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Please make ABSOLUTELY SURE that you are mewing properly because you may be WASTING YOUR TIME AND PROGRESS. A warning from me.  

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Yusu
 Yusu
Eminent Member

So, here it says back third should press

I am really confused. There is a other theory, that you should pull the back third...

 

I still dont understand

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/04/2020 4:14 pm
Yusu
 Yusu
Eminent Member

@ovosoundszn

yes, as many people mentioned

edit: not active pulling, just suction hold (which is a light puhll I think)

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/04/2020 4:59 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

It doesn't make sense to me for a person to constantly push on the palate. You may push when you swallow (push-swallow), but pushing 24 / 7 is just impossible. I mean, how are you gonna manage to keep the tongue engaged when asleep? I know that some people here will make the argument that long-term active pushing may be necessary for those with CFD to get up to speed as it were. While I agree that we here will need to put in great effort to get results, and that will entail some discomfort, especially when starting out, I think that our aim - our end goal - should be to make the process of mewing as natural as possible. And the fact is that constant pushing just isn't natural. Still, we need to keep our tongue up. And how does one keep his tongue up against the palate at rest without straining the muscles constantly? Suction, obviously.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2020 10:57 pm
moemoe
Active Member

Thank you @krollic for this informative post.

I bumped into the orthotropics' world in 2015. At the time the important piece of information I took was about breast feeding and baby lead weaning which led me into reading more about those topics as my partner and I were expecting a baby. As for myself I realized I was not swallowing properly and that I was mouth breathing more than I should so I tried to keep my lips sealed and place the tip of my tongue on the spot.

Now that my boy is 4 I delved into orthotropics again to make sure we helped him with proper oral posture and habits. It was good to realize that adults can benefit from bone molding so in the past week I've tried hard to mew properly. It took me 2 days to have the 3rd back of my tongue to get into the soft palate and this post helped me to reach even further back so that I could fit the tongue way behind the wisdom teeth and feel the pressure of the force forward on the full arch. I reckon starting from behind the wisdom teeth must be the best spot to push forward. Also a proper chin tuck is important as it feels the tongue pushing is not solely upwards. Theoretically the gravity would also hinder your efforts less.  

This morning though when I woke up my tongue was a bit sore and I can't get it as far back. It does not do as I instruct it. I reckon it's too tired from yesterday's workout?

M.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/04/2020 4:45 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

Honestly, all you need to do is have proper head posture and chin tuck. The further you can tuck your chin back and inwards the more upwards force will be generated by your tongue. It's honestly quite amazing trying to go as far and inwards as you can and realizing that our ancestors did this naturally and not only that the force generated from the tongue doing this would be applied to our ancestor's maxilla 24/7. The tongue is very powerful, I can achieve similar amounts of force from my tongue tucking my chin as far back as possible as I did when I had the rapid palatal expansion device which I believe was able to achieve 0.5 mm - 1 mm of expansion a day. The issue isn't bone remodeling but posture; if you were to suddenly have perfect head, body, neck, and tongue posture, your jaw would remodel very quick.

Easy to talk and make random theories, any personal experience to prove any of this? That maxilla can even move forward or upwards? Doesn't make sense to me to jam a bone into your brain/another brain, but okay.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/04/2020 4:44 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

I don't believe what I said to be true anymore, it's more of the opposite. I don't think the maxilla moves upwards or that upwards force does anything to remodel the maxilla upwards, the maxilla grows downwards (Enlow), chin tucking is bad for the most part because it intrudes on the airway and internal jugular vein, and high amounts of force isn't a good idea because it can damage the teeth.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/04/2020 3:37 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

I don't believe what I said to be true anymore, it's more of the opposite. I don't think the maxilla moves upwards or that upwards force does anything to remodel the maxilla upwards, the maxilla grows downwards (Enlow), chin tucking is bad for the most part because it intrudes on the airway and internal jugular vein, and high amounts of force isn't a good idea because it can damage the teeth.

That's what I thought as well, it didn't make sense to me that maxilla moved forward or upwards because it'd jam into your brain and cause a dorsal hump.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/04/2020 8:28 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus Are you saying you think the maxilla only moves downward through CCW rotation, or does that still involve some upward movement that is theoretically impossible? I understand how it could cause a dorsal hump to form, but I don't think a dorsal hump is synonymous with having too short of a face.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/04/2020 10:43 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@auxiliarus Are you saying you think the maxilla only moves downward through CCW rotation, or does that still involve some upward movement that is theoretically impossible? I understand how it could cause a dorsal hump to form, but I don't think a dorsal hump is synonymous with having too short of a face.

I think that the bone itself can remodel some upward movement in the lower part of the maxilla, however as a whole bone it can probably only rotate inside if that makes sense. That's just my own opinion though.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2020 7:30 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

I don't believe what I said to be true anymore, it's more of the opposite. I don't think the maxilla moves upwards or that upwards force does anything to remodel the maxilla upwards, the maxilla grows downwards (Enlow), chin tucking is bad for the most part because it intrudes on the airway and internal jugular vein, and high amounts of force isn't a good idea because it can damage the teeth.

That's what I thought as well, it didn't make sense to me that maxilla moved forward or upwards because it'd jam into your brain and cause a dorsal hump.

How would you explain helmutstrebl's correction of his dorsal hump by hard mewing? His eye support increased as well. If the maxilla is incapable of moving upwards, what do you believe caused his eyes to have increased orbital support?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2020 9:00 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @sinned
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

I don't believe what I said to be true anymore, it's more of the opposite. I don't think the maxilla moves upwards or that upwards force does anything to remodel the maxilla upwards, the maxilla grows downwards (Enlow), chin tucking is bad for the most part because it intrudes on the airway and internal jugular vein, and high amounts of force isn't a good idea because it can damage the teeth.

That's what I thought as well, it didn't make sense to me that maxilla moved forward or upwards because it'd jam into your brain and cause a dorsal hump.

How would you explain helmutstrebl's correction of his dorsal hump by hard mewing? His eye support increased as well. If the maxilla is incapable of moving upwards, what do you believe caused his eyes to have increased orbital support?

helmutstrebl barely had any changes, looking at his picture on Reddit he just pulled his hyoid up and changed the angle of the camera/his head. His ears don't align and their shape is different, suggesting alteration in the angle of the photo.

I can do the same thing, post a picture where my face looks better, just with angles and pulling hyoid upwards.

In terms of bone there isn't any evidence of an actual change, his eye support and brow ridge look the same, it looks like he has more chin projection, but again mostly likely because of more beard and different angle.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2020 12:32 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

helmutstrebl barely had any changes, looking at his picture on Reddit he just pulled his hyoid up and changed the angle of the camera/his head. His ears don't align and their shape is different, suggesting alteration in the angle of the photo.

I see you have never checked his insta out or ever tried overlapping the two progress pics at all. But saying he didn't have any changes is complete nonsense, no offense. His minor dorsal hump got straightened, eye support increased and eyes became more hooded.

And what? Angles? Ears don't align? They don't seem altered at all, they are practically the same in the before and after pics.

Not to mention hypocritical, coming from you since I remember pointing out you tilting your head backwards to show more forward growth:

Posted by: @auxiliarus

I can do the same thing, post a picture where my face looks better, just with angles and pulling hyoid upwards.

Please do. I'd love to see how you fix all your CFD symptoms by simply pulling your hyoid upwards.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

In terms of bone there isn't any evidence of an actual change, his eye support and brow ridge look the same, it looks like he has more chin projection, but again mostly likely because of more beard and different angle.

😂

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2020 1:02 pm
moemoe liked
sinned
Estimable Member

@azrael

The maxilla rotates, it's inaccurate to say it moves up or up and forwards.

Seems like the y-plate expander could cause facial lengthening ...

The anterior end moves up and forwards, the posterior end is moving down and forwards, it's easy to see when you look at the gonion and chin.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2020 4:52 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@azrael

The maxilla rotates, it's inaccurate to say it moves up or up and forwards.

Seems like the y-plate expander could cause facial lengthening ...

The anterior end moves up and forwards, the posterior end is moving down and forwards, it's easy to see when you look at the gonion and chin.

Yes, I agree, there's clearly rotation here but the amount of rotation is highly exaggerated by the incorrect angles and those red lines. As I tried aligning them by using his ear as the constant reference point, I noticed even the ears looked structurally different. Are these even the same sides or opposite sides of the face horizontally inverted?

Where did you find this, btw? Do you have a higher resolution?

But I don't see this kid gaining any significant amount of cheekbone projection or orbital support, his eye area still looks recessed after the maxillary rotation.

Also, since @auxiliary dodged answering my original question, I'll ask it from you:

How would you explain helmutstrebl's correction of his dorsal hump by hard mewing? His eye support increased as well. If the maxilla is incapable of moving upwards, what do you believe caused his eyes to have increased orbital support?

Another question: Hard mewing does the opposite of the suction hold (which pulls the rear of the maxilla down) according to my understanding. Is this also why hard mewing succeeds in giving better orbital support and cheekbone projection than suction hold? (Mike Mew advocates suction hold over any sort of "pushing" and even he doesn't have any cheekbone projection at all.)

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2020 9:59 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@azrael

Why MSE (maxillary expansion) won't expand mandible with maxilla ...

Here's a better picture, it's from forwarddontics, I think they used the bow appliance. 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/a-deviation-in-my-views-compared-to-the-mews/ - I basically agree with what TGW says.

If your CFD manifests itself in a crooked or hooked nose, then growing it to it's potential should fix that, the maxilla grows downwards and forwards, people lack forward growth because the tongue isn't on the roof of the mouth. 

I support using force or pushing the tongue, not a suction hold, this is the only way to make substantial change. I just have a different idea of what mewing does, pushing up flattens the tongue against the palate, widening it and therefore causing an expansion force against the inside of the palate and teeth. This supports my own experience, when I push up I feel the tongue flatten and widen, the pressure is against the teeth and insides of the palate. Pushing forward should help with forward growth.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 12:25 am
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@sinned @azrael

 

I think proper growth during adolescences and adult correction of improper growth might be two different movements. Helmuts being up and forwards and the young boys down and forwards. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 2:36 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@azrael

Why MSE (maxillary expansion) won't expand mandible with maxilla ...

Here's a better picture, it's from forwarddontics, I think they used the bow appliance. 

Thank you, that's a good enough resolution.

From the comparison, it's clear that the kid had to sacrifice his remaining orbital support and hooded eyes to achieve forward growth. This is precisely the flaw with what I see as plain and simple maxillary rotation. Your maxilla rotates CCW, ramus drops and mandible moves forward giving a better chin at the cost of recessed cheekbones and poorly supported eyes.

But helmutstrebl somehow achieved maxilla rotation, a forward shifted mandible (with a stronger chin) while increasing his cheekbone projection and orbital support as well — with hard mewing and no suction hold.

Posted by: @sinned

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/a-deviation-in-my-views-compared-to-the-mews/ - I basically agree with what TGW says.

If your CFD manifests itself in a crooked or hooked nose, then growing it to it's potential should fix that, the maxilla grows downwards and forwards, people lack forward growth because the tongue isn't on the roof of the mouth. 

I didn't read all the responses in that post, I will get to it later. But what do you mean by the above bolded phrase?

Posted by: @sinned

I support using force or pushing the tongue, not a suction hold, this is the only way to make substantial change. I just have a different idea of what mewing does, pushing up flattens the tongue against the palate, widening it and therefore causing an expansion force against the inside of the palate and teeth. This supports my own experience, when I push up I feel the tongue flatten and widen, the pressure is against the teeth and insides of the palate. Pushing forward should help with forward growth.

Precisely. This is also similar to the conclusion I'm considering these days.

Posted by: @robbie343

I think proper growth during adolescences and adult correction of improper growth might be two different movements. Helmuts being up and forwards and the young boys down and forwards. 

I think it's also because helmut had a longer ramus when he started than the kid which helped him to avoid significant downwards growth. But what you are saying could also be be possible.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 3:40 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@azrael

Clarifying the bold, as the tongue grows, so to does the maxilla, the maxilla widens and lengthens as well as being displaced forwards. In addition, the maxilla grows downwards, this is not affected by the tongue, so what's lacking is lateral and forward growth. A downwards tilted maxilla is a result of too much downward growth in relation to forward growth.

"An underdeveloped nasomaxillary complex looks downward grown because it's got more of it's downward development completed, and the forward development that needs to accompany it hasn't happened. " - TGW explains it better

gif 1

Here's a good gif, the maxilla rotates, to say the maxilla comes upwards isn't accurate, only the anterior portion comes up, the back drops down (just imagine the gif reversed). It's the back of the tongue your pushing up with, so why is it that the back of the maxilla comes down if you're pushing up with the back of the tongue? Furthermore, having the back of the maxilla come up wouldn't be a good thing either, that'd be intruding/jamming the airway.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327603721_Biomechanical_Effects_of_Fixed_Functional_Appliance_on_Craniofacial_Structures

Here's an interesting study on the effects of the herbst appliance which pushes the maxilla back. Although it was toothborne "the pterygoid plate was displaced in a posterosuperior direction". In other words, the whole of back of the maxillary complex went up and back, just as the gif is showing above. You want the back of the maxilla to come down and forwards, this frees the airway.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 7:07 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

gif 1

Here's a good gif, the maxilla rotates, to say the maxilla comes upwards isn't accurate, only the anterior portion comes up, the back drops down (just imagine the gif reversed). It's the back of the tongue your pushing up with, so why is it that the back of the maxilla comes down if you're pushing up with the back of the tongue?

Ah, I've seen this gif before. So CCW maxillary rotation seems to happen in both suction hold and hard mewing cases. This is probably why helmutstrebl was able to bring his mandible forward while increasing his eye support as well since the anterior portion of the maxilla comes up. Nicely explained, thank you.

But what I don't understand is if hard mewing and suction hold both help in achieving CCW rotation, why do suction hold users never achieve excellent orbital support and cheekbone projection like hard mewers? I have observed this a lot on Reddit and even Mike Mew who advocates the suction hold over any sort of pushing (soft or hard) seems to be lacking in those areas despite the amazing forward growth and jawline. Is it because the anterior portion of the maxilla (and thus the zygomatic bones) gets pushed upwards and forwards when hard mewing more than when holding the suction?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 8:21 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

@krollic Good post. I stickied it for increased exposure if you don't mind.

While the sides of my posterior tongue want to spread over the area just behind the wisdom teeth where the lower wings of the sphenoid (pterygoid hamulus) can be palpated near the very posterior edge of the hard palate, the center part of my posterior tongue can easily pass through between the pterygoid hamuluses towards the superior side of the palatal bone. Getting the posterior sides to push against the hamuluses of the sphenoid is probably the core utility of posterior mewing, as sphenoid is largely responsible for maintaining the shape of the cranium.

But what about the center-posterior tongue?  I can either tighten my posterior tongue so that it becomes narrow and is able to reach further up into the upper throat, or sacrifice some of this reach for increased sagittal spread over the hamulus/sphenoid wing area behind the wisdom teeth. I wonder if it's more important for the posterior sides to push the wings upward from below (red), or to spread them apart (blue). At the moment, both ways lead to different posterior posture. 

 

edit: thought it would be worth mentioning that at the time of writing this my IMW is 41 mm, which is a 5-6 mm increase from last year.

@Progress

As expected from you, a very interesting observation. When I focus on getting the center up I start to feel some pressure radiating trough my nose. I felt this from time to time, but never understood how I was able to achieve this. Assuming this pressure is positive, then this seems to be the key! Do you experience the same thing as I do?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 9:19 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@azrael

The maxilla rotates, it's inaccurate to say it moves up or up and forwards.

Seems like the y-plate expander could cause facial lengthening ...

The anterior end moves up and forwards, the posterior end is moving down and forwards, it's easy to see when you look at the gonion and chin.

We need x-ray pictures, like you can't just take this picture and say exactly what happened. The problem is he's tilting his head more and more in every picture. And no that's not forehead growth, the distance between eyes and ears didn't change, so he's tilting his head.

Looking at the changes with the pictures provided it's very reasonable to say that he grew his chin and ramus because of age and he's tilting his head, there's no evidence for anything more.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 9:44 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

We need x-ray pictures, like you can't just take this picture and say exactly what happened. The problem is he's tilting his head more and more in every picture. And no that's not forehead growth, the distance between eyes and ears didn't change, so he's tilting his head.

Looking at the changes with the pictures provided it's very reasonable to say that he grew his chin and ramus because of age and he's tilting his head, there's no evidence for anything more.

This is the flawed thinking of most "skeptics" imo. They are hilariously failing at differentiating legit progress pics from frauded ones as they wrongly believe every progress pic that is not an x-ray as (intentionally or unintentionally) frauded ones.

The head tilt (you did the exact same thing, btw) and the exaggerated positioning of the red lines is obvious to me, that's why I pointed them out in the first place. But I don't need x-rays like you to come to the conclusion that there actually has been some sort of positive development due to factors worth looking into. 

The differences between this kid and helmutstrebl's progress pics are as follows:

  1. The kid is tilting his head significantly while helmut is not (in the pic I posted) — the angle is the same.
  2. The kid is still growing while helmut is not — so it can't be attributed to his age or puberty which skeptics love doing.

I don't need x-rays to see a guy's eyes hooding or dorsal hump correcting over time, just because I view stuff online with some healthy skepticism. Meanwhile, you are rejecting everything and dismissing real progress pics just because they don't fit your theories and explanations.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 10:40 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

helmutstrebl barely had any changes, looking at his picture on Reddit he just pulled his hyoid up and changed the angle of the camera/his head. His ears don't align and their shape is different, suggesting alteration in the angle of the photo.

I see you have never checked his insta out or ever tried overlapping the two progress pics at all. But saying he didn't have any changes is complete nonsense, no offense. His minor dorsal hump got straightened, eye support increased and eyes became more hooded.

And what? Angles? Ears don't align? They don't seem altered at all, they are practically the same in the before and after pics.

Not to mention hypocritical, coming from you since I remember pointing out you tilting your head backwards to show more forward growth:

Posted by: @auxiliarus

I can do the same thing, post a picture where my face looks better, just with angles and pulling hyoid upwards.

Please do. I'd love to see how you fix all your CFD symptoms by simply pulling your hyoid upwards.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

In terms of bone there isn't any evidence of an actual change, his eye support and brow ridge look the same, it looks like he has more chin projection, but again mostly likely because of more beard and different angle.

😂

 

Wasn't consciously tilting my head, that's just how my head position is. Also in that thread I was making a point that I don't have any chin projection even with good mew line, why would I want extra chin projection what would be against my point? You're still stuck on that?

 

You can clearly see his position to light source is different, camera is closer in one of the photos and the angle of the camera is different :

 

EDIT : In left picture his chin is 574 pixels away from neck, in right it's 530 pixels. Relatively it would be 574 pixels vs 530 * 1243/1178 = 574 pixels vs 560 pixels. Further proving that there's literally either no difference in chin projection or on the right picture his chin became slightly more recessed. My guess, different camera angle made his chin length smaller on the after-picture.

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 10:42 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

We need x-ray pictures, like you can't just take this picture and say exactly what happened. The problem is he's tilting his head more and more in every picture. And no that's not forehead growth, the distance between eyes and ears didn't change, so he's tilting his head.

Looking at the changes with the pictures provided it's very reasonable to say that he grew his chin and ramus because of age and he's tilting his head, there's no evidence for anything more.

This is the flawed thinking of most "skeptics" imo. They are hilariously failing at differentiating legit progress pics from frauded ones as they wrongly believe every progress pic that is not an x-ray as (intentionally or unintentionally) frauded ones.

The head tilt (you did the exact same thing, btw) and the exaggerated positioning of the red lines is obvious to me, that's why I pointed them out in the first place. But I don't need x-rays like you to come to the conclusion that there actually has been some sort of positive development due to factors worth looking into. 

The differences between this kid and helmutstrebl's progress pics are as follows:

  1. The kid is tilting his head significantly while helmut is not (in the pic I posted) — the angle is the same.
  2. The kid is still growing while helmut is not — so it can't be attributed to his age or puberty which skeptics love doing.

I don't need x-rays to see a guy's eyes hooding or dorsal hump correcting over time, just because I view stuff online with some healthy skepticism. Meanwhile, you are rejecting everything and dismissing real progress pics just because they don't fit your theories and explanations.

I never said there wasn't any progress though, I said considering it's a young child in his puberty, in 4 years chin growth is very possible and with the head tilt there's no evidence to suggest that the angle of the maxilla or the position has changed.

By the way all you said about helmut is disproved in the reply before this one, trusting yourself to be able to spot exact camera angle with the eye is a sure way to trick yourself.

Also why don't you post picture of your own progress to enlighten us?

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 10:58 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Wasn't consciously tilting my head, that's just how my head position is.

And somehow, the very same argument doesn't apply to other people, according to you. They are all "playing" with angles.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Also in that thread I was making a point that I don't have any chin projection even with good mew line, why would I want extra chin projection what would be against my point? You're still stuck on that?

I didn't even talk about your chin, you are the one who said that you could "pull your hyoid up and look better", not me.

What I said was, you can't fake your mandible coming forward (without jutting, obviously), fix your dorsal hump and gain better orbital support and hooded eyes just by playing with angles and pulling your hyoid up.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

You can clearly see his position to light source is different, camera is closer in one of the photos and the angle of the camera is different :

 

7xxvtarz6oj21

Wow. You went out of your way to ignore the perfectly aligned (2 year) progress pic of helmutstrebl I posted above, to post the poorly aligned 1 year progress pic of him to argue against the points I made. At least crop the unnecessary bits and align them properly before going into all that effort.

Why don't you analyse the pic I posted with that same attention-to-detail? Or are you in too much self-denial to even contemplate doing so? 😂

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 11:01 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

We need x-ray pictures, like you can't just take this picture and say exactly what happened. The problem is he's tilting his head more and more in every picture. And no that's not forehead growth, the distance between eyes and ears didn't change, so he's tilting his head.

Looking at the changes with the pictures provided it's very reasonable to say that he grew his chin and ramus because of age and he's tilting his head, there's no evidence for anything more.

This is the flawed thinking of most "skeptics" imo. They are hilariously failing at differentiating legit progress pics from frauded ones as they wrongly believe every progress pic that is not an x-ray as (intentionally or unintentionally) frauded ones.

The head tilt (you did the exact same thing, btw) and the exaggerated positioning of the red lines is obvious to me, that's why I pointed them out in the first place. But I don't need x-rays like you to come to the conclusion that there actually has been some sort of positive development due to factors worth looking into. 

The differences between this kid and helmutstrebl's progress pics are as follows:

  1. The kid is tilting his head significantly while helmut is not (in the pic I posted) — the angle is the same.
  2. The kid is still growing while helmut is not — so it can't be attributed to his age or puberty which skeptics love doing.

I don't need x-rays to see a guy's eyes hooding or dorsal hump correcting over time, just because I view stuff online with some healthy skepticism. Meanwhile, you are rejecting everything and dismissing real progress pics just because they don't fit your theories and explanations.

I never said there wasn't any progress though, I said considering it's a young child in his puberty, in 4 years chin growth is very possible and with the head tilt there's no evidence to suggest that the angle of the maxilla or the position has changed.

By the way all you said about helmut is disproved in the reply before this one, trusting yourself to be able to spot exact camera angle with the eye is a sure way to trick yourself.

It isn't disproved at all when you are the only guy on this forum doubting his progress. You didn't even analyse the pic I posted and instead went for an older, poorly aligned progress pic of him just to try and prove an invalid point.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Also why don't you post picture of your own progress to enlighten us?

I wouldn't be too cocky if I were you because you have been doing this for months (or is it years?) longer than I have (I'm still on my 3rd month lol) and I am the one with the suture split, hollow cheeks and wide palate to show for it, no offense intended.

Also, you better hope I get nothing for progress as I have the thing you want the most - an x-ray before I started mewing. If I do end up with skeletal changes such as a CCW maxillary rotation, I will definitely post a progress (x-ray) pic here and tag you 😄

I'd love to see your skeptic dismissals then.

Also, right back at ya. Why don't you post a before and after? Surely you must have achieved insane progress after mewing for all this time?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 11:17 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/great-results-found-on-reddit/paged/6/#post-30400

I suggest you take a good look at all his pics before concluding his progress as something tampered with. No x-rays, though.😃

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/05/2020 11:26 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

We need x-ray pictures, like you can't just take this picture and say exactly what happened. The problem is he's tilting his head more and more in every picture. And no that's not forehead growth, the distance between eyes and ears didn't change, so he's tilting his head.

Looking at the changes with the pictures provided it's very reasonable to say that he grew his chin and ramus because of age and he's tilting his head, there's no evidence for anything more.

This is the flawed thinking of most "skeptics" imo. They are hilariously failing at differentiating legit progress pics from frauded ones as they wrongly believe every progress pic that is not an x-ray as (intentionally or unintentionally) frauded ones.

The head tilt (you did the exact same thing, btw) and the exaggerated positioning of the red lines is obvious to me, that's why I pointed them out in the first place. But I don't need x-rays like you to come to the conclusion that there actually has been some sort of positive development due to factors worth looking into. 

The differences between this kid and helmutstrebl's progress pics are as follows:

  1. The kid is tilting his head significantly while helmut is not (in the pic I posted) — the angle is the same.
  2. The kid is still growing while helmut is not — so it can't be attributed to his age or puberty which skeptics love doing.

I don't need x-rays to see a guy's eyes hooding or dorsal hump correcting over time, just because I view stuff online with some healthy skepticism. Meanwhile, you are rejecting everything and dismissing real progress pics just because they don't fit your theories and explanations.

I never said there wasn't any progress though, I said considering it's a young child in his puberty, in 4 years chin growth is very possible and with the head tilt there's no evidence to suggest that the angle of the maxilla or the position has changed.

By the way all you said about helmut is disproved in the reply before this one, trusting yourself to be able to spot exact camera angle with the eye is a sure way to trick yourself.

It isn't disproved at all when you are the only guy on this forum doubting his progress. You didn't even analyse the pic I posted and instead went for an older, poorly aligned progress pic of him just to try and prove an invalid point.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Also why don't you post picture of your own progress to enlighten us?

I wouldn't be too cocky if I were you because you have been doing this for months (or is it years?) longer than I have (I'm still on my 3rd month lol) and I am the one with the suture split, hollow cheeks and wide palate to show for it, no offense intended.

Also, you better hope I get nothing for progress as I have the thing you want the most - an x-ray before I started mewing. If I do end up with skeletal changes such as a CCW maxillary rotation, I will definitely post a progress (x-ray) pic here and tag you 😄

I'd love to see your skeptic dismissals then.

 

I analyzed them. In the first picture you can see huge difference in the back of the neck angle, indicating forward head posture in his newer-after picture and puffing of chest to get a better chin projection :

Further analysis of ears proves either change in shape of the ears or a different horizontal camera angle, I'll take a different camera angle as a bet any day though, no way the shape of his ears changed in 3 months :

In my opinion this newer picture is even worse, while the distance of the camera and lighting have been fixed, the neck posture and the horizontal camera angle is way different than in the older-after picture. So yeah, as I said before, the evidence points to camera trickery.

And please, show me your before-afters, I want to see those changes in 3 months of suture split, hollow cheeks and wide palate.

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Posted : 01/05/2020 12:05 pm
moemoe
Active Member

There is certainly differences in angle but one has to be acting in bad faith to not see the undeniable changes.

M.

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Posted : 01/05/2020 12:19 pm
Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @moemoe

There is certainly differences in angle but one has to be acting in bad faith to not see the undeniable changes.

M.

One is acting in bad faith when he trusts his eyes and subjective interpretations instead of doing objective measurements. Which is the reason why I never did a before/after picture, it's impossible to take same angle/distance picture on your own with a selfie. I've had 4mm IMW improvement and a fWHR improvement from 1,69 to 1,9 , I'm not a skeptic, but it's easy to fool people with camera tricks.

 

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Posted : 01/05/2020 12:25 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

Just look at salludon chad | Looksmax.me - Mens Self-Improvement Forum

If helmut had surgeries, I would like to know his surgeon and what kind of surgeries were able to transform his face like this. I doubted before but it's hard to believe it's fake because I've never seen a surgery transformation which improves someone's eye area/support so much, it's actually unbelievable.

@Azrael

Personally I think suction hold is only useful for preventing further regression and uprighting the teeth. As for actual growth I don't think suction hold does anything, you need force, especially when you're older and aren't growing anymore, I personally think forward growth is what rotates the maxilla and that forward growth in addition to lateral growth is what improves eye support

 

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Posted : 01/05/2020 3:50 pm
Azrael liked
Progress
Member Moderator

@azrael

@auxiliarus

Deleted a bunch of low-value posts from both of you. If you are unable to debate in a constructive and mature manner, then please gentlemen, in the name of all that is good, refrain from posting at all. Provocative rhetoric, arrogant sneering and useless insults only serve to undermine the carefully cultivated atmosphere of our community, an outcome which benefits no one. I'm asking you to have the sense to conduct yourself better in the future. Thank you.

 

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Posted : 01/05/2020 4:10 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

@azrael

@auxiliarus

Deleted a bunch of low-value posts from both of you. If you are unable to debate in a constructive and mature manner, then please gentlemen, in the name of all that is good, refrain from posting at all. Provocative rhetoric, arrogant sneering and useless insults only serve to undermine the carefully cultivated atmosphere of our community, an outcome which benefits no one. I'm asking you to have the sense to conduct yourself better in the future. Thank you.

Yeah, okay, my bad. Got carried away too much, I'm afraid. Sorry, won't happen again 😅

This is the one place without toxicity for orthotropics and I will help it to stay that way. Sorry once again.

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Posted : 01/05/2020 4:21 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

Just look at salludon chad | Looksmax.me - Mens Self-Improvement Forum

If helmut had surgeries, I would like to know his surgeon and what kind of surgeries were able to transform his face like this. I doubted before but it's hard to believe it's fake because I've never seen a surgery transformation which improves someone's eye area/support so much, it's actually unbelievable.

@Azrael

Personally I think suction hold is only useful for preventing further regression and uprighting the teeth. As for actual growth I don't think suction hold does anything, you need force, especially when you're older and aren't growing anymore, I personally think forward growth is what rotates the maxilla and that forward growth in addition to lateral growth is what improves eye support

 

You can't trust your eyes subjectively, look at neck-theory, it makes people's face look different when only the width of the neck changes.

Look at these buccal fat pad removals, a lot of them make the rest of the face look different as well :

 

Not only that but it's very possible he had a facial uplift done as well with the buccal fat pad removal.

 

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Posted : 01/05/2020 5:09 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

These pictures kind of prove my point, none of these results look that great or significant, in fact they look kind of weird. Helmut looks much better and more natural, and we can see helmut in motion while these are just pictures.

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Posted : 01/05/2020 6:08 pm
Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

These pictures kind of prove my point, none of these results look that great or significant, in fact they look kind of weird. Helmut looks much better and more natural, and we can see helmut in motion while these are just pictures.

Yeah, but a lot of these people have really bad facial shape, helmut already started looking good.

I think these in particular are very impressive though and I'm personally not against surgery, I don't think many who had will admit it it's a very big taboo. Almost every big male actor has surgery/implant/growth hormone type of [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] going on. I don't think a plastic surgeon will remove enough fat though, I heard that a lot of facial fat disappears with aging, so the surgery can actually make you look like [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] when you're just slightly older. So then it's logical the plastic surgeon won't make you look like a model, only slightly better look.

I don't get why do surgery and risk it though, there's gotta be a better way like transdermal adrenal stims.

 

 

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Posted : 01/05/2020 8:08 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

These pictures kind of prove my point, none of these results look that great or significant, in fact they look kind of weird. Helmut looks much better and more natural, and we can see helmut in motion while these are just pictures.

It's pointless sinned, you can't sway someone who's this strongly biased and narrow-minded with logic. They won't believe anything unless the same unconditionally happens to them somehow. Which is hilarious and won't ever likely happen, especially with such a mindset.

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Posted : 02/05/2020 12:08 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

These pictures kind of prove my point, none of these results look that great or significant, in fact they look kind of weird. Helmut looks much better and more natural, and we can see helmut in motion while these are just pictures.

It's pointless sinned, you can't sway someone who's this strongly biased and narrow-minded with logic. They won't believe anything unless the same unconditionally happens to them somehow. Which is hilarious and won't ever likely happen, especially with such a mindset.

EDIT : If you want to look like that guy, just find a reputable place with good reviews, make sure it's safe and get a surgery done, no shame in it, bud.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/05/2020 7:49 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

These pictures kind of prove my point, none of these results look that great or significant, in fact they look kind of weird. Helmut looks much better and more natural, and we can see helmut in motion while these are just pictures.

It's pointless sinned, you can't sway someone who's this strongly biased and narrow-minded with logic. They won't believe anything unless the same unconditionally happens to them somehow. Which is hilarious and won't ever likely happen, especially with such a mindset.

EDIT : If you want to look like that guy, just find a reputable place with good reviews, make sure it's safe and get a surgery done, no shame in it, bud.

Surgery? Look who's talking. I didn't need surgery to split my suture or start finally seeing hollowing in my cheeks (probably because of the lateral widening of my cheekbones due to palatal expansion from the suture staying split for 2.5 months? and proper swallowing) or correct my forward neck (which you still have I might add, after YEARS of mewing) and I managed all that in my FIRST 3 MONTHS.

So there's no question that I am going to see more progress in the next three years than you in the next three decades. I never intended to look like helmutstrebl because my genetic potential is completely different from his, so that's another argument of yours which is invalid.

Also, I have not even started hitting the gym (since I'm a lean, healthy weight) but imagine how much my face will improve with an even lower body fat percentage. There's nothing but potential ahead of me and at the rate I am learning something new everyday with an open mind (unlike you) I am inevitably going to become the best version of me in a few years.

I practically pointed out every flaw in your baseless arguments yesterday before Progress deleted the replies, so I don't think I need to say anything else here. You can keep jeering at other successful people all you want. Hope you find some peace from it. 😂✌️Cya

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Posted : 02/05/2020 9:26 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

These pictures kind of prove my point, none of these results look that great or significant, in fact they look kind of weird. Helmut looks much better and more natural, and we can see helmut in motion while these are just pictures.

It's pointless sinned, you can't sway someone who's this strongly biased and narrow-minded with logic. They won't believe anything unless the same unconditionally happens to them somehow. Which is hilarious and won't ever likely happen, especially with such a mindset.

EDIT : If you want to look like that guy, just find a reputable place with good reviews, make sure it's safe and get a surgery done, no shame in it, bud.

Surgery? Look who's talking. I didn't need surgery to split my suture or start finally seeing hollowing in my cheeks (probably because of the lateral widening of my cheekbones due to palatal expansion from the suture staying split for 2.5 months? and proper swallowing) or correct my forward neck (which you still have I might add, after YEARS of mewing) and I managed all that in my FIRST 3 MONTHS.

So there's no question that I am going to see more progress in the next three years than you in the next three decades. I never intended to look like helmutstrebl because my genetic potential is completely different from his, so that's another argument of yours which is invalid.

Also, I have not even started hitting the gym (since I'm a lean, healthy weight) but imagine how much my face will improve with an even lower body fat percentage. There's nothing but potential ahead of me and at the rate I am learning something new everyday with an open mind (unlike you) I am inevitably going to become the best version of me in a few years.

I practically pointed out every flaw in your baseless arguments yesterday before Progress deleted the replies, so I don't think I need to say anything else here. You can keep jeering at other successful people all you want. Hope you find some peace from it. 😂✌️Cya

You seem very angry, there's no shame in therapy, bro. Chill out, Buddha said you will be punished not for your anger, but by your anger and I live by those words, and truly believe in them.

The person in question, who has the same username as a famous shredded body-builder that I believe died, has stopped updating his mewing progress. I think it's very possible he went on to forums that I believe we're not allowed to talk about here, where he got convinced he didn't look good and got a surgery. Either way he never said or updated anything, I find it weird if he had such a crazy effect in his cheekbones that he didn't do it.

Not only that but he seems to be an outlier, just like jamo, jamo started during puberty though which could've made changes much stronger. As for hundreds of people that mew none has seen, including jamo, a result like that in cheekbones. It also looks very fake/plastic and unnatural, I've never seen people with perfect genetics looking like that, it's just too unnatural and the changes are too big for mewing, it's mostly likely a surgery, man.

I know you want the same cheekbones, but I'll tell you this : in a few years if you still don't have those cheekbones and you're very insecure about them there's no shame in surgery. Either way if you post your face I bet you look good and healthy man, these are just unreal standards pressuring you.

 

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Posted : 02/05/2020 10:41 am
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