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Proper facial development, aesthetics and phenotype  

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Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

This past week I had the unique opportunity to work with 3 Egyptian men who had proper facial development. Their arches were wide, they had space for all of their teeth, and their palates were wide and flat. Some of them confirmed that they kept their tongue sticking to the roof of their mouth while others recounted tales of chewing on cane all day long while they were children.

The one other thing they all had in common was that they grew up in villages and that's about it. While they all had proper forward development of their faces each had very different appearance. One had a long face, the other had a wide face with a weak chin, and the last had a square face with impressive proportions. The last one was aesthetically the most impressive but funny enough he had the most extractions from tooth decay.

I wish I could have taken their pictures to share with you but I can summarize my observations as : even with proper facial development people are still going to look significantly different and there are going to be allot of variations in phenotype that will make some look less/more attractive.   

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

Quote
Posted : 09/05/2018 11:26 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

This past week I had the unique opportunity to work with 3 Egyptian men who had proper facial development. Their arches were wide, they had space for all of their teeth, and their palates were wide and flat. Some of them confirmed that they kept their tongue sticking to the roof of their mouth while others recounted tales of chewing on cane all day long while they were children.

The one other thing they all had in common was that they grew up in villages and that's about it. While they all had proper forward development of their faces each had very different appearance. One had a long face, the other had a wide face with a weak chin, and the last had a square face with impressive proportions. The last one was aesthetically the most impressive but funny enough he had the most extractions from tooth decay.

I wish I could have taken their pictures to share with you but I can summarize my observations as : even with proper facial development people are still going to look significantly different and there are going to be allot of variations in phenotype that will make some look less/more attractive.   

The thing is, tongue position and chewing aren't the only factor in facial development. It is true things like prenatal T exposure will determine how robust one is, but lifestyle will determine bone positioning. 

Of course I want to say that the idea that mewing can make someone look like a model is preposterous. But simply placing the tongue on the roof of the mouth and chewing won't be enough. The idea that all you need is a wide palate and room for your teeth is ridiculous. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/05/2018 11:34 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
 
The thing is, tongue position and chewing aren't the only factor in facial development. It is true things like prenatal T exposure will determine how robust one is, but lifestyle will determine bone positioning. 

Of course I want to say that the idea that mewing can make someone look like a model is preposterous. But simply placing the tongue on the roof of the mouth and chewing won't be enough. The idea that all you need is a wide palate and room for your teeth is ridiculous. 

Mewing for sure will improve your looks, but unfortunately allot of people confuse that with becoming very good, almost model like, looking. 

That being said the health benefits of mewing far exceed those of aesthetics. Having a fully open air way for example can't be overvalued.  

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/05/2018 5:33 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Also, teeth extractions only ruin faces when the gaps are closed and palates are narrowed because of it. Just simply pulling teeth won't really do anything since the palate itself hasn't changed and the rest of the teeth support the soft tissue 

As for me, I had extractions on my mandible which pisses me off because realistically not much can be done to reverse that and of course gaps were closed. 

I believe certain aspects of phenotype are unchangeable like:

Size of your skull

Robusticity/gracility (aka male vs female proportions though I feel mewing can make proportions more masculine if those were in your "default" non-CFD state)

And that is it basically. I used to think that things like profile quality were unchangeable but in myself I have seen the opposite. I also used to doubt how much wider the mandible can get but chewing results from people make me a believer that the mandible can be greatly improved. So I guess in that way at least the mandible can be made more robust but that by itself won't make super model looks. 

I also want to say that I never understood why the "cfd community" (if you will) has thought that having a wide palate will make one attractive. Concerning phenotype, I have a naturally narrow face despite a starting intermolar of 38mm.  Super prominent zygos and flanged faces aren't in my family anyway. I have always had enough room for my teeth in my mouth and I have also been considered unattractive by many women. For me the overly clockwise rotation of my maxilla had killed my facial aesthetics. I know plenty of guys with narrower palates who were better looking due to having a more counterclockwise rotated maxilla that allowed their mandible to sit properly with a low gonial angle. Thus their chin was stronger, face shorter, and smile less gummy. Palatal width and teeth fitting is a very small part of the equation. Due to my lifelong old person (forward head) posture, my maxilla was never positioned properly despite normal development.  

Like I said in the other threads, cfd is much more than palatal width and the dentition. Too many factors to consider.

I also notice that cfd manifests itself differently in the West vs. The developing world. In the West, cfd usually follows having a narrow palate and not enough room for teeth due to this. But in developing countries while the jaws are more developed the posture seems much worse. This is why in poorer countries you see higher incidences of weaker chins, longer faces, and forward head posture. I think nutrition has to play a role in this for certain. In the West people's posture seems better but the palatal width and dentition is worse.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/05/2018 7:49 am
voltaire
Active Member

https://www.livescience.com/55901-facial-features-genetics.html

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/05/2018 10:05 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

This pic shows that lifestyle and posture can override genetics. 

Girl on the right had palatal expansion. Her twin sister did not. Notice the girl on the right looks younger and dare I say far prettier. Lifestyle choices impact our face more than we think. Girl on the left looks far older and more like a typical adult woman than her more youthful sister.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/05/2018 11:14 pm
Couda
Eminent Member

Yeah, I dont believe all growth should be up and forwards, some people have naturally narrow faces.

I think ramus length(+ 1-2 cm) is a good indicator of how much vertical growth one should have. The jawline should be almost perpendicular to the ramus and one will find that his/her chin are some centimetres below that pseudo line. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2018 6:03 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Couda

Yeah, I dont believe all growth should be up and forwards, some people have naturally narrow faces.

I think ramus length(+ 1-2 cm) is a good indicator of how much vertical growth one should have. The jawline should be almost perpendicular to the ramus and one will find that his/her chin are some centimetres below that pseudo line. 

Yeah I think factors like prenatal T exposure will determine how robust the features naturally are and no amount of maxilla development will make one's face more robust if the bones were never formed that way. Bones have proper function but they also have a shape.

The same way some people's femur inserts in their hip socket for example is different than others. That is genetic . I don't know why face would be different. 

However some things like weak chins I don't believe are genetic . I don't think any form of CFD is passed down but rather is environmental. A narrow face may serve a purpose in terms of heat dissipation (people from warm climates have narrower faces) but a stretched out midface is CFD because it serves no genetic purpose and compresses the airway. Like even though my face is narrow still after mewing, my midface has become shorter while my lower third taller. So my face is still narrow but the proportions are for better function. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2018 3:37 pm
Couda
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

However some things like weak chins I don't believe are genetic . I don't think any form of CFD is passed down but rather is environmental. A narrow face may serve a purpose in terms of heat dissipation (people from warm climates have narrower faces) but a stretched out midface is CFD because it serves no genetic purpose and compresses the airway. Like even though my face is narrow still after mewing, my midface has become shorter while my lower third taller. So my face is still narrow but the proportions are for better function. 

 

You sure about that? Asians and africans have wide faces. Europeans would probably have just as wide as them if they had a harder diet. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2018 6:18 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

However some things like weak chins I don't believe are genetic . I don't think any form of CFD is passed down but rather is environmental. A narrow face may serve a purpose in terms of heat dissipation (people from warm climates have narrower faces) but a stretched out midface is CFD because it serves no genetic purpose and compresses the airway. Like even though my face is narrow still after mewing, my midface has become shorter while my lower third taller. So my face is still narrow but the proportions are for better function. 

 

Weak chins are a common trait in many populations. Asian Arabs have week chins while African Arabs have a decent chins. As mentioned one of the Egyptian men had a short wide face with a narrow gonial angle but a weak chin. He had class I malocclusion from what I could tell so no functional issues there. 

The main reason for this is the shape of the bone. I made this small illustration to highlight this point.

Note how both illustrations show good malocclusion but the one on the left has the pog point set back more which weakens the chin.

Ideally I would have liked to use cephalometric xrays to show different mandible shapes but I struggled to find any with this trait and with good malocclusion. Most were from European decent people with decent chins but when I did find one, guess what it was for a persian; common trait in the region. However, I could not use it because the doctor's name was engraved on the picture.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 1:01 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Couda
Posted by: EddieMoney

However some things like weak chins I don't believe are genetic . I don't think any form of CFD is passed down but rather is environmental. A narrow face may serve a purpose in terms of heat dissipation (people from warm climates have narrower faces) but a stretched out midface is CFD because it serves no genetic purpose and compresses the airway. Like even though my face is narrow still after mewing, my midface has become shorter while my lower third taller. So my face is still narrow but the proportions are for better function. 

 

You sure about that? Asians and africans have wide faces. Europeans would probably have just as wide as them if they had a harder diet. 

Ethiopia is full of narrow faces. What do you mean African?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 1:46 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: EddieMoney

However some things like weak chins I don't believe are genetic . I don't think any form of CFD is passed down but rather is environmental. A narrow face may serve a purpose in terms of heat dissipation (people from warm climates have narrower faces) but a stretched out midface is CFD because it serves no genetic purpose and compresses the airway. Like even though my face is narrow still after mewing, my midface has become shorter while my lower third taller. So my face is still narrow but the proportions are for better function. 

 

Weak chins are a common trait in many populations. Asian Arabs have week chins while African Arabs have a decent chins. As mentioned one of the Egyptian men had a short wide face with a narrow gonial angle but a weak chin. He had class I malocclusion from what I could tell so no functional issues there. 

The main reason for this is the shape of the bone. I made this small illustration to highlight this point.

Note how both illustrations show good malocclusion but the one on the left has the pog point set back more which weakens the chin.

Ideally I would have liked to use cephalometric xrays to show different mandible shapes but I struggled to find any with this trait and with good malocclusion. Most were from European decent people with decent chins but when I did find one, guess what it was for a persian; common trait in the region. However, I could not use it because the doctor's name was engraved on the picture.

I get the reason for weak chins, but that does not mean it is genetic. Certain populations have similar eating habits which all affect the shape of the mandible. 

It's like saying that because Europeans have narrow palates that it is genetic. Why are European narrow palates considered CFD but not weak chins of other cultures? CFD doesn't have to be limited to the West.

There is no genetic blueprint for the face. It is environment that determines how our face forms. For example children of immigrants have better bone development than their parents. Facial included 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 1:54 pm
Couda
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Ethiopia is full of narrow faces. What do you mean African?

Probably varies alot in Ethiopia but I do know Somalis have narrow faces. West africans have wide faces. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 2:26 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Couda
Posted by: EddieMoney

 

Ethiopia is full of narrow faces. What do you mean African?

Probably varies alot in Ethiopia but I do know Somalis have narrow faces. West africans have wide faces. 

Good point. So in this case it may lend more credence to it being environmental (diet related) than genetic. Like how East Africans have small jaws but West Africans have larger ones.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 2:35 pm
Couda
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Couda
Posted by: EddieMoney

 

Ethiopia is full of narrow faces. What do you mean African?

Probably varies alot in Ethiopia but I do know Somalis have narrow faces. West africans have wide faces. 

Good point. So in this case it may lend more credence to it being environmental (diet related) than genetic. Like how East Africans have small jaws but West Africans have larger ones.  

I still think Somalians have naturally more narrow faces. Nigeria seems to be much more developed than Somalia but Nigerians still have wider faces.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/nigeria/somalia

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 2:49 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Couda
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Couda
Posted by: EddieMoney

 

Ethiopia is full of narrow faces. What do you mean African?

Probably varies alot in Ethiopia but I do know Somalis have narrow faces. West africans have wide faces. 

Good point. So in this case it may lend more credence to it being environmental (diet related) than genetic. Like how East Africans have small jaws but West Africans have larger ones.  

I still think Somalians have naturally more narrow faces. Nigeria seems to be much more developed than Somalia but Nigerians still have wider faces.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/nigeria/somalia

It isn't just economy. The style of diet (food types) would also factor in 

Kind of like European countries are developed but the jaws are small and the palates narrow (like I keep saying lol)

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 3:38 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
 
I get the reason for weak chins, but that does not mean it is genetic. Certain populations have similar eating habits which all affect the shape of the mandible. 

It's like saying that because Europeans have narrow palates that it is genetic. Why are European narrow palates considered CFD but not weak chins of other cultures? CFD doesn't have to be limited to the West.

There is no genetic blueprint for the face. It is environment that determines how our face forms. For example children of immigrants have better bone development than their parents. Facial included 

 

Of course there is genetics involved in the face otherwise why would children grow with many identical facial features to their parents and relatives even when adopted and raised from birth in a different part of the world.

As for a narrow palate, it's not natural, not so far it causes teeth crowding, blocked tongue and narrow airway. A week chin has no functional consequence, it's just usually associated with class II malocclusion but not specific to it. 

 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 10:23 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: EddieMoney
 
I get the reason for weak chins, but that does not mean it is genetic. Certain populations have similar eating habits which all affect the shape of the mandible. 

It's like saying that because Europeans have narrow palates that it is genetic. Why are European narrow palates considered CFD but not weak chins of other cultures? CFD doesn't have to be limited to the West.

There is no genetic blueprint for the face. It is environment that determines how our face forms. For example children of immigrants have better bone development than their parents. Facial included 

 

Of course there is genetics involved in the face otherwise why would children grow with many identical facial features to their parents and relatives even when adopted and raised from birth in a different part of the world.

As for a narrow palate, it's not natural, not so far it causes teeth crowding, blocked tongue and narrow airway. A week chin has no functional consequence, it's just usually associated with class II malocclusion but not specific to it. 

 

Do you have examples of these populations with weak chins? 

The reason I say weak chins are not helpful is because they are usually associated with a face that grew downwards which means the mandible is facing down so the soft tissue around it doesn't create a mentolabial fold. A chin is mostly about soft tissue positioning rather than the projection of the bone itself. If a face grows vertically shorter, the chin pokes out more. Simply rotating a mandible counterclockwise would strengthen the chin.

Airway issues are also associated with weak chins the same way they are with narrow palates. Matter of fact many weak chinned people develop forward head posture because their airway is small to begin with 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2018 6:46 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Do you have examples of these populations with weak chins? 

The reason I say weak chins are not helpful is because they are usually associated with a face that grew downwards which means the mandible is facing down so the soft tissue around it doesn't create a mentolabial fold. A chin is mostly about soft tissue positioning rather than the projection of the bone itself. If a face grows vertically shorter, the chin pokes out more. Simply rotating a mandible counterclockwise would strengthen the chin.

Airway issues are also associated with weak chins the same way they are with narrow palates. Matter of fact many weak chinned people develop forward head posture because their airway is small to begin with 

I am going to ask the one guy I mentioned with fully developed face but weak chin to provide a profile picture.

 

Do you have a picture illustrating what you consider weak vs strong chin?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2018 7:32 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQk-kL_k0HRsx_LyCePek7a6zfGK3dqzLxFIEx1HqWXLeB837Gx

I think the above is a good example. Now my guess is since this was probably a genioplasty that the face appears longer in the after pic due to no posture issues being addressed. 

Personally the reason I don't believe weak chins are genetic is because as I have improved my posture my chin has become more prominent. I haven't even been doing chewing the way others have. Mostly just tongue and body posture. But as my mandible has had more space to come forward, my chin projects more and more simply because the tissue around it is bending more. 

My mother and aunt (sisters) both have weak chins. Their brother (my uncle) does not. He grew up playing sports. My aunt has the weakest chin while my mom just has it weak due to bad posture. My uncle being the athlete has the best posture so his chin is more developed and his face is the shortest.

Now my mom and aunt didn't have weak chins when they were in theft late teens and early 20s. Matter of fact my mom resembled Italian actress Monica Guerritore who has great facial development. My aunt resembled Anne Hathaway. They *had* great facial development but lifestyle took a toll on their posture (they also don't keep active that much except my mom until recently). My uncle on the other hand stayed active which I assume is what helped him maintain good posture. His sisters had great facial development but if you saw them you would assume they were born with weak chins.

Me personally (judging by my mother) I always thought weak chins ran in my family. But when I saw young pics of my relatives I realized it wasn't the case. But you know what does run in my family? Bad posture. My uncle is the freak because he stays active into his middle age. So his facial development makes him look like neither of his parents who have horrible posture and bone degeneration. But when his father (my gramps) got married and I later saw the wedding pics, I saw great face development similar to Mt uncle. Well my gramps was a high ranking military guy who then went to work for the president but the long hours and stressful life got to him. My grandmother also worked 12 hour days because she was a workaholic. 

Both were very good looking in their youth. Same with my mom and aunt. But now their life has taken a toll so their bones followed. 

As I have fixed my posture my chin has magically gotten stronger. It wasn't in my genes after all but if you saw my relatives you would think it was. I used to chalk it up to our Mediterranean ancestry but pics of my great grandfather who was very robust in the face proved that wrong, too . But I adopted the same habits of my family so I developed the same CFD . Now as I fix it i am resembling my uncle more and my grandfather in his younger days .

And get this. Most if not all of us have wide palates with ideal occlusions due to the fact we have generationally eaten lots of hard foods like nuts and chewy foods like various meats. Yet our posture wasn't right so we developed weak chins. 

I gotta be honest and say I have never seen entire ethnic groups with weak chins. Small jaws is one thing. That is something common in many ethnic groups. But weak chins as a rule for an ethnic group I have yet to see. Humans with ideal development may not have the same contour to their profiles, but we all have chin development if our face grows normally. Now one of the reasons some Europeans *appear* to have stronger chins especially the further North you go is due to the lack of lip girth which is seen in colder climates. But that is a soft tissue positioning aspect just the same. Mediterranean peoples having fuller lips and smaller jaws (thus flatter profiles) will have their chin set back behind their brow in the Frankfurt plane but that is an issue of mandible size and not improper jaw function.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2018 9:39 am
Couda
Eminent Member

@EddieMoney

Do you keep your teeth together & McKenzie chin tuck when sleeping?

 

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Posted : 17/05/2018 12:33 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Couda

@EddieMoney

Do you keep your teeth together & McKenzie chin tuck when sleeping?

 

Always 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2018 12:57 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

I understand what you are trying to explain. Yes, most people have hanging chins and they can improve when the mandible a) moves forward to close over jet and b) rotates upward along with maxilla moving forward and upward. But even with those two thing in check the chin can still be weak because that is just the shape of the mandible. I am trying to find a picture that has all those conditions to illustrate this, but its not easy. 

Take a look at those two anatomy pictures. Note how each mandible has a different chin with bottom one extending well beyond the teeth. This is completely normal phenotypical difference regardless of mandible position (poor posture and malocclusion).

Both can be from a perfectly gown face with perfect occlusion, just imagine one (the top) comes from an Asian Arab and the other (the bottom) comes from an Englishman.

One last note, there is defiantly no "entire" race with one exact phenotype as every race has so much mixing.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2018 2:16 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

I understand what you are trying to explain. Yes, most people have hanging chins and they can improve when the mandible a) moves forward to close over jet and b) rotates upward along with maxilla moving forward and upward. But even with those two thing in check the chin can still be weak because that is just the shape of the mandible. I am trying to find a picture that has all those conditions to illustrate this, but its not easy. 

Take a look at those two anatomy pictures. Note how each mandible has a different chin with bottom one extending well beyond the teeth. This is completely normal phenotypical difference regardless of mandible position (poor posture and malocclusion).

Both can be from a perfectly gown face with perfect occlusion, just imagine one (the top) comes from an Asian Arab and the other (the bottom) comes from an Englishman.

One last note, there is defiantly no "entire" race with one exact phenotype as every race has so much mixing.

That I get. But a small chin and a weak chin are too different things. Large chinned people can have it many times from prenatal T exposure or in a Quentin Tarantino type case a recessed maxilla that tips lower teeth away from the edge of the mandible. I don't necessarily know if English people have some abnormally large chin projection , though. Especially since many English people can and do have actual weak chins from CFD. I would say a chin like the one you think is 1)probably present in more robust males (or females with robust faces) and 2)more emphasized by having smaller lips (but not necessarily larger through bone shape). Like I said earlier, Northern Europeans through cold climate adaptation develop thin lips and this creates an *illusion* that their chin projects more. When skulls of different "races" (White/Black/Asian) are compared, chin projection is identical. All I am saying is that chin projection across the same sex is very similar in all races unless the people in question are abnormally robust. The whole notion that Europeans have stronger chins due to bone is just a myth. Google skull shape differences and the chin projection ironically is  varies least. No, the reason many Europeans only *appear* to have stronger chins is due to them having vertically shorter faces so the soft tissue wraps around it in a more projecting fashion. Actually if you look at skull shape differences across races, European jaws are actually the LEAST developed in terms of size (European diets are soft) and the chin projection is identical. Really this is a positioning issue more than anything. See below:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTwvqbSdRWLY6Qq1FT7m791XSazw9Xmd3eFseS5-Ta4BWn61zHn

Btw can you show me pics of these Asian Arabs or at least where they are located? Do you mean West Asian like Levantine? I don't notice weak chins on many Arabs to be honest. 

Now from my own X rays my chin is like the second one but because of position it has a weak projection. Mewing has helped though.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2018 3:41 pm
Tast
 Tast
Active Member

Posted by: EddieMoney

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQk-kL_k0HRsx_LyCePek7a6zfGK3dqzLxFIEx1HqWXLeB837Gx

I think the above is a good example. Now my guess is since this was probably a genioplasty that the face appears longer in the after pic due to no posture issues being addressed. 

Personally the reason I don't believe weak chins are genetic is because as I have improved my posture my chin has become more prominent. I haven't even been doing chewing the way others have. Mostly just tongue and body posture. But as my mandible has had more space to come forward, my chin projects more and more simply because the tissue around it is bending more. 

My mother and aunt (sisters) both have weak chins. Their brother (my uncle) does not. He grew up playing sports. My aunt has the weakest chin while my mom just has it weak due to bad posture. My uncle being the athlete has the best posture so his chin is more developed and his face is the shortest.

Now my mom and aunt didn't have weak chins when they were in theft late teens and early 20s. Matter of fact my mom resembled Italian actress Monica Guerritore who has great facial development. My aunt resembled Anne Hathaway. They *had* great facial development but lifestyle took a toll on their posture (they also don't keep active that much except my mom until recently). My uncle on the other hand stayed active which I assume is what helped him maintain good posture. His sisters had great facial development but if you saw them you would assume they were born with weak chins.

Me personally (judging by my mother) I always thought weak chins ran in my family. But when I saw young pics of my relatives I realized it wasn't the case. But you know what does run in my family? Bad posture. My uncle is the freak because he stays active into his middle age. So his facial development makes him look like neither of his parents who have horrible posture and bone degeneration. But when his father (my gramps) got married and I later saw the wedding pics, I saw great face development similar to Mt uncle. Well my gramps was a high ranking military guy who then went to work for the president but the long hours and stressful life got to him. My grandmother also worked 12 hour days because she was a workaholic. 

Both were very good looking in their youth. Same with my mom and aunt. But now their life has taken a toll so their bones followed. 

As I have fixed my posture my chin has magically gotten stronger. It wasn't in my genes after all but if you saw my relatives you would think it was. I used to chalk it up to our Mediterranean ancestry but pics of my great grandfather who was very robust in the face proved that wrong, too . But I adopted the same habits of my family so I developed the same CFD . Now as I fix it i am resembling my uncle more and my grandfather in his younger days .

And get this. Most if not all of us have wide palates with ideal occlusions due to the fact we have generationally eaten lots of hard foods like nuts and chewy foods like various meats. Yet our posture wasn't right so we developed weak chins. 

I gotta be honest and say I have never seen entire ethnic groups with weak chins. Small jaws is one thing. That is something common in many ethnic groups. But weak chins as a rule for an ethnic group I have yet to see. Humans with ideal development may not have the same contour to their profiles, but we all have chin development if our face grows normally. Now one of the reasons some Europeans *appear* to have stronger chins especially the further North you go is due to the lack of lip girth which is seen in colder climates. But that is a soft tissue positioning aspect just the same. Mediterranean peoples having fuller lips and smaller jaws (thus flatter profiles) will have their chin set back behind their brow in the Frankfurt plane but that is an issue of mandible size and not improper jaw function.  

Why do you not belive we can increase our skull size my skull long enougfh but i ned to widen my head so you think i cant widen side of the skull

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/05/2018 6:50 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Btw can you show me pics of these Asian Arabs or at least where they are located? Do you mean West Asian like Levantine? I don't notice weak chins on many Arabs to be honest. 

Yes, Asian Arabs are in the South West part of Asia comprising Yemen, the Arabic peninsula, Iraq, and of course the Levant.

This above average looking actor from Syria has many typical features of the area including the facial proportions and the lips, but his development is above average. However, note his weak chin.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 23/05/2018 4:25 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I don't know if his chin projection is universal. I live in an area with many Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese myself. Don't notice particularly weak chins. What I notice in many Mediterranean populations (including Europeans) is the presence of more pouty lips. This is seen in Spain all the way to Palestine and is more a feature of warm climates. This may give the illusion of a weak chin as I said above. I don't think the bone itself is less projecting.

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Posted : 23/05/2018 1:26 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: Couda

@EddieMoney

Do you keep your teeth together & McKenzie chin tuck when sleeping?

 

Always 

@EddieMoney

 

did you used to use the teeth in contact mewing tactic? If so what made you change it to teeth apart?

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Posted : 26/01/2020 10:52 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@harrykanemaxilla

I discovered that when I tried to engage my posterior third and soft palate that my mandible would come down a bit and the teeth would be apart. But I felt more pressure this way. Also, my ortho didn't resolve my class 3 issue, he just took two premolars from my mandible away. So he created a false Class 2 overbite but with a class 3 molar relationship still present. 

I believe my mandible just goes to the most comfortable place in the condyle when I keep my teeth apart. It doesn't even go into underbite though I assume that's only because my two lower premolars are gone. If they were still there I wouldn't be able to keep my teeth together properly anyway since I would have had an underbite and my wisdom teeth have never been able to make contact, ever. So the whole "keep molars together" advice can't physically apply to me anyway. It is literally impossible for me to touch molars properly. Some never touch (wisdom) and the two front lower ones sit ahead of the front upper ones. So whether I keep my teeth apart or together my molars won't really make contact properly. If I keep my teeth together only my incisors and canines can make contact. 

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Posted : 26/01/2020 12:58 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

These pics all show the various level of bone development by different ethnic groups. In all comparisons it seems Europeans have the most bone development in the face (I mean on average not all the time). The Europeam face seems to grow down, out, and even forward away from the face (driven by the nasal bones) compared to other ethnic groups.

Also, in comparisons between just Europeans, a North to South gradient of bone mass seems to occur. Facially, Northern Europeans appear to have a more projecting and overall more grown lower face compared to Southern Europeans. Southern Europeans tend to have shorter lower faces (I see this in Italians a lot) where Northern Europeans have "tall faces".

Similarly, topically adapted West Africans have very little bone growth in the face, and their face stays very neotenous and "puffy" looking into old age. The African skull seems to grow the least bony projection out of all ethnic groups. Weakest brow, small nasal bones, shortest overall facial height and skull height, and near absent chin projection. The African skull is also narrower than the rest, but its short maxillary height and short midface balance it out.

Yet it seems African bones are the most dense while European bones most susceptible to breakage. It's almost as if the European skeleton grows away from itself and thus loses density instead of being tightly packed.

I wonder how much of this is environmental vs genetic? Why do Northern Europeans have more bony faces compared to other people? 

Elizabeth Olsen (the non twin Olsen sister) seen above has a typical side profile seen in many Nordic women. Sloping forehead and very developed upper and lower jaws that grew away from the face. The heavy bone development is seen even in women. Mediterranean women don't have profiles like this, as their facial bones don't grow as much.

A good Northern vs Southern comparison. Notice the shorter and less bony face of Marisa Tomei (brunette) vs Julianne Moore (redhead). Moore's face grew in all directions a few more millimeters of bone than Tomei, and her phenotype, while still European looks much different, even aside from coloring differences. This is one of the differences between the "Latin look" and the Nordic one, where the Latin look is softer. This is probably why they used to regard Mediterranean people as a different "race" than Nordics. 

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Posted : 26/01/2020 1:20 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@EddieMoney

 

what do you think of thumb pulling?

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Posted : 26/01/2020 4:39 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@EddieMoney

 

what do you think of thumb pulling?

Never tried it and don't think much of it

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Posted : 08/03/2020 12:32 am
Arnwald
New Member

@EddieMoney

When in chin tuck you recommend pushing Adam's apple with chin and bringing back the neck, rotating thus the skull downwards and feeling some tension on the occipital area?

And would you recommend stretching "frontal" neck mucles like sternocleidomastoid and scalene? I don't know which areas should I stretch and which ones kind of work out. I know it's not a natural behaviour but may be needed to reverse a non-natural skull shape and all those bad habit years.

 

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Posted : 21/03/2020 10:48 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @arnwald

@EddieMoney

When in chin tuck you recommend pushing Adam's apple with chin and bringing back the neck, rotating thus the skull downwards and feeling some tension on the occipital area?

And would you recommend stretching "frontal" neck mucles like sternocleidomastoid and scalene? I don't know which areas should I stretch and which ones kind of work out. I know it's not a natural behaviour but may be needed to reverse a non-natural skull shape and all those bad habit years.

 

For me it's more like you described in the first paragraph.

And as far as stretching, I don't think stretching will help position your body necessarily. It's all about setting daily habits that improve your posture, which will activate muscles more to help shift bones to their proper position. But this is just my take. 

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Posted : 21/03/2020 11:47 am
Arnwald liked
TheBeastPanda
Trusted Member

@eddiemoney Bro I have big lips and a weak chin. Is there anything I can do about this, like my chin is really week. But odly my jaw isn't recessed, infact I have a very strong jaw but my chin is recessed im in my young teens btw, is there anything I can do.

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Posted : 09/10/2020 7:11 pm
TheBeastPanda
Trusted Member

@eddiemoney what do you think of bonesmashing. And I'm have an african phenotype and my face is not that bony. I have a very weak chin and brow. What can I do.

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Posted : 09/10/2020 7:14 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@thebeastpanda

 

CCW maxilla and mandible rotation should help. Aswell as palate expansion with lower teeth retroclining. Should allow the lower jaw to slide forward making the chin stronger. However genes also play a role because chin size is genetic but your beat genetic potential is both jaws CCW rotated and wide palates.

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Posted : 09/10/2020 7:15 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@thebeastpanda

The lack of brow ridge and bony face is from genes and hormones. I wouldn’t recommend bone smashing your brow ridge as that could damage your brain. Bone smashing your chin probably isnt the best idea aswell. Bonesmashing is risky and some claim the ‘hypertrophy’ is temporary swelling from bone damage lasting a few weeks.

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Posted : 09/10/2020 7:19 pm
TheBeastPanda
Trusted Member

@harrykanemaxilla what is ccw rotation and maxila rotation. And how can I achieve this. U said lacky of bony face is from hormones like what? How can I get a more bony face. How can I get more prominent zygos then. Love the pfp and username. I have also noticed Harry Kane has a sterotypical mouthbreather face. LOL. Are you a spurs fan?

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Posted : 10/10/2020 1:19 pm
TheBeastPanda
Trusted Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@thebeastpanda

 

CCW maxilla and mandible rotation should help. Aswell as palate expansion with lower teeth retroclining. Should allow the lower jaw to slide forward making the chin stronger. However genes also play a role because chin size is genetic but your beat genetic potential is both jaws CCW rotated and wide palates.

Explain by "Aswell as palata expansion with lower teeth retroclining", I'm confused by this.

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Posted : 10/10/2020 1:22 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@thebeastpanda

 

CCW rotation is where the front of the maxilla moves up and forward and the back of the maxilla moves down. This shortens the midface, lenghtens the ramus, lowers the gonial angle and shortens the nose. This makes the maxilla give the forward grown appearance. 

Testosterone is the male hormone that gives your skull a more bony appearance and makes you a man. Due to our modern lifestyle it is likely you dont have enough (like me). To raise testosterone you should lift weights, reduce sugar, sleep well, consume cholesterol and saturated fat from food. That will make your body optimise the amount of testosterone it is producing. 

To get more prominent zygos is partly genetic but not fully. My dad has prominent zygos but I don’t. To get prominent zygos you need a forward grown, CCW maxilla and wide palate. The maxilla moving forward brings the zygos forward increasing eye support. The CCW rotation makes the zygos more compact. The palatal expansion widens the zygos making them broader.

A narrow palate is causes by lack of prenatal nutrition combined with poor tongue posture. An example of a narrow palate is:

 

An example of a wide palate is:

 When the jaws are wide and forward grown there is room for all the teeth including the wisdoms. Teeth try their best to fit in the mouth no matter the palate size. When a palate is narrow what usually happens is the wisdom teeth do not erupt to make extra room. The next adaptation is that the teeth are forced to be crooked to fit. Orthodontists straighten the teeth by removing the premolars to make the extra space which is bad for health. Another way is to push the lower teeth forward to allow more space for the back teeth. This pushing forward (proclining) of the teeth means that the lower jaws bite is pushed back making the mandible sit further behind (overbite) and making the chin look weaker.

An example of pushed forward lower teeth by the orthodontist is:

If you look closely the lower teeth have been pushed forward but this makes the mandible bone get pushed back.

 

Also I am a Spurs fan.

 

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Posted : 10/10/2020 6:21 pm
TheBeastPanda
Trusted Member

@harrykanemaxilla Thank you, thank you, thank you for the detailed reply. Bro I was ecstatic when Spurs thrashed Man U the other day. Son and Kane are on fire. Can't wait to see Bale fully fit in the squad. If CCW rotation of the maxila gives this then how can I achieve CCW rotation of the maxila. Are Wide or narrow zygos preferred? So testosterone can give me a prominent browridge and chin or no? Also how I acheive get a positive canthal tilt and vertically compact eyes and more deep set eyes. I have a pretty strong jaw (altough I would like to improve it) but I have big lips and a small chin messing up the front of my lower third. How can I fix this? Also how can I get a bigger mandible? Im 14 so how long will it take if I do it consistently to get good results? How can I get a slightly postive canthal tilt? Also do you have discord, I would appreciate if you could get it? Do you have snapchat or instagram? I'm most active on discord though.

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Posted : 10/10/2020 11:23 pm
TheBeastPanda
Trusted Member

@harrykanemaxilla I also have crowding on my lower incisors? How can I make more room or them? I also have a overjet so how can I fix this and a narrow palate in general? So CCW and wide palate gives prominent zygos? And how can I get a more protuding browridge then?

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Posted : 10/10/2020 11:25 pm
cliffbars
Eminent Member

@harrykanemaxilla haha firmino 🤣 

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Posted : 17/12/2020 12:16 pm
cliffbars
Eminent Member

@harrykanemaxilla mate does your nose ever make you offside? (just some friendly banter 😆 )

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Posted : 17/12/2020 12:27 pm
TheBeastPanda
Trusted Member

@cliffbars lmao XD

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Posted : 11/01/2021 12:09 pm