diaphragm is functioning correctly (which it normally is when you're in a state of flexion), and you still have tension, then you know there are problems further along the chain. 

Similarly, if a faulty occlusion is causing your body tension, something simple like a mouthguard across the bottom teeth can remove them from the equation.  Test again.  Perhaps it's your feet not sensing the ground properly?  Orthotics and arch inserts can assist.

I have an elementary understanding of all this stuff, but it's been a real eye opener.  If you were to google 'fixing neck pain', 95% of the results would revolve around massage, stretching and treatment that involves attacking the neck directly (this is how most physios make their money).  But for a lot of people, this kind of treatment is more like a band aid.  I'm paraphrasing here because I can't remember the exact line, but it makes me think of another quote I read from Ron Hruska (PRI founder):  "A neck problem is almost never a neck problem."

Cheers, and thanks for your input.

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Posted : 14/07/2019 6:12 am
Ayla31 liked
Ayla31
Trusted Member

@WrongNotes, Fascinating. Yeah, every part is interconnected. I hope such methods become more and more widespread and be integrated into education or something. Before we fuse with our cellphones and computers..

Till then keep up the good work and thanks for the info as well! 

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Posted : 15/07/2019 3:56 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Roflcopters

@gotti

My pelvic tilt is only on the left side. The right side is fine. 

I have fully addressed it in the past and it just comes back. I lack function up there. If it comes back it's something else that's causing it... Simple

Same with the neck tilt and the winging scapula. Especially the neck tilt. Doesn't matter how much I stretch one side and strengthen the other, it comes back.

It's the skull.

I generally (and respectfully) disagree (not speaking for your case) Ronald's neck and lower third have reverted, which means that what you're implying above is simply not the general case. I'd argue that this will be the case for almost everyone, if not everyone. Like you have clearly stated, if certain structural changes have not been naturally retained with time, that is a clear indication that there is still an imbalance somewhere, and it's not coming from the mandible at all. Ronald's experience has proved this, at least for his case. If there were actual truth to any of what you're stating above, his mandibular changes would have not only solidified themselves, but they would have also kept his neck nice and straight like how it initially was right after his treatment was concluded. Bowen therapy results, and other good chiro results do not relapse under any circumstance because the bones are essentially in their proper placement.

It's my crossbite, the uneven palate and the midline discrepancy. 

Pelvic tilts, at least mine started up on the palate. I'm studying physiotherapy, I know how to solve these issues, I practice yoga almost everyday and I'm very flexible. I'm very aware of my own body.. It's a fight you won't win with posture if you have unsolved business on the skull.

The body works as one, not two. The skull can remodel due to bad posture, and it can also revert itself due to attaining  proper posture. I can't say anything else as there is nothing more to add. The body isn't [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated], we have learned this throughout the years, especially after things like pro longed fasting and the placebo/nocebo effect have been acknowledged and figured out to an extent.

I have no proof it starts on the palate but I don't need it. I can literally FEEL my body twisting at the end of everyday day and it's due to poor masticatory function and the uneven use of my neck muscles because of the uneven palate.

Especially if I go to the gym and or take part in stuff that involves weight lifting. Cycling has been helping me a lot, it restores assymetry and requires flexibility. Just a tip. 

I find this quite fascinating, can you elaborate on what type of asymmetries are corrected by indulging in this type of behavior bro? Thanks so much for this share.

Imagine you re deadlifting 200kg. You lack space only on the left side of the palate like me, about 4mm at the front and like 6-8mm at the molar level. When you lift it up your neck will ALWAYS tilt to the side that lacks space. Your tongue has nowhere to go but stay down on or overlap the teeth on the underdeveloped side. That is what setting up the cascade of problems. I think that if I wasn't assymetric I probably wouldn't have noticed this. It starts in the skull bro. It's the tongue space 100%.

Now I'm not saying a pelvic tilt will not cause CFD.. It logically can and will, if not addressed. But not in my case. 

I understand how you feel and maybe you are right about your case. I am not really trying to judge your case since you would know about it much better than I. I am mostly speaking on how the body works in general. Again, the body isn't stupid. If you were not born with a horrible birth defect, your body has a genetic blueprint and can change due to epigenetic factors the same way it can correct itself due to the same type of factors. That is why people like Dr. Robert Morse have reported aiding in healing individuals of scoliosis from a specific diet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-SVuJdY_NI   here's my view, if I can induce change to my pelvis and every single other bone of my body via practice bad/good posture why can't I change my skull bones in the same manner? If I can experience compensation of the cranial facial structure from a pelvic tilt, why can it not be reversed by addressing the primary cause of it, which was essentially a pelvic tilt? 

Same with the nerd neck. If your mandible isn't out of your airways you'll never achieve good neck posture effortlessly. Not without extractions. 

See, this is where we disagree because you seem to be speaking in general terms and not just for your case. Bro, what makes you think that skull bones do not remodel based on general body posture much like literally every single bone in your body can? Again, the body works as one unit, not two units. Just take a look at cases of "hard flaccid" where the whole body (including the head)  compensates for one single imbalance around the pelvic floor region that was all caused by an imbalance of ones body posture to begin with. This discussion comes off as something similar to you telling me that hard flaccid can be corrected by addressing the p***s itself or perhaps addressing and maintaining full focus on the muscles of the pelvic floor, which DOES WORK (kind of like temporarily repositioning the mandible), however the results are not retained due to the real imbalance, which is a pelvic tilt and poor postural habits. We are not just talking about a hard flaccid p***s here, we are talking about that and the entire body experiencing compensation/remodeling due to one little imbalance (I believe a cramped ischio muscle) which all came to fruition in courtesy of poor postural habits. The whole body, head included, can undergo significant compensation when one single imbalance occurs with no doubt. The head is not different from the body at all, even SUGR has acknowledged that postural changes can occur as a result of correction of the atlas and has also stated that general body posture correction consistently challenges his views as an ortho. Of course he still seems to attain certain views of an ortho when he speaks on other opinions based on the cases he see's here, but I believe those views will continue to change overtime as he implements posture optimization in his practice. 

 

 

 

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Posted : 18/07/2019 12:56 am
posturized
New Member

Dear Gotti,

It seems you are suggesting bad body posture has caused bad cranial positioining, whereas Roflcopters is suggesting cranial positioning has caused bad body posture.

There's no doubt they both reinforce each other in my view and experience. The first step I think we all agree on is fixing overall body position, then trying to get the head and neck in some type of normal position, at which point we are left with a recessed cranium.

I think the biggest quest of this forum is trying to discover the answer - can an adult remodel bones in the cranium? And to what extent?

It would be wise on this quest to fix body/head posture as much as possible from the ground up, as we know how interconnected everything is.  Once the body is in a better posture, and head in a better position, hopefully the cranial bones can move and remodel, especially as we mew, and put more force through our massetters (chewing). But the jury is still out.

In my experience, once body posture is in a better position, I am then glaringly left with bad cranial bone positioning (it becomes more noticable when body posture is corrected - pelvic tilt, rib cage, shoulders).

It then leads to the pursuing of mewing, and appliances within the cranium to see if we can get things moving up there, and this in my view is where we are at as a community.

 

 

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Posted : 18/07/2019 3:57 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: posturized

Dear Gotti,

It seems you are suggesting bad body posture has caused bad cranial positioining, whereas Roflcopters is suggesting cranial positioning has caused bad body posture.

There's no doubt they both reinforce each other in my view and experience. The first step I think we all agree on is fixing overall body position, then trying to get the head and neck in some type of normal position, at which point we are left with a recessed cranium.

I think the biggest quest of this forum is trying to discover the answer - can an adult remodel bones in the cranium? And to what extent?

It would be wise on this quest to fix body/head posture as much as possible from the ground up, as we know how interconnected everything is.  Once the body is in a better posture, and head in a better position, hopefully the cranial bones can move and remodel, especially as we mew, and put more force through our massetters (chewing). But the jury is still out.

In my experience, once body posture is in a better position, I am then glaringly left with bad cranial bone positioning (it becomes more noticable when body posture is corrected - pelvic tilt, rib cage, shoulders).

It then leads to the pursuing of mewing, and appliances within the cranium to see if we can get things moving up there, and this in my view is where we are at as a community.

 

 

Exactly. @gotti (I'm enjoying this discussion buddy) 

That's pretty much what I wanted to say. 

They go hand in hand and reinforce each other but I still think it starts in the skull. 

I have almost fully addressed the pelvic tilt and overall body posture to a very very good condition before dude, BUT Ive come to the conclusion that I can't maintain both at the same time.

Maybe less assymetric cases with wider palates won't notice what I'm noticing but like I said, there's no doubt in my case that the problem is a lack of like 4mm on one side of the palate. Without fixing this lack of function that creates a head tilt, no matter how much work I do on the body, I'll never be able to maintain it. It will just come back unless I'm constantly forcing my tongue on the underdeveloped side, which is pretty much a fight between body posture and oral posture. It's what would be needed to expand and fix it but it's too stressful. That's why I advise against hard mewing. Under oxygenation is also something I've noticed if I try to do both tasks. 

That's why I stopped mewing for now and will just focus on body posture and getting either an MSE if I can afford it or an Homeoblock until I can afford the MSE. Currently waiting on a response from Dr ramon Dominguez Mompell on what the price tag is. 

Like @posturized said, since only focusing on body posture, my CFD symptoms started showing more on the face. In order to maintain good enough body posture, especially cervical, I have to let my mandible jut a little forward and I fall back to mouth breathing sometimes. Mid face looks droopier. But I feel way less stressed and the pelvis and the neck posture are balancing with just a few exercises a week. Again stress = under oxygenation/bad sleep. 

Good cervical posture reinforces the way I should mew naturally and it makes my tongue hit the under developed spots on the palate alot better than if I only focused on mewing but.. if you lack too much space on the palate, you will relapse on body posture. 

 

If your cranium isn't balanced with the spine it starts putting more weight towards the imbalance and your body compensates. I rather look assymetric and forget mewing for a while then being stressed and very tight on the body. 

Putting it in a very simple way, at least for me:

Good body posture = too hard to mew. I can hold it for a few days but the muscles that are being used to remodel the palate just get too tired and I can't hold it. Overall I just start feeling very tired and I can't get proper sleep. It's like a fight between oral posture and body posture and it always ends up with me not being able to do any of them properly if done together. 

Imagine you tie 3 simple knots on your shoes. 

You know that the 1st knot is what's holding everything up But when you untie your shoes you have to start with the last knot. You can't do them all together. 

So regardless of what causes what, fixing my uneven palate with a good amount of expansion is mandatory for me to be able to have the body posture I want to have.

Another example I gave you on the other reply was whenever I put my body into physical stress, especially weight training, it gets out of balance very fast and the pelvic and scapular winging symptoms come very very fast again. And it's not a matter of me doing them wrong, because like I said I'm studying physiotherapy and I have a pretty good awareness of my body. It's the fact that when I clench my Jaws together to perform a lift my head automatically tilts to the underdeveloped side. Even when I take special care not to do it.

I'm w8ing on the doctors response for the mse and I'm actually very excited to see how much it will make a difference. I think it will be night and day. 

Another example is the Alf. Doesn't it address head tilts and rotations due to the expansion? 

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Posted : 18/07/2019 9:01 am
posturized
New Member

@rofclopters, for what it's worth - I am in the same view as you; my overall body posture, was caused by an underdeveloped cranium - namely incorrect tongue posture in my youth.

Recessed and down grown maxilla, causes forward head posture, which then causes extension of the body (fight or flight) - which is to say the ribcage moves forward and up and the pelvis goes into anterior tilt, to try and center the cranium on top the body.

We are then left with a reccessed maxilla, out of position mandible with weak facial muscles, extended ribcage posture, with an anterior pelvic tilt. 

As we begin to fix our body posture, we are left, as you said, with glaringly obvious deficiencies in the cranial structure - making it even impossible to mew correctly (becomes futile). 

This is where we now need appliances to help give us the room in our maxilla to start getting some proper tongue space to generate force through our palate, and hopefully better mandible position to start generating force through our masseters. All this on top of a consciously good body posture, seems in my mind to be the most promising course of action.

I'm seeing both a local AGGA practitioner and Dr Mew himself at the end of the month (both on the same day) - Ill share any findings.

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Posted : 18/07/2019 9:25 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: @posturized

As we begin to fix our body posture, we are left, as you said, with glaringly obvious deficiencies in the cranial structure - making it even impossible to mew correctly (becomes futile). 

This is where we now need appliances to help give us the room in our maxilla to start getting some proper tongue space to generate force through our palate, and hopefully better mandible position to start generating force through our masseters. All this on top of a consciously good body posture, seems in my mind to be the most promising course of action.

I'm seeing both a local AGGA practitioner and Dr Mew himself at the end of the month (both on the same day) - Ill share any findings.

This.

I stopped mewing as much recently because in my case it just became futile.

Even tho I believe bone modeling your maxilla and growing it is possible by mewing, it just takes too long and your body is in constant stress mode.

Mewing while fixing your body posture on really underdeveloped maxilla cases is like trying to cut a rock with a piece of wood.

It works and can be done but it has to be done in a way that you don't break the stick. Highly inefficient having in mind the amount of expansion we need.

Now if we're talking about some1 with a moderate to high IMW that has a little expansion required to fix his CFD, I believe mewing is probably even better than any type of appliance. 

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Posted : 18/07/2019 2:05 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

Good to hear you re seeking AGGA!

I was also thinking about it but there's no agga practioners out there close to Portugal and it's more expensive than MSE. I definetely need forward expansion aswell, having in mind the only way I can adopt good body posture is if I slide my mandible forward and that leaves me in a class 3, not a huge one but yeah. that's why I mouth breathe.

Im inclined to go towards the MSE and BOW protraction because I don't lack that much forward growth, even tho it's a class 3, it isn't a big big one. Transverse deficiency is worse. Also think MSE will open up the airways alot more than AGGA would without the tipping.

Anyways, may I ask, could you pm me how much it cost you to visit Mike Mew? I wanted to just go there for the experience and an actual opinion. I'm going to England next month to visit a friend soo.. might aswell 

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Posted : 18/07/2019 2:30 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Roflcopters
Posted by: posturized

Dear Gotti,

It seems you are suggesting bad body posture has caused bad cranial positioining, whereas Roflcopters is suggesting cranial positioning has caused bad body posture.

There's no doubt they both reinforce each other in my view and experience. The first step I think we all agree on is fixing overall body position, then trying to get the head and neck in some type of normal position, at which point we are left with a recessed cranium.

I think the biggest quest of this forum is trying to discover the answer - can an adult remodel bones in the cranium? And to what extent?

It would be wise on this quest to fix body/head posture as much as possible from the ground up, as we know how interconnected everything is.  Once the body is in a better posture, and head in a better position, hopefully the cranial bones can move and remodel, especially as we mew, and put more force through our massetters (chewing). But the jury is still out.

In my experience, once body posture is in a better position, I am then glaringly left with bad cranial bone positioning (it becomes more noticable when body posture is corrected - pelvic tilt, rib cage, shoulders).

It then leads to the pursuing of mewing, and appliances within the cranium to see if we can get things moving up there, and this in my view is where we are at as a community.

 

 

Exactly. @gotti (I'm enjoying this discussion buddy) 

That's pretty much what I wanted to say. 

They go hand in hand and reinforce each other but I still think it starts in the skull. 

I have almost fully addressed the pelvic tilt and overall body posture to a very very good condition before dude, BUT Ive come to the conclusion that I can't maintain both at the same time.

Maybe less assymetric cases with wider palates won't notice what I'm noticing but like I said, there's no doubt in my case that the problem is a lack of like 4mm on one side of the palate. Without fixing this lack of function that creates a head tilt, no matter how much work I do on the body, I'll never be able to maintain it. It will just come back unless I'm constantly forcing my tongue on the underdeveloped side, which is pretty much a fight between body posture and oral posture. It's what would be needed to expand and fix it but it's too stressful. That's why I advise against hard mewing. Under oxygenation is also something I've noticed if I try to do both tasks. 

That's why I stopped mewing for now and will just focus on body posture and getting either an MSE if I can afford it or an Homeoblock until I can afford the MSE. Currently waiting on a response from Dr ramon Dominguez Mompell on what the price tag is. 

Like @posturized said, since only focusing on body posture, my CFD symptoms started showing more on the face. In order to maintain good enough body posture, especially cervical, I have to let my mandible jut a little forward and I fall back to mouth breathing sometimes. Mid face looks droopier. But I feel way less stressed and the pelvis and the neck posture are balancing with just a few exercises a week. Again stress = under oxygenation/bad sleep. 

Good cervical posture reinforces the way I should mew naturally and it makes my tongue hit the under developed spots on the palate alot better than if I only focused on mewing but.. if you lack too much space on the palate, you will relapse on body posture. 

 

If your cranium isn't balanced with the spine it starts putting more weight towards the imbalance and your body compensates. I rather look assymetric and forget mewing for a while then being stressed and very tight on the body. 

Putting it in a very simple way, at least for me:

Good body posture = too hard to mew. I can hold it for a few days but the muscles that are being used to remodel the palate just get too tired and I can't hold it. Overall I just start feeling very tired and I can't get proper sleep. It's like a fight between oral posture and body posture and it always ends up with me not being able to do any of them properly if done together. 

Imagine you tie 3 simple knots on your shoes. 

You know that the 1st knot is what's holding everything up But when you untie your shoes you have to start with the last knot. You can't do them all together. 

So regardless of what causes what, fixing my uneven palate with a good amount of expansion is mandatory for me to be able to have the body posture I want to have.

Another example I gave you on the other reply was whenever I put my body into physical stress, especially weight training, it gets out of balance very fast and the pelvic and scapular winging symptoms come very very fast again. And it's not a matter of me doing them wrong, because like I said I'm studying physiotherapy and I have a pretty good awareness of my body. It's the fact that when I clench my Jaws together to perform a lift my head automatically tilts to the underdeveloped side. Even when I take special care not to do it.

I'm w8ing on the doctors response for the mse and I'm actually very excited to see how much it will make a difference. I think it will be night and day. 

Another example is the Alf. Doesn't it address head tilts and rotations due to the expansion? 

Thanks a lot for the response, bro

Well, I can't fully disagree with what you are saying. But I can't agree 100% either. I will just agree to disagree and remain in research mode because I am not sure if either of us are right, however, I do get that gut feeling that, at least in my case, that  posture plays the biggest role

About MSE, didn't the consensus shift on that therapy already? I thought that it was just overhyped and that it was already established that MSE in conjunction with FM do not induce aesthetic changes? Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what that newbie guy said. Was newbie just a troll lol? But yea, I did think very highly of that protocol, initially... Now it's a gray area for me.. I also, since I am class 2, like the agga simply because my main flaw is a recessed lower jaw/small chin and the agga can help the lower third jut out some. It's actually incredible how much the lower third can come out as a result of agga treatment. Not to mention, better lip support and better nose shape for people with upturned noses. Also, better philtrum (shorter?) Aesthetically and also health wise, this may be just what I need as my lower jaw in pretty dug into my neck, especially now that my neck has become tighter with bad posture. if I take an older pic of myself and block the lower third, I look like a normal, and fairly good looking dude. My face could use some widening too, but overall I am not that collapsed imo aside from the lower jaw. Maybe this is because I have kept my lips sealed for a good potion of my life and have also managed to have kept the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth? Not sure. But braces definitely messed up my lower jaw. Ironically, I don't really have much asymmetry, at least it is not very noticeable. My septum however has deviated in the last few years more towards the side it has always been slightly deviated towards.

So, with that said, as far as MSE+FP goes, I would love or that therapy to be the therapy that ca induce some forward protraction so I can gain 5mm or so, preferably for both jaws. Of course, I will undergo some form of slow expansion first to milk things first. after that, if I still feel like it is necessary, I will opt for fillers and just reload on em every year. But for now, my main focus is health. Sedondary is the aesthetics after all health issues are solved. 

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Posted : 18/07/2019 5:45 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: WrongNotes
Posted by: posturized

@ronald - many thanks for your video responses. I think I will pursue both 5mm AGGA expansion, along with proper chewing as per fletcherism and see where I end up. I generally believe in a comprehensive programme that attacks all cranial (and body) deficiencies.

One thing I would like to offer you; my journey into cranial development and position, started from a bad back, and bad body posture, resulting in the realisation that it's all interlinked from cranium to feet. 

I have spent many thousands of dollars travelling the world to fix my body posture, not realising I had anything wrong with my cranium. For sure the best company/system for posture which lead me to my cranium issues, is a system called Postural Restoration Institute (PRI). They are aware of tongue/teeth/cranium positioning amongst other whole body patterns and positioning.

They have two good practitioners in New York area where I believe you are based: both Nael Hallinan and Michal Niedzielski -I have seen both (I am based in the UK).

Both Michal and Nael mew religiously and will fully understand and support your cranial efforts - but they are both experts on overall body posture, to the depth where they are studying eyesight & effect on effect posture. 

Good luck with everything

@posturized @ronaldead

If I may, I'd like expand on this.

I would seriously recommended everyone to look in to the works of the Postural Restoration Institute.  Discovering PRI several months back has really made me question everything I thought I understood about the body, posture and movement.

As @posturized alludes to, PRI focuses on the body as a sensory organism and how pathology can alter everything from your posture to your physiological function.

Your teeth, eyes, and feet are all sensory organisms that play a critical role in your ability to sense space.  If one of these senses becomes pathological for whatever reason, the body will change and adapt to maintain your basic survival mechanisms.

So while oral structure and function is extremely influential in a healthy body, it is just one part of the puzzle.  Your eyesight (peripheral vision), your ability to breathe correctly (restoring correct Zone of Apposition, and moving out of spinal extension) and even how your feet hit the ground (inappropriate footwear is a big issue for most people) all play influential roles in what happens to your body.

If one of several of these things aren't working as they're supposed, to then the neck is normally one of the first places to suffer.  Given it is holding your head and brain, the neck usually will stiffen and seize up in order to find stability.

So attaining correct posture is a more multi-faceted approach than most people realise.  While it might work for some people, treatment like 'stand up tall' and 'chin tuck' are often elementary solutions to more complex cases.  If you hold tension in your body and are constantly in a state of extension (hyper alert, body unable to relax) then forcing yourself in to uncomfortable postures and walking around in a chin tuck may well make things worse.

As far as the idea of surgery goes, I recall reading a quote from the founder of PRI Ron Hruska, and he said:  "I've learned one thing in life.  Jaw surgery does not work."

Make of that what you will, but I'd exhaust the downstream causes and effects of why your neck has caused you issues before going with surgical intervention.

hey guys, I was just skimming through this discussion and noticed this. Just saying...… This is a professional & head of PRI, saying this. This is another reason why the, curranty speaking, the only thing that makes the most sense to me is something in the nature of Bowen Therapy. Nothing else does, but I am still open to some of these appliances even though they simulate jaw surgery. My belief is that simple postural correction does not fully correct posture. Bowen, NST, and other forms of techniques which work with the subconscious mind do. I have also seen forums where people who has jaw surgery done have destroyed their posture.

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Posted : 19/07/2019 5:47 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member

FYI, I didn't mean to edit my post so many times. There was a tremendous lag on my end which caused me to constantly have to edit my post.  My apologies

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Posted : 19/07/2019 6:05 pm
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