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Possibly new "holy grail" for moving the maxilla up and forwards? [MSE + Facemask Therapy]

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FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

I came across a comment by the user "varbrah" on this forum and he talks about the Maxillary Skeletal Expander (MSE) and how this combined with face pulling might just in fact be able to move your maxilla up and forwards. I'm not talking growth here like the fagga, I'm talking about literally moving the maxilla up and forwards,

A quote from varbrah

"the expansion process/skeletal growth of the maxilla with MSE will disarticulate all contiguous sutures, so if you throw protraction into your routine, you’ll literally be able to achieve distraction osteogenesis-like improvements of the entire midface, zygos and everything."

check this link out  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1073874618300094

This link here goes into much much more detail and shows x-rays. https://www.semortho.com/article/S1073-8746(18)30009-4/pdf

 

What does everyone think? This device seems like a little miracle

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Topic starter Posted : 25/09/2018 2:52 am
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

Here's the actual website of the device https://www.moonmse.com/information

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Topic starter Posted : 25/09/2018 2:53 am
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
500+ Forum Posts

Thanks for sharing this.

No, it's not a miracle, but certainly is an improvement over the previous method of rapid skeletal expansion. Now I plan to go through all the links in detail over the next few days, but in the mean time I wonder how is the mandible going to be expanded to match the maxilla? And assuming both are expanded what is going to keep it from relapsing after treatment?

You know if you use this kind of method to gain a wider face and more prominent zygomatic arches you will be expanding the inside of the jaws beyond their natural limit. People with model faces have a normal range interior width but their bones are thick and big on the outside where its all cosmetic.

Trying to expand the interior to achieve the same look just won't work.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/09/2018 10:22 am
dapi and EddieMoney liked
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

@Abdulrahman

MSE + FM is ideal for those with a some combination of a narrow maxilla and maxillary retrusion, including your typical class 3's. My lower jaw is wider than my upper jaw, making the bottom molars tip inwards to meet the teeth in the upper jaw, so widening the mandibular arch won't be a problem in my case -- and the point is that ideal candidates for MSE aren't expanding their maxillas past the natural limit, more like undoing the effects of a lifetime of mouthbreathing and dog [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] orthodontics through growth modification.

You are also underestimating the cosmetic effect just a few millimeters can have in regards to facial aesthetics. No, a reasonable amount of expansion to a normal bite via MSE will not result in an unnatural look at all -- just a few mm increase in bone dimension can make all the difference and will increasingly balance out your soft tissue, making you look more human and less like an inbred potato.

To answer your questions: you will relapse post-MSE, but if done right not by much. Relapse is mitigated by overexpansion of 2-3mm and then by keeping the MSE in post expansion for 3-6 months to stabilize the suture.

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Posted : 25/09/2018 10:48 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

also, get excited @FutureModel.

Got my MSE in today, log coming soon. I'll be doing MSE + FM protraction, and I'll be helping growth/remodeling along by speeding up bone turnover with MK-677 and GH peptides. Results should be sickening. I am not sure if I will post facial pics since I don't want to dox myself, but definitely x-rays at the very least.

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Posted : 25/09/2018 10:59 am
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
500+ Forum Posts

Certainly @varbrah, your case is a legitimate candidate for this treatment and expanding few mm under medical guidance can make a big difference. I do not question that at all, it's just that for any person with a normal width and normal occlusion this procedure will not offer an improvement. The concerns I raised above apply in that case.

This is the impression I get from @futuremodel because he is focused on gaining model like appearance not fixing any specific malocclusion. I wonder what his occlusion is like. 

Regarding your treatment what is your inter molar width and how much does your doctor want to expand your arch? Do you start braces treatment to realign the teeth after the 3-6 month retention phase? How much is this entire treatment costing you? 

You can share pictures by the way using the privet messenger to trusted forum members.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 25/09/2018 11:23 am
megamandude
(@megamandude)
100+ Forum Posts
Posted by: varbrah

also, get excited @FutureModel.

Got my MSE in today, log coming soon. I'll be doing MSE + FM protraction, and I'll be helping growth/remodeling along by speeding up bone turnover with MK-677 and GH peptides. Results should be sickening. I am not sure if I will post facial pics since I don't want to dox myself, but definitely x-rays at the very least.

How did you get a MSE?

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Posted : 25/09/2018 7:34 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts
Posted by: megamandude
Posted by: varbrah

also, get excited @FutureModel.

Got my MSE in today, log coming soon. I'll be doing MSE + FM protraction, and I'll be helping growth/remodeling along by speeding up bone turnover with MK-677 and GH peptides. Results should be sickening. I am not sure if I will post facial pics since I don't want to dox myself, but definitely x-rays at the very least.

How did you get a MSE?

I did that thing where I found a good orthodontist and told him I wanted one

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/09/2018 7:45 pm
You liked
megamandude
(@megamandude)
100+ Forum Posts
Posted by: varbrah
Posted by: megamandude
Posted by: varbrah

also, get excited @FutureModel.

Got my MSE in today, log coming soon. I'll be doing MSE + FM protraction, and I'll be helping growth/remodeling along by speeding up bone turnover with MK-677 and GH peptides. Results should be sickening. I am not sure if I will post facial pics since I don't want to dox myself, but definitely x-rays at the very least.

How did you get a MSE?

I did that thing where I found a good orthodontist and told him I wanted one

How much did it cost?  

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Posted : 25/09/2018 8:42 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

$11k all together including braces to correct diastema amd fix bite, teeth tipping after, and any other corrections.

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Posted : 25/09/2018 9:01 pm
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

@varbrah I'm very interested in this. MSE+FM might just be a miracle based on all of the information lol you're going to make a post about it when you get your hands on it? Perfect, I'm very excited

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Topic starter Posted : 25/09/2018 9:51 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts
Posted by: FutureModel

@varbrah I'm very interested in this. MSE+FM might just be a miracle based on all of the information lol you're going to make a post about it when you get your hands on it? Perfect, I'm very excited

I’ll make an intro post in the cases section when I get home from work today probably. Will provide more documentation as I get it, x-rays and all.

And yes I would say it’s the best treatment currently available for adults — as close to a miracle as is currently possible. Everyone loves to jerk off to the idea of appliances like AGGA which have no literature to back them up, but have completely ignored innovative, but nonetheless well-documented and researched growth modification and correction methods like MSE, variations of which (MARPE) have been in clinical use for decades. I think it comes down to people simply being unwilling to accept a semi-invasive and uncomfortable treatment option (having a hunk of metal drilled into your skull), despite it being exactly what they need in some cases — i am fairly new on here, but I’ve seen numerous instances of adults with horrendous malocclusion and CFD convincing themselves to opt for treatments like ALF and Biobloc, which are great if you are a) a child or young teenager or b) you have the base to work with for marginal improvements over years (no hate, i am planning to get some functional appliances to help further after MSE+FM), but will otherwise be useless.

Day two of the MSE btw, expanding at 0.8mm per day — It will take a few more days for the diastema to form probably, but I am already feeling crazy pressure in my cheekbones and nasal bone, hopefully that is a sign that the MSE is going to have an effect on those areas once the interpalatal suture opens.

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Posted : 25/09/2018 10:30 pm
Mewb and FutureModel liked
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

Awesome, from what I understand, the MSE+FM is basically a non-surgical lefort 3. Would that accurate to say? I'm 100% going to keep an eye out for your post later on lol

Is it possible to get your maxilla in the ideal place (up and forwards) via MSE+FM? I don't completely understand what happens, but basically, you widen your entire maxilla with the MSE, then your sutures are opened up? Does that mean you're going to have less resistance or any in moving your maxilla up and forwards?

So you widen the maxilla, then once it's diconnected you just pull it up and forewards like face pulling?

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Topic starter Posted : 25/09/2018 11:43 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

Yes MSE+FM can translate the entire midface forward, mimicking the clinical effects of a LeFort 3.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘ideal position’ but yeah upward and forward displacement of the maxilla happens with just MSE alone, oddly enough, due to the reciprocal forces of continguous bones pushing the expanded maxilla further out of the skull, basically due to lack of space. Combined with FM, 1g of force per side and a force vector of -30 degrees to the occlusal plane should result in almost pure orthopedic forward movement and slight anterior tipping (ccw rotation) of the maxilla based on FEM models.

Yes, less resistance moving your maxilla because all of the perimaxillary sutures will disarticulate slightly due to the expansion of the whole maxilla due to MSE. When sutures are loosened, protracting the maxilla will be more efficient, and you will have new bone growth at the sutures (mimicking distraction osteogenesis). You are essentially correct that it is just like facepulling, except completely bone-anchored.

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Posted : 25/09/2018 11:55 pm
Mewb liked
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

When I talk about "ideal position" all I mean is basically the picture below. Because, when you grow right, when your maxilla is up and forwards (like it naturally supposed to be), and because it's up and forwards it gives you a sexy face, a maxilla that's up and forwards will show: your model like cheekbones, sexy hunter eyes, it just basically makes you very attractive. When you see attractive people 99% of them have a maxilla that's up and forwards, they all have that same trait.

Basically, beauty=upwards and forwards maxilla

sexy maxilla
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Topic starter Posted : 26/09/2018 2:11 am
Usum liked
megamandude
(@megamandude)
100+ Forum Posts

How long do you think it will take to move your maxilla into an ideal position @varbrah also what is FM?

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Posted : 26/09/2018 2:22 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

Yeah I understand that up/forward maxilla is attractive, but that isn’t limited to just one ideal position, but a spectrum.

@megamandude no idea since there is no such thing as an actual ideal position. Improvements can be made indefinitely. FM is face mask.

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Posted : 26/09/2018 3:19 am
rogerramjet
(@rogerramjet)
50+ Forum Posts

Complete ignorance here; how is this different to palatal expanders that a number of children get with orthodontics?

Or is it the 'faecmask' that makes the difference?

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Posted : 26/09/2018 5:32 am
zosogg
(@zosogg)
50+ Forum Posts

@rogerramjet Miniscrews are applied directly to the hard palate (maxilla), therefore the force are anchored to the bone and not being applied to the teeth which can also cause tipping. It's more invasive than traditional palate expanders. I'm not sure beyond this how it would be different, beyond maybe just being more effective at applying forces directly to the maxilla. Varbrah talks a lot about how it will disarticulate the midline suture, but I feel like this is certainly possible with traditional palatal expanders (ALF, mewing, biobloc, etc.). The big wammy that makes this interesting is that adding a facemask to the protocol allows one to pull on the sutures while theyre "loose" and allows one to effectively pull the face forward. This is not possible with traditional palate expanders and its not bone anchored as well. 

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Posted : 26/09/2018 7:28 am
megamandude
(@megamandude)
100+ Forum Posts

Did your orthodontist set you up with a face mask or did you make your own? 

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Posted : 26/09/2018 7:41 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

@zosogg Rest assured you will not be disarticulting the midline suture with the force of your tongue as an adult. At best you can hope for slow transverse gains by remodeling of existing bone.

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Posted : 26/09/2018 8:00 am
rogerramjet
(@rogerramjet)
50+ Forum Posts

@zosogg thanks for the clarification.

This 'pulling' on the midline suture after it's been pried open sounds painful...

The above links do not picture the facemask, are there any more details about it?

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Posted : 26/09/2018 9:33 am
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

@varbrah when you use the mse and disarticulate all of the sutures, will that allow you to pull the maxilla up as well? To give you the sexy hunter eyes?

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Topic starter Posted : 27/09/2018 6:04 am
Mewb liked
Apollo
(@apollo)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: rogerramjet

This 'pulling' on the midline suture after it's been pried open sounds painful...

Just to clarify, the expander will be separating the midpalatal suture, but this in turn loosens the sutures connecting the maxilla to other facial bones, and the extra oral traction is then intended to create separation along these other sutures in an upward/forward direction. This is the strategy I tried to implement when facepulling using my removable palate expander, but I abandoned the practice because I felt that the force was loaded onto my teeth rather than the bone. Connecting the traction to a bone-anchored expander would probably be more successful.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/09/2018 6:51 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts
Posted by: FutureModel

@varbrah when you use the mse and disarticulate all of the sutures, will that allow you to pull the maxilla up as well? To give you the sexy hunter eyes?

Yes, forward and up displacement kf the maxilla results in counter clockwise rotation of the maxilla and related complexes

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/09/2018 7:43 am
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

Awesome, I'm wondering how all of this will affect someones face, maybe they will end up looking like a different person. I'm very excited and waiting for an ortho in Ontario to do the mse course so I can get treated with it. This little mse+fm could be life changing!

 

I was talking to a guy in BC who works with Mike Mew and he said I need "like 18mm of advancement" of my maxilla, is this achieveable with the mse alone?

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Topic starter Posted : 27/09/2018 7:38 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

18mm with MSE alone? Absolutely not. Probably not even that much with aggressive protraction.

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Posted : 27/09/2018 7:41 pm
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

Why not? Will the sutures tear off? hahaha

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Topic starter Posted : 27/09/2018 7:51 pm
megamandude
(@megamandude)
100+ Forum Posts
Posted by: FutureModel

Awesome, I'm wondering how all of this will affect someones face, maybe they will end up looking like a different person. I'm very excited and waiting for an ortho in Ontario to do the mse course so I can get treated with it. This little mse+fm could be life changing!

 

I was talking to a guy in BC who works with Mike Mew and he said I need "like 18mm of advancement" of my maxilla, is this achieveable with the mse alone?

Let me know if you find an ortho in Ontario who is willing to do MSE man, im from around there as well lol 

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Posted : 27/09/2018 8:28 pm
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

There is a guy in Kanata Ontario who's going to do a course on MSE next friday oct 5., Dr Mark Luden. Here is their website http://www.kanataorthodontics.com/

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Topic starter Posted : 27/09/2018 8:31 pm
gr8w0tm8 liked
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts
Posted by: FutureModel

Why not? Will the sutures tear off? hahaha

No growth at the sutures is easy to stimulate once theyve been loosened. Keep in mind though that you will also have to be remodeling existing bone in the case of an upswing, as your midface will become more compact and you cant exactly just shove it up into your skull. Bone remodeling is pretty slow, which is why I’m using ibutamoren and mod-grf/ipamorelin stack to juice all the GH out of my pituitary. GH increases bone turnover making the remodeling process that much faster. Also keep in mind that if you want to achieve 18mm of forward displacement, you would need to find a way to keep the sutures open indefinitely, as those kind of gains will take a year or more to achieve.

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Posted : 27/09/2018 8:43 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

@FutureModel my diastema opened yesterday morning btw, which means my suture has split. We have been expanding aggressively (6 turns per day, so about 3.5-4mm of total expansion thus far) and I am already noticing subtle increases in width and angularity of my zygos (completely flat before, absolutely no projection and my cheekbones were flush with the soft tissue underneath). For the first time in my life I am seeing a cheek contour from the 3/4th view and a slight shadow underneath the zygomatic arch. Probably not a difference a casual observer would notice but since I’m looking at myself in the mirror every day I can tell the difference.

So juiced for the gains ahead.

EDIT: oh and did I mention my nasal breathing? 4mm of expansion may not seem like much, but put that into pi*r^2 terms and the upper airway gains are exponential. I was able to nose breath before but I always felt a degree of resistance doing so and still snored pretty bad. The past two days I have not felt any resistance when nasal breathing heavily, and was able to work out intensely for the first time in years without having to mouthbreath.

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Posted : 27/09/2018 9:04 pm
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

So it is possible it will just take a long time ok no problem. Yeah bro, that sounds fantastic, do you have cheek hollows?

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Topic starter Posted : 27/09/2018 9:11 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts
Posted by: FutureModel

So it is possible it will just take a long time ok no problem. Yeah bro, that sounds fantastic, do you have cheek hollows?

I’ve never had cheek hollows despite being very low bf (currently sitting at 9%) but like I said I am starting to see a cheek contour for the first time ever, and maybe the beginnings of cheek hollows. We’ll see - i think the biggest determinant will be how successful the protraction is over time since my entire midface is deficient in forward projection.

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Posted : 27/09/2018 9:21 pm
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

Yep no surprise there, when your maxilla is down and back your face will appear to have no bone structure even though everyone does. Everyone usually has good bone structure, it is just that their maxilla/midface is not forward enough to show it. That's great bro, keep updating and let me know how much better it gets

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Topic starter Posted : 27/09/2018 9:32 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts
Posted by: FutureModel

Yep no surprise there, when your maxilla is down and back your face will appear to have no bone structure even though everyone does. Everyone usually has good bone structure, it is just that their maxilla/midface is not forward enough to show it. That's great bro, keep updating and let me know how much better it gets

Yup exactly, the position of the midfacial bones is just inadequate for the surrounding soft tissue to drape over as it was meant to. When I tilt my head up to simulate ccw rotation of the maxilla I’m surprised at how robust my lower third looks when the soft tissue is stretched over it and its not being shoved back into my throat.

And thank you, i’ll keep you posted. Still have to make that thread but I’ve been pretty busy, and want to make it neat and comprehensive, which is difficult when youre posting from a phone lol.

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Posted : 27/09/2018 9:48 pm
DeepSquat
(@deepsquat)
10+ Forum Posts
Posted by: FutureModel

There is a guy in Kanata Ontario who's going to do a course on MSE next friday oct 5., Dr Mark Luden. Here is their website http://www.kanataorthodontics.com/

How did you find this out? I live in the GTA, he is kind of far, but may be worth the drive to have a consultation with him after Oct 5th if he is the first one in Ontario with this knowledge/training..

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Posted : 27/09/2018 9:50 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

There are definitely more orthos who already have experience in using the MSE (it is not a fringe treatment) so just e-mail around, find some, and get as many opinions as possible. Seek out orthos whose specialty is in dentofacial orthopedics specifically. You ideally want someone who already uses it and uses it often, so do not immediately go for someone who is recently certified unless you have no other options.

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Posted : 27/09/2018 9:59 pm
DeepSquat liked
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

I'm having trouble finding an ortho who cares about the entire face rather than getting the "bite right", it seems that orthos only care about straightening the teeth. If you're an adult with straight teeth but want to get your damn maxilla out of your throat they don't care and won't treat you because "Well if your teeth are straight there isn't much I can do for you" and also "these types of appliances are used for kids who are still growing and once you've stopped growing that's it"

 

This is the type of attitude and thinking they all have. Really frustrating tbh, I'ma keep lookin

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Topic starter Posted : 28/09/2018 1:16 am
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

What did you type into the search bar when you were looking? Lol

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Topic starter Posted : 28/09/2018 1:18 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

I’ve spelled out exactly what sort of orthodontic specialist you all should be looking for multiple times ITT and the other thread where you got my quote from and now you want me to craft a google search for you? Don’t be lazy.

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Posted : 28/09/2018 3:27 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
(@le_fort_or_bust)
100+ Forum Posts

What is this FaceMask you speak of?

 

I need to move maxilla forward and expand horizontally. Can this help me? My intermolar width is 37mm. I would like to gain a cm and also increase volume of nasal passage so I can breathe in more. But how does this move maxilla forward and upward?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 28/09/2018 4:08 am
rogerramjet
(@rogerramjet)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

What is this FaceMask you speak of?

yeah, I'm still waiting for this.

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Posted : 28/09/2018 4:25 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

I don’t understand why you guys are incapable of doing your own research let alone actually reading the studies that @FutureModel posted in the OP. How lazy are you? If you don’t know what a facemask is then google it — it is not some esoteric and arcane orthodontic device. 

Again, stop being lazy. I am not here to spoonfeed you. All the literature and use cases for the MSE and/or FM are readily available and I am not going to digest and regurgitate the info for you ad infinitum.

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Posted : 28/09/2018 5:31 am
maubes
(@maubes)
New Member

I really hope technology helps to create new devices and techniques to expand structurally the maxilla and mandible with noticeable aesthetic effects. Next year and 2020s will be great to see advances

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Posted : 28/09/2018 6:00 am
rogerramjet
(@rogerramjet)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: varbrah

I don’t understand why you guys are incapable of doing your own research let alone actually reading the studies that @FutureModel posted in the OP. How lazy are you? If you don’t know what a facemask is then google it — it is not some esoteric and arcane orthodontic device. 

Again, stop being lazy. I am not here to spoonfeed you. All the literature and use cases for the MSE and/or FM are readily available and I am not going to digest and regurgitate the info for you ad infinitum.

Ok, first of all calm down.

Secondly, I read the material in the OP. There was scant discussion about the design of the face mask itself, let alone a picture of it.

It's all well and good to say 'if you don’t know what a facemask is then google it' but if this is a specific and revolutionary treatment protocol, then it is reasonable to assume that the particular face mask used might be different to those that are 'arcane'

Anyway, if the treatment works then that's terrific, but we're here for a discussion so please leave your ego at the door.

Cheers

 

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Posted : 28/09/2018 6:22 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

@rogerramjet I'm perfectly calm buddy.

If you actually did your own research you'd know there is no practical difference between ANY iterations/designs of the FaceMask. It is a device used to exert a force on the maxilla extraorally using elastics, and the forehead and chin as anchors for reciprocal force. Seriously, this treatment (palate expansion + protraction w/ FM) is NOT specific nor revolutionary - it has been in clinical use for DECADES - the MSE is just a recent innovation which makes transverse expansion more effective in adults. Again, you would know this if you actually took the time to read any of the numerous studies available on the topic.

 

Cheers

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Posted : 28/09/2018 7:26 am
TGW
 TGW
(@admin)
Admin

Thread temporarily locked

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EDIT: Thread open again. Users will refrain from any insults or inflammatory posts directed at another user

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Posted : 28/09/2018 7:44 am
JimmyB
(@jimmyb)
10+ Forum Posts

I managed to find a practice in NYC that performs MSE (or so they say). You guys might want to try googling "Maxillofacial Surgeons", you might have better luck. It took a lot of phone calls for me to find someone.

Did anyone else have any luck or find any tricks to sort out doctors/surgeons? Generally I'm pretty good with the google, but I had a good deal of difficulty, if I'm being honest.

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Posted : 29/09/2018 3:22 am
haza679
(@haza679)
New Member

I currently have a removable palate expander (with hooks) and am wondering if it is possible to use it with a facemask to pull the maxilla forward. I have a class III bite and am still in my teens so there may be a good room for improvement. Also what kind of facemask are you using and how much time do you spend pulling forward.

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Posted : 30/09/2018 8:10 pm
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts
Posted by: haza679

I currently have a removable palate expander (with hooks) and am wondering if it is possible to use it with a facemask to pull the maxilla forward. I have a class III bite and am still in my teens so there may be a good room for improvement. Also what kind of facemask are you using and how much time do you spend pulling forward.

How old are you exactly, big difference between late teens and early teens? The hooks are there for elastics so yeah you can use a facemask with them. I am using a Petit Facemask but there’s no difference in which one you use, whichever is more comfortable.

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Posted : 30/09/2018 10:54 pm
marmew92
(@marmew92)
New Member

Who are you seeing? Which angulation protocol did he place you in? Is it left in till specific protraction goals, or just "see how much we can get" till the MSE device comes out?

I have putting my faith in MSE + FM for quite awhile now. MARPE/MSE providers easy to find even locally but knew nothing about the FM combination protocol. I'm in South East Asia and don't want to have to travel all the way to see Won Moon if necessary. 

How much reverse overjet do you have? Any prior retraction ortho?

I'm also monitoring the AGGA/ALF stuff. Can't decide which to do first. My PT and neuro-optometrist wants me in an ALF for a pretty bad left-sidebend cranial strain. I want the physiologic benefits of the ALF stuff but nothing beats the overlay scans showing 2-3mm lateral orbital rim expansion and the sickening FEM lefort 3 simulations in the various MSE papers. I can't get an opinion from both dentist/ortho side because both sides think each other's method is bullshit.

Please update on your progress throughout!

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Posted : 02/10/2018 6:09 am
GoTTi
(@gotti)
100+ Forum Posts

Seriously, man... you’re extremely appreciated for postnng your wisdom and what appears to be years worth of knowledge on this topic, on this forum. Thank you for providing alternate solutions to surgery. Ones that are [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] incredible. 

 

i have a quick question, if you don’t mind. As far as I’ve read, you discuss the maxilla a lot, but rarely touch on the mandible. Now, I know the mandible tends to automatically follow suit and rotate upwards in conjunction with the maxilla with facepulking and other “non invasive methods.

 

Question is pretty self explanatory at this point.

 

How does the mandible react to these impressive maxillary changes? The same way as with face pulling/mewing where it’s balanced out? I ask because I have a pretty/weak recessed lower jaw (as well as upper, of course) from having upper and lower traditional braces from around ages 8-10 all the way to about 15-16 years of age. I sort of remember indulging in RPE as a child, but don’t quote me on this. I’m pretty sure though, simply because my palate was small as [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] as a child vs now where it’s still pretty [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated], but not as [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] as pre pubertal days. I also remember discussing it with my mother and remember the device a bit thinking back.

 

Anyways, thanks again for everything, dude.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 4:44 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

@GoTTi the mandible should autorotate in step with the maxilla for the most part. If the forward component of the displacement of the maxilla was too great during protraction, and the mandible cannot reach it to form a proper bite, then you’d need to either a) retract the maxilla once more, b) get BSSO or c) get distraction osteogenesis.

As far as just expansion with MSE, the mandible should adapt fine as long as you do not expand the maxilla well beyond it. I’m using the MSE now and was able to expand from 41mm to 47mm (last measured a few days ago, probably 48mm now) IMW without disrupting my bite at all, but that’s because my lower jaw was already a bit wider.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 5:08 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

@marmew92

just doing protraction to see how much we can get out of it (without disrupting the bite) before the MSE comes out, no specific goals in mind.

if no orthos near you are familiar with combining protraction and MSE or are unwilling to do it then you can always just purchase a facemask and do it yourself. It’s extremely difficult to [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up since the changes are not happening overnight. In terms of angulation you just want to stay less than 45 degrees below the occlusal plane, optimal 15-30 from my understanding.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 5:32 am
Sceriff and Mewb liked
GoTTi
(@gotti)
100+ Forum Posts
Posted by: varbrah

As far as just expansion with MSE, the mandible should adapt fine as long as you do not expand the maxilla well beyond it. I’m using the MSE now and was able to expand from 41mm to 47mm (last measured a few days ago, probably 48mm now) IMW without disrupting my bite at all, but that’s because my lower jaw was already a bit wider.

So regarding this statement here. My lower jaw is actually more narrow than my upper, which should be ideal. By what you stated in the bold text, were you referring to not expanding too far past the maxilla to mandible width ratio? Just want to be crystal clear. 

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Posted : 03/10/2018 6:34 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

There’s no age limit on distraction osteogenesis, its a matter of whether or not you are comfortable with the hardware if that’s what you mean?. There is also BSSO which is surgical and will achieve the same result.

You can also just straight up go for expansion without protraction which will help unfuck your face and give you a better base for mewing.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 7:12 am
GoTTi liked
GoTTi
(@gotti)
100+ Forum Posts

Thanks again for the reply.

 

Well, I guess the second option would probably be ideal, but would take at least 10 years to see any siginificang change at my age which probably wouldn’t be too cosmetic at all.

 

I take it that the protraction aspect of your regimen is experimental? Have you witnessed any adult cases at all who have expanded both vertically and laterally with a similat regimen as yours showing LeFort surgery like results? Plato, the man who pretty much facilitated the face pulling movement made claims that the whole face would come forward from FP and create a “dent pulling” effect, giving you sort of a model-like face, which most importantly leads to better health & functionality. The aesthetic part shouldn’t be put before health, I know.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 7:58 am
varbrah
(@varbrah)
200+ Forum Posts

Protraction isn’t experimental. Expansion + protraction protocols have been in clinical use for decades, MARPE/MSE just makes expansion viable for adults, which loosens all of the perimaxillary sutures, therefore making protraction viable/more efficient.

There are some adult cases you can see, just google around.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 8:12 am
FutureModel and GoTTi liked
FutureModel
(@futuremodel)
100+ Forum Posts

@GoTTi Yes bro the Maxillary Skeletal expander combined with a face mask for pulling your maxilla will literally give you the same effect as a lefort 3. You could literally pull your maxilla up and forwards AND widen your palate all at the same time. If you want to be a model just get this procedure done lol it's a no brainer if you want to become really attractive imo

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Topic starter Posted : 03/10/2018 10:48 pm
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THE GREAT WORK

Warning:
Your Cranial Sutures Need To Be open for CranioSacral / Jaw Development!