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Photoshop Surgeon Perfection Mask  

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Apollo
Reputable Member

There's a channel on youtube called photoshop surgeon that takes photos of celebrities and retouches their faces to fit an aesthetic template. I've attached here the male template. I couldn't find a transparency of the female template. I'm also unsure how the template was created. I think it is a modification of the golden ratio mask that has been adjusted based on a melding of features from attractive male and female celebrities, models, etc. After the photoshop manipulations, the faces always look more symmetrical but don't always look more attractive. I've only watched a few videos but it seems like the men often look worse after the changes, so maybe the template is flawed. It seems like the female template often shortens faces whereas the male template often lengthens faces. When I put the male template over my own photo, my asymmetries stand out, but my proportions are pretty close to the mask. My eyebrows are higher and larger than the template, my hairline is receded from the line on the template, and my cheekbones/hollows aren't really apparent, but my eyes, nose, mouth, and jawline are pretty close to the positions on the template except for some asymmetric deviations, especially in the bridge of my nose. I'm not sure if this is a good standard, but I thought it was interesting to play around with.

Quote
Posted : 19/02/2018 4:46 pm
Lostforlifeee, bennycoco, Surgeon and 2 people liked
Jackson
 Jackson
Guest

On average, the male face is taller than the female face, regardless of oral posture. Meaning a mouth breathing male will have a taller face than a mouth breathing female, and a mewing male will have a taller face than a mewing female. Also, facial symmetry is something more impressive in real life motion, rather than pictures. There could of course be some flawed elements to the design of the mask, and doesn't truly reflect what is viewed as attractive (facially) which varies by culture and region, but usually has some of the same underlying elements.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/02/2018 5:52 pm
Apollo liked
CaroEnriquez
New Member

Could you please upload the woman perfection mask?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/06/2018 5:14 pm
djwaas, Kmt and Ohokay liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: CaroEnriquez

Could you please upload the woman perfection mask?

Posted by: Apollo
 
I couldn't find a transparency of the female template.
You might be able to use a photo editor to cut out just the mask lines from one of the female images using a color select tool.
ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/06/2018 5:31 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Men's taller faces are the result of a longer lower third compared to the middle third. This is why men have longer faces even with ideal development. Our ramus is longer vertically and proportionately our palate is wider which allows the mandible to advance more. These factors combined give men their longer/taller faces.

Notice I didn't mention anything about a midface. A long midface is not ideal on anyone as it weakens the other features and makes the nose too big of a focal point. This isn't a male nor female trait but visible cfd

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/06/2018 1:03 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Great example of long midface

/revision/20111216200027

David Schwimmer has not only a short lower third compared to his middle third, but the distance between his pupils is much shorter than the distance between his pupils and upper lip. So on those two counts he has a long midface. 

Faces like this are seen as stereotypical Near Eastern/Jewish phenotypes but truthfully I see them occur in many populations regardless of race. Generally people with cfd like this tend to be non athletic and can conform to "nerdy" stereotypes. My theory on that is that studious people (due to sitting a lot) develop bad posture. Certainly affected me that way and I am not Jewish / Arab at all (I have been mistaken for it a lot though). But what I am and was is a very studious guy and not super athletic so it makes sense that my face developed like that. Mewing has helped a ton though. My jaw development has improved so much that my midface is not even that much of an issue now.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/06/2018 2:33 pm
Rockyp33 liked
Keengo
Trusted Member

It's interesting how David Schwimmer -- even with a long midface -- still isn't not goodlooking though. I mean people usually associate long midface with ugly since it's like the nose is stretched and the whole middle of the face. But Schwimmer is still decent looking even with this.

I tried this surgeon perfect mask and everything fits perfectly except for my nose being longer (midface-related I bet) and face being taller. Same with other golden ratio masks -- my face has the potential to fit it, but lacks proportion (midface a bit too long -- lower-third a bit weak due to a high gonial angle -- cheekbones a bit too narrow).

But I don't know where the evidence would be that any of this is CFD vs. genetics. I don't run down the whole "it's all genetics and give up" ideals that come from certain viewpoints, but how do you know Schwimmer's face isn't genetically influenced vs. environment/diet/posture/etc.?

He doesn't look recessed/mouthbreather/etc. His lower third isn't as long as it could be, but he doesn't have horrible downward grow; a non-existent chin; a really high gonial angle; etc. I can't tell how you could be sure it's genetics or not when plenty of guys have Schwimmer-esque faces -- not ugly but long midface and low FWHR meaning face obviously looks more narrower.

Are you saying that anyone with a long midface like Schwimmer's has CFD/issues? It's never just natural like that? So narrow faces should not exist? Because that's the holy grail of the long midface curse -- low FWHR (bad for men more than women). Anyone with a noticeably long midface tends to have the "goofy" look and lower FWHR than more compact-faced people.

I know the whole PLSI sphere of the internet agrees that certain features are all "genetic" because that's how you ended up looking as an adult and it's not easy to change the older you get exactly. The idea is that your face ended up how it was supposed to, and it did so because of genes primarily. This guy, Johnny Sanza, was a major ridiculed member of the site PUAHate (doesn't exist anymore) who was roasted and called ugly and still has this title today. He's known as a "legendary incel" because he's known for his melted/recessed look:

Interestingly he grew up with good posture, diet, and even played hockey a lot (family is pretty well off, I think). He says he was a good looking kid but apparently "turned ugly" when he was in his teens. He looks like he has a myriad of issues -- mostly his jaw and the fact his face looks melted. Is it genetic? Can't say. It poses a good argument because not everyone who grows up has these bad features/development, even on a case-to-case basis. At the same time I don't agree with the "it's all genetics" mindset, it's hard to argue when cases like this exist. Either way the guy above has basically given up in life last I heard because of his appearance.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/06/2018 5:24 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

It's interesting how David Schwimmer -- even with a long midface -- still isn't not goodlooking though. I mean people usually associate long midface with ugly since it's like the nose is stretched and the whole middle of the face. But Schwimmer is still decent looking even with this.

I tried this surgeon perfect mask and everything fits perfectly except for my nose being longer (midface-related I bet) and face being taller. Same with other golden ratio masks -- my face has the potential to fit it, but lacks proportion (midface a bit too long -- lower-third a bit weak due to a high gonial angle -- cheekbones a bit too narrow).

But I don't know where the evidence would be that any of this is CFD vs. genetics. I don't run down the whole "it's all genetics and give up" ideals that come from certain viewpoints, but how do you know Schwimmer's face isn't genetically influenced vs. environment/diet/posture/etc.?

He doesn't look recessed/mouthbreather/etc. His lower third isn't as long as it could be, but he doesn't have horrible downward grow; a non-existent chin; a really high gonial angle; etc. I can't tell how you could be sure it's genetics or not when plenty of guys have Schwimmer-esque faces -- not ugly but long midface and low FWHR meaning face obviously looks more narrower.

Are you saying that anyone with a long midface like Schwimmer's has CFD/issues? It's never just natural like that? So narrow faces should not exist? Because that's the holy grail of the long midface curse -- low FWHR (bad for men more than women). Anyone with a noticeably long midface tends to have the "goofy" look and lower FWHR than more compact-faced people.

I know the whole PLSI sphere of the internet agrees that certain features are all "genetic" because that's how you ended up looking as an adult and it's not easy to change the older you get exactly. The idea is that your face ended up how it was supposed to, and it did so because of genes primarily. This guy, Johnny Sanza, was a major ridiculed member of the site PUAHate (doesn't exist anymore) who was roasted and called ugly and still has this title today. He's known as a "legendary incel" because he's known for his melted/recessed look:

Interestingly he grew up with good posture, diet, and even played hockey a lot (family is pretty well off, I think). He says he was a good looking kid but apparently "turned ugly" when he was in his teens. He looks like he has a myriad of issues -- mostly his jaw and the fact his face looks melted. Is it genetic? Can't say. It poses a good argument because not everyone who grows up has these bad features/development, even on a case-to-case basis. At the same time I don't agree with the "it's all genetics" mindset, it's hard to argue when cases like this exist. Either way the guy above has basically given up in life last I heard because of his appearance.

I don't know about Johnny but David isn't considered attractive facially by most women I know. He never was considered a sex symbol and in fact was the goofy dork of the cast of Friends. Matt LeBlanc on the other hand had a very forward jaw and square face as was considered a hunk. Maybe the character of Ross endeared David to many female fans based on the show's plotline but tbh I don't know that David is considered aesthetic at all. He certainly hasn't been called even cute by anyone I know. But away from the subjective stuff...

His face looks like a product of extraction orthodontics if you ask me. He has very visible maxillary and mandibular recession from the side. His Mew indicator line would easily be above 50mm considering how far back his incisors are from his nose. He also has very pronounced submental folds. These too are common in orthodontics cases of extractions (it seems Vin Diesel has similar jaw development except his upper jaw doesn't seem to have had extractions). To your comment about his gonial angle, to me it does look like it is rather high and like his mandible is tucked into his face. 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3y582ArzQXYb4_jqjSOaoTNqc_-0lPpA7E93eXYoStH1CiXXk

David's profile reminds me of many people with apnea. Narrow upper arch, incisors very far from nose tip, small mandible. His chin projection is decent but I also think if he had extractions on the top and lower arch that this would help with chin development and projection since the teeth are further back.

Am I saying it is for sure? Probably not. All I know is he has classic long face that is seen in many mouthbreathers. Also I am older than most of you on this forum and actually was around to watch Friends. He certainly is a mouthbreather because his mouth hangs open a lot in the show. 

As far as JSanza is concerned, I can't comment since I don't know his story. I also know he is terrible at taking pics from most I have seen.  If I was as close to the camera as he always is in his shots I too would look severely melted. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/06/2018 6:36 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Keengo

It's interesting how David Schwimmer -- even with a long midface -- still isn't not goodlooking though. I mean people usually associate long midface with ugly since it's like the nose is stretched and the whole middle of the face. But Schwimmer is still decent looking even with this.

I tried this surgeon perfect mask and everything fits perfectly except for my nose being longer (midface-related I bet) and face being taller. Same with other golden ratio masks -- my face has the potential to fit it, but lacks proportion (midface a bit too long -- lower-third a bit weak due to a high gonial angle -- cheekbones a bit too narrow).

But I don't know where the evidence would be that any of this is CFD vs. genetics. I don't run down the whole "it's all genetics and give up" ideals that come from certain viewpoints, but how do you know Schwimmer's face isn't genetically influenced vs. environment/diet/posture/etc.?

He doesn't look recessed/mouthbreather/etc. His lower third isn't as long as it could be, but he doesn't have horrible downward grow; a non-existent chin; a really high gonial angle; etc. I can't tell how you could be sure it's genetics or not when plenty of guys have Schwimmer-esque faces -- not ugly but long midface and low FWHR meaning face obviously looks more narrower.

Are you saying that anyone with a long midface like Schwimmer's has CFD/issues? It's never just natural like that? So narrow faces should not exist? Because that's the holy grail of the long midface curse -- low FWHR (bad for men more than women). Anyone with a noticeably long midface tends to have the "goofy" look and lower FWHR than more compact-faced people.

I know the whole PLSI sphere of the internet agrees that certain features are all "genetic" because that's how you ended up looking as an adult and it's not easy to change the older you get exactly. The idea is that your face ended up how it was supposed to, and it did so because of genes primarily. This guy, Johnny Sanza, was a major ridiculed member of the site PUAHate (doesn't exist anymore) who was roasted and called ugly and still has this title today. He's known as a "legendary incel" because he's known for his melted/recessed look:

Interestingly he grew up with good posture, diet, and even played hockey a lot (family is pretty well off, I think). He says he was a good looking kid but apparently "turned ugly" when he was in his teens. He looks like he has a myriad of issues -- mostly his jaw and the fact his face looks melted. Is it genetic? Can't say. It poses a good argument because not everyone who grows up has these bad features/development, even on a case-to-case basis. At the same time I don't agree with the "it's all genetics" mindset, it's hard to argue when cases like this exist. Either way the guy above has basically given up in life last I heard because of his appearance.

I don't know about Johnny but David isn't considered attractive facially by most women I know. He never was considered a sex symbol and in fact was the goofy dork of the cast of Friends. Matt LeBlanc on the other hand had a very forward jaw and square face as was considered a hunk. Maybe the character of Ross endeared David to many female fans based on the show's plotline but tbh I don't know that David is considered aesthetic at all. He certainly hasn't been called even cute by anyone I know. But away from the subjective stuff...

His face looks like a product of extraction orthodontics if you ask me. He has very visible maxillary and mandibular recession from the side. His Mew indicator line would easily be above 50mm considering how far back his incisors are from his nose. He also has very pronounced submental folds. These too are common in orthodontics cases of extractions (it seems Vin Diesel has similar jaw development except his upper jaw doesn't seem to have had extractions). To your comment about his gonial angle, to me it does look like it is rather high and like his mandible is tucked into his face. 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3y582ArzQXYb4_jqjSOaoTNqc_-0lPpA7E93eXYoStH1CiXXk

David's profile reminds me of many people with apnea. Narrow upper arch, incisors very far from nose tip, small mandible. His chin projection is decent but I also think if he had extractions on the top and lower arch that this would help with chin development and projection since the teeth are further back.

Am I saying it is for sure? Probably not. All I know is he has classic long face that is seen in many mouthbreathers. Also I am older than most of you on this forum and actually was around to watch Friends. He certainly is a mouthbreather because his mouth hangs open a lot in the show. 

As far as JSanza is concerned, I can't comment since I don't know his story. I also know he is terrible at taking pics from most I have seen.  If I was as close to the camera as he always is in his shots I too would look severely melted. 

Well I agree that JSanza isn't "ugly ugly" but he looks unattractive still you could say. Also, I have watched pretty much every episode of Friends and do remember Schwimmer/Ross keeping his mouth open. Maybe you're right, but it still doesn't explain how some guys end up looking like God-tier models while growing up without knowledge of oral posture; not having good diet; etc., whereas others end up being below even typical looking or even full-on ugly -- like JSanza. 

The idea behind these forums and skull development is that everyone should -- in an ideal world -- at least be "average looking" or "decent" through correct bone development, formation, posture and whatnot -- but this is a longshot for some people still due to bad development, which could/could not be most-entirely genetic or otherwise. Makes you wonder if "proper development" has anything to do with good looks, or if it's just 90% genetics and whatever plastic surgery can do for people. I also don't think your looks are always 100% constant: people change.

 

EDIT: Also, how the hell does this thread have thousands of views? Linked from somewhere else?

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/06/2018 5:36 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Keengo
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Keengo

It's interesting how David Schwimmer -- even with a long midface -- still isn't not goodlooking though. I mean people usually associate long midface with ugly since it's like the nose is stretched and the whole middle of the face. But Schwimmer is still decent looking even with this.

I tried this surgeon perfect mask and everything fits perfectly except for my nose being longer (midface-related I bet) and face being taller. Same with other golden ratio masks -- my face has the potential to fit it, but lacks proportion (midface a bit too long -- lower-third a bit weak due to a high gonial angle -- cheekbones a bit too narrow).

But I don't know where the evidence would be that any of this is CFD vs. genetics. I don't run down the whole "it's all genetics and give up" ideals that come from certain viewpoints, but how do you know Schwimmer's face isn't genetically influenced vs. environment/diet/posture/etc.?

He doesn't look recessed/mouthbreather/etc. His lower third isn't as long as it could be, but he doesn't have horrible downward grow; a non-existent chin; a really high gonial angle; etc. I can't tell how you could be sure it's genetics or not when plenty of guys have Schwimmer-esque faces -- not ugly but long midface and low FWHR meaning face obviously looks more narrower.

Are you saying that anyone with a long midface like Schwimmer's has CFD/issues? It's never just natural like that? So narrow faces should not exist? Because that's the holy grail of the long midface curse -- low FWHR (bad for men more than women). Anyone with a noticeably long midface tends to have the "goofy" look and lower FWHR than more compact-faced people.

I know the whole PLSI sphere of the internet agrees that certain features are all "genetic" because that's how you ended up looking as an adult and it's not easy to change the older you get exactly. The idea is that your face ended up how it was supposed to, and it did so because of genes primarily. This guy, Johnny Sanza, was a major ridiculed member of the site PUAHate (doesn't exist anymore) who was roasted and called ugly and still has this title today. He's known as a "legendary incel" because he's known for his melted/recessed look:

Interestingly he grew up with good posture, diet, and even played hockey a lot (family is pretty well off, I think). He says he was a good looking kid but apparently "turned ugly" when he was in his teens. He looks like he has a myriad of issues -- mostly his jaw and the fact his face looks melted. Is it genetic? Can't say. It poses a good argument because not everyone who grows up has these bad features/development, even on a case-to-case basis. At the same time I don't agree with the "it's all genetics" mindset, it's hard to argue when cases like this exist. Either way the guy above has basically given up in life last I heard because of his appearance.

I don't know about Johnny but David isn't considered attractive facially by most women I know. He never was considered a sex symbol and in fact was the goofy dork of the cast of Friends. Matt LeBlanc on the other hand had a very forward jaw and square face as was considered a hunk. Maybe the character of Ross endeared David to many female fans based on the show's plotline but tbh I don't know that David is considered aesthetic at all. He certainly hasn't been called even cute by anyone I know. But away from the subjective stuff...

His face looks like a product of extraction orthodontics if you ask me. He has very visible maxillary and mandibular recession from the side. His Mew indicator line would easily be above 50mm considering how far back his incisors are from his nose. He also has very pronounced submental folds. These too are common in orthodontics cases of extractions (it seems Vin Diesel has similar jaw development except his upper jaw doesn't seem to have had extractions). To your comment about his gonial angle, to me it does look like it is rather high and like his mandible is tucked into his face. 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3y582ArzQXYb4_jqjSOaoTNqc_-0lPpA7E93eXYoStH1CiXXk

David's profile reminds me of many people with apnea. Narrow upper arch, incisors very far from nose tip, small mandible. His chin projection is decent but I also think if he had extractions on the top and lower arch that this would help with chin development and projection since the teeth are further back.

Am I saying it is for sure? Probably not. All I know is he has classic long face that is seen in many mouthbreathers. Also I am older than most of you on this forum and actually was around to watch Friends. He certainly is a mouthbreather because his mouth hangs open a lot in the show. 

As far as JSanza is concerned, I can't comment since I don't know his story. I also know he is terrible at taking pics from most I have seen.  If I was as close to the camera as he always is in his shots I too would look severely melted. 

Well I agree that JSanza isn't "ugly ugly" but he looks unattractive still you could say. Also, I have watched pretty much every episode of Friends and do remember Schwimmer/Ross keeping his mouth open. Maybe you're right, but it still doesn't explain how some guys end up looking like God-tier models while growing up without knowledge of oral posture; not having good diet; etc., whereas others end up being below even typical looking or even full-on ugly -- like JSanza. 

The idea behind these forums and skull development is that everyone should -- in an ideal world -- at least be "average looking" or "decent" through correct bone development, formation, posture and whatnot -- but this is a longshot for some people still due to bad development, which could/could not be most-entirely genetic or otherwise. Makes you wonder if "proper development" has anything to do with good looks, or if it's just 90% genetics and whatever plastic surgery can do for people. I also don't think your looks are always 100% constant: people change.

 

EDIT: Also, how the hell does this thread have thousands of views? Linked from somewhere else?

The men/women who grow up good looking without knowledge of posture etc were probably breastfed for enough time for the breastfeeding to ingrain good oral and postural habits. My husband is like this, breastfed for 18 months, no idea or concern about any of the things we discuss, yet he swallows correctly, appears to have a fairly wide intermolar width, good posture with no effort and tongue on the roof of his mouth at rest. He even OMCs and has his whole life. Rarely do I see a maxilla like his except pictures on the internet/magazines of beautiful people. Probably not a surprise to say this, but he looked like a male model when he was younger. Yet his diet was pretty garbage and he grew up poor.

This is why I kind of mocked the guy who came here with the video about getting your kids to chew tough foods and coaching them to put their tongue on the roof of their mouth. Not a chance you'll get the tongue on the roof of the mouth just by asking a toddler. Maybe if you're lucky. And if they don't like the tough food you serve, good luck not getting it thrown all over the place, LOL. And what about infancy? If the mother can't breastfeed for whatever reason, you'd have better luck getting them in to therapy, using oral sensory tools and following guidelines like how Downs Syndrome children are helped to prevent mouthbreathing etc and getting their oral development on track and healthy. But otherwise it's breastfeeding that establishes these ingrained good habits in early life.

It's tough because not every woman wants to breastfeed, or can, for various reasons. You can give your children the gift of pre-puberty braces, which I got, and yes it will give you a good-looking face, but you won't necessarily have the ingrained habits to maintain that face...

I have my complaints about parenting trends like the so-called attachment parenting method, which seems so crazy to me I'm sure it's probably driven some to the loony bin. But at least these women are breastfeeding, even if their concerns are misplaced (their seemingly only concern is "attachment", and proper skull development doesn't tend to be a concern). They are the only type of parents I tend to see that breastfeed their child(ren), and I can tell they adopt that parenting style because of the way they hover over their kin and invent or seize every opportunity possible to coach them about their feelings, LOL. But whatever, they get it done.

Also I disagree about FWHR not being as important for women, a bad scoring on this for either sex indicates CFD and that is not good for everyone.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2018 2:14 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Keengo
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Keengo

It's interesting how David Schwimmer -- even with a long midface -- still isn't not goodlooking though. I mean people usually associate long midface with ugly since it's like the nose is stretched and the whole middle of the face. But Schwimmer is still decent looking even with this.

I tried this surgeon perfect mask and everything fits perfectly except for my nose being longer (midface-related I bet) and face being taller. Same with other golden ratio masks -- my face has the potential to fit it, but lacks proportion (midface a bit too long -- lower-third a bit weak due to a high gonial angle -- cheekbones a bit too narrow).

But I don't know where the evidence would be that any of this is CFD vs. genetics. I don't run down the whole "it's all genetics and give up" ideals that come from certain viewpoints, but how do you know Schwimmer's face isn't genetically influenced vs. environment/diet/posture/etc.?

He doesn't look recessed/mouthbreather/etc. His lower third isn't as long as it could be, but he doesn't have horrible downward grow; a non-existent chin; a really high gonial angle; etc. I can't tell how you could be sure it's genetics or not when plenty of guys have Schwimmer-esque faces -- not ugly but long midface and low FWHR meaning face obviously looks more narrower.

Are you saying that anyone with a long midface like Schwimmer's has CFD/issues? It's never just natural like that? So narrow faces should not exist? Because that's the holy grail of the long midface curse -- low FWHR (bad for men more than women). Anyone with a noticeably long midface tends to have the "goofy" look and lower FWHR than more compact-faced people.

I know the whole PLSI sphere of the internet agrees that certain features are all "genetic" because that's how you ended up looking as an adult and it's not easy to change the older you get exactly. The idea is that your face ended up how it was supposed to, and it did so because of genes primarily. This guy, Johnny Sanza, was a major ridiculed member of the site PUAHate (doesn't exist anymore) who was roasted and called ugly and still has this title today. He's known as a "legendary incel" because he's known for his melted/recessed look:

Interestingly he grew up with good posture, diet, and even played hockey a lot (family is pretty well off, I think). He says he was a good looking kid but apparently "turned ugly" when he was in his teens. He looks like he has a myriad of issues -- mostly his jaw and the fact his face looks melted. Is it genetic? Can't say. It poses a good argument because not everyone who grows up has these bad features/development, even on a case-to-case basis. At the same time I don't agree with the "it's all genetics" mindset, it's hard to argue when cases like this exist. Either way the guy above has basically given up in life last I heard because of his appearance.

I don't know about Johnny but David isn't considered attractive facially by most women I know. He never was considered a sex symbol and in fact was the goofy dork of the cast of Friends. Matt LeBlanc on the other hand had a very forward jaw and square face as was considered a hunk. Maybe the character of Ross endeared David to many female fans based on the show's plotline but tbh I don't know that David is considered aesthetic at all. He certainly hasn't been called even cute by anyone I know. But away from the subjective stuff...

His face looks like a product of extraction orthodontics if you ask me. He has very visible maxillary and mandibular recession from the side. His Mew indicator line would easily be above 50mm considering how far back his incisors are from his nose. He also has very pronounced submental folds. These too are common in orthodontics cases of extractions (it seems Vin Diesel has similar jaw development except his upper jaw doesn't seem to have had extractions). To your comment about his gonial angle, to me it does look like it is rather high and like his mandible is tucked into his face. 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3y582ArzQXYb4_jqjSOaoTNqc_-0lPpA7E93eXYoStH1CiXXk

David's profile reminds me of many people with apnea. Narrow upper arch, incisors very far from nose tip, small mandible. His chin projection is decent but I also think if he had extractions on the top and lower arch that this would help with chin development and projection since the teeth are further back.

Am I saying it is for sure? Probably not. All I know is he has classic long face that is seen in many mouthbreathers. Also I am older than most of you on this forum and actually was around to watch Friends. He certainly is a mouthbreather because his mouth hangs open a lot in the show. 

As far as JSanza is concerned, I can't comment since I don't know his story. I also know he is terrible at taking pics from most I have seen.  If I was as close to the camera as he always is in his shots I too would look severely melted. 

Well I agree that JSanza isn't "ugly ugly" but he looks unattractive still you could say. Also, I have watched pretty much every episode of Friends and do remember Schwimmer/Ross keeping his mouth open. Maybe you're right, but it still doesn't explain how some guys end up looking like God-tier models while growing up without knowledge of oral posture; not having good diet; etc., whereas others end up being below even typical looking or even full-on ugly -- like JSanza. 

The idea behind these forums and skull development is that everyone should -- in an ideal world -- at least be "average looking" or "decent" through correct bone development, formation, posture and whatnot -- but this is a longshot for some people still due to bad development, which could/could not be most-entirely genetic or otherwise. Makes you wonder if "proper development" has anything to do with good looks, or if it's just 90% genetics and whatever plastic surgery can do for people. I also don't think your looks are always 100% constant: people change.

 

EDIT: Also, how the hell does this thread have thousands of views? Linked from somewhere else?

The men/women who grow up good looking without knowledge of posture etc were probably breastfed for enough time for the breastfeeding to ingrain good oral and postural habits. My husband is like this, breastfed for 18 months, no idea or concern about any of the things we discuss, yet he swallows correctly, appears to have a fairly wide intermolar width, good posture with no effort and tongue on the roof of his mouth at rest. He even OMCs and has his whole life. Rarely do I see a maxilla like his except pictures on the internet/magazines of beautiful people. Probably not a surprise to say this, but he looked like a male model when he was younger. Yet his diet was pretty garbage and he grew up poor.

This is why I kind of mocked the guy who came here with the video about getting your kids to chew tough foods and coaching them to put their tongue on the roof of their mouth. Not a chance you'll get the tongue on the roof of the mouth just by asking a toddler. Maybe if you're lucky. And if they don't like the tough food you serve, good luck not getting it thrown all over the place, LOL. And what about infancy? If the mother can't breastfeed for whatever reason, you'd have better luck getting them in to therapy, using oral sensory tools and following guidelines like how Downs Syndrome children are helped to prevent mouthbreathing etc and getting their oral development on track and healthy. But otherwise it's breastfeeding that establishes these ingrained good habits in early life.

It's tough because not every woman wants to breastfeed, or can, for various reasons. You can give your children the gift of pre-puberty braces, which I got, and yes it will give you a good-looking face, but you won't necessarily have the ingrained habits to maintain that face...

I have my complaints about parenting trends like the so-called attachment parenting method, which seems so crazy to me I'm sure it's probably driven some to the loony bin. But at least these women are breastfeeding, even if their concerns are misplaced (their seemingly only concern is "attachment", and proper skull development doesn't tend to be a concern). They are the only type of parents I tend to see that breastfeed their child(ren), and I can tell they adopt that parenting style because of the way they hover over their kin and invent or seize every opportunity possible to coach them about their feelings, LOL. But whatever, they get it done.

Also I disagree about FWHR not being as important for women, a bad scoring on this for either sex indicates CFD and that is not good for everyone.

Well, that's the answer, I suppose. I better get sucking on more boobs so I look like a model then.

But I guess you're right about the FWHR in women too. It's just that men are normally preferred to have wider faces since this is more of a masculine/dimorphic kind of trait. Narrow faces just seem/are perceived to be weaker (maybe even in women too?). Women don't really need any of the same face traits men do when it comes to male aesthetics to look their best. With women a narrow face may not be as good but plenty of women pull off the narrow OR wide faces much better than most men can.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 13/06/2018 2:24 pm
Rockyp33 liked
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I'm sure fwhr for women is more a case of not looking narrow faced and like they have a big nose . Very narrow faced women like Sarah Jessica Parker aren't considered pinnacles of female aesthetics either. In fact I can't think of a woman that is considered attractive that has a low fwhr. Can you @Keengo?

Fwhr IMO isn't about dimorphism. What determines a male from female face is mostly lower third height and not so much width. 

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Posted : 13/06/2018 4:19 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@Keengo If you google something like "beautiful toddlers" and if you have the eyes to see it, you can note that in addition to the standard interesting traits like bright blue eyes etc, the toddlers appear to have the classic breastfed face largely characterised by a short midface with absence of that certain bottlefed/pacifier/thumbsucker/mouthbreathing appearance (generally manifesting as a long and narrow face with accompanied narrow palate). Good fwhr isn't masculine per se, it's simply an attractive trait and correlates with good oral function and posture.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 13/06/2018 6:17 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

Emma Stone is featured in the latest photoshop surgeon video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu4Wu1sY1tc ). This is a good example of what I mentioned in my first post: sometimes the "perfection mask" makes faces longer. The original image is on the right and the edited image is on the left. What do you think of this comparison? Doesn't the real image show "better" development with a shorter, more brachycephalic shape, sharper gonial angle, etc.? Yet, I feel like the edited image might be more attractive. To me, she looks more like Jennifer Lawrence in the edited image. Do you agree that the edited image is more attractive? If so, why do you think elongating some faces improves their appearance?

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Posted : 20/06/2018 4:00 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@Apollo

Shopped Emma has a longer middle third compared to her lower third. So the shopped version looks more neotenous due to the infantile lower third proportion. Feminine beauty is more about neoteny than it is about things like sharp gonial angles and short faces. From a dimorphic standpoint, women rarely have sharp gonial angles anyway due to the fact their mandible doesn't project as far and their ramus is shorter. 

Edit: I wonder if the male version of the photoshopped pics takes dimorphism into account 

Edit 2: It isn't necessarily the lengthening that made her more attractive but the proportions. However, if they tried to shorten her lower third while trying to maintain her total face length, she would look out of proportion to her eyes and forehead, and honestly ridiculous . So it isn't the lengthening by itself but the proportions taken into account 

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Posted : 20/06/2018 4:20 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

I wonder if the male version of the photoshopped pics takes dimorphism into account 

I assume the differences between the male and female masks take this dimorphism into account. All of the photos are edited to conform to the proportions of the respective male or female masks. To me the men often look worse after the changes whereas the women often look better. Here's an example of Dylan O'Brien whose face, like Emma Stone's, is lengthened by the mask proportions (original on the right edited on the left). I'm unsure if I like the before or after better in this case. Maybe the midface proportion is just too long in the masks, especially the male mask? I think it's pretty clear the masks for both genders are mesocephalic.

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Posted : 20/06/2018 5:18 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

One thing: mesocephalic and brachycephalic have to do with skull proportions and do not include the face. The term you are referring to is mesofacial and brachyfacial .

Anyway, as far as midfaces are concerned, I honestly think they don't even chane in either of the pics. That is if we are talking about interpupillary distance vs the distance from eyes to lips. In pics of either Dylan or Emma they seem to barely change. 

I also see for Dylan they made his face more dimorphically masculine. His lower third height increased. Also they rid him of his pug nose . I definitely like the after pic. They also fixed some issues like his eyes being too large and close together, as well as his forehead being too high.

So far these masks make sense to me. It seems they are taking a numerical approach to this in terms of proportions. Like with Dylan all of the changed were there to make him look more masculine. Shortening the forehead, making the eyes smaller, and making his lower third taller. Also the removal of his pug nose which is seldom seen as ideal. In his case he was too neotenized

 

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Posted : 20/06/2018 6:58 pm
Apollo liked
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

I feel  like breast feeding is an important reason for that happening, because if we learn how to swallow properly as a baby were going to keep doing it in most cases and vice versa. so even if you dont know to swallow correctly you do it without thinking about it.

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Posted : 20/06/2018 11:49 pm