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Question to EddieMoney and Achilles and other about midface  

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zz37
 zz37
Active Member

hey guys, so you guys both had some nice results with shortening midface.

I assume you guys had a recessed maxilla, rather than elongated maxilla.

Did you guys notice your midface get longer in the process before it started shortening?

Did you guys get good undereye support, so that there is no sclera showing anymore?

Is there anything specific that really helped you attain results? Hard mewing, chin tucking? Are there any signs that really tells if you are doing it right? Where exactly on your bones did you feel pressure?

Also how long did it take for you to see substantial results?

 

Thank you

 

Quote
Posted : 04/12/2018 2:21 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I would say my maxilla being recessed is what made it long to be honest. Because as the maxilla gets pulled down its vertical length increases. I feel like my maxillary height has decreased by a few millimeters myself. 

The effects were within a few months. I mewed by focusing on posterior tongue only at first. My tongue came behind the alveolar ridge and didn't even make contact with the palatine rugae.

My midface didn't get longer. My overall face did though. My face was more rounded when my mandible was tucked further back. Now my face is more oval I would say.

But yes my maxilla was quite elongated downward. Hopefully I can get sagittal growth to have a vertically short maxilla.

The pressure varies from the maxilla to the cheekbones. I did not do hard mewing in the beginning. Chin tuck with neck pulled back.  Undereye support and overall hooding increased. 

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Posted : 04/12/2018 3:03 pm
Achilles1
Trusted Member

If you are mewing correctly, I couldn't see how the midface would actually get longer, but it could maybe appear longer in relation to the mandible and forehead, since you're effectively changing the proportions of all your face. 

My under eye support is a lot better, but I still have small dark circles and a hollow under my left eye. The dramatic change has more so been the hooding of my eyes.

I hard mewed and chin tucked from day one, but I never stopped trying to improve on my technique. It's kinda like unlocking new levels in palate gains. I'll think my neck posture is good until my jaws swing up, and all of a sudden I can chin tuck even better. That's when I'll feel new recessed parts in my palate. It's a never ending process. 

Also, if I had not taken pictures every month, I would not even think I've made improvements, so keep that in mind. It's not going to "feel right" until you've made substantial palatal expansion imo. 

I first started feeling it in the bridge of my nose, but as my tongue strengthened, I feel it way more in my brow ridge, forehead, and behind my eyes. 

I wouldn't say that the substantial results started until 3-6 months in. But now I can wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and be like "huh, my cheekbones are higher than they were last week"

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Posted : 04/12/2018 5:06 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Hard mewing or mewing won't shorten the midface much, but posture correction will help a bit more. Visiting a cranial osteopath for manual therapy on the hard palate or learning how to thumb pull (which is hard) or face pulling mask with TADs anchorage, possibly other interventions, may help bring the maxilla to a better position, which is really the main contributor toward shortening the midface. Note the case reports and before afters of people who just mew or hard mew, the maxilla doesn't seem to budge or maybe it moves a little bit. The same happened to me when I either only mewed or hard mewed: very underwhelming results on the maxilla. Mewing alone, even with correct posture, will move the maxilla minimally and it may take years to see a small result there if you start with a narrow palate. Mewing will bring the cheekbones up and help correct things like sclera show, but this effect really pales in comparison to what bringing the maxilla in to better position does for the midface.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 05/12/2018 3:36 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Hard mewing or mewing won't shorten the midface much, but posture correction will help a bit more. Visiting a cranial osteopath for manual therapy on the hard palate or learning how to thumb pull (which is hard) or face pulling mask with TADs anchorage, possibly other interventions, may help bring the maxilla to a better position, which is really the main contributor toward shortening the midface. Note the case reports and before afters of people who just mew or hard mew, the maxilla doesn't seem to budge or maybe it moves a little bit. The same happened to me when I either only mewed or hard mewed: very underwhelming results on the maxilla. Mewing alone, even with correct posture, will move the maxilla minimally and it may take years to see a small result there if you start with a narrow palate. Mewing will bring the cheekbones up and help correct things like sclera show, but this effect really pales in comparison to what bringing the maxilla in to better position does for the midface.

How do you figure no maxillary movement happened? If oother effects like gonial angle lessening , chin prominence, and facial shortening happened, the maxilla did move upwards. It's not as if the maxilla was just left behind. 

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Posted : 05/12/2018 4:19 pm
Halti.H liked
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Hard mewing or mewing won't shorten the midface much, but posture correction will help a bit more. Visiting a cranial osteopath for manual therapy on the hard palate or learning how to thumb pull (which is hard) or face pulling mask with TADs anchorage, possibly other interventions, may help bring the maxilla to a better position, which is really the main contributor toward shortening the midface. Note the case reports and before afters of people who just mew or hard mew, the maxilla doesn't seem to budge or maybe it moves a little bit. The same happened to me when I either only mewed or hard mewed: very underwhelming results on the maxilla. Mewing alone, even with correct posture, will move the maxilla minimally and it may take years to see a small result there if you start with a narrow palate. Mewing will bring the cheekbones up and help correct things like sclera show, but this effect really pales in comparison to what bringing the maxilla in to better position does for the midface.

How do you figure no maxillary movement happened? If oother effects like gonial angle lessening , chin prominence, and facial shortening happened, the maxilla did move upwards. It's not as if the maxilla was just left behind. 

Chin prominence is a sign of maxillary upswing occurring, but it can also just be the mentalis muscle becoming stronger for whatever reason, you don't know until the maxilla actually swings up. Of course the maxilla is connected to other cranial bones, and your maxilla will move a little along with them. In my experience and observation of cases here and medical literature, it just doesn't move much with only mewing/palate expansion, though hard palate targeted manual therapy and certain palate-anchored methods are good adjuncts that do much more to better position the maxilla.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 05/12/2018 4:55 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Hard mewing or mewing won't shorten the midface much, but posture correction will help a bit more. Visiting a cranial osteopath for manual therapy on the hard palate or learning how to thumb pull (which is hard) or face pulling mask with TADs anchorage, possibly other interventions, may help bring the maxilla to a better position, which is really the main contributor toward shortening the midface. Note the case reports and before afters of people who just mew or hard mew, the maxilla doesn't seem to budge or maybe it moves a little bit. The same happened to me when I either only mewed or hard mewed: very underwhelming results on the maxilla. Mewing alone, even with correct posture, will move the maxilla minimally and it may take years to see a small result there if you start with a narrow palate. Mewing will bring the cheekbones up and help correct things like sclera show, but this effect really pales in comparison to what bringing the maxilla in to better position does for the midface.

How do you figure no maxillary movement happened? If oother effects like gonial angle lessening , chin prominence, and facial shortening happened, the maxilla did move upwards. It's not as if the maxilla was just left behind. 

Chin prominence is a sign of maxillary upswing occurring, but it can also just be the mentalis muscle becoming stronger for whatever reason, you don't know until the maxilla actually swings up. Of course the maxilla is connected to other cranial bones, and your maxilla will move a little along with them. In my experience and observation of cases here and medical literature, it just doesn't move much with only mewing/palate expansion, though hard palate targeted manual therapy and certain palate-anchored methods are good adjuncts that do much more to better position the maxilla.

But midface shortening has occurred in most successful mewing methods meaning that it's not like the appliance/direct manual work is necessary for all cases. I remember user @Yay who successfully shortened her midface quite well. 

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Posted : 05/12/2018 11:23 pm
Halti.H liked
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@Eddiemoney I'm not arguing that mewing with good posture won't shorten the midface, and already gave examples of how it noticeably can do this. But it won't help much in the key area of midface shortening: the maxilla. Yay brought to us a teeth anchored face pulling method using a baby chew toy necklace, I guess to procline the incisors like Plato's method, and to chew like gum. Her results from mewing and face pulling are good, and almost took my daughter's chewie to experiment with but chickened out.

ETA: I recall about 6 years ago when I first discovered Mewing, Dr. Mew went to some forums to ask for evidence of any adults that had brought their maxilla up and forwards. Later he began to explore adjunct therapies he deemed worth exploring to help bring the maxilla upwards and forwards in adults. Yet still after knowing Mew possesses no hard evidence for mewing being able to move the maxilla upwards and forwards in adults, I faithfully mewed only and never tried any adjunct method for 5 years. I even ceased my face exercise regime to be able to best know what was a Mewing result. In this time, my maxilla barely budged. I tried hard mewing for a few years, thinking surely more pressure would bring my maxilla more upwards and forwards? It didn't work. In the end, what 1.4cm of mewing palatal expansion over 5 years couldn't do for my maxilla, manual manipulation helped with in short order. Just my experience for what it's worth. There are some memes on this forum: hard mewing, mewing will noticeably bring my maxilla up and forwards, and I fell for them at one point too.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 06/12/2018 12:52 am
Halti.H
Active Member

Just because hard mewing hasn't worked for you, @Greensmoothies, doesn't mean that it won't work for others. It's pretty stupid to call hard mewing a meme and spread doubt when there are multiple people on this forum who have repored great changes in terms of maxilla movement from hard mewing. 

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Posted : 07/12/2018 4:19 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Halti.H

Just because hard mewing hasn't worked for you, @Greensmoothies, doesn't mean that it won't work for others. It's pretty stupid to call hard mewing a meme and spread doubt when there are multiple people on this forum who have repored great changes in terms of maxilla movement from hard mewing. 

Where are the reports of great changes in terms of maxilla movement from just hard mewing? Even Jamo face pulled, then how are we to tease apart the result? Mew himself doesn't even have evidence mewing (he doesn't speak about hard mewing) will move the maxilla up and forwards. He looks to adjunct therapies to help move the maxilla up and forwards with good reason: as someone who's expanded 1.4cm without trying anything besides Mewing, expansion did not do much here. I've yet to see or read anything contrary to my experience as well, and it's fine really, because mewing does worthwhile things despite not moving the maxilla much. And you're right, hard Mewing isn't a meme, it's worse than that, with the injury reports continuing to come in I feel relieved I just wasted my energy in the end. Now I get the "braces-like" pressure Jamo recommends after I levelled up my tongue strength. Just like Mew says, it's all to come from posture, tongue strength and suction hold. No need to think constantly about pressing my tongue.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 07/12/2018 11:37 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Halti.H

Just because hard mewing hasn't worked for you, @Greensmoothies, doesn't mean that it won't work for others. It's pretty stupid to call hard mewing a meme and spread doubt when there are multiple people on this forum who have repored great changes in terms of maxilla movement from hard mewing. 

Where are the reports of great changes in terms of maxilla movement from just hard mewing? Even Jamo face pulled, then how are we to tease apart the result? Mew himself doesn't even have evidence mewing (he doesn't speak about hard mewing) will move the maxilla up and forwards. He looks to adjunct therapies to help move the maxilla up and forwards with good reason: as someone who's expanded 1.4cm without trying anything besides Mewing, expansion did not do much here. I've yet to see or read anything contrary to my experience as well, and it's fine really, because mewing does worthwhile things despite not moving the maxilla much. And you're right, hard Mewing isn't a meme, it's worse than that, with the injury reports continuing to come in I feel relieved I just wasted my energy in the end. Now I get the "braces-like" pressure Jamo recommends after I levelled up my tongue strength. Just like Mew says, it's all to come from posture, tongue strength and suction hold. No need to think constantly about pressing my tongue.

It seems biased how you are willing to accept negative anecdotes regarding hard mewing, but readily disregard positive anecdotes from users like achilles1, test151515 and others.

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Posted : 07/12/2018 1:04 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Halti.H

Just because hard mewing hasn't worked for you, @Greensmoothies, doesn't mean that it won't work for others. It's pretty stupid to call hard mewing a meme and spread doubt when there are multiple people on this forum who have repored great changes in terms of maxilla movement from hard mewing. 

Where are the reports of great changes in terms of maxilla movement from just hard mewing? Even Jamo face pulled, then how are we to tease apart the result? Mew himself doesn't even have evidence mewing (he doesn't speak about hard mewing) will move the maxilla up and forwards. He looks to adjunct therapies to help move the maxilla up and forwards with good reason: as someone who's expanded 1.4cm without trying anything besides Mewing, expansion did not do much here. I've yet to see or read anything contrary to my experience as well, and it's fine really, because mewing does worthwhile things despite not moving the maxilla much. And you're right, hard Mewing isn't a meme, it's worse than that, with the injury reports continuing to come in I feel relieved I just wasted my energy in the end. Now I get the "braces-like" pressure Jamo recommends after I levelled up my tongue strength. Just like Mew says, it's all to come from posture, tongue strength and suction hold. No need to think constantly about pressing my tongue.

It seems biased how you are willing to accept negative anecdotes regarding hard mewing, but readily disregard positive anecdotes from users like achilles1, test151515 and others.

So then I will regard what I know. Achille's pictures show good mewing results despite pictures being hard to compare. At one point he thumb pulled and did it wrong by my judgement. Unfamiliar with test151515 to say anything. Here the FAGGA dentist (not sure of real name, sorry) posts in your thread making the same observation I did with myself and others who just mewed re: maxilla. You, me, others, we got great results regardless. But to move the maxilla beyond what little palate expansion can do there requires an osteopath or similar, possibly your own interventions (which can be hard to do) or dentistry interventions.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 07/12/2018 2:40 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Halti.H

Just because hard mewing hasn't worked for you, @Greensmoothies, doesn't mean that it won't work for others. It's pretty stupid to call hard mewing a meme and spread doubt when there are multiple people on this forum who have repored great changes in terms of maxilla movement from hard mewing. 

Where are the reports of great changes in terms of maxilla movement from just hard mewing? Even Jamo face pulled, then how are we to tease apart the result? Mew himself doesn't even have evidence mewing (he doesn't speak about hard mewing) will move the maxilla up and forwards. He looks to adjunct therapies to help move the maxilla up and forwards with good reason: as someone who's expanded 1.4cm without trying anything besides Mewing, expansion did not do much here. I've yet to see or read anything contrary to my experience as well, and it's fine really, because mewing does worthwhile things despite not moving the maxilla much. And you're right, hard Mewing isn't a meme, it's worse than that, with the injury reports continuing to come in I feel relieved I just wasted my energy in the end. Now I get the "braces-like" pressure Jamo recommends after I levelled up my tongue strength. Just like Mew says, it's all to come from posture, tongue strength and suction hold. No need to think constantly about pressing my tongue.

It seems biased how you are willing to accept negative anecdotes regarding hard mewing, but readily disregard positive anecdotes from users like achilles1, test151515 and others.

So then I will regard what I know. Achille's pictures show good mewing results despite pictures being hard to compare. At one point he thumb pulled and did it wrong by my judgement. Unfamiliar with test151515 to say anything. Here the FAGGA dentist (not sure of real name, sorry) posts in your thread making the same observation I did with myself and others who just mewed re: maxilla. You, me, others, we got great results regardless. But to move the maxilla beyond what palate expansion can do requires an osteopath or similar, possibly your own interventions (which can be hard to do) or dentistry interventions.

Are you saying that in your view my and achilles' changes are result of palatal expansion and nothing more? What does "moving" the maxilla mean anyway, when all maxillary movement is relative to the cranium? If the cranium assumes different shape and structure, then wouldn't the maxilla inevitably move in the process? The FAGGA dentist observes that my maxilla is underdeveloped. So I'm going to have to ask you to clarify: are you talking about maxillay growth or maxillary repositioning? 

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Posted : 07/12/2018 2:56 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@Progress, I mean position, and that mewing doesn't help much with that. The FAGGA dentist also observed lack of positional change as per the first sentence of the linked post. Yes, of course the maxilla moves with other cranial bones, so it helps at least a little. You can also move the maxilla directly, hence the use of protraction face masks used in dentistry and other interventions. That's the type of avenue I ended up pursuing for results to the position of my maxilla that palate expansion via mewing alone for 5 years couldn't deliver.

So my intent in making my first post was to simply state what works and doesn't work for midface shortening according to what I've observed, especially making note of the position of the maxilla since bringing it up and forwards is really the prized effect here, though it isn't easy. As for routines of others, I only know about what posts I have seen. Generally I assume everyone here at least does or tries Mewing.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 07/12/2018 3:34 pm
Achilles1
Trusted Member

@greensmoothies, so you're saying that if someone exclusively mewed and expanded their palate to the point where all their teeth were straight and in correct position (including wisdom teeth), they developed a perfect profile, and had a perfect mew indicator line, their maxilla didn't move?

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Posted : 07/12/2018 11:23 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Achilles1

@greensmoothies, so you're saying that if someone exclusively mewed and expanded their palate to the point where all their teeth were straight and in correct position (including wisdom teeth), they developed a perfect profile, and had a perfect mew indicator line, their maxilla didn't move?

How should I know? You don't say how much the mew indicator line (presumably) decreases.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 08/12/2018 1:56 am
Achilles1
Trusted Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Achilles1

@greensmoothies, so you're saying that if someone exclusively mewed and expanded their palate to the point where all their teeth were straight and in correct position (including wisdom teeth), they developed a perfect profile, and had a perfect mew indicator line, their maxilla didn't move?

How should I know? You don't say how much the mew indicator line (presumably) decreases.

I was being rhetorical. Of course the maxilla moved. This seems like such a ridiculous conversation. I don't care what some FAGGA dentist said (not a perfect appliance anyways), if you already had a wide palate like I did, you can use the tongue to expand and rotate the jaws. 

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Posted : 08/12/2018 2:12 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Achilles1
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Achilles1

@greensmoothies, so you're saying that if someone exclusively mewed and expanded their palate to the point where all their teeth were straight and in correct position (including wisdom teeth), they developed a perfect profile, and had a perfect mew indicator line, their maxilla didn't move?

How should I know? You don't say how much the mew indicator line (presumably) decreases.

I was being rhetorical. Of course the maxilla moved. This seems like such a ridiculous conversation. I don't care what some FAGGA dentist said (not a perfect appliance anyways), if you already had a wide palate like I did, you can use the tongue to expand and rotate the jaws. 

But you provided insufficient data to reach this conclusion...

Agreed it's ridiculous to discuss hypotheticals though, so let's talk real results. Several months back you attributed "great results so far in my maxilla" to thumb pulling. Would you say this result consisted of a forwards and upwards movement of your maxilla, just widening, or both?  https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/mandible-thumb-pulling/

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 08/12/2018 4:38 am
Achilles1
Trusted Member

@greensmoothies I ended up only thumb pulling for about a month I think, and stopped doing it in August. It caused movement forward and upwards because it loosened the sutures. For great results, you MUST loosen the sutures. I believe that this is the most important factor in rapid skeletal development in adults.

With that said, now I can open my sutures with the tongue alone (via hard mewing) and have no need to thumb pull. I'm able to get my face "buzzing" for 4-8 hrs a day; it feels amazing. It really doesn't matter how you get those sutures open as long as you do it. In fact thumb pulling would be great for someone with narrow palate who has trouble with the posterior tongue placement. 

 

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Posted : 08/12/2018 6:03 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Achilles1

@greensmoothies I ended up only thumb pulling for about a month I think, and stopped doing it in August. It caused movement forward and upwards because it loosened the sutures. For great results, you MUST loosen the sutures. I believe that this is the most important factor in rapid skeletal development in adults.

With that said, now I can open my sutures with the tongue alone (via hard mewing) and have no need to thumb pull. I'm able to get my face "buzzing" for 4-8 hrs a day; it feels amazing. It really doesn't matter how you get those sutures open as long as you do it. In fact thumb pulling would be great for someone with narrow palate who has trouble with the posterior tongue placement. 

 

I can see why you believe this if you only did the thumb palate massage as you mentioned in your thread I linked. Think of the thumb pulling as combining the RPE WITH the tads anchored face mask, or perhaps the cranial sacral therapist who both moves bones AND separates the midline suture.

If you have managed to maintain pliability of the midline suture all this time, and it sounds like you have, that is noteworthy. I'd also agree that making the midline suture pliable is very important, contributes significantly to results, and wish I realized this sooner. Such a waste all those years of hard mewing in comparison.

From my experience with making the midline suture pliable, once it reaches this state it's quite easy to open up, I once gently ran my finger along it and felt it open. So I'm inclined to believe the hard mewing isn't what's behind this effect, it just so happens to be how you're maintaining it. Thanks for sharing your result.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 08/12/2018 1:52 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Forgot to mention that the mechanics of palatal expansion alone would cause positive gains in midface shortening.

Widening the palate can increase interpupillary distance in and of itself. Combine this with a wider arch that allows the lower arch more room to protract and you have a lower midface ratio AND the strength of the lower third to middle third increasing in favor of lower third. All through palate expansion. 

Also, let's not forget that allowing the mandible room to protract essentially means that the teeth are proportionately further up into the face because of the lengthening of the lower third. This means that because the whole face essentially lessened that the maxilla is in a different position even if it didn't move much itself. But because the mandible is now further forward, the maxilla is proportionately more up to due to the gain in lower third height.  

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Posted : 12/12/2018 1:48 am
zz37
 zz37
Active Member

@EddieMoney , some time ago I came to the final conclusion that I have very well developed bones and an IMW of 39-40mm. 

My maxilla is just downswung. As simple as that. I dont have any other deficiency. So I am not actually looking to shortening my maxilla to achieve better midface ratio. I basically just need that upswing. 

I would think that upswing in a person with a downswung maxilla would be an easier process compared to those who actually need shortening and widening of their elongated maxilla (those gum smile). What do you think about that?

What are your best suggestions for getting upswing?

When i do a really proper chin tuck it creates pressure on my zygos right below the eye and also on my soft palate. Keep in mind, I get this strong pressure even if I relax my tongue at the bottom of my mouth.

I can mostly do this kind of chin tuck when laying down flat on my back on the bed, with no pillow. It forces my teeth together with some decent pressure.

Do you think if I kept doing this, it would create upswing? I am 19.

What other suggestions do you have for upswing?

 

Thank you

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Posted : 13/12/2018 4:36 pm