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Possibly new "holy grail" for moving the maxilla up and forwards? [MSE + Facemask Therapy]  

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neverrelaxed
Active Member
Posted by: Roflcopters
Posted by: neverrelaxed

Hi, I just have MSE installed doing about 1mm per week but am struggling to find facemask that doesn't come with a chin cup? I am a class 2 for reference 

Check forwardontics.com

BOW appliance. Chest anchored. Did you talk with your ortho about using the fm with the mse? Be careful dude. 

 

Thank you man and this is solo project

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 12:16 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Toushiro303

I think UCLAnewbie is right.. I got an MSE installed from a private practitioner who has done a LOT of cases... but when I asked my ortho about the physical effects...he says he hasn't heard of anyone gaining major or noticeable transformations physically from the MSE. He just said it helped airway lol. And he also said he didnt know how to rotate it upwards lmao even tho hes been doing this for like 2 yrs (MSE)

And who are you 🙂 you seem to be very new.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 12:33 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Toushiro303

I think UCLAnewbie is right.. I got an MSE installed from a private practitioner who has done a LOT of cases... but when I asked my ortho about the physical effects...he says he hasn't heard of anyone gaining major or noticeable transformations physically from the MSE. He just said it helped airway lol. And he also said he didnt know how to rotate it upwards lmao even tho hes been doing this for like 2 yrs (MSE)

The protraction is what gives the noticeable effects, not MSE. Theee is nothing MSE can do to rotate anything upwards, that’s why he doesn’t know. That is, if this person is actually alive and not made up 😉

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 12:40 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

I think all of us know and have read that Mse plus fm isnt magically going to rotate an adults maxilla ccw @uclanewbie lol. The whole point is trying it under supervised people that want to change things up and continue evolving so we have solutions for ourselves and other people. 

I feel like yes, OK.. You could be preventing people doing some damaging stuff  to their faces and thanks for that but overall.. 

Your negative towards errythang attitude is bad anyways. It's not like people here are that uneducated.. 

It's not like a Le Fort isnt dangerous, it's alot more dangerous then applying slow forces to your palate with BOW or an Alf lmao. 

I feel like you would have done  the same thing years ago when the first marpe was being studied. Say how crazy people are for wanting this and that. Now it's a success.

Aesthetics or not MSE's beneficial and people here are aware of the benefits, anesthetics are just a plus.

Lack of transverse growth only contributes to a continued path towards a more narrowed palate giving problems in the future. People just know that and want to tackle it. 

Achieving CCW Rotation of the maxilla or not, a BOW appliance or anything thats proven to promote sagittal growth appositional deposition of bone being used with MSE should be tried .. If anything that allows for more movement if need be. Upwards or not. More studies. Evolution. For people like you to study them. 

It's the first post I see from you here and I'm 100 percent sure all of the others are going to be discrediting others people work or having a stale and discouraging opinion on things and people here. 

If there's no people willing to try [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] and potentially damaging this or that at their own ackowledged risk, much like you risk on surgerys you so suggested, you'd just be extracting teeth as a profession in 100 years.

Discouraging people isn't educating them. We're all aware of the potential risks. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 1:06 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Roflcopters

I think all of us know and have read that Mse plus fm isnt magically going to rotate an adults maxilla ccw @uclanewbie lol. The whole point is trying it under supervised people that want to change things up and continue evolving so we have solutions for ourselves and other people. 

I feel like yes, OK.. You could be preventing people doing some damaging stuff  to their faces and thanks for that but overall.. 

Your negative towards errythang attitude is bad anyways. It's not like people here are that uneducated.. 

It's not like a Le Fort isnt dangerous, it's alot more dangerous then applying slow forces to your palate with BOW or an Alf lmao. 

I feel like you would have done  the same thing years ago when the first marpe was being studied. Say how crazy people are for wanting this and that. Now it's a success.

Aesthetics or not MSE's beneficial and people here are aware of the benefits, anesthetics are just a plus.

Achieving CCW Rotation of the maxilla or not, a BOW appliance or anything thats proven to promote sagittal growth used with MSE should be tried .. If anything that allows for more movement if need be. Upwards or not. More studies. Evolution. 

It's the first post I see from you here and I'm 100 percent sure all of the others are going to be discrediting others people work or having a stale and discouraging opinion on things and people here. 

If there's no people willing to try [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] and potentially damaging this or that at their own ackowledged risk, much like you risk on surgerys you so suggested, you'd just be extracting teeth as a profession in 100 years.

Discouraging people isn't educating them. We're all aware of the potential risks. 

Exactly. Not to mention, this person is probably a troll from looksism. There’s no way a person of that stature would be posting on here, especially the way the person posted. UCLAnewbie claimed that you cannot (I repeat, CANNOT) change the cranio facial region as an adult at all and that these are changes only genentics can establish, however, also according to UCLAnewbie, the case studies that he/she has seen have had vertical growth changes? What?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 1:23 pm
UCLAnewbie
Active Member
Posted by: Roflcopters

I think all of us know and have read that Mse plus fm isnt magically going to rotate an adults maxilla ccw @uclanewbie lol. The whole point is trying it under supervised people that want to change things up and continue evolving so we have solutions for ourselves and other people. 

Maybe you know, but a lot of people on this forum seem to actually magically believe that. It is not safe to NOT consult an orthodontic professional when dealing with craniofacial complexes. You can really mess up your face. In the end, this is all speculation and theory on this forum by people who are not accredited in this field. There is no one supervising you, all these methods are not researched or test to the point of extent where random people can just be using them. I have come across things such as "face-pulling" on this forum that is completely ridiculous. There is no way to inject enough force without bone-anchored implants to even move the maxilla. Furthermore, this has not been tested drastically on adults. You have kids coming on to this forum from the internet, and the emergence of "mewing", where they will think these appliances can cause their face to change drastically, but it is DANGEROUS. 

I feel like yes, OK.. You could be preventing people doing some damaging stuff  to their faces and thanks for that but overall.. 

Overall what? I am just giving a heads up notice. The reality is, this is dangerous. Listen, if you want to install a face-mask without an orthodontic professional to "experiment" on yourself, you can do it. Nobody is stopping you. I am just trying to give clarification for all those people who are new to this field, that this is not SAFE. And for all the kids/teenagers that will be influenced to go on this forum and think this is a solution. Again, use this to your discretion. You are going to realize the effects of damaging your face, and it will be too late. 

Your negative towards errythang attitude is bad anyways. It's not like people here are that uneducated.. 

People are uneducated and reckless on this forum. Again, not trying to be negative. Just stating facts. If you want to risk [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up your face, you can do it. Nobody is stopping you.

It's not like a Le Fort isnt dangerous, it's alot more dangerous then applying slow forces to your palate with BOW or an Alf lmao. 

First of all, I never said Le fort wasn't dangerous? I just stated Le Fort is the only way we KNOW in the orthodontic community to clearly rotate the maxilla counter-clockwise and have major effects on the face,  backed up by research, trials, and studies. None of the BOW/ALF/DNA or any of these appliances have nearly enough case studies done compared to LeFort clinical studies. Again, like I said, YOU can use BOW/ALF on yourself, but tell me how that goes. Good luck with that. These appliances are tooth-borne by the way.

I feel like you would have done  the same thing years ago when the first marpe was being studied. Say how crazy people are for wanting this and that. Now it's a success.

 I have not criticized it at all. I am criticizing people like YOU who think it's okay to recklessly try to fix your craniofacial complexes with "experiments." It is not evolution. In fact, it's evolution to weed out the dumber people. Anyone with a decent IQ wouldn't even attempt to try this. MSE/MARPE is documented and I am well acquainted with it. I have never criticized anything that was not backed up by a good sample size of case studies and trials. 

Achieving CCW Rotation of the maxilla or not, a BOW appliance or anything thats proven to promote sagittal growth used with MSE should be tried .. If anything that allows for more movement if need be. Upwards or not. More studies. Evolution. 

This is ridiculous. Listen to yourself. The only evolution occurring here is that people like you become stupid enough to try things that aren't backed up by a significant number of clinical studies. If I were you, I'd wait. Wait and give it a couple of years. Orthodontics and craniofacial solutions will progress. Give it some time. For now, it's still in the experimental phases.

If there's no people willing to try [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] and potentially damaging this or that at their own ackowledged risk, much like you risk on surgerys you so suggested, you'd just be extracting teeth as a profession in 100 years.

Lol..

Discouraging people isn't educating them. We're all aware of the potential risks. 

Clearly not. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 1:41 pm
Anomaly
Active Member

Here is a link to a pretty bad forum, but it’ll serve a good purpose here just because of one thing. The pictures in them, specifically pictures from Dr. Won Moo ‘s Facebook profile

 

https://looksmax.me/threads/is-mse-fm-treatment-protocol-holy-grail-as-le-fort-iii-alternative.16167/

So I’d like for the person, who is known as UCLAnewbie, to describe to us how this shows several case studies of “chins moving” and how it’s still impossible for ones chin (really, it’s jaw, but whatever) to move while undergoing these procedures? Or how maxillas cannot be protracted forward in cases of people over 14 years of age??

 

Note: I’m assuming the lady who had an extremely short lower jaw had some type of surgery. However, the rest of the cases look like they’re all solely MSE/MSE protraction cases. Just wanted to state that before anybody assumes I think MSE accomplished such facial lengthening on its own.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 1:41 pm
Anomaly
Active Member

Post your credientials @UCLANEWBIE

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 1:48 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

We should appreciate anyone who takes the time to share their expertise here. We can take or leave what they have to say respectfully. Its understandable why someone like @uclanewbie would be concerned by some of the risky, sometimes even desperate, practices people describe here, and while we try to elevate the discourse above the "broscience" of places like lookism, some of that does creep in. We can only post warnings and temper expectations so many times, ultimately people are going to do what they want. At its best, this is a venue where lay people can share information and learn about emerging and alternative methods to improve aspects of their health including breathing, sleep, yes even aesthetic concerns. Lets welcome professionals willing to join the conversation.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 3:37 pm
Anomaly liked
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Apollo

We should appreciate anyone who takes the time to share their expertise here. We can take or leave what they have to say respectfully. Its understandable why someone like @uclanewbie would be concerned by some of the risky, sometimes even desperate, practices people describe here, and while we try to elevate the discourse above the "broscience" of places like lookism, some of that does creep in. We can only post warnings and temper expectations so many times, ultimately people are going to do what they want. At its best, this is a venue where lay people can share information and learn about emerging and alternative methods to improve aspects of their health including breathing, sleep, yes even aesthetic concerns. Lets welcome professionals willing to join the conversation.

 

Can you validate that UCLAnewbie is in fact who the persons says he or she is? Do you welcome this person implying that we’re all idiots for trying certain things that make sense to us and our orthos? Or him/her discrediting the case studies on here because of his or her opinion or according to this so called position of expertise & info that this person claims to attain while posting 0 sources to validate absolutely anything?

 

I mean, if this person conducted themselves as an expert, I would not question so much and would be much more receptive. But the way that this person came on here, as a first time poster at that, it resembled troll like behavior (implying that we’re all idiots, claiming that “this and that” doesn’t work because they know it doesn’t... no need to see any proof just believe them, claiming they are this “big shot” in order to get people to believe them) 

 

If the person had verified their credentials after they took all of that time out to write paragraphs on this forum out of all of this care & concern for our safety, and also took the time out to explain who he or she was in detail, i would have apologized & would have taken them seriously. But instead my request was ignored.

 

Maybe I should change my name and come right back to this forum and play an expert from Harvard and say Mike Mew is my next door neighbor who talks to me every weekend about his top maxilla secrets during poker?

 

Anywho, I have contacted Dr. Moon and I will be verifying this all asap. I have no time or tolerance for trolls or people wanting to go back and fourth for years. You guys can accept them and mess around for years on end if you want to. I am not fond of this type of stuff. This all leads to stagnation and sebseless fear mongering.

 

edit: when I stateted “on here” I was referring to this thread only. I’m not defending any of the subpar treatments or modalities found on here. Just wanted to make that clear

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 4:03 pm
Fknasymetries
Eminent Member

@apollo the only thing making me quite suspicious is how much he employes the term "chad". i have been lurking on this forum for quite a while now and i only saw the word "chad" being used in sentences like "Mewing won't turn you into a chad". That fixation on the term chad is typical of someone coming from lookism.

 

That being said, i see absolutely no reason for flaming someone simply giving his opinion. @varbrah described getting some really noticable changes and said he will post x-rays (and maybe more) once his treatment is done so we will see. Getting angry at @uclanewbie is not going to change how the human body works anyways. I remember that thread from a guy who wanted to create his own bone anchored facepulling device. He linked a study performed on an adult monkey showing his maxilla being successfully moved up and forward so i assume MSE+FM might work on adults too

 

Oh and from personal experience with assymetrical palate and severe midline discrepency, my right cheekbone is looking MUCH MUCH MUCH wider/strong/robust/projected and higher than my left one which seems to be practically unexistent (unless i try to suck on my cheeks really really really hard. just saying, maybe this info can help some ppls here.

 

EDIT: @anomaly 's skepticism and asking for proofs is totally justified too imo. @toushiroo303's imput coming in such a short period of time is also quite suspicious. Being wrong is fine, however if @uclanewbie is volountary spreading misinformation and lying about his status, that's 100% ban worthy if you ask me and a disgusting behaviour. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 4:21 pm
Anomaly liked
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: UCLAnewbie
Posted by: Roflcopters

I think all of us know and have read that Mse plus fm isnt magically going to rotate an adults maxilla ccw @uclanewbie lol. The whole point is trying it under supervised people that want to change things up and continue evolving so we have solutions for ourselves and other people. 

Maybe you know, but a lot of people on this forum seem to actually magically believe that. It is not safe to NOT consult an orthodontic professional when dealing with craniofacial complexes. You can really mess up your face. In the end, this is all speculation and theory on this forum by people who are not accredited in this field. There is no one supervising you, all these methods are not researched or test to the point of extent where random people can just be using them. I have come across things such as "face-pulling" on this forum that is completely ridiculous. There is no way to inject enough force without bone-anchored implants to even move the maxilla. Furthermore, this has not been tested drastically on adults. You have kids coming on to this forum from the internet, and the emergence of "mewing", where they will think these appliances can cause their face to change drastically, but it is DANGEROUS. 

I feel like yes, OK.. You could be preventing people doing some damaging stuff  to their faces and thanks for that but overall.. 

Overall what? I am just giving a heads up notice. The reality is, this is dangerous. Listen, if you want to install a face-mask without an orthodontic professional to "experiment" on yourself, you can do it. Nobody is stopping you. I am just trying to give clarification for all those people who are new to this field, that this is not SAFE. And for all the kids/teenagers that will be influenced to go on this forum and think this is a solution. Again, use this to your discretion. You are going to realize the effects of damaging your face, and it will be too late. 

Your negative towards errythang attitude is bad anyways. It's not like people here are that uneducated.. 

People are uneducated and reckless on this forum. Again, not trying to be negative. Just stating facts. If you want to risk [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up your face, you can do it. Nobody is stopping you.

It's not like a Le Fort isnt dangerous, it's alot more dangerous then applying slow forces to your palate with BOW or an Alf lmao. 

First of all, I never said Le fort wasn't dangerous? I just stated Le Fort is the only way we KNOW in the orthodontic community to clearly rotate the maxilla counter-clockwise and have major effects on the face,  backed up by research, trials, and studies. None of the BOW/ALF/DNA or any of these appliances have nearly enough case studies done compared to LeFort clinical studies. Again, like I said, YOU can use BOW/ALF on yourself, but tell me how that goes. Good luck with that. These appliances are tooth-borne by the way.

I feel like you would have done  the same thing years ago when the first marpe was being studied. Say how crazy people are for wanting this and that. Now it's a success.

 I have not criticized it at all. I am criticizing people like YOU who think it's okay to recklessly try to fix your craniofacial complexes with "experiments." It is not evolution. In fact, it's evolution to weed out the dumber people. Anyone with a decent IQ wouldn't even attempt to try this. MSE/MARPE is documented and I am well acquainted with it. I have never criticized anything that was not backed up by a good sample size of case studies and trials. 

Achieving CCW Rotation of the maxilla or not, a BOW appliance or anything thats proven to promote sagittal growth used with MSE should be tried .. If anything that allows for more movement if need be. Upwards or not. More studies. Evolution. 

This is ridiculous. Listen to yourself. The only evolution occurring here is that people like you become stupid enough to try things that aren't backed up by a significant number of clinical studies. If I were you, I'd wait. Wait and give it a couple of years. Orthodontics and craniofacial solutions will progress. Give it some time. For now, it's still in the experimental phases.

If there's no people willing to try [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] and potentially damaging this or that at their own ackowledged risk, much like you risk on surgerys you so suggested, you'd just be extracting teeth as a profession in 100 years.

Lol..

Discouraging people isn't educating them. We're all aware of the potential risks. 

Clearly not. 

 

Clearly not taking anything I said the proper way.

You just called me stupid for being pro MSE +Fm. Which is what we are discussing on this thread. 

No one ever mentioned facepulling or thumbpulling or whatever the hell it is. I'm obviously against it. I'm even against what some people call hard mewing and have warned people about it, or tried to lol.. 

I'm not trying to recklessly experiment or advocating it. 

Forum is for discussion. That's what we're doing. 

We were talking about MSE, Alf, BOW etc which are proven to be effective. You also can't get these treatments without medical supervision.. Which I clearly state one should seek. How is going under medical supervision for MSE, FAGGA,ALF etc recklessly experimenting? I mean there are documented cases on the effectiveness of these. 

You re the one projecting your thoughts on aesthetics as if I'm recklessly trying to achieve them.

If the first person to try a Le Fort was advised by you ahumm.. 

BTW. There's a big warning on the top of the forum doing what you did, but better. 

Some1 has to do it. How does one leave the experimental phase if there's no people valuing and believing the work behind these appliances? 

Kids go out and do drugs, kids are experimental, that's how it goes. Again thank you for the warning. Yes there's a lot of reckless people here. There's also a lot of very knowledgeable people here. There's good orthos and bad orthos. There's good and bad everywhere. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 4:26 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Roflcopters
Posted by: UCLAnewbie
Posted by: Roflcopters

I think all of us know and have read that Mse plus fm isnt magically going to rotate an adults maxilla ccw @uclanewbie lol. The whole point is trying it under supervised people that want to change things up and continue evolving so we have solutions for ourselves and other people. 

Maybe you know, but a lot of people on this forum seem to actually magically believe that. It is not safe to NOT consult an orthodontic professional when dealing with craniofacial complexes. You can really mess up your face. In the end, this is all speculation and theory on this forum by people who are not accredited in this field. There is no one supervising you, all these methods are not researched or test to the point of extent where random people can just be using them. I have come across things such as "face-pulling" on this forum that is completely ridiculous. There is no way to inject enough force without bone-anchored implants to even move the maxilla. Furthermore, this has not been tested drastically on adults. You have kids coming on to this forum from the internet, and the emergence of "mewing", where they will think these appliances can cause their face to change drastically, but it is DANGEROUS. 

I feel like yes, OK.. You could be preventing people doing some damaging stuff  to their faces and thanks for that but overall.. 

Overall what? I am just giving a heads up notice. The reality is, this is dangerous. Listen, if you want to install a face-mask without an orthodontic professional to "experiment" on yourself, you can do it. Nobody is stopping you. I am just trying to give clarification for all those people who are new to this field, that this is not SAFE. And for all the kids/teenagers that will be influenced to go on this forum and think this is a solution. Again, use this to your discretion. You are going to realize the effects of damaging your face, and it will be too late. 

Your negative towards errythang attitude is bad anyways. It's not like people here are that uneducated.. 

People are uneducated and reckless on this forum. Again, not trying to be negative. Just stating facts. If you want to risk [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up your face, you can do it. Nobody is stopping you.

It's not like a Le Fort isnt dangerous, it's alot more dangerous then applying slow forces to your palate with BOW or an Alf lmao. 

First of all, I never said Le fort wasn't dangerous? I just stated Le Fort is the only way we KNOW in the orthodontic community to clearly rotate the maxilla counter-clockwise and have major effects on the face,  backed up by research, trials, and studies. None of the BOW/ALF/DNA or any of these appliances have nearly enough case studies done compared to LeFort clinical studies. Again, like I said, YOU can use BOW/ALF on yourself, but tell me how that goes. Good luck with that. These appliances are tooth-borne by the way.

I feel like you would have done  the same thing years ago when the first marpe was being studied. Say how crazy people are for wanting this and that. Now it's a success.

 I have not criticized it at all. I am criticizing people like YOU who think it's okay to recklessly try to fix your craniofacial complexes with "experiments." It is not evolution. In fact, it's evolution to weed out the dumber people. Anyone with a decent IQ wouldn't even attempt to try this. MSE/MARPE is documented and I am well acquainted with it. I have never criticized anything that was not backed up by a good sample size of case studies and trials. 

Achieving CCW Rotation of the maxilla or not, a BOW appliance or anything thats proven to promote sagittal growth used with MSE should be tried .. If anything that allows for more movement if need be. Upwards or not. More studies. Evolution. 

This is ridiculous. Listen to yourself. The only evolution occurring here is that people like you become stupid enough to try things that aren't backed up by a significant number of clinical studies. If I were you, I'd wait. Wait and give it a couple of years. Orthodontics and craniofacial solutions will progress. Give it some time. For now, it's still in the experimental phases.

If there's no people willing to try [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] and potentially damaging this or that at their own ackowledged risk, much like you risk on surgerys you so suggested, you'd just be extracting teeth as a profession in 100 years.

Lol..

Discouraging people isn't educating them. We're all aware of the potential risks. 

Clearly not. 

 

Clearly not taking anything I said the proper way.

You just called me stupid for being pro MSE +Fm. Which is what we are discussing on this thread. 

No one ever mentioned facepulling or thumbpulling or whatever the hell it is. I'm obviously against it. I'm even against what some people call hard mewing and have warned people about it, or tried to lol.. 

I'm not trying to recklessly experiment or advocating it. 

Forum is for discussion. That's what we're doing. 

We were talking about MSE, Alf, BOW etc which are proven to be effective. You also can't get these treatments without medical supervision.. Which I clearly state one should seek. How is going under medical supervision for MSE, FAGGA,ALF etc recklessly experimenting? I mean there are documented cases on the effectiveness of these. 

You re the one projecting your thoughts on aesthetics as if I'm recklessly trying to achieve them.

If the first person to try a Le Fort was advised by you ahumm.. 

BTW. There's a big warning on the top of the forum doing what you did, but better. 

Some1 has to do it. How does one leave the experimental phase if there's no people valuing and believing the work behind these appliances? 

Kids go out and do drugs, kids are experimental, that's how it goes. Again thank you for the warning. Yes there's a lot of reckless people here. There's also a lot of very knowledgeable people here. There's good orthos and bad orthos. There's good and bad everywhere. 

 

Exactly, my friend

 

Just like there’s good and bad everywhere, there’s also up and down. Apparently a face mask can cause downward growth while  utilizing a facemask with perhaps a different angular pull to achieve the opposite effect is IMPOSSIBLE!!!! 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 4:32 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

I guess someone could come on here and pretend to have credentials that they don't have, but I would be more concerned if that person was promoting some great new miracle cure rather than trying to moderate expectations and reaffirm conventional wisdom. If we want people to speak freely and share their personal or professional experience, we shouldn't harass anyone to prove that they are who they say. The anonymity of the internet allows for more candor. Other orthodontists have posted on the forum without giving their name or where they work. We want professionals to be able to share their honest opinions without impacting their careers. I can understand taking offense at being lumped in with the lookism crowd, but I didn't interpret it as trolling. Maybe the "chad" language (which we generally discourage here) could have been in response to the youtube comments where UCLAnewbie said he or she learned about this forum.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 5:25 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Apollo

I guess someone could come on here and pretend to have credentials that they don't have, but I would be more concerned if that person was promoting some great new miracle cure rather than trying to moderate expectations and reaffirm conventional wisdom. If we want people to speak freely and share their personal or professional experience, we shouldn't harass anyone to prove that they are who they say. The anonymity of the internet allows for more candor. Other orthodontists have posted on the forum without giving their name or where they work. We want professionals to be able to share their honest opinions without impacting their careers. I can understand taking offense at being lumped in with the lookism crowd, but I didn't interpret it as trolling. Maybe the "chad" language (which we generally discourage here) could have been in response to the youtube comments where UCLAnewbie said he or she learned about this forum.

I see where you are getting at. However, you are giving this person too much unecessary leverage at this point. This person is here claiming to be working directly with the inventor of possibly the best and last option many people have before resorting to risky, invasive surgery & using that authority to attempt to “debunk” some of the credible evidence that we have gathered and classified to be true in this very thread and on this very forum while doing it in an offesonve way. The least we can ask for are credentials. A person just can’t come on here and claim to be a person of this magnitude who is also working alongside a person of an even bigger magnitude and attempt to switch the consensus of the protocol’s we’ve been focusing on for almost a year with absolutely nothing but opinions that the person is trying to get by as facts. That’s ridiculous. At least prove who you are and validate what you say, I don’t have to like you, but I will respect you and what you have to say if you are credible like you claim to be. That’s all I’m saying. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/06/2019 6:06 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: UCLAnewbie

There seems to be some misconception about the MSE.

I do not know @UCLAnewbie or anything about his background. However, I can confirm some of what he said is true from my discussions with my current orthodontist who practices MSE and another orthodontist friend who some of you know by the username @Sugr2. Dr. Won Moon PDFs also support some of his statements.

As he stated MSE was developed to treat cross bite and congested nasal passages in primarily class 3 patients which is the case with @varbrah. It was not developed to be used in class 1, 2, and 4 such as is the case with the topic starter @futuremodel.

MSE, and especially so when combined with face-mask, can treat very specific conditions and achieve results that are primarily health centered, not esthetics. I have seen some cases treated with MSE and while there is some positive change in the mid face it's not what many of you imagine.

To simplify this imagine expanding your palate by 8mm. You will probably get half that expansion in the zygomatic region. A nice improvement no doubt but I suspect not what you guys are expecting. If you have a hard time visualizing this try searching for cheek bone implant before and after of the same size, 2mm on each side. It will give you a rough idea.

@UCLAnewbie is it possible that you share with us larger size versions of the before and after pictures in Dr. Moon PDF presentation? The existing files are too small to make a meaningful comparison.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 10:11 am
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: UCLAnewbie

There seems to be some misconception about the MSE.

I do not know @UCLAnewbie or anything about his background. However, I can confirm some of what he said is true from my discussions with my current orthodontist who practices MSE and another orthodontist friend who some of you know by the username @Sugr2. Dr. Won Moon PDFs also support some of his statements.

As he stated MSE was developed to treat cross bite and congested nasal passages in primarily class 3 patients which is the case with @varbrah. It was not developed to be used in class 1, 2, and 4 such as is the case with the topic starter @futuremodel.

MSE, and especially so when combined with face-mask, can treat very specific conditions and achieve results that are primarily health centered, not esthetics. I have seen some cases treated with MSE and while there is some positive change in the mid face it's not what many of you imagine.

To simplify this imagine expanding your palate by 8mm. You will probably get half that expansion in the zygomatic region. A nice improvement no doubt but I suspect not what you guys are expecting. If you have a hard time visualizing this try searching for cheek bone implant before and after of the same size, 2mm on each side. It will give you a rough idea.

@UCLAnewbie is it possible that you share with us larger size versions of the before and after pictures in Dr. Moon PDF presentation? The existing files are too small to make a meaningful comparison.

What futuremodel wanted to do was expand a lot more than even Varbrah, and theoretically, if he would have been able to find an ortho that was alright with going forward with his plans,  he could have achieved some serious aesthetic results. Results like how Varbrah has said to have achieved, maybe more. I think a lot of the adult cases that you guys speak of have not been treated with MSE alongside a FP aspect to the treatment. I checked a paper with an asian looking dude, a few kids I believe, and a 42 year old lady. None of the adults on that paper were reported to undergo FP in conjunction with MSE. Onl the children were. I’ll try to find the article to show you guys.

So I know that this was originally created for class 3, however it is now established enough to be used for class 2. Many orthos now cater to class 2 patients. Varbrah was not class 3 he was class 1.

 

Now, what did annoy me about this person who claims to be a part of Won Moon’s team was, he or she came on here and made this treatment seem like it will produce no  aesthetic affects, for whatever reason. He or she even said that even the smile is slightly obvious after expanding, which is not true at all lol. Going from having huge gaps on each corner of ones mouth to having an entire 10 tooth smile is a slight change? Come on lol. A wider midface is a slight change? Then he implies that FP with MSE doesn’t work? That’s ridiculous and that’s why I asked for his or her credentials, because I know for a fact that certain things he or she was saying was wrong. One of the things he or she also said was that the jaw doesn’t auto rotate forward... but if you look at Won Moon’s page you’ll see examples of exactky that taking place in patients over 14 years of age and well into adulthood. So I don’t believe this person one bit, at all. I will believe once I see credentials, or once I get word back from Won Moon. Not to mention there was a whole experiment done on an adult monkey was it?  Who was able to achieve up and forward CCW rotation of the maxilla.  We share about 97% similar genes to primates, so this is a serious case study and it makes me believe that FP does work without a doubt, maybe even without MSE if done long term, but for sure with something like MSE. We have seen experiments like with Plato and patient Zero where favepulling worked alongside NCR to achieve great aesthetic results like how Varbrah claims to have achieve on here,. I’ve seen photographic evidence on his website and X ray pictures as well. We’ve seen Dr. Dean Howell report  1 cm forward growth in a male patient  from undergoing NCR and face pulling simultaneously.  How can people just ignore this Because there is “no substantial research” at the moment? That’s what leads to stagnation like a gentlemen implied on here yesterday 

 

NOTE: I’ve read SUGR’s stuff and he is amazing. He is very helpful and is an out of the box thinker, which is what we need. He even touches on how body posture can shift cranial bones which is 100% true. He would 1000% agree that the lower jaw moving forward can be seen in many of these orthodontic practices and it isn’t such a gray area like how people are making it out to be. For example, I’ve seen him touch on how chronic  splint users become more class III after undergoing splint treatment for a decent period of time. Which makes great sense. Wolf’s law. This is why I would imagine someone like futuremode obtaining the results he is looking for, or at least close to it, if he were to combine MSE+FP and maybe a trombone appliance/FAGGA for the lower jaw. This is theoretically posible for obtaining results like the ones futuremodel wishes to obtain and I can imagine way safer and more effective than something like Leforr 1-3 surgery can provide. Way more natural looking too.

 

as for the CCW, how do people like UCLAnewbie say something like “it’s not possible to change the jaws” but a FM can contribute to vertical growth? That’s pretty hypocritical to say. To me, if you tweaked the angular paw of the FM and did something like I’ll make Milo used to do with his face pulling device (pull up) then you should create the CCW pull. Why wouldn’t you? We keep on forgetting about the basic  fundamentals here. Muscles and long-term forces move bone.  Bones remodel according to these forces and skeletal bones have been proven to move as well. I don’t see what the problem is here

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 10:51 am
Sceriff liked
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: UCLAnewbie

There seems to be some misconception about the MSE.

I am a 1st year UCLA resident and work in Moon's department, and I stumbled across this forum after I saw a video on "tongue posture on youtube" that went viral that showed this forum, and went to check it out. Everything on this forum is wrong. The information is wrong. I am here  to tell you guys so you don't screw up your face by listening to some "dude" who tells MSE can make you look like a "chad."Excuse my bad grammar/english, I studied in Korea and moved here for grad school.

I want to straighten some things out so you guys don't end up screwing up your face. Always consult a medical professional first. 

1.) Facemask and MSE combination CANNOT move the maxilla CCW (up+fowards) from what we've been able to test so far. The paper that was done is showing a simulation, and was part of a student master project at UCLA a few years ago. I have actually personally spoke with one of the author's of that paper, and he says that he does not know of ANY orthodontist who has actually done any real trials of that. Moreover, there seems to be the notion that you guys think you can do it with a facemask alone. This is impossible by itself. In order to even try to simulate that paper, you need an extra mini-implant (N2 mini-implant) which is still being developed for trials. This is also a lot to put somebody through. You have to anchor implants onto the bone. Very very painful. Regular facemask causes CLOCKWISE (downwards growth) and will result in vertical lengthening and a gummy smile. Look at all our case trials published, most of them have had downward growth. Moon himself even personally does not know ANYBODY who has been able to rotate CCW. The only en route right now to rotate CCW is Lefort 1. And even then, this is very small. CCW could be possible at a very young age with facemask, but for adolescents, and adults, its very very hard and nearly impossible. I cannot fathom even the fact that people are trying to install face-masks themselves with a professional orthodontist opinion, and think they can rotate their maxilla CCW when Moon himself has not even been able to do this..

2.) MSE dis-articulates the suture and disrupts the pterygoid junctions, causing a parallel split and a widening of the face theoretically, but this is not that noticeable in real life. Everyone on this forum is acting like it will develop you into some "chad" dude, but you will not look that different. All the patients that we have and the patients we have treated, will have slightly wider smile as a noticeable difference, but do NOT have super noticeably wider cheekbones, better jawline, etc. Your chin WILL NOT move forwards, your face will NOT shorten from the MSE. These are all genetic factors. Not to farce on mewing or tongue posture, it is not bogus. However, we implement myofunctional therapy at a young age (8-10 years old), tongue posture and proper swallowing will help correct the base at an adult age, but it will not change your craniofacial complex most likely if you are after the age of 14. All those "mewing" pictures are just an increase in the masseter muscle from gum chewing. There is no change in the maxilla. You can confirm a CBCT to even see this for firm proof if you do not believe me.

The reason Moon designed MSE was mainly for AIRWAY. If you are contemplating using MSE to look better "aesthetically" you should NOT be using this appliance. Like I said, it does not do that much for physical appearance. We use MSE to treat cross-bites, transverse and AP discrepancies, and cases with obstructive sleep apnea. Not for people to look like a "chad." IT WILL NOT MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE A CHAD. I have seen over 150 cases before and after, and none of them look like a "Lefort" transformation.

Again, PLEASE consult a professional orthodontist. There is a reason why they are trained for so long. If you do not trust them because they are "extraction" orthos, go to another one and ask him for his/her opinion. For the love of god, do not try to install a "palate expander" or a custom-made "facemask" on yourself hoping you can fix all your craniofacial deficiences. It will not help and might screw up your face.  

 

Thanks for posting a professional opinion. Please update us if you have any findings or new information on how to achieve the holy grail apart from Le Fort III.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 11:01 am
Anomaly
Active Member

Also, UCLAnewbie, I do apologize for coming at you the way I did. I forgive you for coming off as disrespectful. Water under the bridge. However, I do have to admit that I find it odd that you have ignored me after asking for your credentials, after openly stating you work with Won Moon. That’s a big claim, and you should always expect somebody to want to verify that, especially after making a huge claim about how the treatment works and going against the grain on this thread.

 

I’d also be open to hearing about the N2 implant, but only after I see credentials. I still believe that MSE+FP would suffice and the only way I would find myself thinking differently is if I can veryify that you are in fact a professional. I have read way too much to let a vague claim like this change my stature (no pun intended)

 

if you can can please provide us with some sort of verification, that would be highly appreciated. I have contacted Won Moon but he is very busy. I’m thinking about not even mentioning this to him and just asking questions for myself, and for you guys. I’m plannibg to pay him for an online consulstion. So assuming he’s cool with it, can you guys compile some questions for me? I’ll ask them all if I can.   I’m not sure  if he will do this with me, however I will definitely ask the questions you guys compile on here if he does cater to my request 

 

Anomaly

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 11:13 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: Anomaly
Posted by: Roflcopters

I think all of us know and have read that Mse plus fm isnt magically going to rotate an adults maxilla ccw @uclanewbie lol. The whole point is trying it under supervised people that want to change things up and continue evolving so we have solutions for ourselves and other people. 

I feel like yes, OK.. You could be preventing people doing some damaging stuff  to their faces and thanks for that but overall.. 

Your negative towards errythang attitude is bad anyways. It's not like people here are that uneducated.. 

It's not like a Le Fort isnt dangerous, it's alot more dangerous then applying slow forces to your palate with BOW or an Alf lmao. 

I feel like you would have done  the same thing years ago when the first marpe was being studied. Say how crazy people are for wanting this and that. Now it's a success.

Aesthetics or not MSE's beneficial and people here are aware of the benefits, anesthetics are just a plus.

Achieving CCW Rotation of the maxilla or not, a BOW appliance or anything thats proven to promote sagittal growth used with MSE should be tried .. If anything that allows for more movement if need be. Upwards or not. More studies. Evolution. 

It's the first post I see from you here and I'm 100 percent sure all of the others are going to be discrediting others people work or having a stale and discouraging opinion on things and people here. 

If there's no people willing to try [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] and potentially damaging this or that at their own ackowledged risk, much like you risk on surgerys you so suggested, you'd just be extracting teeth as a profession in 100 years.

Discouraging people isn't educating them. We're all aware of the potential risks. 

Exactly. Not to mention, this person is probably a troll from looksism. There’s no way a person of that stature would be posting on here, especially the way the person posted. UCLAnewbie claimed that you cannot (I repeat, CANNOT) change the cranio facial region as an adult at all and that these are changes only genentics can establish, however, also according to UCLAnewbie, the case studies that he/she has seen have had vertical growth changes? What?

Why wouldn't they?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 11:16 am
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust
Posted by: Anomaly
Posted by: Roflcopters

I think all of us know and have read that Mse plus fm isnt magically going to rotate an adults maxilla ccw @uclanewbie lol. The whole point is trying it under supervised people that want to change things up and continue evolving so we have solutions for ourselves and other people. 

I feel like yes, OK.. You could be preventing people doing some damaging stuff  to their faces and thanks for that but overall.. 

Your negative towards errythang attitude is bad anyways. It's not like people here are that uneducated.. 

It's not like a Le Fort isnt dangerous, it's alot more dangerous then applying slow forces to your palate with BOW or an Alf lmao. 

I feel like you would have done  the same thing years ago when the first marpe was being studied. Say how crazy people are for wanting this and that. Now it's a success.

Aesthetics or not MSE's beneficial and people here are aware of the benefits, anesthetics are just a plus.

Achieving CCW Rotation of the maxilla or not, a BOW appliance or anything thats proven to promote sagittal growth used with MSE should be tried .. If anything that allows for more movement if need be. Upwards or not. More studies. Evolution. 

It's the first post I see from you here and I'm 100 percent sure all of the others are going to be discrediting others people work or having a stale and discouraging opinion on things and people here. 

If there's no people willing to try [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] and potentially damaging this or that at their own ackowledged risk, much like you risk on surgerys you so suggested, you'd just be extracting teeth as a profession in 100 years.

Discouraging people isn't educating them. We're all aware of the potential risks. 

Exactly. Not to mention, this person is probably a troll from looksism. There’s no way a person of that stature would be posting on here, especially the way the person posted. UCLAnewbie claimed that you cannot (I repeat, CANNOT) change the cranio facial region as an adult at all and that these are changes only genentics can establish, however, also according to UCLAnewbie, the case studies that he/she has seen have had vertical growth changes? What?

Why wouldn't they?

I kind of meant to just say that nobody of that stature would be coming on here conducting themselves like that. Still mean that too. Take a look at his posts. They’re somewhat unprofessional. Check SUGR1’s posts, they’re 100% professional.  Be my guest and compare the vernacular within the text.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 11:45 am
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: UCLAnewbie

There seems to be some misconception about the MSE.

I do not know @UCLAnewbie or anything about his background. However, I can confirm some of what he said is true from my discussions with my current orthodontist who practices MSE and another orthodontist friend who some of you know by the username @Sugr2. Dr. Won Moon PDFs also support some of his statements.

As he stated MSE was developed to treat cross bite and congested nasal passages in primarily class 3 patients which is the case with @varbrah. It was not developed to be used in class 1, 2, and 4 such as is the case with the topic starter @futuremodel.

MSE, and especially so when combined with face-mask, can treat very specific conditions and achieve results that are primarily health centered, not esthetics. I have seen some cases treated with MSE and while there is some positive change in the mid face it's not what many of you imagine.

To simplify this imagine expanding your palate by 8mm. You will probably get half that expansion in the zygomatic region. A nice improvement no doubt but I suspect not what you guys are expecting. If you have a hard time visualizing this try searching for cheek bone implant before and after of the same size, 2mm on each side. It will give you a rough idea.

@UCLAnewbie is it possible that you share with us larger size versions of the before and after pictures in Dr. Moon PDF presentation? The existing files are too small to make a meaningful comparison.

 Hey man, I’ve tried to see pictures of the before and after 2 mm cheek implants, but I just can’t find any photos regarding this.  Hey man, I’ve tried to seek pictures of a before and after 2 mm cheek implants, but I just can’t find any photos regarding this. Also, you said that one could gain approximately Half of how much they’ve expanded. So, if you expanded transversely by 8 mm would in that equates to 4 m Half of how much they’ve expanded. So, if you expanded transversely by 8 mm wouldn’t that equate to 4 mm instead of 2mm? Or were you just asking us to conduct a general search in order for us to gain a better perspective?

 

Another question, how did you come up with the 1/2 figure? Also, I’m assuming that that goes for  facial protraction gains as well, right?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 1:03 pm
UCLAnewbie
Active Member

Hello everyone,

I want to address several things. I apologize for grammar and English mistakes.

1.) I am not doing any cases analyses. Many of you have been messaging me and offering me payment, but I am NOT accepting any form of payment. If you want advice on your situation and circumstances, I can try to help. Again, I am not an official orthodontist and am only a first year resident. However, I have the knowledge to know at least that everything being said on here is misleading. My main reason for coming on this forum to prevent kids from messing up their faces because of methods they see online. Since the boom of "mewing", many kids and adolescents have been exposes to forums and tried to find ways to alter their face drastically and dangerously. I am simply trying to prevent this from happening because it is dangerous. You do not have to listen to me if you do not want to. Again, like @apollo said, I am not coming on this forum to offer any miracle cure or selling you guys any products to improve your face. I am simply trying to offer some  wisdom and words of caution. The information I provide to you is optional for you to take. I will remain anonymous for various reasons, and am not going to post my credentials because it risks exposing my identity. Again, if you do not want to listen, you don't have to. 

2.) I understand many of you are frustrated because airway orthodontistry has only begun to surface recently. Many of you are adults who have irreversible lifetime side effects from mouth-breathing, bad posture, or some of it is just inevitable genetics. I understand. Many of you are also trying to compensate that by doing whatever it takes to reverse these effects. I understand. A lifetime of poor sleep and other factors can drive people to do this. Every second is harsh. However, do NOT try to recklessly experiment with appliances and methods to make up for these deficiencies. The best thing you can all do for now, is to consult a professional. Again, I cannot STRESS how important this is. If you do not do this, you risk messing up your face and life even more.

3.) If you do NOT believe in me or any of the information I have stated in my previous posts, please take the time to ask any orthodontist that is qualified with the MSE. Even feel free to contact Won Moon directly to verify that the information I have stated is true. It is fine. Dr. Moon will confirm what I have said. I guarantee it.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 1:24 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
andPosted by: UCLAnewbie

Hello everyone,

I want to address several things. I apologize for grammar and English mistakes.

1.) I am not doing any cases analyses. Many of you have been messaging me and offering me payment, but I am NOT accepting any form of payment. If you want advice on your situation and circumstances, I can try to help. Again, I am not an official orthodontist and am only a first year resident. However, I have the knowledge to know at least that everything being said on here is misleading. My main reason for coming on this forum to prevent kids from messing up their faces because of methods they see online. Since the boom of "mewing", many kids and adolescents have been exposes to forums and tried to find ways to alter their face drastically and dangerously. I am simply trying to prevent this from happening because it is dangerous. You do not have to listen to me if you do not want to. Again, like @apollo said, I am not coming on this forum to offer any miracle cure or selling you guys any products to improve your face. I am simply trying to offer some  wisdom and words of caution. The information I provide to you is optional for you to take. I will remain anonymous for various reasons, and am not going to post my credentials because it risks exposing my identity. Again, if you do not want to listen, you don't have to. 

2.) I understand many of you are frustrated because airway orthodontistry has only begun to surface recently. Many of you are adults who have irreversible lifetime side effects from mouth-breathing, bad posture, or some of it is just inevitable genetics. I understand. Many of you are also trying to compensate that by doing whatever it takes to reverse these effects. I understand. A lifetime of poor sleep and other factors can drive people to do this. Every second is harsh. However, do NOT try to recklessly experiment with appliances and methods to make up for these deficiencies. The best thing you can all do for now, is to consult a professional. Again, I cannot STRESS how important this is. If you do not do this, you risk messing up your face and life even more.

3.) If you do NOT believe in me or any of the information I have stated in my previous posts, please take the time to ask any orthodontist that is qualified with the MSE. Even feel free to contact Won Moon directly to verify that the information I have stated is true. It is fine. Dr. Moon will confirm what I have said. I guarantee it.

Okay, so you’re not an ortho, nor have you verified who you are. Got it. No need to continue with this topic 

 

Anyways, there are orthos who agree with what’s being said here. That’s the main point on why some of us feel offended by how you’re trying to discredit everything. Varbrah underwent this treatment under an orthos cate and got the results you’re claiming are impossible, so what’s the deal?  But of course, to you he’s just “some dude” and since you’re a student from UCLA, you’re right and he’s lying about his results. 

 

I mean, I guess man. I’ll speak to Won Moon, I don’t think he’s going to confirm several things that you have said simply because some results on his page show certain results that you say are impossible. He may say he doesn’t know yet, but I do doubt he’s gonna tell me any of what you said is set in stone. You’re way too conservative even for Won Moon imo. If Won Moon wasn’t an outside of the box thinker he would’ve never discovered this therapy. I’ve already had a VERY brief chat with Mike Mew in the past and you remind me of some of the ortho’s that he refers to as basically “too conservative”, people who stick to the dogmatic research from the past and will always be  stagnant because the current research we have does not allow us to go any further than where we’re at today.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 1:40 pm
UCLAnewbie
Active Member
 
Posted by: Anomaly

 Hey man, I’ve tried to see pictures of the before and after 2 mm cheek implants, but I just can’t find any photos regarding this.  Hey man, I’ve tried to seek pictures of a before and after 2 mm cheek implants, but I just can’t find any photos regarding this. Also, you said that one could gain approximately Half of how much they’ve expanded. So, if you expanded transversely by 8 mm would in that equates to 4 m Half of how much they’ve expanded. So, if you expanded transversely by 8 mm wouldn’t that equate to 4 mm instead of 2mm? Or were you just asking us to conduct a general search in order for us to gain a better perspective?

Another question, how did you come up with the 1/2 figure? Also, I’m assuming that that goes for  facial protraction gains as well, right?

You are overthinking this. He is just referencing a theoretical scenario showing that the MSE does not enhance your face by that much. 

Posted by: Anomaly

" I’m plannibg to pay him for an online consulstion. So assuming he’s cool with it, can you guys compile some questions for me? I’ll ask them all if I can.   I’m not sure  if he will do this with me, however I will definitely ask the questions you guys compile on here if he does cater to my request "

Moon does not do online personal consultations for money. Please do not ask him for this. The professor is doing conference calls and seminars for the AAO and around the world. He does not have the time to analyze personal consultations via online. You can choose to ask him questions about research, which I am sure he will be gladly to answer. I believe the professor is also trying to clear up misconceptions about the MSE, so he is willing to help, because many people like you, think it can make amazing and drastic aesthetic changes. It cannot. It is for airway, not looks. As I have stated, you can choose to verify with him the information I have provided, or you can as a matter of fact try to email any professional to confirm that the information I have provided is true. 

I want to add, it seems like you specifically @Anomaly have a lot of trivial questions to ask. I would not advise asking them and do your research thoroughly again. Moon does not have all the time in the world to answer every little single question you have. He is willing to answer valid questions. To me, it seems like you have not done any research on this at all. 

Mike Mew is mainly known to be a lecturer and not an orthodontist or researcher. What he has invented, essentially, "mewing" has been referred to as myofunctional therapy for a while in the professional orthodontic community. Daniel Garliner was actually the original one to release information about this in 1976. Mew has just popularized for this modern day. He has not invented anything new. Most of the MSE and airway practicioners, in fact, do not even know who he is. He is not in regarded at all in orthodontic community. He does not have the knowledge or skills to be criticizing other orthodontic professionals.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 2:11 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: UCLAnewbie
 
Posted by: Anomaly

 Hey man, I’ve tried to see pictures of the before and after 2 mm cheek implants, but I just can’t find any photos regarding this.  Hey man, I’ve tried to seek pictures of a before and after 2 mm cheek implants, but I just can’t find any photos regarding this. Also, you said that one could gain approximately Half of how much they’ve expanded. So, if you expanded transversely by 8 mm would in that equates to 4 m Half of how much they’ve expanded. So, if you expanded transversely by 8 mm wouldn’t that equate to 4 mm instead of 2mm? Or were you just asking us to conduct a general search in order for us to gain a better perspective?

Another question, how did you come up with the 1/2 figure? Also, I’m assuming that that goes for  facial protraction gains as well, right?

You are overthinking this. He is just referencing a theoretical scenario showing that the MSE does not enhance your face by that much. 

Posted by: Anomaly

" I’m plannibg to pay him for an online consulstion. So assuming he’s cool with it, can you guys compile some questions for me? I’ll ask them all if I can.   I’m not sure  if he will do this with me, however I will definitely ask the questions you guys compile on here if he does cater to my request "

Moon does not do online personal consultations for money. Please do not ask him for this. The professor is doing conference calls and seminars for the AAO and around the world. He does not have the time to analyze personal consultations via online. You can choose to ask him questions about research, which I am sure he will be gladly to answer. I believe the professor is also trying to clear up misconceptions about the MSE, so he is willing to help, because many people like you, think it can make amazing and drastic aesthetic changes. It cannot. It is for airway, not looks. As I have stated, you can choose to verify with him the information I have provided, or you can as a matter of fact try to email any professional to confirm that the information I have provided is true. 

I want to add, it seems like you specifically @Anomaly have a lot of trivial questions to ask. I would not advise asking them and do your research thoroughly again. Moon does not have all the time in the world to answer every little single question you have. He is willing to answer valid questions. To me, it seems like you have not done any research on this at all. 

Mike Mew is mainly known to be a lecturer and not an orthodontist or researcher. What he has invented, essentially, "mewing" has been referred to as myofunctional therapy for a while in the professional orthodontic community. Daniel Garliner was actually the original one to release information about this in 1976. Mew has just popularized for this modern day. He has not invented anything new. Most of the MSE and airway practicioners, in fact, do not even know who he is. He is not in regarded at all in orthodontic community. In fact, I believe Mew tried to install an MSE and failed drastically one time. He does not have the knowledge or skills to be criticizing other orthodontic professionals.

Right, Mew definitely doesn’t. You, a student, does. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 2:30 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

I'm a class 3. If anyone knows how wanting to fix it while being careful and patient for a treatment that has potential, i sure as hell do.

Surgery's look unnatural, the change is something that isn't gradual, soft tissue wont adapt the same way, it's dangerous, painful,  and i don't want a general anesthesia for obvious reasons. If it goes wrong it goes really [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] wrong and theres no no way of fixing it.

And it's not the type of treatment i want. Orthognatic surgerys long term stability case studies you also don't see much and from what ive seen theres alot of transverse relapse and vertical growth on the maxilla after the procedure.. what about the teeth nerves? bone loss with age? how many cases are probably hiding under the water that are messed up and nobody talks about?  i'd say it is probably more dangerous then  installing an MSE with FM on a class 3 that needs it. If a FM doesn't work it's reverseable if we maintain an eye on it. This forum was made for discussion and that's what we're doing. 

I take opinions really well but a UCLA student tats studying with Won Moon calling somebody stupid for looking into a treatment that's got a huge potential is just [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]. If anything he should come up with knowledgeable ways of dissuading people if he's that worried. Not "IT'S DANGEROUS, I REPEAT".

If you have the knowledge fking share it, it's the best way of prevention. That's what the stupid [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] here would do. People looking into something thats new and has alot of potential is normal.

As for the other stuff he was worried about, everyone is. Not like it's groundbreaking news. look at the top of the page. Kids coming here and potentially trying belt pulling and what not is dangerous and it's something i'd probably ban from the forums but than again..the rate of kids that try an lsd tab and flip on it is most likely much higher. Not that we shouldn't prevent, but it's really just how it is.

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Posted : 02/06/2019 2:52 pm
Anomaly liked
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Roflcopters

I'm a class 3. If anyone knows how wanting to fix it while being careful and patient for a treatment that has potential, i sure as hell do.

Surgery's look unnatural, the change is something that isn't gradual, soft tissue wont adapt the same way, it's dangerous, painful,  and i don't want a general anesthesia for obvious reasons. If it goes wrong it goes really [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] wrong and theres no no way of fixing it.

And it's not the type of treatment i want. Orthognatic surgerys long term stability case studies you also don't see much and from what ive seen theres alot of transverse relapse and vertical growth on the maxilla after the procedure.. what about the teeth nerves? bone loss with age? how many cases are probably hiding under the water that are messed up and nobody talks about?  i'd say it is probably more dangerous then  installing an MSE with FM on a class 3 that needs it. If a FM doesn't work it's reverseable if we maintain an eye on it. This forum was made for discussion and that's what we're doing. 

I take opinions really well but a UCLA student tats studying with Won Moon calling somebody stupid for looking into a treatment that's got a huge potential is just [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]. If anything he should come up with knowledgeable ways of dissuading people if he's that worried. Not "IT'S DANGEROUS, I REPEAT".

If you have the knowledge fking share it, it's the best way of prevention. That's what the stupid [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] here would do. People looking into something thats new and has alot of potential is normal.

As for the other stuff he was worried about, everyone is. Not like it's groundbreaking news. look at the top of the page. Kids coming here and potentially trying belt pulling and what not is dangerous and it's something i'd probably ban from the forums but than again..the rate of kids that try an lsd tab and flip on it is most likely much higher. Not that we shouldn't prevent, but it's really just how it is.

I just wonder what this person will say when Varbrah shows his X Ray results. You’re right, this person is just here to fear monger and also to provide no solution whatsoever. The usual “irreversible, no cure etc” BS that we’ve ran from and gotten over on by experimentation (experimental cases help facilitate studies) so this person is pretty much doing the same exact thing a new random member would do with a therapy that has no validity or merit. It leads to nothing and takes ur around in circles. We know today that muscles/lightweight long term forces move bone. We know about wolfs law and many other things. Many fairly good devices have emerged  in courtesy of our specific  crowd pushing for it with experimental cases and concepts and people like UCLAnewbie often times try to put an end to it, which causes stagnation.

 

once Varbrah’s X-rays come in and verify the changes he has reported, I guess this person will give the usual robotic response of “its just a case study, nothing more” but what people don’t realize is that we’re going on a handful or two of these well established case studies now. Some of them involve NO MSE, whether he or she likes it or not. Waste of time. Probably not even from UCLA....I’m over it from here on out.

 

Moral of the story, if you aren’t going to provide any value, you are NOT helping, especially when you are just repeating yourself about something we all know, or hear from our ORTHOS (not aspired orthos)

 

Sorry, all, for hijacking the thread. It was not it intention to do so.

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Posted : 02/06/2019 3:08 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Anomaly

I kind of meant to just say that nobody of that stature would be coming on here conducting themselves like that. Still mean that too. Take a look at his posts. They’re somewhat unprofessional. Check SUGR1’s posts, they’re 100% professional.  Be my guest and compare the vernacular within the text.

You should have seen how David Buck from LVI went off on @TGW for asking for x-rays that show FAGGA growth. Trust me, it's more common than you think.

As for @Sugr2, he is such an uncommon professional to even bother communicating with forum users. He is the anomaly in every positive way. 

Regarding your other question, the example I am providing is to help you understand the expansion effect on the esthetics of the mid face. It's not exact just an approximation based on my observation of MSE cases that I reviewed. One thing is certain the lateral expansion that takes place in the zygomatice arches is less than in the palate where MSE is installed. By my estimation it's somewhere around half.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 03/06/2019 12:41 am
GoTTi liked
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: MSE Merchant

@Abdulrahman

MSE + FM is ideal for those with a some combination of a narrow maxilla and maxillary retrusion, including your typical class 3's. My lower jaw is wider than my upper jaw, making the bottom molars tip inwards to meet the teeth in the upper jaw, so widening the mandibular arch won't be a problem in my case -- and the point is that ideal candidates for MSE aren't expanding their maxillas past the natural limit, more like undoing the effects of a lifetime of mouthbreathing and dog [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] orthodontics through growth modification.

 

ATTENTION EVERYONE

I think there is some misunderstanding in this topic.

@varbrah is in fact class 3 and he explains that in the quote above.

@UCLAnewbie made it clear from the beginning that MSE is for class 3.

I don't see where the problem is.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 03/06/2019 1:04 am
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: MSE Merchant

@Abdulrahman

MSE + FM is ideal for those with a some combination of a narrow maxilla and maxillary retrusion, including your typical class 3's. My lower jaw is wider than my upper jaw, making the bottom molars tip inwards to meet the teeth in the upper jaw, so widening the mandibular arch won't be a problem in my case -- and the point is that ideal candidates for MSE aren't expanding their maxillas past the natural limit, more like undoing the effects of a lifetime of mouthbreathing and dog [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] orthodontics through growth modification.

 

ATTENTION EVERYONE

I think there is some misunderstanding in this topic.

@varbrah is in fact class 3 and he explains that in the quote above.

@UCLAnewbie made it clear from the beginning that MSE is for class 3.

I don't see where the problem is.

The problem is that he was in fact a class 1 and not class 3. Varbrah has stated this himself on the thread I’ve provided a link to.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/what-are-the-pros-and-cons-of-bimax-surgery/

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Posted : 03/06/2019 1:30 am
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Anomaly

I kind of meant to just say that nobody of that stature would be coming on here conducting themselves like that. Still mean that too. Take a look at his posts. They’re somewhat unprofessional. Check SUGR1’s posts, they’re 100% professional.  Be my guest and compare the vernacular within the text.

You should have seen how David Buck from LVI went off on @TGW for asking for x-rays that show FAGGA growth. Trust me, it's more common than you think.

As for @Sugr2, he is such an uncommon professional to even bother communicating with forum users. He is the anomaly in every positive way. 

Regarding your other question, the example I am providing is to help you understand the expansion effect on the esthetics of the mid face. It's not exact just an approximation based on my observation of MSE cases that I reviewed. One thing is certain the lateral expansion that takes place in the zygomatice arches is less than in the palate where MSE is installed. By my estimation it's somewhere around half.

So if you expand a cm, that would induce about 5cm of zygo expansion. That’s a lot actually. Definite aesthetic changes. I do wonder about the second implant appliance newbie was referring to which he said may gain test subjects true ccw rotation, I wouldn’t mind his skepticism towards every single appliance and treatment on here as long as he can shed some light on that haha.

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Posted : 03/06/2019 1:38 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: GoTTi

The problem is that he was in fact a class 1 and not class 3. Varbrah has stated this himself on the thread I’ve provided a link to.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/what-are-the-pros-and-cons-of-bimax-surgery/

Where in that link do you Varbrah saying he is class 1? Because I just posted for everyone a direct quote from him that is the fourth post in this very same topic stating clearly that he is class 3. I am reposting it down below for you with the link:

Posted by: MSE Merchant

@Abdulrahman

MSE + FM is ideal for those with a some combination of a narrow maxilla and maxillary retrusion, including your typical class 3's. My lower jaw is wider than my upper jaw, making the bottom molars tip inwards to meet the teeth in the upper jaw, so widening the mandibular arch won't be a problem in my case -- and the point is that ideal candidates for MSE aren't expanding their maxillas past the natural limit, more like undoing the effects of a lifetime of mouthbreathing and dog [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] orthodontics through growth modification.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/possibly-new-holy-grail-for-moving-the-maxilla-up-and-forwards/#post-7949

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 03/06/2019 2:41 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: GoTTi

So if you expand a cm, that would induce about 5cm of zygo expansion. That’s a lot actually. Definite aesthetic changes. I do wonder about the second implant appliance newbie was referring to which he said may gain test subjects true ccw rotation, I wouldn’t mind his skepticism towards every single appliance and treatment on here as long as he can shed some light on that haha.

I think you mean to say 5mm, not 5cm, right?

If that is correct then yes that is what I meant, and it could be even less, because judging from the samples I have seen none come out with a significantly wider face. You would have to pay attention and look for it to notice the change in the zygomatic arches.

This is because MSE and every rapid expansion device installed in the palate does expansion in a vertically diminishing fashion.  Think of it as two parallel line being pushed apart only from the bottom. They will move outward more from the bottom than the top and start tipping out. The top will still move out but not at the same rate as the bottom. No where near it seems.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 03/06/2019 2:50 am
Sugr2
New Member

Hi all, just chiming in because got quite a few mentions. Thanks Abdulrahman for the nice words. Always happy to contribute, just don't have the time to constantly login and read the forums. Just @ me a few times and I will get here...

Ucla has some valid points and probably has good intentions of trying to protect members of the public. Especially in forums information can become Chinese whispers and before you know it people are doing things which are simply - dangerous. 

I personally have not used MSE but I have some experience with other MARPE appliances. I think like a lot of these things the concepts are similar but where they differ is in treatment case selection and philosophical debates on mechanisms of growth etc  which ultimately may have very little clinical value, other then biological explanations etc. The main thing is you get a result leading to better health outcomes. 

Treatments of these nature done for aesthetic results will often result in disappointment. 

I will be undertaking the mini residency in MSE with Dr Moon so am excited about what he has to say about the ideal cases and what pros and cons are on its use. 

 

On the topic of measurements not translating into other structures is a well understood phenomenon. It is even seen in something as simple as an expander. You expand 10mm (measuring the screw space) and it fits perfect in every way. But you measure intraoral landmarks and you may see something like 7mm gain in width. . Why? 

Abdulrahman explanation is correct and to add to its it's all about 3d remodelling. The bones and the sutures do not work on a linear relationship. Also alveolar bone remodels a lot faster than basal bone. Notably above the maxilla is the base of the skull with what nature deems to be some pretty important structures and communications for blood and nerves. These structures will remodel like every living bone structure but it is not going to be very quick at all. Then there is also the difference in variation due to density. Say cortical plates versus more cancellous honey comb structures. 

That if also why when I look at cases in children with severe craniofacial dysmorphosis, I recognise the immediate changes in arch width etc with orthopaedic treatments but many years later you see unlocking if the temporal bones ans you get shifts where 'dumbo ears' become less severe. But this may be 5+ yrs later. This also complicates treatmenr comparisons. Most studies will compare surgical vs orthopaedic and say one is better but it doesn't highlight the future changes and benefits and relapses in both treatments. 

Back to the 3d model again, when force is applied it does not just push or  change in that direction, you also get peripheral adaptation. There are general rules by nature /physiology on trajectories of growth and a battle between new bone laying down and bone being eaten away. 

Eg, as per Enlows undisputed works, the maxilla naturally grows down and forward, and in doing so the front part of the maxilla, beneath the nose is a zone of resorption. The posterior pterygoid plate regions are zones of new growth. When you expand the maxilla, you probably more than likely up regulate the physiological metabolisms of these processes which we do not truly understand. Also very hard to study... 

These are visible in implant dentistry. You replace an upper central incisor in a 21yr old and at 30 the bone has grown down and forward but left the implant in its original place in space and now the perfectly positioned tooth at 21 is suddenly 5mm too high... But again most interesting here is not all patients exhibit the same changes in dimension and Some will have almost negligible change. Why? They are all remodelling, but it is probably a genetic vs environmental phenomenon of what trajectories of growth they are experiencing. Anecdotally the vertical growers will have more implant displacement in my practice..  

Just some thoughts for now. 

Keep up the discussion! 

 

 

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Posted : 03/06/2019 10:11 am
Apollo liked
UCLAnewbie
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

If that is correct then yes that is what I meant, and it could be even less, because judging from the samples I have seen none come out with a significantly wider face. 

This is because MSE and every rapid expansion device installed in the palate does expansion in a vertically diminishing fashion.  Think of it as two parallel line being pushed apart only from the bottom. They will move outward more from the bottom than the top and start tipping out. The top will still move out but not at the same rate as the bottom. No where near it seems.

This is a good analogy.

Posted by: GoTTi

So if you expand a cm, that would induce about 5cm of zygo expansion. That’s a lot actually. Definite aesthetic changes. I do wonder about the second implant appliance newbie was referring to which he said may gain test subjects true ccw rotation, I wouldn’t mind his skepticism towards every single appliance and treatment on here as long as he can shed some light on that haha.

This is not a lot. It will not be enough to see any noticeable changes in real life. Trust me, I have seen many cases. Again, the MSE will not produce drastic aesthetic outcomes. It is primarily for the airway and to treat the bite. The N2 mini-implant is an implant that anchored directly to the maxilla. It is described thoroughly in the research article. Under simulation models (which by the way can take up to years and years and 24/7 protraction), we can possibly displace CCW but we do not know that yet. Again, it is a simulation (test model) and NOBODY has even tried to put up a trial yet. Even the creator himself has not done a trial yet. This is also extremely painful. You will most likely need to go through general anesthesia under a surgeon to even install the mini-implants anchored directly to your maxilla. 

Even with all of this, we are not even sure if true displacement of CCW rotation can occur after all this. This is why I'm skeptical to say a face-mask can do this. Most likely, and most definitely, it will not.

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Posted : 03/06/2019 10:51 am
Apollo liked
UCLAnewbie
Active Member
Posted by: Sugr2.

Ucla has some valid points and probably has good intentions of trying to protect members of the public. Especially in forums information can become Chinese whispers and before you know it people are doing things which are simply - dangerous. 

I personally have not used MSE but I have some experience with other MARPE appliances. I think like a lot of these things the concepts are similar but where they differ is in treatment case selection and philosophical debates on mechanisms of growth etc  which ultimately may have very little clinical value, other then biological explanations etc. The main thing is you get a result leading to better health outcomes. 

Treatments of these nature done for aesthetic results will often result in disappointment. 

I cannot emphasize this enough. Thank you.  

It is great to meet another practitioner. Especially someone who has done MARPE and has experiences with it. The MARPE has been known to be effective but it is known to cause more of a V-shaped expansion compared to the MSE because of the position of the TADS, usually placed more anterior. Case by case. However, this does have higher success rates because the bone is thicker in this region. MSE has been a good modification but there are still issues with this appliance. Specifically the type 2. There have been many orthodontists not getting a diastema (indicating suture spit) because the screws have been bending, the torque is much more.

Recently, we incorporated a method that makes several perforations called corticopuncture for the MSE that allows the suture to split more easily despite being placed posteriorly, but as far as I know, few orthos are experienced in this procedure. 

Many orthodontists will try to “forcibly” split the suture such as the guy named “MSE merchant” had done. This is how I know his orthodontist is not experienced with the MSE. The highest failure rates that we see for MSE involve when it is turned to fast and this results in the expander being deformed. The expansion protocol is outdated. However, it may still work, as it has worked for him.

Due to the complexity of sutures in adults, most often as you initiate expansion, you will have areas where bone is jammed against bone. What works is using bone physiology by not crushing the blood supply, allowing osteoclastic activity to take away the bony interferences first, then, once the sutural structure allows for a more normal separation of the bones at the suture, you can slightly accelerate the expansion rate.

You are, in some areas along the suture in adults, jamming bone into bone when you start the expansion. If you don’t crush the local blood supply, you get osteoclastic activity within the first couple of hours. This clears away the bony interferences physiologically and within 2 days those the two sides of the maxilla/ palatine bone complex have moved laterally to a position that bone used to be in the way of. If you add too much pressure, you kill those interfering bone cells through ischemia, don’t get the osteoclastic activity you want, and it takes around 7 days to clear away the dead and dying bones cells through inflammatory cell infiltration. That being said, the MSE is still a trial in works. Every year, we get better at developing new protocols.

But two final matters to clear things up for the young kids/adolescents/and even adults trying to fix their craniofacial discrepancies:

1.) You will not achieve the type of protraction with a facemask stated by many users on this forum

2.) The MSE will not cause any "major" changes in the face. You will not look that noticeably different after the expansion. Like I said and have been repeatedly saying, if you have issues with airway, or a crossbite/class 3, it will be suitable. But again there are other complications with this case-by-case with each patient (e.g. torus palatinus), that make the appliance hard to place and failure much more likely. That is why I said this is a case-by-case basis. It is not some sort of "holy grail" touted by this forum. Life isn't that easy to be able to fix a lifetime worth's of discrepancies by just a one month expansion protocol. 

Again, I am not bashing on anyone who is trying to "look" better. Understandable. However, the ways listed here are not accurate and WILL NOT work. The only way any of these solutions have been significantly documented on real people or to be proven to be true is in surgery. That is it.

Thank you all for your time.

P.S: "MSE Merchant" or Varbrah has personally reached out to me and has confirmed that what I said is true.  You can all PM him if you want about this. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 11:50 am
megamandude
Trusted Member

If he reached out to you, why can’t he post on this thread?

Also in the bimax thread he says he’s a class 1 in one of his posts. Just ctrl f the thread for class 1...

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Posted : 03/06/2019 12:50 pm
James
Eminent Member

It seems that some of the difficulty in this thread is quantifying aesthetic changes. I have been thinking about this a lot going through FAGGA and seeing how X amount of change translates into noticeable aesthetic changes. My conclusion is that changes look a lot more subtle than the numerical amount of mm would suggest. Just to give a ballpark, it seems like landmarks in the mouth need to change by around 5mm+ to be noticeable in the soft tissue of the face.

Here is a proposed method of describing facial changes:

  1. Can't notice IRL or in photos
  2. Can notice, if you know what you are looking for (via you obsessively looking in a mirror, or comparison photos from the same angle)
  3. Other people don't consciously notice, but new people who meet you might think you are better-looking than they would have otherwise.
  4. People who already know you can notice a subtle difference when prompted
  5. People who already know you can notice a subtle difference when not prompted
  6. Looking like a better version of yourself
  7. Looking like a completely different and better person
  8. Achieving your genetic potential

Most people doing Mewing alone have outcomes at level 1, a few at level 2, and a few claim even higher levels of results, but this is not well documented. People treated with dental appliances with <5mm changes seem to have outcomes typically from levels 1-3. People treated with dental appliances that make changes >5mm can have results anywhere from 2-6 on my scale, depending on how well the treatment went. I have seen cases of adults achieving level 7 results (looking like a different person), but it is very rare. And level 8 is impossible in adults with the tools we have.

Does this sound plausible?

So when @varbrah says that he has achieved positive aesthetic results, and @UCLANewbie says that MSE is ineffective for aesthetics, they could both be telling the truth, they are just using different criteria for aesthetic satisfaction. The key is for people to know what kind of aesthetic results are achievable with the appliance they choose, and moderate their expectations.

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Posted : 03/06/2019 12:58 pm
Anomaly and Apollo liked
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: megamandude

If he reached out to you, why can’t he post on this thread?

Also in the bimax thread he says he’s a class 1 in one of his posts. Just ctrl f the thread for class 1...

My bite was technically class 1, but the transverse dimensions of my maxillary arch were deficient and both jaws are retruded. Rather than developing a crossbite, as some people do, my mandibular molars tipped lingually and the maxillary molars tipped outward to meet them.

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Posted : 03/06/2019 1:07 pm
varbrah
Estimable Member
Posted by: James

It seems that some of the difficulty in this thread is quantifying aesthetic changes. I have been thinking about this a lot going through FAGGA and seeing how X amount of change translates into noticeable aesthetic changes. My conclusion is that changes look a lot more subtle than the numerical amount of mm would suggest. Just to give a ballpark, it seems like landmarks in the mouth need to change by around 5mm+ to be noticeable in the soft tissue of the face.

Here is a proposed method of describing facial changes:

  1. Can't notice IRL or in photos
  2. Can notice, if you know what you are looking for (via you obsessively looking in a mirror, or comparison photos from the same angle)
  3. Other people don't consciously notice, but new people who meet you might think you are better-looking than they would have otherwise.
  4. People who already know you can notice a subtle difference when prompted
  5. People who already know you can notice a subtle difference when not prompted
  6. Looking like a better version of yourself
  7. Looking like a completely different and better person
  8. Achieving your genetic potential

Most people doing Mewing alone have outcomes at level 1, a few at level 2, and a few claim even higher levels of results, but this is not well documented. People treated with dental appliances with <5mm changes seem to have outcomes typically from levels 1-3. People treated with dental appliances that make changes >5mm can have results anywhere from 2-6 on my scale, depending on how well the treatment went. I have seen cases of adults achieving level 7 results (looking like a different person), but it is very rare. And level 8 is impossible in adults with the tools we have.

Does this sound plausible?

So when @varbrah says that he has achieved positive aesthetic results, and @UCLANewbie says that MSE is ineffective for aesthetics, they could both be telling the truth, they are just using different criteria for aesthetic satisfaction. The key is for people to know what kind of aesthetic results are achievable with the appliance they choose, and moderate their expectations.

The people in the case study photos look essentially the same even, but I can still point out some subtle changes in the mid-face that are positive. FutureModel for the most part hyped the delusion that you could realistically turn yourself into a model from MSE+FM and could reasonably achieve 18mm of protraction.

In my case, my transverse deficiency and retrusion were severe. After MSE + FM, I still look like myself, but overall better. I myself can especially point out the specific incremental bony changes that have occurred (improved cheekbone width/projection, better under-eye support leading to less bags, etc), but to the average person, it may seem like I’ve simply lost weight or gotten a better night’s sleep. Subtle changes in soft tissue including cheek slimming still occurring as I aggressively pursue myofunctional therapy now that I can maintain proper posture 24/7.

Maybe I am an atypical case, but I have generally gotten between a 5-6 on the scale. I ran into a friend I hadn’t seen in a few months, and first thing she asked was if I had lost weight since my cheeks/jawline looked “slimmer and more defined.” Likewise, had a family gathering and had a relative pull me aside and ask if I got fillers, since *pointing to cheek area* didn’t look as flat. 

I think any positive aesthetic results you may or may not get will be most apparent in areas where you were previously subnormal/deficient.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 1:34 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: MSE Merchant
Posted by: James

It seems that some of the difficulty in this thread is quantifying aesthetic changes. I have been thinking about this a lot going through FAGGA and seeing how X amount of change translates into noticeable aesthetic changes. My conclusion is that changes look a lot more subtle than the numerical amount of mm would suggest. Just to give a ballpark, it seems like landmarks in the mouth need to change by around 5mm+ to be noticeable in the soft tissue of the face.

Here is a proposed method of describing facial changes:

  1. Can't notice IRL or in photos
  2. Can notice, if you know what you are looking for (via you obsessively looking in a mirror, or comparison photos from the same angle)
  3. Other people don't consciously notice, but new people who meet you might think you are better-looking than they would have otherwise.
  4. People who already know you can notice a subtle difference when prompted
  5. People who already know you can notice a subtle difference when not prompted
  6. Looking like a better version of yourself
  7. Looking like a completely different and better person
  8. Achieving your genetic potential

Most people doing Mewing alone have outcomes at level 1, a few at level 2, and a few claim even higher levels of results, but this is not well documented. People treated with dental appliances with <5mm changes seem to have outcomes typically from levels 1-3. People treated with dental appliances that make changes >5mm can have results anywhere from 2-6 on my scale, depending on how well the treatment went. I have seen cases of adults achieving level 7 results (looking like a different person), but it is very rare. And level 8 is impossible in adults with the tools we have.

Does this sound plausible?

So when @varbrah says that he has achieved positive aesthetic results, and @UCLANewbie says that MSE is ineffective for aesthetics, they could both be telling the truth, they are just using different criteria for aesthetic satisfaction. The key is for people to know what kind of aesthetic results are achievable with the appliance they choose, and moderate their expectations.

The people in the case study photos look essentially the same even, but I can still point out some subtle changes in the mid-face that are positive. FutureModel for the most part hyped the delusion that you could realistically turn yourself into a model from MSE+FM and could reasonably achieve 18mm of protraction.

In my case, my transverse deficiency and retrusion were severe. After MSE + FM, I still look like myself, but overall better. I myself can especially point out the specific incremental bony changes that have occurred (improved cheekbone width/projection, better under-eye support leading to less bags, etc), but to the average person, it may seem like I’ve simply lost weight or gotten a better night’s sleep. Subtle changes in soft tissue including cheek slimming still occurring as I aggressively pursue myofunctional therapy now that I can maintain proper posture 24/7.

Maybe I am an atypical case, but I have generally gotten between a 5-6 on the scale. I ran into a friend I hadn’t seen in a few months, and first thing she asked was if I had lost weight since my cheeks/jawline looked “slimmer and more defined.” Likewise, had a family gathering and had a relative pull me aside and ask if I got fillers, since *pointing to cheek area* didn’t look as flat. 

I think any positive aesthetic results you may or may not get will be most apparent in areas where you were previously subnormal/deficient.

That’s all that people are trying to tell this dude lol.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 1:53 pm
varbrah
Estimable Member

By the way guys, hear UCLAnewbie out.

He’s approaching this from a good place, and in a cautionary manner, and is moreso concerned about all of the other ridiculous DIY stuff people are trialling on here, such as FM protraction using regular tooth-borne expanders, thumb-pulling, and all that which is bleeding into some of his frustration ITT. Likewise, he is bringing an academic perspective to the table and attempting to set straight a number of things that are conjecture or theory and our misconceptions. 

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Posted : 03/06/2019 2:00 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: MSE Merchant

By the way guys, hear UCLAnewbie out.

He’s approaching this from a good place, and in a cautionary manner, and is moreso concerned about all of the other ridiculous DIY stuff people are trialling on here, such as FM protraction using regular tooth-borne expanders, thumb-pulling, and all that which is bleeding into some of his frustration ITT. Likewise, he is bringing an academic perspective to the table and attempting to set straight a number of things that are conjecture or theory and our misconceptions. 

I’m already a pretty good looking dude, so I’ve literally never cared about this. Of course who doesn’t want to make facial improvements...? i sure would love to. The only issue I have is very little “chiseled” features. My cheekbones are pretty flat, but my face somehow still looks good and is symmetrical. If I wanted to, I can just get fillers for the rest of my life and maintain a “chiseled” and good looking face.  I can afford it. I can chew gum and increase my masetter muscle sizes, get a small chin implant, and live off of fillers for my cheek bones. That’s what anybody can and should do if they want the whole “model look” and you’ll be okay. But those things, of course, will not contribute to the health changes an MSE can provide for you, which is what I’m looking forward to. It’s amazing that ones sleep apnea could just disappear on such a way. Also, you can see facial changes, as described by you, Varbrah, when you don’t have such a pessinistic view of everything. If you’re exaggerating and comparing these reusits to Lefort results (which are trash, but there is irrefutable change) then of course you’re going to think that nothing has changed.

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Posted : 03/06/2019 2:15 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

The argument about UCLAnewbie's credentials ends here.  Nothing is being added to the discussion from this back-and-forth, and nothing that has been claimed in this thread is controversial anyways. You can easily find Dr. Moon's cases on his own website, is it is very obvious that the massive expansion in the palate does not translate into proportionally massive differences in face/zygomatic width.

I want to assure everyone that any sort of "holy grail" treatment for adults (Orthotropics/myofunctional therapy is proven effective in children) would gain massive traction very quickly as doctors shared their results. If Dr. Moon was turning people into models, he would advertise it and become a billionaire for his treatment method. The first person/group to crack this puzzle will spread the evidence far and wide. 

Most importantly:

People in the thread have been getting away with insults. That ends after this post. 

DO NOT INSULT ANY OTHER USER

I've edited posts to clear that out of the discussion, because it's not helping anyone. 

 

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Posted : 03/06/2019 3:24 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: James

It seems that some of the difficulty in this thread is quantifying aesthetic changes. I have been thinking about this a lot going through FAGGA and seeing how X amount of change translates into noticeable aesthetic changes. My conclusion is that changes look a lot more subtle than the numerical amount of mm would suggest. Just to give a ballpark, it seems like landmarks in the mouth need to change by around 5mm+ to be noticeable in the soft tissue of the face.

Here is a proposed method of describing facial changes:

  1. Can't notice IRL or in photos
  2. Can notice, if you know what you are looking for (via you obsessively looking in a mirror, or comparison photos from the same angle)
  3. Other people don't consciously notice, but new people who meet you might think you are better-looking than they would have otherwise.
  4. People who already know you can notice a subtle difference when prompted
  5. People who already know you can notice a subtle difference when not prompted
  6. Looking like a better version of yourself
  7. Looking like a completely different and better person
  8. Achieving your genetic potential

Most people doing Mewing alone have outcomes at level 1, a few at level 2, and a few claim even higher levels of results, but this is not well documented. People treated with dental appliances with <5mm changes seem to have outcomes typically from levels 1-3. People treated with dental appliances that make changes >5mm can have results anywhere from 2-6 on my scale, depending on how well the treatment went. I have seen cases of adults achieving level 7 results (looking like a different person), but it is very rare. And level 8 is impossible in adults with the tools we have.

Does this sound plausible?

So when @varbrah says that he has achieved positive aesthetic results, and @UCLANewbie says that MSE is ineffective for aesthetics, they could both be telling the truth, they are just using different criteria for aesthetic satisfaction. The key is for people to know what kind of aesthetic results are achievable with the appliance they choose, and moderate their expectations.

Well said

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Posted : 03/06/2019 6:31 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: UCLAnewbie
Posted by: Anomaly
Posted by: MSE Merchant

By the way guys, hear UCLAnewbie out.

He’s approaching this from a good place, and in a cautionary manner, and is moreso concerned about all of the other ridiculous DIY stuff people are trialling on here, such as FM protraction using regular tooth-borne expanders, thumb-pulling, and all that which is bleeding into some of his frustration ITT. Likewise, he is bringing an academic perspective to the table and attempting to set straight a number of things that are conjecture or theory and our misconceptions. 

I’m already a pretty good looking dude, so I’ve literally never cared about this. Of course who doesn’t want to make facial improvements...? i sure would love to. The only issue I have is very little “chiseled” features. My cheekbones are pretty flat, but my face somehow still looks good and is symmetrical. If I wanted to, I can just get fillers for the rest of my life and maintain a “chiseled” and good looking face.  I can afford it. I can chew gum and increase my masetter muscle sizes, get a small chin implant, and live off of fillers for my cheek bones. That’s what anybody can and should do if they want the whole “model look” and you’ll be okay. But those things, of course, will not contribute to the health changes an MSE can provide for you, which is what I’m looking forward to. It’s amazing that ones sleep apnea could just disappear on such a way. Also, you can see facial changes, as described by you, Varbrah, when you don’t have such a pessinistic view of everything. If you’re exaggerating and comparing these reusits to Lefort results (which are trash, but there is irrefutable change) then of course you’re going to think that nothing has changed.

Sleep apnea just doesn't disappear from the "MSE." That's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard in my life. Have you done research on this at all? And for one, it only helps airway if your case is related to transverse or AP discrepancy. Varbrah has TD, and despite having a "class 1", his bite was majorly a cross-bite disguised as a class 1 because the way his molars were tipped. It was not truly a class 1. Like I said, most class 1 patients do not have transverse discrepancy. It will not fix your sleep if your issue is related to an ENT case such as a severely DS or collapsed nasal valve. MSE can neither address either of these things. Consult a professional.

 

I’ve gotten my sleep apnea cured by a chiro. I can care less about MSE in that respect honestly.  No, I have not researched this much at all. I’ve just read what people have posted on here from time to time. I have a career, I am not a student like you are. However, I will say this. You have successfully convinced myself to not even attempt to go through with this therapy because it seems like it fixes nothing lol. Not even for class 3. Just all theoretical stuff that will end up exactly where everything else ends up. Nowhere. So good job for knowing so much about something that will pretty much do nothing for most people. You’re a hero lol

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Posted : 03/06/2019 6:41 pm
voltaire liked
Anomaly
Active Member

No need to moderate my last post. I will no longer be coming back to this forum. This newbie STUDENT came on here to do what all orthos, who don’t think outside of the box, do all of the time. This forum was a safe haven  for people like I who wanted to go on a quest to find answers and solutions. This srudent follows people on threads just to bash their ideas with insults based on his interpretation of  “facts” BUT facts aren’t ever facts. Facts can be debunked. Don’t believe me? Look at the massive amounts of scientific facts that have been debunked throughout the course of the last 20 years. This guy, I guess, is comfortable with telling people “sorry, there’s nothing you can do. But I understand” for the rest of his life and a person like me won’t have that. I usually get a second opinion, which leads me to things that actually work, after I get done talking to an ortho that sounds a bit like this student. There is always a way to solve something, But it’s cool because we are all entitled to having opinion and I will never force that type of thinking on somebody else. My complaint is that it starts getting annoying when he goes around, as a student and not even an ortho (lol) giving his “professional” advice when I’ve talked to orthos (not students) who tend to agree with certain stuff that he’s against. A bit off topic, but l people like this are the reason why cancer (curable) is still considered “incurable” and chemotherapy (2% effective) remains the gold standard for cancer treatment. People like him will literally look somebody in the eye that got rid of their tumors with something completely natural and say that they experienced a misdiagnosis, which will lead to continued stagnation. These types of people are not contributing to anything meaningful in this world. 

 

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Posted : 03/06/2019 6:56 pm
voltaire liked
paradise
Eminent Member
 

I’ve gotten my sleep apnea cured by a chiro. I can care less about MSE in that respect honestly.  No, I have not researched this much at all. I’ve just read what people have posted on here from time to time. I have a career, I am not a student like you are. However, I will say this. You have successfully convinced myself to not even attempt to go through with this therapy because it seems like it fixes nothing lol. Not even for class 3. Just all theoretical stuff that will end up exactly where everything else ends up. Nowhere. So good job for knowing so much about something that will pretty much do nothing for most people. You’re a hero lol

@anomaly, How did your chiro cure your sleep apnea? I am currently undergoing FAGGA to help it.

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Posted : 03/06/2019 7:05 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

@anomaly You can just keep posting while consciously choosing to ignore and/or not respond to any user that is getting on your nerves. In fact, that's our general recommendation to all users. Don't like a user? Ignore them. If they harass you, we'll ban them.  Otherwise, just drop the discussion as soon as you don't think it's serving any purpose for you. There's dozens of other users online at any time to engage in fruitful discussion with. This forum is still for out-of-the-box thinking, but if you want to be such a thinker then you're going to have to get used to ignoring nay-sayers

@uclanewbie Don't be condescending to any users. A good percentage of the userbase is highly knowledgeable, and are attempting to break paradigms and dogma of dentistry and the health sciences. A med student regurgitating the textbook like gospel isn't what anyone here is looking for. You're not even the most qualified person in this thread, let alone the forum.  Many of the things that you are trying to open debate about (sutures closing, maxilla movement) are all long-standing topics that you're reigniting in random threads. The oldest rule of forums: Lurk moar

 

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Posted : 03/06/2019 9:01 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: paradise
 

I’ve gotten my sleep apnea cured by a chiro. I can care less about MSE in that respect honestly.  No, I have not researched this much at all. I’ve just read what people have posted on here from time to time. I have a career, I am not a student like you are. However, I will say this. You have successfully convinced myself to not even attempt to go through with this therapy because it seems like it fixes nothing lol. Not even for class 3. Just all theoretical stuff that will end up exactly where everything else ends up. Nowhere. So good job for knowing so much about something that will pretty much do nothing for most people. You’re a hero lol

@anomaly, How did your chiro cure your sleep apnea? I am currently undergoing FAGGA to help it.

Read my post, bro

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Posted : 04/06/2019 1:46 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

I completely agree to UCLANewbie that doing DIY facial procedures like facemasks is not smart.

 

Even with medical professionals a lot of this is risky, but doing it at home makes no sense to me.

 

We should really examine our irrational optimism and pay attention when someone is posting counter-arguments. First thing I want to know about a new procedure / idea I'm considering is all the reasons why IT COULD FAIL. Then address each of the issues to see if they are legit criticisms. 

This is risky and life changing so maximum caution is warranted. I was almost ready to go with MSE+FM method, but now am much more cautious after UCLANewbie laid out points while it is not "miracle" procedure like many of us here hoped it to be (including me).

I always welcome people telling me WHY I am wrong. That is the only way you can learn.

 

I think these heated debates are VERY GOOD, since that is the only way to find TRUTH. Circle jerk where everyone just agrees with each other is hivemind thinking not real progress.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 04/06/2019 4:07 pm
bigolhead liked
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

I completely agree to UCLANewbie that doing DIY facial procedures like facemasks is not smart.

 

Even with medical professionals a lot of this is risky, but doing it at home makes no sense to me.

 

We should really examine our irrational optimism and pay attention when someone is posting counter-arguments. First thing I want to know about a new procedure / idea I'm considering is all the reasons why IT COULD FAIL. Then address each of the issues to see if they are legit criticisms. 

This is risky and life changing so maximum caution is warranted. I was almost ready to go with MSE+FM method, but now am much more cautious after UCLANewbie laid out points while it is not "miracle" procedure like many of us here hoped it to be (including me).

I always welcome people telling me WHY I am wrong. That is the only way you can learn.

 

I think these heated debates are VERY GOOD, since that is the only way to find TRUTH. Circle jerk where everyone just agrees with each other is hivemind thinking not real progress.

I get that you like the conservative approach (we should all definitely be more conservative than not) but like TGW said, many orthos are attempting to make paradigm shifts and have done so already.  I’m pretty sure that, if these people who made breakthroughs essentially focused a lot on the textbook rules, they wouldn’t have made these recent breakthroughs. I actually guarantee it.

 

UCLA goes by the text book way too much IMO,  which obviously suits people like yourself and several others on this thread and in this group. However, people like Mike Mew are starting to move away from it from what I have gathered & understand. As a result? Many changes that were thought to be “impossible” are now becoming possible, some of them being FREE of charge (mewing) which can evidently put a dent in corporate pockets. 

 

EDIT: I am not trying to offend anyone. I’m just stating my opinion and perspective on tha matter 

 

PS: also, you sometimes have to watch out for the side you choose. On the non conservative side, you have answers or at least pieces to the puzzle that are currently being put together. On the conservative side however, you will find nothing much but LeFort recommendations and other very conservative approaches that do more harm than good and cost way too much for what? More medical bills for the rest of your life?  

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Posted : 04/06/2019 4:20 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Moving away from books is GOOD, don't get me wrong. I think that challenging new and old ideas is important, so heated debates are excellent and in them truth can be wrong.

I love to observe how side A finds arguments and counter-points, then site B refutes them, then side A refutes those, then side B ...and so on...eventually one side will give up or lose arguments (all of them be rebutted). Then I can consider that side to be lost and listen to the winning side.

For consumers this is win-win in my opinion and these people should not be banned, but should be encouraged to discuss even more, even if it gets heated!

One thing I hate about forums like reddit is you get banned or downvoted aas soon asa you post something going against the narrative, even if it is delusional.

I really, really WANT MSE+FM to be holy grail and to work, but if someone can point out solid reasons why it is not, I will listen to them. I know I can be a biased human being, so I will always listen to rationality and objective truth not hopes.

 

Not saying these new methods cannot be proven to work. It will probably take time to build up a good base of studies and proof they are effective. I just hope it takes 5 years, not 50 haha

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 04/06/2019 4:34 pm
GoTTi liked
UCLAnewbie
Active Member

Regardless, thank you all for your time.

It looks like I can't post anything further without getting my posts deleted by @TGW.

I will be taking my leave now, good luck to everyone. I wish you the best

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Posted : 04/06/2019 5:04 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

The guy suggested a genioplasty and extractions to an 18 years old kid on some other topic. Lol. I mean.. It's a suggestion and it's valid but he's 18. 

I mean cmon. I'm not an expert, most surely he also isn't. 

I'm all up for discussion but cmon.. Lol

If won moon had his point of view, if people he so says have ptsd and body dismorphia didn't educate themselves and go for less invasive ways of treating the cause instead of doing a surgery to fix a symptom I guarantee you we wouldn't be making these innovative progresses in dentistry. 

 

 

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Posted : 04/06/2019 5:14 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

And the 'academic' point of view is worthless tbh.

I'm currently talking to an orthodontist planning for bioblock that understand what I understand and has given me real unbiased expectations. We found a common ground. I visited 9 others. 

All of the others pretty much looked at me like I was a [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] after I presented them with what I wanted. Giving me the académical stale point of view that I'm doomed with a crossbite pseudo underbite unless I pay a fortune to get my face full of titanium plates and address pretty much none of the root issues.

Again I'm all up for discussion but I like people willing to find common ground. That's the most important thing. 

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Posted : 04/06/2019 5:34 pm
Anomaly
Active Member

deleted.

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Posted : 04/06/2019 6:00 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: Roflcopters

And the 'academic' point of view is worthless tbh.

I'm currently talking to an orthodontist planning for bioblock that understand what I understand and has given me real unbiased expectations. We found a common ground. I visited 9 others. 

All of the others pretty much looked at me like I was a [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] after I presented them with what I wanted. Giving me the académical stale point of view that I'm doomed with a crossbite pseudo underbite unless I pay a fortune to get my face full of titanium plates and address pretty much none of the root issues.

Again I'm all up for discussion but I like people willing to find common ground. That's the most important thing. 

Wow, you understand. Thank goodness you and a few others do. Also, wow again for that recommendation he have for an 18 yo. I’ll bite my tongue since TGW has asked for peace. But.... wow....

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Posted : 04/06/2019 6:01 pm
Anomaly
Active Member
Posted by: paradise
 

I’ve gotten my sleep apnea cured by a chiro. I can care less about MSE in that respect honestly.  No, I have not researched this much at all. I’ve just read what people have posted on here from time to time. I have a career, I am not a student like you are. However, I will say this. You have successfully convinced myself to not even attempt to go through with this therapy because it seems like it fixes nothing lol. Not even for class 3. Just all theoretical stuff that will end up exactly where everything else ends up. Nowhere. So good job for knowing so much about something that will pretty much do nothing for most people. You’re a hero lol

@anomaly, How did your chiro cure your sleep apnea? I am currently undergoing FAGGA to help it.

I will try to PM you to not clutter this thread. I would say that you are on the right track though 

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Posted : 04/06/2019 6:08 pm
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