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Possibly new "holy grail" for moving the maxilla up and forwards? [MSE + Facemask Therapy]  

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GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Fknasymetries

I just want to point out something. Most aesthetic changes come from muscle atrophy/hypertrophy. Having strong masseters gives the impression of a lower gonial angle, look at that "facehacking" dude for exemple. Don't get me wrong, i am not minimizing the transformations some guys may have had, i just want to point out that peoples underestimate the importance of muscle and overestimate how much changes you get from only moving facial bones.

 

The thing is, when your jaws are too far back, you can't recruit your masseter muscle correctly. You get little to no masseter hypertrophy and quite a lot of temporal muscle hypetrophy, giving the impression of having a weaker jaw than it really is. Getting just a few millimeters of bone growth can greatly affect how you recruit your muscle and their shape, by shape i mean how they will look once you developp them.

 

I would compare chewing to squating, chewing is "oppening your mouth and closing it" squatting is "going down and up again" (be carrefull with your back posture). But there are small subtilitys in how you do these 2 movements that completly change which muscle you engage more. When squatting, if hip flexion is superior to knee flexion (i hope that's correctly translated from french it's a bit late i am getting tired so forgive me for eventual language/grammar mistakes) your butt works harder than your quadriceps, same principle seems to apply to chewing. When your jaws are correctly grown, you bite more forward and it engages  your masseters more than your temporals.

 

Now i am asking you guys, why do peoples need MSE? because of improper oral and body posture. That means they had bad habits leading to weak muscles and probably still have them. I don't personally know these patients, but my guess is that they went to their ortho, complained about airway, ortho told them "this appliance can help you", then they went for the treatment, and at the end "thank you i can breathe better now, goodbye" and it all ends here. Tell me if i am wrong, but i believe that you can't really hold a proper tongue posture with this device in your mouth right? I also believe that once you put this thing in your mouth, your first thought won't be "i need to chew hard gum and heavily right now" unless you are educated to all this stuff. Patients can maybe change their diet for harder food? Lol why would they? Peoples don't even want to change their diet when they need to lose weight so why on earth would they suddenly go for eating more Raw vegetables, apples etc?  Tbh, all that doesn't really matter because... Why would they teach you proper tongue posture to beginn with? Tongue posture is crucial for FAGGA or ALF but is it for MSE? The device litterally mechanically expands your palate and the FM pulls your maxilla up and forward instead of your tongue (and you can't mew with this anyways, even if you wanted too).

 

This explains why changes aren't so drastic. I am not saying that you will look like a model if you undergo this treatment or that you should undergo it for aesthetic reasons, i am just saying that MSE can play an important role in what you guys are trying to achieve, not that it will do all the work for you. Varbrah who is educated to all this stuff scored higher on the "changes visibility scale" than other patients, it might just be a coincidence but now i am suddenly thinking of Ronald ead who seems to have got better results than other Fagga patients did and when you read his blog, you can see how hard he worked to change neck posture, have proper tongue posture and how much he chewed for developping his masseters, leading to massive improvements in his sideprofile.

Posture is everything. If you have bad posture, it will retract your face if it’s bad enough.  Having a posterior pelvic tilt for the lssst 4-7 years has really retruded me some face wise, at least a few mm. I suppose that when I relax all of my muscles by moving my pelvis back into proper alignment,  my mandible and other bones can rotate back to optimal positioning since muscles move bone and this happens all of the time with ones stature. I can literally feel like the muscles around my entire neck and even around my face have tightened significantly and this has definitely set things back without a doubt.... I can definitely notice this both aesthetically abd physiologically (breathing)

Thanks to some mentions on here, I have seen @SUGR2 actually cover this topic a bit and he has confirmed what I’m saying here about cranial changes to expect after correcting your body posture 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/06/2019 8:51 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

This is risky and life changing so maximum caution is warranted. I was almost ready to go with MSE+FM method, but now am much more cautious after UCLANewbie laid out points while it is not "miracle" procedure like many of us here hoped it to be (including me).

I am glad to read this. I personally have been researching FAGGA for over a year just to answer weather it works for me. In absence of enough information people really should research allot and question things.

Posted by: GoTTi

UCLA goes by the text book way too much IMO,  which obviously suits people like yourself and several others on this thread and in this group. However, people like Mike Mew are starting to move away from it from what I have gathered & understand. As a result? Many changes that were thought to be “impossible” are now becoming possible, some of them being FREE of charge (mewing) which can evidently put a dent in corporate pockets. 

UCLAnewbie would be considered on the alternative spectrum in the academic debate, because treating adults with MSE is considered alternative. He is just pointing out the limitations of the system. 

Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

One thing I hate about forums like reddit is you get banned or downvoted aas soon asa you post something going against the narrative, even if it is delusional.

lol! i just had this happen to me yesterday. Some guy posted a doctored before and after comparison and my comments were down voted for pointing that out.

Posted by: Roflcopters

The guy suggested a genioplasty and extractions to an 18 years old kid on some other topic. Lol. I mean.. It's a suggestion and it's valid but he's 18. 

I mean cmon. I'm not an expert, most surely he also isn't. 

Actually this is a very common procedure in Korea where he is from. Even @sugr2 recognizes that there is no way around extracting teeth if you want to reduce a very wide mentolabial angle and narrow nasolabial angle. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 1:41 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Fknasymetries

I just want to point out something. Most aesthetic changes come from muscle atrophy/hypertrophy. Having strong masseters gives the impression of a lower gonial angle, look at that "facehacking" dude for exemple. Don't get me wrong, i am not minimizing the transformations some guys may have had, i just want to point out that peoples underestimate the importance of muscle and overestimate how much changes you get from only moving facial bones.

You my friend take the cake! I have been wanting to make a post about this because this is such an important and over looked topic.

A beautiful ogee curve is not just wide zygomatic arches but also narrow cheek muscles. Myofunctional patients show this effect. Their facial muscles dystrophy after treatment and suddenly their faces look wider. One of the most prominent examples I have seen is none other than Sarah Hornsby. Her before and after myofunctional therapy transformation is quite impressive. Her face looks wider and more angular even though she gained weight in the after. 

By the way what is the example of facehacking dude? 

The rest of your post is great but I just want to point out something. Not to detract from your general argument but Ronald Ead kind of failed in his FAGGA treatment. The other thing, he does not chew hard gum or anything just meat. His doctor warned him against that because of cracks in his teeth.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 1:56 am
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Fknasymetries

I just want to point out something. Most aesthetic changes come from muscle atrophy/hypertrophy. Having strong masseters gives the impression of a lower gonial angle, look at that "facehacking" dude for exemple. Don't get me wrong, i am not minimizing the transformations some guys may have had, i just want to point out that peoples underestimate the importance of muscle and overestimate how much changes you get from only moving facial bones.

You my friend take the cake! I have been wanting to make apost about this because this is such an important and over looked topic.

A beautiful ogee curve is not just wide zygomatic arches but also narrow cheek muscles. Myofunctional patients show this effect. Their facial muscles dystrophy after treatment and suddenly their faces look wider. One of the most prominent examples I have seen is none other than Sarah Hornsby. Her before and after myofunctional therapy transformation is quite impressive. Her face looks wider and more angular even though she gained weight in the after. 

By the way what is the example of facehacking dude? 

The rest of your post is great but I just want to point out something. Not to detract from you general argument but Ronald Ead kind of failed in his FAGGA treatment. The other thing he does not chew hard gum or anything just meat. His doctor warned him against that because of cracks in his teeth.

Abdul, what is your take on what I’ve touched on before regarding general body posture and experiencing large amounts of remodeling from experiencing this, and after correcting the body posture. I’m taking something like a posterior or anterior pelvic tilt. For example sake, let me give you a scenario here. Imagine looking and feeling completely normal before experiencing a pelvic tilt. All muscles are functioning as they should be. For the most part. Then fast forward a few years of practicing bad posture etc. and you have tight muscles ranging from the pelvic area all the way up to the facial area (masetter, temporalis etc.)  And you can basically feel the muscles around your neck and throat playing tug of war with the muscles around your face which holds your mandible back a bit. It’s fairky difficult explaining this, but that’s the best I can do.  Hopefully you can visualize this 

 

As I've said before, SUGR2 has touched on this. He dicuscxwrd this  on one of Progress’ threads. He basically pointed out that one can expect large amounts of remodeling in courtesy of postural changes and correction. Even around the four head area. Mike Mew seems to like to talk about this, too.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 2:21 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: GoTTi

Abdul, what is your take on what I’ve touched on before regarding general body posture and experiencing large amounts of remodeling from experiencing this, and after correcting the body posture. I’m taking something like a posterior or anterior pelvic tilt. For example sake, let me give you a scenario here. Imagine looking and feeling completely normal before experiencing a pelvic tilt. All muscles are functioning as they should be. For the most part. Then fast forward a few years of practicing bad posture etc. and you have tight muscles ranging from the pelvic area all the way up to the facial area (masetter, temporalis etc.)  And you can basically feel the muscles around your neck and throat playing tug of war with the muscles around your face which holds your mandible back a bit. It’s fairky difficult explaining this, but that’s the best I can do.  Hopefully you can visualize this 

 

As I've said before, SUGR2 has touched on this. He dicuscxwrd this  on one of Progress’ threads. He basically pointed out that one can expect large amounts of remodeling in courtesy of postural changes and correction. Even around the four head area. Mike Mew seems to like to talk about this, too.

Its clear what your saying. A misalignment in one part of the body will lead to misalignments in the rest of the body, even if less sever. This can lead to losing correct oral function and posture and ultimately lead to facial recession.

Can you link me to this post?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 2:58 am
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: GoTTi

Abdul, what is your take on what I’ve touched on before regarding general body posture and experiencing large amounts of remodeling from experiencing this, and after correcting the body posture. I’m taking something like a posterior or anterior pelvic tilt. For example sake, let me give you a scenario here. Imagine looking and feeling completely normal before experiencing a pelvic tilt. All muscles are functioning as they should be. For the most part. Then fast forward a few years of practicing bad posture etc. and you have tight muscles ranging from the pelvic area all the way up to the facial area (masetter, temporalis etc.)  And you can basically feel the muscles around your neck and throat playing tug of war with the muscles around your face which holds your mandible back a bit. It’s fairky difficult explaining this, but that’s the best I can do.  Hopefully you can visualize this 

 

As I've said before, SUGR2 has touched on this. He dicuscxwrd this  on one of Progress’ threads. He basically pointed out that one can expect large amounts of remodeling in courtesy of postural changes and correction. Even around the four head area. Mike Mew seems to like to talk about this, too.

Its clear what your saying. A misalignment in one part of the body will lead to misalignments in the rest of the body, even if less sever. This can lead to losing correct oral function and posture and ultimately lead to facial recession.

Can you link me to this post?

I don’t think the lack of oral posture should be the only thing accounted for here. I literally think the muscles surrounding the face and neck pull on these big bones and bone groups and just retracts them and holds them there until they’re relaxed and in proper alignment. This is why I theorize that once I correct my body posture and pelvic tilt,  my jaws will realign themselves.  At the moment, if I go and try to stretch my jaw outwards via jutting while holding my head up and backwards, I can literally feel the pull and restriction of the platysma holding the jaw back from jutting to a completion. Imo, this should remedy itself with the correction of body posture (& oral posture to a slighter degree in the short term, and to a significant degree in the long term) but mostly general body posture.

 

Also, it is important to mention that my tongue strength and ability to Mew has decreased significantly over the ost 4 years or so. But again, it all started with the other muscles and their mechanical pull. Not because of tongue posture. I don’t think lack of oral posture or Mewing can produce such dramatic results that quick if you’re in your 20’s like me.  but I do remember seeing a case of a woman who was either in her late 30s or 40s, who was seeing an oral facial myologist and experienced great changes in a relatively quick period. She did have a frenectomy and underwent palate expansion though. 

 

heres the link https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/progress-of-progress-two-year-skull-change/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 3:56 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Fknasymetries

I just want to point out something. Most aesthetic changes come from muscle atrophy/hypertrophy. Having strong masseters gives the impression of a lower gonial angle, look at that "facehacking" dude for exemple. Don't get me wrong, i am not minimizing the transformations some guys may have had, i just want to point out that peoples underestimate the importance of muscle and overestimate how much changes you get from only moving facial bones.

You my friend take the cake! I have been wanting to make apost about this because this is such an important and over looked topic.

A beautiful ogee curve is not just wide zygomatic arches but also narrow cheek muscles. Myofunctional patients show this effect. Their facial muscles dystrophy after treatment and suddenly their faces look wider. One of the most prominent examples I have seen is none other than Sarah Hornsby. Her before and after myofunctional therapy transformation is quite impressive. Her face looks wider and more angular even though she gained weight in the after. 

By the way what is the example of facehacking dude? 

The rest of your post is great but I just want to point out something. Not to detract from you general argument but Ronald Ead kind of failed in his FAGGA treatment. The other thing he does not chew hard gum or anything just meat. His doctor warned him against that because of cracks in his teeth.

Abdul, what is your take on what I’ve touched on before regarding general body posture and experiencing large amounts of remodeling from experiencing this, and after correcting the body posture. I’m taking something like a posterior or anterior pelvic tilt. For example sake, let me give you a scenario here. Imagine looking and feeling completely normal before experiencing a pelvic tilt. All muscles are functioning as they should be. For the most part. Then fast forward a few years of practicing bad posture etc. and you have tight muscles ranging from the pelvic area all the way up to the facial area (masetter, temporalis etc.)  And you can basically feel the muscles around your neck and throat playing tug of war with the muscles around your face which holds your mandible back a bit. It’s fairky difficult explaining this, but that’s the best I can do.  Hopefully you can visualize this 

 

As I've said before, SUGR2 has touched on this. He dicuscxwrd this  on one of Progress’ threads. He basically pointed out that one can expect large amounts of remodeling in courtesy of postural changes and correction. Even around the four head area. Mike Mew seems to like to talk about this, too.

Yeah good stuff @gotti @fknasymetries

Ientifying bad body posture and fixing it should be the main focus even while trying to achieve good oral posture. If one doesn't fix posture, you can hard mew all you want but you're going to be applying the wrong forces and it's going to be very ineffective airway wise. Good body posture and a stable bite at the molars relaxes the hyiod and naturally drives the tongue to a suck hold on the anterior palate. Without much of an effort. Pretty much the proof of how mewing works and directs growth throughout the whole skull. 

The way your face muscles work when ur mandible is freed by being positively affected by body posture is completely different then when it's retracted. The bite force at the molars increases heavily cause the masseters are working correctly.

Soft tissue change after the MSE isn't that noticeable right after tidying things up probably because people aren't aware of this and remain in a bad posture. Even tho tongue space affects the other, when things are left under the carpet and aren't addressed you re bound to relapse.

Biting hard at the molars alone with a good mandible position and training the masseters the right way will give you more soft tissue changes than expansion alone. 

Occlusal plane angle has a huge impact on the skeletal development, soft tissue, muscular balance and future maloclusions. especially the anterior maxillary part if we're talking about potential growth having in mind the the condylar response to bone deposition and where key forces are being applied to the maxilla while allowing for that well placed tongue signaling in the palate. 

If I expanded my upper arch tranversely right now by 10mm I probably wouldn't see much difference like they didnt. but over time and with the correct biting forces and an almost effortless oral posture being applied I'd probably see big changes. 

I saw a very interesting article about correlation of the occlusal plane angle, bone deposition and soft tissue changes on the skull. I'll try to find it and post it here. Or maybe another topic, this threads almost taking over the forum. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 4:35 am
Fknasymetries
Eminent Member

Here is Facehacking's transformation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4rtJupcf60

 

As for Ronald ead, i was talking about aesthetic changes, his side profile has improved a lot more than any other FAGGA users i've seen. Something looks off from front view, that's because of his huge masseters, they are like they should be but huge relatively to the rest of his face and particularly his zygos. Not everyone can have these ultra proeminent cheekbones you see on some models but having them correctly developped is ultra important. No model comes to my mind for giving you an example but Geralt of Rivia from The witcher (it's going too far i swear) has this look i am reffering to, not huge bulging cheekbones but more of a sqarish looking face with straight temple to masseter line. If you look specifically at his cheekbones, you can see that they are well developped and play an important role in his face. It is a video game charater yes, but many peoples have a similar look to this IRL. I believe Ronny is that kind of person too, he won't get insanely preominent cheekbones, but it's going to make a subtle yet extremmly important difference in his mid face, this is the kind of change UCLAnewbie would call "imperceptible"

 

Yes you are right, Ronny doesn't chew hard gum but changed his diet, this is  what makes the difference. He's not just putting the appliance in his mouth and waiting for it to do all the work for him but you are right i should have precised that he's on a carnivore diet. The fact that his FAGGA treatment failed is  sad but at least, his lower jaw got out of his throat, allowing him to adopt a correct head posture (thus helping him with migraines etc), a correct tongue posture and to recruit his masseters correctly.

 

As @gotti said, body and head posture are extremmely important and make an huge difference  in how your face look. As a kid and teenager, i was not happy with my face, i found it too short, once i adopted a more correct head posture, i was like "wow it starts to look like a human face", it looks taller and i like it. Now i only want to get a few mm of forward growth for being able to breathe correctly with proper tongue posture, neck posture, to sleep better and restore proper muscle usage. Idk if temporalis will atrophy on their own but if not, then it's easy to fix it with some botox. 

 

I will stop here with all the aesthetic aspect because it's not the main topic, but i want peoples to know, good looking guys and even some models are not perfect either, far from it, they are just less messed up than you. Contrary to popular beliefs, what  separates you from them is less about bones than u think and more about muscle, however, those few mm of bones can prevent you from using your msucles correctly, drastically affect their shape (for exemple peoples with facial assymetries). So fixing your bones is not everything, but a huge step forward. If you are suitable for MSE or other orthodontic appliances then you have problems with your bones, even if you want to have implants later, you better fix the cause, your health and then the damages (aesthetically speaking) caused. Oh and btw stop aiming for this model look, being good looking/handsome =/= looking like a model, the model look is a very specific branch of good looking peoples like some users like @eddiemoney stated countlesses time.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 5:58 am
GoTTi
Trusted Member

Great discussion, guys. I love where it’s headed. I would really love to see @SUGR2 junp into this discussion to share his expertise when he has some free time. I think body posture isn’t mentioned enough and it can definitely contribute to aesthetic change.... more than a lot of people think it can.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 11:03 am
davewheeler87
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Fknasymetries

I just want to point out something. Most aesthetic changes come from muscle atrophy/hypertrophy. Having strong masseters gives the impression of a lower gonial angle, look at that "facehacking" dude for exemple. Don't get me wrong, i am not minimizing the transformations some guys may have had, i just want to point out that peoples underestimate the importance of muscle and overestimate how much changes you get from only moving facial bones.

You my friend take the cake! I have been wanting to make a post about this because this is such an important and over looked topic.

A beautiful ogee curve is not just wide zygomatic arches but also narrow cheek muscles. Myofunctional patients show this effect. Their facial muscles dystrophy after treatment and suddenly their faces look wider. One of the most prominent examples I have seen is none other than Sarah Hornsby. Her before and after myofunctional therapy transformation is quite impressive. Her face looks wider and more angular even though she gained weight in the after. 

By the way what is the example of facehacking dude? 

The rest of your post is great but I just want to point out something. Not to detract from your general argument but Ronald Ead kind of failed in his FAGGA treatment. The other thing, he does not chew hard gum or anything just meat. His doctor warned him against that because of cracks in his teeth.

Ronny's FAGGA did not fail. To the contrary, it was a success. He even says that himself on his blog. The Problem was the CAB phase.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 5:59 pm
davewheeler87
Active Member
Posted by: GoTTi

Great discussion, guys. I love where it’s headed. I would really love to see @SUGR2 junp into this discussion to share his expertise when he has some free time. I think body posture isn’t mentioned enough and it can definitely contribute to aesthetic change.... more than a lot of people think it can.

Body posture is so underrated in all of this. My Body posture was absolutely terrible. I had a low left shoulder, a short right leg, head tilt. All of that along with mouth breathing  caused my face to melt. I have en-even eyes and a un-even smile and my right side of my face is kind of droopy with a turkey neck. My tongue doesn't fit in the top of my palate. I am in month 4 of FAGGA and I have been working crazy hard on my head posture. I am going to see about my body posture soon. After almost 4 months I can already see a difference.... my turkey neck is gone and my head posture is slowly getting better. My cheek bones under my eye are getting bigger... I could never see them before while looking down.... now I can a bit. I am about half way done FAGGA so I am exited to see my final results with FAGGA in ~3-5 months and then working on my body posture. I bet I won't see full results for another 5 years doing all of this.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 6:21 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: davewheeler87
Posted by: GoTTi

Great discussion, guys. I love where it’s headed. I would really love to see @SUGR2 junp into this discussion to share his expertise when he has some free time. I think body posture isn’t mentioned enough and it can definitely contribute to aesthetic change.... more than a lot of people think it can.

Body posture is so underrated in all of this. My Body posture was absolutely terrible. I had a low left shoulder, a short right leg, head tilt. All of that along with mouth breathing  caused my face to melt. I have en-even eyes and a un-even smile and my right side of my face is kind of droopy with a turkey neck. My tongue doesn't fit in the top of my palate. I am in month 4 of FAGGA and I have been working crazy hard on my head posture. I am going to see about my body posture soon. After almost 4 months I can already see a difference.... my turkey neck is gone and my head posture is slowly getting better. My cheek bones under my eye are getting bigger... I could never see them before while looking down.... now I can a bit. I am about half way done FAGGA so I am exited to see my final results with FAGGA in ~3-5 months and then working on my body posture. I bet I won't see full results for another 5 years doing all of this.

Hey bro, thanks for the acknowledgment. Yes, I do agree with you. It is VERY underrated and most definitely a prime factor that  most need to look into. A lot of people going in for these expansion treatments really need to understand that as long as their posture isn't in perfect harmony, they will not get the results that they want and will relapse. So it is imperative to work on body posture, tongue posture, and perhaps help things out with artificial expansion with maybe light forces. It has to be all three or at least the first two.

 

I am now also realizing that the aesthetic changes a lot of us want will come from SLOW expansion and not from something so invasive like MSE. Although I am not discrediting this protocol here as it can definitely provide people with results. But i firmly  believe that one should attempt expanding slowly before indulging in a treatment like this.

 

Lastly,  I don’t really believe that it’ll take that long for you to experience final results. I think maybe 2 to 3 years sounds more plausible especially if you take care of your body posture and get back into optimal allignment. I researched Bowen Therapy (thanks Anomaly) and it’s definitely something I will be doing very soon. It’s an amazing therapy from what I have researched and it is such a subtle procedure that it just confirms that we all have to be going as light as possible to work with our bodies to achieve optimal aesthetic results.  I encourage everyone to look into this therapy and do their homework on it.  I can go on explaining it but it would be better if you just look it up yourselves. There’s not much to it anyway 

 

NOTE: I am also very interested in the combination of NCR/Facepulling as Dr. Dean Howell reported a case study of his who experienced 1cm forward growth with this combo AND of course, we shouldn’t disregard Plato and Patient Zero’s results either. They actually have the best results I have ever seen on the net from any type of distraction/expansion therapy. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 7:17 pm
davewheeler87
Active Member
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: davewheeler87
Posted by: GoTTi

Great discussion, guys. I love where it’s headed. I would really love to see @SUGR2 junp into this discussion to share his expertise when he has some free time. I think body posture isn’t mentioned enough and it can definitely contribute to aesthetic change.... more than a lot of people think it can.

Body posture is so underrated in all of this. My Body posture was absolutely terrible. I had a low left shoulder, a short right leg, head tilt. All of that along with mouth breathing  caused my face to melt. I have en-even eyes and a un-even smile and my right side of my face is kind of droopy with a turkey neck. My tongue doesn't fit in the top of my palate. I am in month 4 of FAGGA and I have been working crazy hard on my head posture. I am going to see about my body posture soon. After almost 4 months I can already see a difference.... my turkey neck is gone and my head posture is slowly getting better. My cheek bones under my eye are getting bigger... I could never see them before while looking down.... now I can a bit. I am about half way done FAGGA so I am exited to see my final results with FAGGA in ~3-5 months and then working on my body posture. I bet I won't see full results for another 5 years doing all of this.

Hey bro, thanks for the acknowledgment. Yes, I do agree with you. It is VERY underrated and most definitely a prime factor that  most need to look into. A lot of people going in for these expansion treatments really need to understand that as long as their posture isn't in perfect harmony, they will not get the results that they want and will relapse. So it is imperative to work on body posture, tongue posture, and perhaps help things out with artificial expansion with maybe light forces. It has to be all three or at least the first two.

 

I am now also realizing that the aesthetic changes a lot of us want will come from SLOW expansion and not from something so invasive like MSE. Although I am not discrediting this protocol here as it can definitely provide people with results. But i firmly  believe that one should attempt expanding slowly before indulging in a treatment like this.

 

Lastly,  I don’t really believe that it’ll take that long for you to experience final results. I think maybe 2 to 3 years sounds more plausible especially if you take care of your body posture and get back into optimal allignment. I researched Bowen Therapy (thanks Anomaly) and it’s definitely something I will be doing very soon. It’s an amazing therapy from what I have researched and it is such a subtle procedure that it just confirms that we all have to be going as light as possible to work with our bodies to achieve optimal aesthetic results.  I encourage everyone to look into this therapy and do their homework on it.  I can go on explaining it but it would be better if you just look it up yourselves. There’s not much to it anyway 

 

NOTE: I am also very interested in the combination of NCR/Facepulling as Dr. Dean Howell reported a case study of his who experienced 1cm forward growth with this combo AND of course, we shouldn’t disregard Plato and Patient Zero’s results either. They actually have the best results I have ever seen on the net from any type of distraction/expansion therapy. 

I will look into the Bowen Technique .... thanks. It's incredible frustrating to think that all my problems could have been solved or never existed in the first place if I had proper oral and body posture when I was young. The first time I ever heard about tongue posture was like a year ago when researching sleep apnea. I am praying I don't have to wait long to see results. I can't wait until I am done with this so I can share my story with results and potentially help people who were in the same position as me.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/06/2019 8:37 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: davewheeler87

Ronny's FAGGA did not fail. To the contrary, it was a success. He even says that himself on his blog. The Problem was the CAB phase.

I don't know if what you claim he said about CAB is true, but do you know what entails FAGGA failure?  Excessive teeth tipping, which he had developed before he took his first break. You can look at his x-rays that he did midway treatment (week 26) and see it clearly. His narrow nasolabial angle is another sign of this. Plus having your tmj dislocate, is a major failure in itself, so much so that he had to allow forward progress to relapse.

One more thing, as well intending as Ronald is, sometime he makes incorrect statements. Take for example his video about Dr. Bromage lecture that he attended. He claimed that FAGGA promotes growth from pterygoid plate. That is incorrect. Sugr2 went into this explaining how he confused general growth patterns with FAGGA's growth. 

Orthodontics and medicine in general is not an easy field. Experts spend decades researching and learning before they know what they are talking about, and sometimes they are wrong too.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 1:17 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: UCLAnewbie

Regardless, thank you all for your time.

It looks like I can't post anything further without getting my posts deleted by @TGW.

I will be taking my leave now, good luck to everyone. I wish you the best

If this is true, then that is really lame. I expected more of this forum. Censorship hearing something that goes against your narrative is COWARDLY.

UCLANewbie, please send me a way to get in contact with you in private message.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 5:48 am
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust
Posted by: UCLAnewbie

Regardless, thank you all for your time.

It looks like I can't post anything further without getting my posts deleted by @TGW.

I will be taking my leave now, good luck to everyone. I wish you the best

If this is true, then that is really lame. I expected more of this forum. Censorship hearing something that goes against your narrative is COWARDLY.

UCLANewbie, please send me a way to get in contact with you in private message.

Chill dude, I was also censored too. After the censorship took place, he had sent me a message stating that my comment was removed in order to keep the argument disengaged. Newbie was  regurgitating  too many ideas and just being too dogmatic when we all know some pretty major breakthroughs are starting to prove these dogmatic concepts wrong. He needs to be fair and understand that there is very little funding for a plethora of thesenatural and newer treatments 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 7:20 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

 

Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust
Posted by: UCLAnewbie

Regardless, thank you all for your time.

It looks like I can't post anything further without getting my posts deleted by @TGW.

I will be taking my leave now, good luck to everyone. I wish you the best

If this is true, then that is really lame. I expected more of this forum. Censorship hearing something that goes against your narrative is COWARDLY.

UCLANewbie, please send me a way to get in contact with you in private message.

Nothing is censored, things are only removed if they're clearly trying to provoke a personal argument and feud between users. We've had a long discussion over PM and it's been made clear that he's welcome to keep posting and making new threads as long as he isn't intentionally antagonizing other users.

Right after this discussion, he quoted a massive post just to reply with "lol". Literally just "lol". That's not discussion, that's just being petty, and that's the post which I deleted. 

We never censor contradictory opinions, but we will cut off posters who are intentionally disruptive and inflammatory. And those people will always act like martyrs for being requested to speak with decorum.

Anyone wishing to continue discussion on this topic can do it via PM, this thread has already been derailed 3 times and I'm trying to stop it from happening again

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 8:17 am
MikeMewacca, Fknasymetries, GoTTi and 2 people liked
davewheeler87
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: davewheeler87

Ronny's FAGGA did not fail. To the contrary, it was a success. He even says that himself on his blog. The Problem was the CAB phase.

I don't know if what you claim he said about CAB is true, but do you know what entails FAGGA failure?  Excessive teeth tipping, which he had developed before he took his first break. You can look at his x-rays that he did midway treatment (week 26) and see it clearly. His narrow nasolabial angle is another sign of this. Plus having your tmj dislocate, is a major failure in itself, so much so that he had to allow forward progress to relapse.

One more thing, as well intending as Ronald is, sometime he makes incorrect statements. Take for example his video about Dr. Bromage lecture that he attended. He claimed that FAGGA promotes growth from pterygoid plate. That is incorrect. Sugr2 went into this explaining how he confused general growth patterns with FAGGA's growth. 

Orthodontics and medicine in general is not an easy field. Experts spend decades researching and learning before they know what they are talking about, and sometimes they are wrong too.

The fact that he says FAGGA "changed my life by giving me my health and allowing me to pursue my ambitions" right there that makes it a success. It frustrating when people over look statements like that and say ohhhh well the teeth tipped. Teeth tipping can be solved in like a month. I have no idea where you're getting his TMJ dislocated, I don't even know what that means. Also, Ron wasn't being treated  by a LVI dentist, I think that can make a difference. Secondly, I agree Ron isn't a doctor (yet) and is just using his opinion. But, there are plenty of doctors that are saying Fagga does promote growth. I don't who Sugr2 is but ill take the word of Dentists who use their actual names when giving their professional opinion. I have seen countless dentists saying the opposite.Yes, I agree experts are sometimes wrong too but, I trust the opinion of an expert over the opinion of random people in an anonymous forum. I am being treated by a LVI dentist and I will have no problem sharing my results after its all done. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 8:54 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: davewheeler87
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: davewheeler87

Ronny's FAGGA did not fail. To the contrary, it was a success. He even says that himself on his blog. The Problem was the CAB phase.

I don't know if what you claim he said about CAB is true, but do you know what entails FAGGA failure?  Excessive teeth tipping, which he had developed before he took his first break. You can look at his x-rays that he did midway treatment (week 26) and see it clearly. His narrow nasolabial angle is another sign of this. Plus having your tmj dislocate, is a major failure in itself, so much so that he had to allow forward progress to relapse.

One more thing, as well intending as Ronald is, sometime he makes incorrect statements. Take for example his video about Dr. Bromage lecture that he attended. He claimed that FAGGA promotes growth from pterygoid plate. That is incorrect. Sugr2 went into this explaining how he confused general growth patterns with FAGGA's growth. 

Orthodontics and medicine in general is not an easy field. Experts spend decades researching and learning before they know what they are talking about, and sometimes they are wrong too.

The fact that he says FAGGA "changed my life by giving me my health and allowing me to pursue my ambitions" right there that makes it a success. It frustrating when people over look statements like that and say ohhhh well the teeth tipped. Teeth tipping can be solved in like a month. I have no idea where you're getting his TMJ dislocated, I don't even know what that means. Also, Ron wasn't being treated  by a LVI dentist, I think that can make a difference. Secondly, I agree Ron isn't a doctor (yet) and is just using his opinion. But, there are plenty of doctors that are saying Fagga does promote growth. I don't who Sugr2 is but ill take the word of Dentists who use their actual names when giving their professional opinion. I have seen countless dentists saying the opposite.Yes, I agree experts are sometimes wrong too but, I trust the opinion of an expert over the opinion of random people in an anonymous forum. I am being treated by a LVI dentist and I will have no problem sharing my results after its all done. 

The issue is that the LVI dentists don't provide any proof that they're causing growth beyond remodeling the alveolar ridge, and all X rays uploaded by patients only show premaxilla shifting and teeth tipping. Even at a conference for the AGGA/Growth guidance they didn't have any sort of evidence that they were moving the actual maxilla. They talked a lot about Enlow saying that growth occurs at the tuberosity, but absolutely nothing linking AGGA to this type of growth. 

The simplest answer can sometimes be the right one. If they had a successful case of remodeling the entire maxilla, or even parts of the nasomaxillary complex, they would be publishing their results and collecting their names for the medical history books. The AGGA has been around in some shape or form for decades, there are no such cases. 

Regarding TMJ dislocation:

This phenomenon is the result of AGGA expanding the maxilla without expanding the mandible. Eventually you get to the point where the maxilla gets so much longer that the only way the mandible can keep up is to dislocate forward in the TMJ.

https://ronaldead.com/blog/14-weeks-of-settling-mse-transition

The TMJ is within the temporal bone, so if the jaw is trying to keep up with the front of the maxilla without TMJ remodeling it will dislocate. 

The AGGA gave Ronny more room to move his tongue out of his throat, which helped his posture and helped relieve his headaches - though he also had surgery for that. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 9:20 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: davewheeler87

The fact that he says FAGGA "changed my life by giving me my health and allowing me to pursue my ambitions" right there that makes it a success. It frustrating when people over look statements like that and say ohhhh well the teeth tipped. Teeth tipping can be solved in like a month. I have no idea where you're getting his TMJ dislocated, I don't even know what that means. Also, Ron wasn't being treated  by a LVI dentist, I think that can make a difference. Secondly, I agree Ron isn't a doctor (yet) and is just using his opinion. But, there are plenty of doctors that are saying Fagga does promote growth. I don't who Sugr2 is but ill take the word of Dentists who use their actual names when giving their professional opinion. I have seen countless dentists saying the opposite.Yes, I agree experts are sometimes wrong too but, I trust the opinion of an expert over the opinion of random people in an anonymous forum. I am being treated by a LVI dentist and I will have no problem sharing my results after its all done. 

I disagree with this because success can't be just measured by how a patient feels about a treatment in the short term. There is something called placebo effect. Hype up a placebo treatment and give it to people in need and watch how patient symptoms start dropping only to come back after the excitement wears off. 

But putting this aside for a second, what is the goal of FAGGA? It's to open the airway by bringing the lower jaw forward. However, to do that there needs to be space in the upper jaw. By design FAGGA does that by advancing the entire front 6 teeth (from root to tip) forward.

In Ronald's case the roots did move but the tips outpaced them significantly. Again by design, that is a failure of treatment because tipping roots compromises the teeth and alveolar bone holding them in the long run and renders FAGGA meaningless.

In such case what's the point of using FAGGA, to tip the top front teeth? Any braces can do that. FAGGAs role is to achieve complete movement of the teeth from root to tip. Now he is forced to pull progress of 6 months or so back to reduce the tipping and has to deal with a dislocated tmj, which you can read about in the bottom of his latest post dated May 21 2019.  

Quality results and long term stability go hand in hand and always trump short term excitement.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 9:46 am
davewheeler87
Active Member
Posted by: TGW
Posted by: davewheeler87
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: davewheeler87

Ronny's FAGGA did not fail. To the contrary, it was a success. He even says that himself on his blog. The Problem was the CAB phase.

I don't know if what you claim he said about CAB is true, but do you know what entails FAGGA failure?  Excessive teeth tipping, which he had developed before he took his first break. You can look at his x-rays that he did midway treatment (week 26) and see it clearly. His narrow nasolabial angle is another sign of this. Plus having your tmj dislocate, is a major failure in itself, so much so that he had to allow forward progress to relapse.

One more thing, as well intending as Ronald is, sometime he makes incorrect statements. Take for example his video about Dr. Bromage lecture that he attended. He claimed that FAGGA promotes growth from pterygoid plate. That is incorrect. Sugr2 went into this explaining how he confused general growth patterns with FAGGA's growth. 

Orthodontics and medicine in general is not an easy field. Experts spend decades researching and learning before they know what they are talking about, and sometimes they are wrong too.

The fact that he says FAGGA "changed my life by giving me my health and allowing me to pursue my ambitions" right there that makes it a success. It frustrating when people over look statements like that and say ohhhh well the teeth tipped. Teeth tipping can be solved in like a month. I have no idea where you're getting his TMJ dislocated, I don't even know what that means. Also, Ron wasn't being treated  by a LVI dentist, I think that can make a difference. Secondly, I agree Ron isn't a doctor (yet) and is just using his opinion. But, there are plenty of doctors that are saying Fagga does promote growth. I don't who Sugr2 is but ill take the word of Dentists who use their actual names when giving their professional opinion. I have seen countless dentists saying the opposite.Yes, I agree experts are sometimes wrong too but, I trust the opinion of an expert over the opinion of random people in an anonymous forum. I am being treated by a LVI dentist and I will have no problem sharing my results after its all done. 

The issue is that the LVI dentists don't provide any proof that they're causing growth beyond remodeling the alveolar ridge, and all X rays uploaded by patients only show premaxilla shifting and teeth tipping. Even at a conference for the AGGA/Growth guidance they didn't have any sort of evidence that they were moving the actual maxilla. They talked a lot about Enlow saying that growth occurs at the tuberosity, but absolutely nothing linking AGGA to this type of growth. 

The simplest answer can sometimes be the right one. If they had a successful case of remodeling the entire maxilla, or even parts of the nasomaxillary complex, they would be publishing their results and collecting their names for the medical history books. The AGGA has been around in some shape or form for decades, there are no such cases. 

Regarding TMJ dislocation:

This phenomenon is the result of AGGA expanding the maxilla without expanding the mandible. Eventually you get to the point where the maxilla gets so much longer that the only way the mandible can keep up is to dislocate forward in the TMJ.

https://ronaldead.com/blog/14-weeks-of-settling-mse-transition

The TMJ is within the temporal bone, so if the jaw is trying to keep up with the front of the maxilla without TMJ remodeling it will dislocate. 

The AGGA gave Ronny more room to move his tongue out of his throat, which helped his posture and helped relieve his headaches - though he also had surgery for that. 

Oh yes, I am all for that. I would love to see it published and all of that. Just because it's not published doesn't mean it's not working. I am not a doctor and I have no clue how one would go about publishing work but with LVI, they are new. I could be wrong but I don't think a single patient of theirs has completed treatment. According to LVI they are in works with Harvard and NYU collecting data on case studies and will be publishing soon. Look, this is just me but, my mandible, at rest, naturally comes forward and creates an underbite, therefore bringing my maxilla forward I can have a more natural bite and there is no need for me to pull back my mandible to bite. Lol on one hand you say Ronny isn't an expert and is wrong when you disagree with him then 5 minutes later you post him talking about TMJ dislocation when you agree with him like he's some expert now, cherrypicking. For arguments sake, lets say if FAGGA only moves the Pre-maxilla forward, that is absolutely huge for people like me who's tongue has never touched the palate. I need that room. If the teeth tip a bit I don't care.  There are hundreds of people who have said this type of treatment has helped them greatly. Yes, there are also people who said it doesn't but, thats to be expected with any treatment on earth, nothing is 100%. I really don't wanna get into a back and forth here but like I said earlier, I will gladly post my results.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 9:52 am
NoctilucentNikki
Active Member

Just poking in to say if anyone wants to hear the LVI crazy people and patients and Mr. Dickerson himself, check out this FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/tmjtmdosa/

With as much as he posts to argue with people I don't know how he time to actually work.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 5:33 pm
davewheeler87
Active Member

Lol I am in this group and the files in it are very informative ... I don't blame Bill for being a bit crabby as most the members in it are lazy and annoying and don't want to take the time to read and watch all the info posted. Bill puts out the information, it's there for you to read.... If you disagree then leave, its not that complicated... Bill doesn't want arguments and speculation in the group which is great.  I am only still in the group to have access to the Files and sometimes chime in on some advice. P.S Bill is retired so yes, he has a lot of time. If anyone is searching for help I highly recommend checking out the group there is a ton of information in there, pictures, before and afters, research, testimonials.... you name it its in there. Yes, he does ban people who go against him and question him but, there are already like 20 other groups for that ... one group I was in had random people going over X-rays and giving their non-medical opinions, which is insane. At lease that group has dentists in it.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 6:07 pm
NoctilucentNikki
Active Member
Posted by: davewheeler87

Lol I am in this group and the files in it are very informative ... I don't blame Bill for being a bit crabby as most the members in it are lazy and annoying and don't want to take the time to read and watch all the info posted. Bill puts out the information, it's there for you to read.... If you disagree then leave, its not that complicated... Bill doesn't want arguments and speculation in the group which is great.  I am only still in the group to have access to the Files and sometimes chime in on some advice. P.S Bill is retired so yes, he has a lot of time. If anyone is searching for help I highly recommend checking out the group there is a ton of information in there, pictures, before and afters, research, testimonials.... you name it its in there. Yes, he does ban people who go against him and question him but, there are already like 20 other groups for that ... one group I was in had random people going over X-rays and giving their non-medical opinions, which is insane. At lease that group has dentists in it.

I agree, there's a lot of good info in there. I didn't know Bill was retired, so that explains his constant presence. 

I was a bit turned off at the 'if you don't agree with us then leave' mentality though. However, I found this place and am happy with its discussions.

And I went to 4 consultations with LVI Dentists and they all only pushed a fixed orthotic as phase 1 and a total mouth reconstruction as phase 2. They seemed rigid in their beliefs, even though, every case was different. They seemed to value profit over the patients best interest. (At least for my case, I came in truly for TMD relief). One guy I went too was seriously the Sham Wow guy. 3 consults were free, his was $95 and I left feeling so cheesed off because I felt scammed. He never once looked in my mouth, his assistant did 90% of the consult before he came in and it was a straight sales pitch. It reminded me of a MLM monologue. Also, it was in a hair salon. Weird story. 

Anyways, I do believe something different works for different people. A neuro-muscular orthotic worked to stabilize me, as a removable one, made by someone who took LVI classes but preferred a non-fixed approach. And now that I am not having 11/10 pain 4 days a week I am ready for my phase 2, which I am pursuing the MSE for. I mentioned it once in the FB forum and got no responses! 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 7:21 pm
davewheeler87
Active Member
Posted by: NoctilucentNikki
Posted by: davewheeler87

Lol I am in this group and the files in it are very informative ... I don't blame Bill for being a bit crabby as most the members in it are lazy and annoying and don't want to take the time to read and watch all the info posted. Bill puts out the information, it's there for you to read.... If you disagree then leave, its not that complicated... Bill doesn't want arguments and speculation in the group which is great.  I am only still in the group to have access to the Files and sometimes chime in on some advice. P.S Bill is retired so yes, he has a lot of time. If anyone is searching for help I highly recommend checking out the group there is a ton of information in there, pictures, before and afters, research, testimonials.... you name it its in there. Yes, he does ban people who go against him and question him but, there are already like 20 other groups for that ... one group I was in had random people going over X-rays and giving their non-medical opinions, which is insane. At lease that group has dentists in it.

I agree, there's a lot of good info in there. I didn't know Bill was retired, so that explains his constant presence. 

I was a bit turned off at the 'if you don't agree with us then leave' mentality though. However, I found this place and am happy with its discussions.

And I went to 4 consultations with LVI Dentists and they all only pushed a fixed orthotic as phase 1 and a total mouth reconstruction as phase 2. They seemed rigid in their beliefs, even though, every case was different. They seemed to value profit over the patients best interest. (At least for my case, I came in truly for TMD relief). One guy I went too was seriously the Sham Wow guy. 3 consults were free, his was $95 and I left feeling so cheesed off because I felt scammed. He never once looked in my mouth, his assistant did 90% of the consult before he came in and it was a straight sales pitch. It reminded me of a MLM monologue. Also, it was in a hair salon. Weird story. 

Anyways, I do believe something different works for different people. A neuro-muscular orthotic worked to stabilize me, as a removable one, made by someone who took LVI classes but preferred a non-fixed approach. And now that I am not having 11/10 pain 4 days a week I am ready for my phase 2, which I am pursuing the MSE for. I mentioned it once in the FB forum and got no responses! 

Thats too bad you had a bad experience ... My LVI Dentist skipped my phase 1. I went right into FAGGA because there was no need for phase 1 He didn't push anything on me. .... unfortunately just like in everything, there are bad people out there who just wanna make money.  Did you post it in the FB group? I'm 99% sure I remember hearing that story before.... I also agree that everyone is different and the treatment isn't going to work for everyone. My LVI dentist said I was a great candidate for FAGGA because at rest my Mandible naturally came forward... the only thing I needed was my maxilla to come out and wider.... some people have far more complex cases than mine where FAGGA may not be the best option. Literally the only thing Im worried about is the FAGGA working too fast. Seeing those gaps coming in is a crazy thing to see but its good.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2019 9:57 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: Anomaly
 
 
we’re going on a handful or two of these well established case studies now. Some of them involve NO MSE

Can you show me the case studies/reports where protaction is achieved with a FM and no MSE?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 8:24 am
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: bundfalke
Posted by: Anomaly
 
 
we’re going on a handful or two of these well established case studies now. Some of them involve NO MSE

Can you show me the case studies/reports where protaction is achieved with a FM and no MSE?

The only two I know of are Plato and Pstient Zero. I’m not sure he was referring to them, but those are the only two I can think of. Have you seen their results? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 8:58 am
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: bundfalke
Posted by: Anomaly
 
 
we’re going on a handful or two of these well established case studies now. Some of them involve NO MSE

Can you show me the case studies/reports where protaction is achieved with a FM and no MSE?

The only two I know of are Plato and Pstient Zero. I’m not sure he was referring to them, but those are the only two I can think of. Have you seen their results? 

From plato yeah, but not the other guy.

I also found this some time ago: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crid/2014/270257/

But for some reason, her maxilla was moved forward and downwards

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2019 9:27 am
AmiMM
New Member

Have you considered using a reverse pull apparatus called The Crane (which uses the chest for friction) instead of the traditional facemask (which pushes against the forehead and chin)?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 7:40 pm
MikeMewacca
Active Member

This is very bothersome. Only in the last page someone introduced the concept of gray area (by rating from 1 to 8). I managed to get my hands on a score of records of MSE(+FM)-mind you, a gold mine- (mean 6mm exp and 2.5mm of protration after 4 months- protraction as measured by perpendicular of SN plane to A point, some cases were odd because the expansion was paralell but there was a pterygoid retraction, similar to old rme, the practitioner told me it was because of thin bone they had to put it more anteriorly causing it), and the majority didn't have noticeable changes (light and camera were standarized). Also, I'm sure the majority lose a couple of pounds, so it was even harder to tell if it was the weight loss or the MSE the culprit of a slight enhancement. The ammount of expansion and aesthetic improvement if I had to guess weren't strongly correlated, which is surprising, but it is what it is. 

Want some noticeable changes in transverse airway? Go for MSE.

Noticeable changes in aesthetics? Stick to surgery/implants.

Even though surgery the traditional way to improve, the methods are getting better and better, (This doesn't mean to push your surgeon for a LEFORT III 🤣 )

Also @Gotti neurocranial bones are pretty much unchangeable. Read Rosas & Bastir and Hans & Enlow.  (MSE changes slightly the sphenooccipital sychondrosis but that's about it, you are stuck with gay alien skull for life 🤣 🤣  I'm chuckling alone writing this, what a nice community 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/06/2019 6:50 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: MikeMewacca

This is very bothersome. Only in the last page someone introduced the concept of gray area (by rating from 1 to 8). I managed to get my hands on a score of records of MSE(+FM)-mind you, a gold mine- (mean 6mm exp and 2.5mm of protration after 4 months- protraction as measured by perpendicular of SN plane to A point, some cases were odd because the expansion was paralell but there was a pterygoid retraction, similar to old rme, the practitioner told me it was because of thin bone they had to put it more anteriorly causing it), and the majority didn't have noticeable changes (light and camera were standarized). Also, I'm sure the majority lose a couple of pounds, so it was even harder to tell if it was the weight loss or the MSE the culprit of a slight enhancement. The ammount of expansion and aesthetic improvement if I had to guess weren't strongly correlated, which is surprising, but it is what it is. 

Want some noticeable changes in transverse airway? Go for MSE.

Noticeable changes in aesthetics? Stick to surgery/implants.

Even though surgery the traditional way to improve, the methods are getting better and better, (This doesn't mean to push your surgeon for a LEFORT III 🤣 )

Also @Gotti neurocranial bones are pretty much unchangeable. Read Rosas & Bastir and Hans & Enlow.  (MSE changes slightly the sphenooccipital sychondrosis but that's about it, you are stuck with gay alien skull for life 🤣 🤣  I'm chuckling alone writing this, what a nice community 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Types just like UCLAnewbie. All he’s missing is the “English is not my first language” disclaimer lol.

 

Anyways I won’t speak much in regards to MSE as I haven’t really conducted much research on it yet. However, I do know that @varbrah did report positive aesthetic changes that you claim to be impossible. So, it’s not impossible in my book. He also dosed on MK-677, so that could be a reason why he saw changes and others didn’t. We don’t know for sure. 

 

But what I do know for sure is that you’re wrong about the lack of connection between posture and the remodeling of facial bones. You’re also incorrec about facial features not being able to change during adulthood. There is evidence stacked against all of what you’re saying  and soon there will be much more. Things are just getting started.  Terrible trouble and you couldn’t make it more noticeable 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/06/2019 8:56 am
NoctilucentNikki
Active Member

Guys guy guys... see this article. Warning- yucky pictures. SFOT, a form of bone grafting to widen the lower arch.

https://www.perioimplantadvisory.com/clinical-tips/surgical-techniques/article/16411515/surgically-facilitated-orthodontic-therapy-sfot-maximizing-case-outcome

I get my MSE and start lower (Damon) braces next month. And the Periodontist I will be working with, in conjunction with the orthodontist, says I will likely need this. This will widen my lower arch so it can match the upper arch, which we are sure to expand. Stay tuned, I will share in my thread. However, it may take months to grow this new bone.  (up to 6?) I see it as a small price to pay for the benefits and not having to have surgery. And yes, I would be asleep for this.

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Posted : 25/06/2019 10:17 pm
MikeMewacca
Active Member

I can tell uclanewbie is legit (sort of, don't wanna jinx it)

Yeah english ain't my fird language so excuse the lack of propah grammah.

Also, I never said it was impossible. Read my comment more carefully. 

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Posted : 25/06/2019 10:47 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Bumping this. We need as much information on this as possible. From what I understand that success cases in adults are limited and the device fails to expand in certain amount of adult population.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 09/07/2019 5:59 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Bumping this. We need as much information on this as possible. From what I understand that success cases in adults are limited and the device fails to expand in certain amount of adult population.

Who did you obtain that piece of info from? Because if it was from UCLAnewbie, I wouldn't even consider that legitimate information at all and would seek proper knowledge and information from Won Moon himself.  

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Posted : 10/07/2019 3:28 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Bumping this. We need as much information on this as possible. From what I understand that success cases in adults are limited and the device fails to expand in certain amount of adult population.

Who did you obtain that piece of info from? Because if it was from UCLAnewbie, I wouldn't even consider that legitimate information at all and would seek proper knowledge and information from Won Moon himself.  

I acquired that info from an actual doctor partitioning MSE who was taught by Von Moon, not from the UCLA guy. 

I will do my best to consult with all potential MSE docs and see what the general consensus opinion is.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 10/07/2019 4:54 pm
GoTTi liked
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Bumping this. We need as much information on this as possible. From what I understand that success cases in adults are limited and the device fails to expand in certain amount of adult population.

Who did you obtain that piece of info from? Because if it was from UCLAnewbie, I wouldn't even consider that legitimate information at all and would seek proper knowledge and information from Won Moon himself.  

I acquired that info from an actual doctor partitioning MSE who was taught by Von Moon, not from the UCLA guy. 

I will do my best to consult with all potential MSE docs and see what the general consensus opinion is.

Thank you for the response. Ok, that sounds good then. At least it was a certified practitioner who gave you that advice. Also, yea it's always a good thing to gather information in order to come up with a proper consensus. please keep us posted bro

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Posted : 10/07/2019 7:06 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member

Also, what exactly did you mean by when you stated "success cases are limited in adults" and were you told about the % of adults who failed to expand and what the failure rate is dependent on?

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Posted : 10/07/2019 7:12 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: GoTTi

Also, what exactly did you mean by when you stated "success cases are limited in adults" and were you told about the % of adults who failed to expand and what the failure rate is dependent on?

Yes, I was told 40-60% success rate in people over 30 I believe.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 10/07/2019 7:49 pm
Fknasymetries
Eminent Member

I have recently come across this, i know you guys don't like those sites and i apologize but i found this quite interesting

https://looksmax.me/threads/the-god-won-moon-replied-to-my-email-said-maxillary-protraction-is-possible-in-adults.30788/

 

when you click on this link, you can read a small conversation between 2 users. One of them is using the MSE and to quote him "I have facemask and mse, i did 10mm of expansion flared zygo and helped harmony not huge boost tho" which is going in the same direction as what we've discussed  in this thread (cheekbones will improve but won't go from flat to jon kortajarena tier).

 

But then, shortly after, he says this "I have about 6 months to protract, am still using mse, I will keep you guys updated promise, It works 2000% tho to shorten midface etc as you know" and that's where it gets interesting to me. Peoples on this site tend to call litterally everything "a cope" yet even some users from theses forums say that, which is quite encouraging tbh and once again goes agaisnt what UCLANewbie said . I also wonder how we went form "this girl expanded her palate 7mm and wasn't happy due to her cheekbones becoming too proeminent" to "SKELETALY expanding the palate with probably the best palatal expander out there won't change anything on your face".

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Posted : 18/08/2019 4:36 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@fknasymmetries

Yeah there's also a case example from Won Moon in Mike Mew's video, this one https://youtu.be/uwnYPeC7nK4?t=652. You can clearly see it's not just his palate that's expanding. In regards to what UCLANewbie said, Progress and Jamo have clearly gotten maxillary upswing, yeah it's just anecdotal but it's honestly a little tiring for people to be so fixated on "proof", "studies", and "clinical results", even though there's actually a decent amount, just not on mewing specifically. Although I guess that's the best we can expect, a study on mewing just isn't practical, there's no objective way to measure how someone mews, how long they mew, with how much force they mew, etc. The best we can hope for are anecdotes from people who take decent pics.

 

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Posted : 19/08/2019 5:06 am
bigolhead
New Member

Still waiting for @varbrah 's results.

 

Ronald Ead just had the MSE fitted https://ronaldead.com/blog/mse-2-weeks-34-turns

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Posted : 19/08/2019 6:08 pm
lanrete
New Member

So what happened to Varbrah, did he disappear from this forum? It's a shame because he had a lot of interesting info regarding MSE. Did anyone ever end up seeing his updated pics?

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Posted : 04/09/2019 3:31 pm
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: @lanrete

So what happened to Varbrah, did he disappear from this forum? It's a shame because he had a lot of interesting info regarding MSE. Did anyone ever end up seeing his updated pics?

Just busy with life hoss. Final pics + my full case study with discussion yet to come - braces coming off soon, hopefully, in which case I’ll start compiling documentation.

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Posted : 04/09/2019 5:30 pm
mewing203310
New Member

@varbrah

What was your progress? 

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Posted : 09/09/2019 2:59 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

hello boys, "I have facemask and mse, i did 10mm of expansion flared zygo and helped harmony not huge boost tho"  this was me, doing MSE again!! round two just trying to find a doc

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Posted : 28/09/2019 1:59 pm
entelechy
Active Member

@mewing101

just heard of someone who did MARPE in Ireland.  Don't know the name of the doctor. Maybe google? and post if you find?

entelechy

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Posted : 28/09/2019 7:17 pm
entelechy
Active Member

@le_fort_or_bust

Dr Moon who I interviewed last month for 4 hours told me that age is not a big factor. 

entelechy

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Posted : 28/09/2019 7:19 pm
varbrah
Estimable Member

Dem boyz:

Braces coming off in 3 weeks, x-rays and full report coming soon after if the schedule allows.

I will likely end up making a site/blog and I'll post my report there, then link it here. I will hopefully (again, if the schedule allows) be dishing out for some additional treatments in the future, so the idea is to post any future protocol/logs there too.

Get hype? Seeing as I'll be the first person to have done this it should be helpful, and I hopefully won't disappoint anyone too hard 🤩 🤩

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Posted : 10/10/2019 8:06 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member

@varbrah do you agree with the way Ronald Ead demonstrates attaching the facemask to his MSE in this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ptdF2ukctc )? He says in the video that he has decided not to use the facemask much since he doesn't want much more sagittal expansion after his AGGA treatment and the facemask was causing him headaches. My understanding is that you don't connect the elastics at the same angle he recommends. Also, do you agree with what he says about using as much force as is tolerable?

Posted by: @varbrah

Combined with FM, 1g of force per side and a force vector of -30 degrees to the occlusal plane should result in almost pure orthopedic forward movement and slight anterior tipping (ccw rotation) of the maxilla based on FEM models.

Posted by: @varbrah

In terms of angulation you just want to stay less than 45 degrees below the occlusal plane, optimal 15-30 from my understanding.

Posted by: @varbrah
 
The appropriate force vectors are all broken out for you if you actually take the time to read and comprehend the won moon studies. -30 degrees to the occlusal plane is ideal for protraction for maxillary retrusion but otherwise good vertical dimensions.
Posted by: @varbrah

I'm using two of the elastics you just described (1/2", 16oz. = ~500g) per side. Keep in mind that each of those elastics exerts ~500g of force when stretched to 3 * 1/2". If you stretch them further, then they simply exert more force.

Posted by: @varbrah

I am going purely by scientific studies and not conjecture. 500-1500g (no higher) of force per side has been found to be suitable.

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Posted : 10/10/2019 9:31 pm
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: @apollo

@varbrah do you agree with the way Ronald Ead demonstrates attaching the facemask to his MSE in this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ptdF2ukctc )? He says in the video that he has decided not to use the facemask much since he doesn't want much more sagittal expansion after his AGGA treatment and the facemask was causing him headaches. My understanding is that you don't connect the elastics at the same angle he recommends. Also, do you agree with what he says about using as much force as is tolerable?

His reasoning applying upwards force is pretty poor IMO, so not sure if I agree with that force vector, lol.

I've described this before as fundamentally a physics problem. You can't apply an upwards force at various points on the maxilla and expect it to, over time, displace the exact same way every time due to the variable reciprocal forces at the cranial sutures. There is also no one-size fits all solution for normalizing/fixing all growth patterns. This has been demonstrated via FEM models. Are FEM models perfect? No, but they're all we've got to go off of:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456601/

By changing the vector of force and location of N2 mini-implant, the maxilla was displaced differentially. Varying degrees of forward, downward, and rotational movements were observed in each case. For brachyfacial patients, anterior micro-implant-supported protraction at −45° or intermaxillary class III elastics at −45° are recommended. For dolicofacial patients, either anterior micro-implants at −15° or an intermaxillary spring at +30° is recommended. For mesofacial patients with favorable vertical maxillary position, palatal micro-implants at −30° are recommended; anterior micro-implants at −30° are preferred for shallow bites. For patients with a severe mid-facial deficiency, intermaxillary class III elastics at −30° are most effective in promoting anterior growth of the maxilla.

While the above pertains to the N2 mini-implant, this example is still demonstrative of why it's a bit more complicated than just "muh forward and up". Even if it were, the way to do that is probably not with elastics and a traditional facemask.

Truthfully though, he doesn't really need protraction in the first place since his forward growth is acceptable. If it were really bad, you'd be able to tell because he'd have a hollow midface, poor undereye support, poor soft tissue distribution, and etc. He did kind of screw himself over with FAGGA though, it would have been much more beneficial to have protracted the entire maxilla rather than just moving the alveolar ridge forward.

In regards to headaches, there was a short adjustment period after starting FM where I would get the occasional slight tension headache, but nothing major or crippling.

Negative on the "as much as tolerable". You need a sufficiently large amount of force to protract the maxilla as an adult. If the force is insufficient, you'll get poorer results given facemask wear-time or no results at all. Too large of a force though is not good either though and can be painful for the banded molars. Best to stick with the recommended ranges for adults. I opted for the higher end at about 1.5kg per side.

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Posted : 10/10/2019 11:18 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @varbrah

Anyone have experience with NCR/Endonasal release? Considering adding NCR to my regimen and wondering if doing so would add any synergies along with MSE+FM.

@varbrah did you ever end up experiementing with NCR? I wonder if inflating through the inferior meatus has the potential to disrupt the miniscrews protruding into the nasal cavity. I think if I was going to try it, I would wait until completing the expansion phase. Remind me, did you start using the facemask right away or wait until after you had finished advancing the MSE?

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Posted : 11/10/2019 4:18 pm
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @varbrah

Anyone have experience with NCR/Endonasal release? Considering adding NCR to my regimen and wondering if doing so would add any synergies along with MSE+FM.

@varbrah did you ever end up experiementing with NCR? I wonder if inflating through the inferior meatus has the potential to disrupt the miniscrews protruding into the nasal cavity. I think if I was going to try it, I would wait until completing the expansion phase. Remind me, did you start using the facemask right away or wait until after you had finished advancing the MSE?

I did NCR for a bit, but then got lazy. It wouldn’t disrupt the screws since they’re completely in the bone still.

I started using using FM a few days after installation after allowing the bone to heal a bit.

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Posted : 11/10/2019 6:40 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @varbrah

I started using using FM a few days after installation after allowing the bone to heal a bit.

So after your diastema appeared, but before you finished advancing the screw? Thanks! I'm still searching for an experienced MSE provider in my area.

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Posted : 11/10/2019 9:42 pm
MadMaxilla
New Member

@varbrah

Intraoral view of micro-implant-supported hyrax with facemask with Pal-MI-FM [−30°]

B Pal-MI-FM [−30] 3-mm lateral of the mid-palatine suture (aka MARPE) −30

This is MSE/face mask result of 30 degree down of occlusal plane, other simulations simulate intermaxillary elastic. 

So probably Dr. Zubad was right, an upward angle of facemask is a good idea and downward = bad idea. 

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Posted : 12/10/2019 10:02 am
MadMaxilla
New Member

I have Ansys and my own CBCT, I will try to mimic what Dr.Moon did on this research but more angle of MSE+FaceMask instead of just 30 degree below occlusal plane like this, the set up for everything is a pain though. 

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Posted : 12/10/2019 10:25 am
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: @madmaxilla

@varbrah

Intraoral view of micro-implant-supported hyrax with facemask with Pal-MI-FM [−30°]

B Pal-MI-FM [−30] 3-mm lateral of the mid-palatine suture (aka MARPE) −30

This is MSE/face mask result of 30 degree down of occlusal plane, other simulations simulate intermaxillary elastic. 

So probably Dr. Zubad was right, an upward angle of facemask is a good idea and downward = bad idea. 

not necessarily

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Posted : 12/10/2019 11:15 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

It's unclear to me why traction parallel to the occlusal plane (0 degrees) isn't an option to consider. Does pulling down and forward (e.g. -30 degrees) give more forward displacement than just forward? Maybe it helps create separation so there's less resistance from the circummaxillary sutures. Personally, I have a low lip line with reduced incisal display, so I'd gladly accept a shift downward one millimeter to get a shift forward of a few millimeters. Pulling upward and forward (e.g. +30 degrees) like @ronaldead demonstrates in his video about MSE+FM looks like it would be uncomfortable where the elastics press into the upper lip. I wonder if Dr. Newaz recommended an upward angle for FM traction or if this was Ronald's own decision, maybe based on the MewVector or Plato helmet designs.

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Posted : 12/10/2019 10:13 pm
MadMaxilla
New Member

I trust Dr.Mew, he has 50 years of orthotropics experience, when his mewvector is upward I will get my face mask upward. Most orthodontics uses intermaxillary elastics which only pull teeth and aveolar bone forward like this simulation but not the whole maxilla.  And they only care about teeth but not the whole face, when you pull your maxilla counter clockwise, chance are you will get open bites and it is more troublesome and time consuming to correct than just rotate maxilla downward and root resorption the 4 mandibular front teeth which most amateur and old school orthodontists do. But rotating it counterclockwise will correct gummy smile without cutting your gum.  

protraction headgear with 30 degree downward force result also in this research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5062052/

facemask protraction group: Elastics connected downwards at 30 degrees from the vestibular hooks on the RME to the crossbar of a vertically adjustable protraction facemask

The maxilla rotated clockwise by 2.7 degrees in the 30 degree facemask protraction group and rotated anti-clockwise by 5.5 degrees in the Control Group( no facemask but with ortho treatment)

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Posted : 13/10/2019 11:28 am
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: @apollo

It's unclear to me why traction parallel to the occlusal plane (0 degrees) isn't an option to consider. Does pulling down and forward (e.g. -30 degrees) give more forward displacement than just forward? Maybe it helps create separation so there's less resistance from the circummaxillary sutures. Personally, I have a low lip line with reduced incisal display, so I'd gladly accept a shift downward one millimeter to get a shift forward of a few millimeters. Pulling upward and forward (e.g. +30 degrees) like @ronaldead demonstrates in his video about MSE+FM looks like it would be uncomfortable where the elastics press into the upper lip. I wonder if Dr. Newaz recommended an upward angle for FM traction or if this was Ronald's own decision, maybe based on the MewVector or Plato helmet designs.

This is just my opinion, but what often needs to be done is stimulating maxillary sutural growth. The four "main" sutures of the maxilla are the frontomaxillary, zygomaticotemporal, zygomaticomaxillary and pterygopalatine sutures, which are all more or less parallel to one another, and are angled from downward posteriorly to upward anteriorly (see below for a rough sketch). Growth at these sutures would translate the maxilla down and forward.

Pushing "against the grain" or up and forwards is probably counter-productive in regards to producing sutural growth, but may be helpful for remodeling existing bone. In adult cases (like my own) I'd imagine it's more important for us to stimulate sutural growth via pulling forward and down (-15 to -30 degrees) since growth largely ceases here by about age 10.

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Posted : 03/11/2019 6:45 pm
Apollo liked
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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