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Ramus and airway

FanaticMind
Active Member

If your ramus gets longer for example by Chewing, does it increase your airway space? 

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Topic starter Posted : 03/05/2020 2:21 am
Thomas22
Estimable Member

I assume your jaw would move forward, as the Ramus lengthened, so yes.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 3:17 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@FanaticMind

 What is reasoning behind chewing lengthening the ramus? Increased bone density? If so, how would this move the jaw forwards, @Thomas22?

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Posted : 03/05/2020 3:59 am
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member

hi, 

i don't know, but expansion in general should improve breathing, because it increases the total volume inside your mouth provinding the tongue more space where to rest preventing it to obstruct the airway. Ramus remodelling (as much as possible) could provide more space 

 3:38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2vqxBkRoXI&t=161s

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Posted : 03/05/2020 4:45 am
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @fanaticmind

If your ramus gets longer for example by Chewing, does it increase your airway space? 

I also raise Loliboy's question, how can chewing make the ramus longer? We only see a correlation type of studies, not causation. If anything, wouldn't tensing the masseter make the ramus smaller?

Some causation studies do support the finding though in rabbits :

In the soft-diet group, the duty time of the superficial masseter muscle at higher activity levels was significantly lower than that in the hard-diet group. This decrease in muscular loading of the jaw system was accompanied by: a significant reduction in (i) articular cartilage thickness, (ii) expression of IGF-1r immunopositive cells and (iii) mandible ramus height

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24702545

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Posted : 03/05/2020 5:28 am
Loliboly liked
auxiliary
Reputable Member

Here's one more showing effect in adult rats :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20189701

There were significant differences in all measurements on the BTX-A side compared with those on the control side. The differences included a decreased ramus height, increased gonial angle, and increased crown height of the posterior teeth on the injection side. Significant decreases in the muscle weight, bone mineral content, cortical thickness, and trabecular thickness were also seen on the paralyzed side compared with the non-injection side

We found that reduced masticatory function in adult rats affected the weight of the masseter muscle and the bony structure and dentition.

 

However there are also very conflicting correlation studies on humans :

The aim of this study was to investigate the relationship between masseter muscle size and craniofacial morphology, focusing on the maxilla. Twenty-four patients (11 males and 13 females; mean age 27.6 ± 5.6 years) underwent cephalometric analyses. Ultrasonography was used to measure the cross-sectional area (CSA) of the masseter muscle and bite force was measured using pressure sensitive film.

The results showed that CSA-relaxed was positively correlated with upper anterior face height (UAFH)/total anterior face height (TAFH) and negatively with lower anterior face height (LAFH)/TAFH and LAFH (P < 0.05). CSA-clenched was correlated positively with SN-palatal, FH-palatal, UAFH/TAFH, and lower posterior face height (LPFH)/total posterior face height (TPFH) and negatively with LAFH/TAFH, LAFH, upper posterior face height (UPFH)/TPFH, and UPFH (P < 0.05). Bite force was positively correlated with LPFH/TPFH and negatively with UPFH/TPFH (P < 0.05). As the masseter became larger, the anterior maxillary region tended to shift downwards relative to the cranial base, whereas the posterior region tended to shift upwards. The decrease in LAFH/TAFH and increase in LPFH/TPFH as the size of the masseter muscle increases may be influenced not only by the inclination of the mandibular plane but also by the clockwise rotation of the maxilla.

These days I question whether counter-clockwise maxilla rotation is even beneficial, perhaps the palate can change it's angle independently of the maxilla or even counter to the rotation of the maxilla.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 6:35 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

The reason chewing makes the ramus longer is because a long ramus is better suited to handle the forces of chewing. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-24293-3

figure7

http://biomechanics.stanford.edu/me337_10/projects/pearson04.pdf

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/10454411000110010101

Ramus Length – Main Forum – Correction Methods – The Great Work ...

Ramus of a clencher, individual is a female.

 

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Posted : 03/05/2020 8:22 am
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

The reason chewing makes the ramus longer is because a long ramus is better suited to handle the forces of chewing. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-24293-3

figure7

http://biomechanics.stanford.edu/me337_10/projects/pearson04.pdf

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/10454411000110010101

Ramus Length – Main Forum – Correction Methods – The Great Work ...

Ramus of a clencher, individual is a female.

 

The problem is in theory it should make you look better, but look at this picture of a person with a high volume mass of masseters and medial pterygoids :

His tongue literally doesn't have enough space in the mouth anymore, it falls down through the chin causing turkey neck.

Here's more short-face :

How do we know chewing doesn't messthe face up eventually? I've had only negative experiences from focusing on masseter. Maybe people with very long-faces should chew, but personally I agree with what @EddieMoney covered in this forum about chewing in the temporalis/masseter thread.

 

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Posted : 03/05/2020 8:48 am
Thomas22
Estimable Member

@loliboly

 The Ramus comes down at an angle, so as it lengthens, your jaw will move forward.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 1:08 pm
Thomas22
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

 Look at bruxism, or teeth grinding, those patients are exerting a lot of force on their jaws, and you do see women who complain about the structural changes. It gives them a broader  jaw  and makes them look less feminine.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 1:10 pm
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @thomas22

@auxiliarus

 Look at bruxism, or teeth grinding, those patients are exerting a lot of force on their jaws, and you do see women who complain about the structural changes. It gives them a broader  jaw  and makes them look less feminine.

Right, I never said it wouldn't. However would it make one more aesthetic is the question? If you look at the short-face syndrome I posted it's not aesthetic at all.

 

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Posted : 03/05/2020 2:19 pm
Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

I think ramus thickness is affected by muscle mass but that length has to do with dental height. We tend to think of tipped in molars as being normal. I wonder if those with long ramuses have straighter molars. The greater dental height would require a longer bone. If the molars are not tipped in the Inter Molar Width would be greater and the tongue easily adopt a more forward position. By this the airway would be less obstructed by the tongue but more importantly wider just as everything in the area would be set wider.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 4:20 pm
Thomas22 liked
auxiliary
Reputable Member
Posted by: @odys

I think ramus thickness is affected by muscle mass but that length has to do with dental height. We tend to think of tipped in molars as being normal. I wonder if those with long ramuses have straighter molars. The greater dental height would require a longer bone. If the molars are not tipped in the Inter Molar Width would be greater and the tongue easily adopt a more forward position. By this the airway would be less obstructed by the tongue but more importantly wider just as everything in the area would be set wider.

The ramus doesn't have to be correlated with dental height, a long maxilla will also cause a long ramus as long as gonial angle is maintained.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 6:29 pm