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Recessed maxilla + strong chin  

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EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

A common misconception amongst some CFD sufferers is that their weak chin is caused by CFD. However look at the tall face of singer Ellie Goulding: 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRyDvhk6YI2umeOdUQjPYqgGgGPHKwWCXpEwBxf8S2cadQq1Qc

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQpUrLyXpsRY9idKQaZRwz2NfD_Jf9Clg5aqBoT1uY8Kn8g2m71fg

Her palate is narrow and her Mew indicator line seems well above 50mm. Her chin is very strong and projects well. However from the front view her midface is long and overall gives the impression of downward growth. Her face actually is one of the most downward grown I have seem of a famous person.

Reminder that chin size is genetic. 

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Posted : 16/09/2018 4:12 pm Rockyp33 liked
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Rockyp33
(@rockyp33)
Estimable Member

i think theres just too many factors that can go into it to explain why her face is that way

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Posted : 16/09/2018 7:50 pm
Jawanomics
(@jawanomics)
Active Member

Crescent moon face

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Posted : 16/09/2018 7:55 pm
Jawanomics
(@jawanomics)
Active Member

He pulls it off strangely well because all his other features are great and characterfull.

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Posted : 16/09/2018 7:57 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Rockyp33

i think theres just too many factors that can go into it to explain why her face is that way

The one huge factor being genetics. British chin development is one of the strongest in the world if not most developed. The opposite happens with say West Africans who have very small mandibles and weak chins even with excellent facial structure.

Her maxilla is visibly recessed because her palate is very narrow, her Mew line very high (looks 55-60 to me) and her face is long for a female. 

If she fixed her maxilla her chin would remain equally strong but her face would become shorter. 

Similarly I don't want people to think their genetically weak chin will somehow project insanely when they decrease their Mew line. It will improve of course but never to a level that will make them look unlike themselves.

My theory on her face btw is that she does tongue on mandible posture. Those usually let the mandible develop further than the other parts of the face. I know this because my face is very similar. 

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Posted : 16/09/2018 8:54 pm
zosogg
(@zosogg)
Eminent Member

I don't get the point of this. Everything is genetic. But people do have much weaker chins then they would have because of CFD. If CFD was not a thing, of course there would be minor chin size variation with some tails at the extremities, like a normal distribution, but there would be no "weak chins" in the sense it's used here. The weak chin is not really to do with the size of the chin but rather the angle at which the mandible juts out from the face. Ellie goulding does have a long face for a celebrity but her mandibular angle is still much smaller than mine. In fact, a factor that contribute to something like this is that her maxilla has indeed moved downwards to some degree, but she has decent forward growth. All in all, she has a very minor case of CFD compared to most modern man. You can see in all her photos tremendously good closed mouth lip posture. I hypothesize that she probably kept her mouth closed most of her life, with good lip position and body posture, but maybe had somewhat poor tongue posture. 

See the angle of her jaw https://images.spot.im/v1/production/isitxbxsh9neriwd0w6s

and notice her prominent cheekbones. 

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Posted : 16/09/2018 11:37 pm FutureModel liked
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: zosogg

I don't get the point of this. Everything is genetic. But people do have much weaker chins then they would have because of CFD. If CFD was not a thing, of course there would be minor chin size variation with some tails at the extremities, like a normal distribution, but there would be no "weak chins" in the sense it's used here. The weak chin is not really to do with the size of the chin but rather the angle at which the mandible juts out from the face. Ellie goulding does have a long face for a celebrity but her mandibular angle is still much smaller than mine. In fact, a factor that contribute to something like this is that her maxilla has indeed moved downwards to some degree, but she has decent forward growth. All in all, she has a very minor case of CFD compared to most modern man. You can see in all her photos tremendously good closed mouth lip posture. I hypothesize that she probably kept her mouth closed most of her life, with good lip position and body posture, but maybe had somewhat poor tongue posture. 

See the angle of her jaw https://images.spot.im/v1/production/isitxbxsh9neriwd0w6s

and notice her prominent cheekbones. 

Her forward growth is non existent. If you see how far her incisors are from her nose you will see just how off that statement is. Her narrow palate (looks in the low 30s) indicates her forward growth is weak in and of itself. Never mind her long midface and downward facing nose.

Jaw angle is due to ramus length mostly. The longer your ramus the lower your gonial angle. But long ramus =/= good forward growth either. With a palate that narrow and face that long her cfd is absolutely in the normal range of Westerners. 

What you are thinking of with the mandible down swung is another type of cfd caused my a clockwise rotated maxilla mostly due to mouth breathing. Her face doesn't look like a mouth breather but it definitely shows tongue on floor posture as opposed to roof. And again, her face is very long for a woman. 

Don't let decent mandibular development distract you from the rest of the picture. Myself I have a good mandible size and strong chin but it does not mean I have no cfd. I posted her face because mine is very similarly long and with good chin development. And this is despite the fact I have been a mouth breather most of my life. Cfd is never the same on every person. But I am posting this to show that there is a misconception that cfd creates the same features in all people. There are a myriad of ways your posture can be bad and mouth breathing is just one of them. 

This post was modified 2 months  ago by EddieMoney
ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2018 10:07 am
zosogg
(@zosogg)
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: zosogg

I don't get the point of this. Everything is genetic. But people do have much weaker chins then they would have because of CFD. If CFD was not a thing, of course there would be minor chin size variation with some tails at the extremities, like a normal distribution, but there would be no "weak chins" in the sense it's used here. The weak chin is not really to do with the size of the chin but rather the angle at which the mandible juts out from the face. Ellie goulding does have a long face for a celebrity but her mandibular angle is still much smaller than mine. In fact, a factor that contribute to something like this is that her maxilla has indeed moved downwards to some degree, but she has decent forward growth. All in all, she has a very minor case of CFD compared to most modern man. You can see in all her photos tremendously good closed mouth lip posture. I hypothesize that she probably kept her mouth closed most of her life, with good lip position and body posture, but maybe had somewhat poor tongue posture. 

See the angle of her jaw https://images.spot.im/v1/production/isitxbxsh9neriwd0w6s

and notice her prominent cheekbones. 

Her forward growth is non existent. If you see how far her incisors are from her nose you will see just how off that statement is. Her narrow palate (looks in the low 30s) indicates her forward growth is weak in and of itself. Never mind her long midface and downward facing nose.

Jaw angle is due to ramus length mostly. The longer your ramus the lower your gonial angle. But long ramus =/= good forward growth either. With a palate that narrow and face that long her cfd is absolutely in the normal range of Westerners. 

What you are thinking of with the mandible down swung is another type of cfd caused my a clockwise rotated maxilla mostly due to mouth breathing. Her face doesn't look like a mouth breather but it definitely shows tongue on floor posture as opposed to roof. And again, her face is very long for a woman. 

Don't let decent mandibular development distract you from the rest of the picture. Myself I have a good mandible size and strong chin but it does not mean I have no cfd. I posted her face because mine is very similarly long and with good chin development. And this is despite the fact I have been a mouth breather most of my life. Cfd is never the same on every person. But I am posting this to show that there is a misconception that cfd creates the same features in all people. There are a myriad of ways your posture can be bad and mouth breathing is just one of them. 

That's fine, I mostly just took issue with you saying in your OP that a common misconception is that peoples weak chins are caused by cfd, when in fact a majority of the time this is the case. This is not genetic. There is certainly always a genetic component but environment is very important. It's like height, which is very much determined by genetics, but if you're malnourished it wont really matter. Malnutrition here is analogous to CFD 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2018 11:23 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: zosogg
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: zosogg

I don't get the point of this. Everything is genetic. But people do have much weaker chins then they would have because of CFD. If CFD was not a thing, of course there would be minor chin size variation with some tails at the extremities, like a normal distribution, but there would be no "weak chins" in the sense it's used here. The weak chin is not really to do with the size of the chin but rather the angle at which the mandible juts out from the face. Ellie goulding does have a long face for a celebrity but her mandibular angle is still much smaller than mine. In fact, a factor that contribute to something like this is that her maxilla has indeed moved downwards to some degree, but she has decent forward growth. All in all, she has a very minor case of CFD compared to most modern man. You can see in all her photos tremendously good closed mouth lip posture. I hypothesize that she probably kept her mouth closed most of her life, with good lip position and body posture, but maybe had somewhat poor tongue posture. 

See the angle of her jaw https://images.spot.im/v1/production/isitxbxsh9neriwd0w6s

and notice her prominent cheekbones. 

Her forward growth is non existent. If you see how far her incisors are from her nose you will see just how off that statement is. Her narrow palate (looks in the low 30s) indicates her forward growth is weak in and of itself. Never mind her long midface and downward facing nose.

Jaw angle is due to ramus length mostly. The longer your ramus the lower your gonial angle. But long ramus =/= good forward growth either. With a palate that narrow and face that long her cfd is absolutely in the normal range of Westerners. 

What you are thinking of with the mandible down swung is another type of cfd caused my a clockwise rotated maxilla mostly due to mouth breathing. Her face doesn't look like a mouth breather but it definitely shows tongue on floor posture as opposed to roof. And again, her face is very long for a woman. 

Don't let decent mandibular development distract you from the rest of the picture. Myself I have a good mandible size and strong chin but it does not mean I have no cfd. I posted her face because mine is very similarly long and with good chin development. And this is despite the fact I have been a mouth breather most of my life. Cfd is never the same on every person. But I am posting this to show that there is a misconception that cfd creates the same features in all people. There are a myriad of ways your posture can be bad and mouth breathing is just one of them. 

That's fine, I mostly just took issue with you saying in your OP that a common misconception is that peoples weak chins are caused by cfd, when in fact a majority of the time this is the case. This is not genetic. There is certainly always a genetic component but environment is very important. It's like height, which is very much determined by genetics, but if you're malnourished it wont really matter. Malnutrition here is analogous to CFD 

By weak chin I more so meant a short distance from incisors to pogonion. Not necessarily a downswung maxilla/mandible. People whose pogonion is not very large will have small chins even with a forward grown face. But they won't look like the girl in your link (which is a type of CFD but not all types look like her).

Mike Mew went into the various types and the tongue postures that cause them. My guess is that Ellie has lifelong closed mouth posture which allowed her mandible to develop well but her tongue resting posture pulled her face down and narrowed her palate in the meantime.

Meanwhile someone like Chris Brown and his girlfriend have decent maxillary development/projection yet their chins are nowhere near developed like Ellie's and that in and of itself is genetic. If you see their occlusal planes their maxilla position is more on an upswing but the distance from pogonion to lower teeth seems quite short which is opposite of Ellie.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4TwUzswCMN5jq-IDFOIxSe9kG_Mxrr-RXBzZ4qm8dPXIJHmg7

My guess is here that Ellie Goulding has a larger mandible whereas in the case of Chris Brown and Karrueche Tran it seems their mandibles are naturally smaller. Usually people with small mandibles have small chins. And counterclockwise rotation won't change that . 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/09/2018 12:17 pm
zosogg
(@zosogg)
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: zosogg
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: zosogg

I don't get the point of this. Everything is genetic. But people do have much weaker chins then they would have because of CFD. If CFD was not a thing, of course there would be minor chin size variation with some tails at the extremities, like a normal distribution, but there would be no "weak chins" in the sense it's used here. The weak chin is not really to do with the size of the chin but rather the angle at which the mandible juts out from the face. Ellie goulding does have a long face for a celebrity but her mandibular angle is still much smaller than mine. In fact, a factor that contribute to something like this is that her maxilla has indeed moved downwards to some degree, but she has decent forward growth. All in all, she has a very minor case of CFD compared to most modern man. You can see in all her photos tremendously good closed mouth lip posture. I hypothesize that she probably kept her mouth closed most of her life, with good lip position and body posture, but maybe had somewhat poor tongue posture. 

See the angle of her jaw https://images.spot.im/v1/production/isitxbxsh9neriwd0w6s

and notice her prominent cheekbones. 

Her forward growth is non existent. If you see how far her incisors are from her nose you will see just how off that statement is. Her narrow palate (looks in the low 30s) indicates her forward growth is weak in and of itself. Never mind her long midface and downward facing nose.

Jaw angle is due to ramus length mostly. The longer your ramus the lower your gonial angle. But long ramus =/= good forward growth either. With a palate that narrow and face that long her cfd is absolutely in the normal range of Westerners. 

What you are thinking of with the mandible down swung is another type of cfd caused my a clockwise rotated maxilla mostly due to mouth breathing. Her face doesn't look like a mouth breather but it definitely shows tongue on floor posture as opposed to roof. And again, her face is very long for a woman. 

Don't let decent mandibular development distract you from the rest of the picture. Myself I have a good mandible size and strong chin but it does not mean I have no cfd. I posted her face because mine is very similarly long and with good chin development. And this is despite the fact I have been a mouth breather most of my life. Cfd is never the same on every person. But I am posting this to show that there is a misconception that cfd creates the same features in all people. There are a myriad of ways your posture can be bad and mouth breathing is just one of them. 

That's fine, I mostly just took issue with you saying in your OP that a common misconception is that peoples weak chins are caused by cfd, when in fact a majority of the time this is the case. This is not genetic. There is certainly always a genetic component but environment is very important. It's like height, which is very much determined by genetics, but if you're malnourished it wont really matter. Malnutrition here is analogous to CFD 

By weak chin I more so meant a short distance from incisors to pogonion. Not necessarily a downswung maxilla/mandible. People whose pogonion is not very large will have small chins even with a forward grown face. But they won't look like the girl in your link (which is a type of CFD but not all types look like her).

Mike Mew went into the various types and the tongue postures that cause them. My guess is that Ellie has lifelong closed mouth posture which allowed her mandible to develop well but her tongue resting posture pulled her face down and narrowed her palate in the meantime.

Meanwhile someone like Chris Brown and his girlfriend have decent maxillary development/projection yet their chins are nowhere near developed like Ellie's and that in and of itself is genetic. If you see their occlusal planes their maxilla position is more on an upswing but the distance from pogonion to lower teeth seems quite short which is opposite of Ellie.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4TwUzswCMN5jq-IDFOIxSe9kG_Mxrr-RXBzZ4qm8dPXIJHmg7

My guess is here that Ellie Goulding has a larger mandible whereas in the case of Chris Brown and Karrueche Tran it seems their mandibles are naturally smaller. Usually people with small mandibles have small chins. And counterclockwise rotation won't change that . 

Ah I see. Ya your distance from teeth to pogonion certaintly (at least as far as we know) is genetic. When I hear weak chin, I think of people with that downsmung mandible. Personally I wouldn't look at Chris Brown and say he has a weak chin, at least when compared to people that have sever CFD. 

This is a very interesting topic though. I was thinking yesterday about tongue ties, and wondering how much of that is truly "genetic", and how much of tongue tie can be fixed by proper primal environmental upbringing. As far as we know its genetic, but I also used to think that the way your face looked was entirely genetic so I question a lot of things now. If a tongue tie is genetic, that means that you are going to have CFD, which in a sense means that your CFD is genetic. This makes me think even things like tongue ties may have some environmental factor 

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Posted : 17/09/2018 4:55 pm EddieMoney liked
JFLboyos
(@jflboyos)
Active Member

JFL I have recessed maxilla chin mandible. 

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Posted : 17/09/2018 5:18 pm
Rockyp33
(@rockyp33)
Estimable Member

@zosogg some babies are born with some tongue ties but alot of the time if breast fed they dont really affect anything, i do think gaining proper tongue posture very young tends to negate the affects or completely get rid of the tie i doubt there many people that were breast fed for years that have tongue ties or terrible tongue posture

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Posted : 17/09/2018 8:03 pm EddieMoney liked
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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