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PEMF: "Second puberty" for adults?  

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Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Recently I got myself a PEMF device and noticed that its use eventually caused my nostrils to straighten out (I believe I had a deviated septum). After making this observation I wondered if this device was stimulating my cranial sutures somehow, and although I wasn't able to locate a study precisely looking at its effect on cranial sutures, there's an article here discussing NASA's study on PEMF and cell growth:

RESULTS The PEMF used in the study “caused accelerated growth rate and better organized morphology over controls”, and resulted in “greater cell viability” (85% vs. 65%). In the gene discovery array (chip technology that surveyed 10,000 human genes),the investigators found up-regulation of 150 genes associated with growth and cell restoration. T. Goodwin (personal communication) “PEMF shut down each dis-regulatory gene we studied.”

Source: NASA ON STIMULATING GROWTH AND REPAIR

Kind of like what Mike Mew was trying to accomplish with his ultrasound device, I believe.

If PEMF does indeed stimulate the cranial sutures, it's possible that this kind of gentle stimulation, coupled with mechanical stimulation (even just mewing) could become a viable alternative for adult expansion orthodontics (for adults that don't have issues requiring orthodontic intervention).

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

Quote
Posted : 25/02/2020 4:39 pm
Autokrator, Odys, Elwynn and 1 people liked
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

On the hormone production front, there are anecdotes such as this one indicating that stimulating the various glands and organs that produce our hormones could help to optimise their levels.

When I use my PEMF on my palate, I can immediately feel melatonin releasing.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/02/2020 12:16 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

This is fascinating.

Incidentally, I've been thinking a lot recently about how the body can be "triggered" to respond more definitively to the postural forces that mewing provides - because thus far, my results have been small - and the answer I frequently arrived at was "hormones". They're the primary component that is present during childhood and teenage years, which retreats in adulthood. It's hormones that inform the body to produce new bone at the sutures, relying on oral posture for the direction and degree of this growth. Without the presence of the right hormones, a good posture may improve the soft tissues and maybe even encourage some minor bone changes, but will ultimately be unlikely to lead to the sort of structural changes that we're looking for here. If dumb force were enough, then face-pulling would result in significant improvements, but clearly something is missing there (I believe that TGW made this point before). Mewing should therefore be coupled with some method of signaling to the body that deeper changes need to take place, and hormones seem to be that signal. That being said, I agree with the comment you made on another thread that we shouldn't mess with our hormones directly. Injections and other methods of direct administration can be unpredictable and dangerous.

When I use my PEMF on my palate, I can immediately feel melatonin releasing.

Can you elaborate on this? When you say melatonin, I'm imagining the sensation I feel when I become sleepy. Is this more or less what you mean?

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/02/2020 2:25 am
maxillary
Active Member

This is cool and all, but this does not directly "mimic" a child's growth, this device may even be better than any hormone available, like who knows? But in my personal opinion, I'd rather dive into this with hormones. Ideally, experiment with both. Although children haven't used such devices yet yielded fantastic and quick results.

I have already purchased GH peptides today with my saved money as HGH is too expensive to deal with currently. The only way if you want to genuinely achieve results that you envision is to take the risk and to be fair, these are merely peptides that I am talking about, it's not as if I'll be injecting insulin as well which is what risks ruining your body the most when paired with.

I don't know much about bone metabolism and general craniofacial growth so I'll have to get into this blindly which I hate, I wish I knew the specific details, the time it takes, everything. There is barely any research on something specific like GH induced craniofacial growth, the few studies available had experimented with deficient children which only makes sense why they'd get easy growth.

It's all or nothing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/02/2020 7:58 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@maxillary

I don't think it's an "all or nothing" situation. If the PEMF upregulates some growth hormones, then that may be sufficient for some structural improvements. At the very least, it sounds promising. So, why not try the device that seems much safer than ingesting hormones (besides money)? Should you decide to, you could always take hormones later on (which I don't recommend). Besides, if you use PEMF and ingest hormones at the same time, you're not going to know what ultimately resulted in changes. As you yourself admit, there's a lot that we don't know. In light of that, I would personally prefer to try the safer approach first, and put the more risky solutions on the back-burner.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/02/2020 2:31 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @maxillary

This is cool and all, but this does not directly "mimic" a child's growth, this device may even be better than any hormone available, like who knows? But in my personal opinion, I'd rather dive into this with hormones. Ideally, experiment with both. Although children haven't used such devices yet yielded fantastic and quick results.

I have already purchased GH peptides today with my saved money as HGH is too expensive to deal with currently. The only way if you want to genuinely achieve results that you envision is to take the risk and to be fair, these are merely peptides that I am talking about, it's not as if I'll be injecting insulin as well which is what risks ruining your body the most when paired with.

I don't know much about bone metabolism and general craniofacial growth so I'll have to get into this blindly which I hate, I wish I knew the specific details, the time it takes, everything. There is barely any research on something specific like GH induced craniofacial growth, the few studies available had experimented with deficient children which only makes sense why they'd get easy growth.

It's all or nothing.

It's all or nothing = Black and white thinking.

You should definitely research more, is this even real? You don't seem to know about even basic things like Acromegaly and how insulin injection used without a prescription runs the risk of death.

I know where you got your ideas from. All cults are born from a deficiency in the culture. This much I can get. But insinuating my thread offers "take a shower"-tier advice with your cute commentary is flat-out wrong and your reasoning (your admittedly unresearched ideas about exogenous hormone use) is ridiculous.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/02/2020 2:33 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@maxillary

I don't think it's an "all or nothing" situation. If the PEMF upregulates some growth hormones, then that may be sufficient for some structural improvements. At the very least, it sounds promising. So, why not try the device that seems much safer than ingesting hormones (besides money)? Should you decide to, you could always take hormones later on (which I don't recommend). Besides, if you use PEMF and ingest hormones at the same time, you're not going to know what ultimately resulted in changes. As you yourself admit, there's a lot that we don't know. In light of that, I would personally prefer to try the safer approach first, and put the more risky solutions on the back-burner.

Don't worry, he's probably going to just get scammed.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/02/2020 2:35 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

This is fascinating.

Incidentally, I've been thinking a lot recently about how the body can be "triggered" to respond more definitively to the postural forces that mewing provides - because thus far, my results have been small - and the answer I frequently arrived at was "hormones". They're the primary component that is present during childhood and teenage years, which retreats in adulthood. It's hormones that inform the body to produce new bone at the sutures, relying on oral posture for the direction and degree of this growth. Without the presence of the right hormones, a good posture may improve the soft tissues and maybe even encourage some minor bone changes, but will ultimately be unlikely to lead to the sort of structural changes that we're looking for here. If dumb force were enough, then face-pulling would result in significant improvements, but clearly something is missing there (I believe that TGW made this point before). Mewing should therefore be coupled with some method of signaling to the body that deeper changes need to take place, and hormones seem to be that signal. That being said, I agree with the comment you made on another thread that we shouldn't mess with our hormones directly. Injections and other methods of direct administration can be unpredictable and dangerous.

When I use my PEMF on my palate, I can immediately feel melatonin releasing.

Can you elaborate on this? When you say melatonin, I'm imagining the sensation I feel when I become sleepy. Is this more or less what you mean?

Yes, though there's probably a timing component too (I use it at night for this purpose). In case anyone reading doesn't know what it feels like when melatonin secretes, cut the lights one evening and just use candle-light at most: you should feel sleepier than the night before.

I don't even trust the stuff doctors prescribe.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/02/2020 2:43 pm
Elwynn liked
maxillary
Active Member

@greensmoothies

Posted by: @greensmoothies

You don't seem to know about even basic things like Acromegaly and how insulin injection used without a prescription runs the risk of death.

I don't get this comment. I never endorsed insulin injections as I even hinted how it is the worst thing you can inject when paired with GH, and about acromegaly, you're not implying that mere peptides can induce such disease, right?

Posted by: @greensmoothies

I know where you got your ideas from. All cults are born from a deficiency in the culture. This much I can get. But insinuating my thread offers "take a shower"-tier advice with your cute commentary is flat-out wrong and your reasoning (your admittedly unresearched ideas about exogenous hormone use) is ridiculous.

I am genuinely confused, my reply wasn't even meant to be taken personally and no, there is no "insinuating" going on... what are you even on about with cults? Bro you're overthinking this.

I do agree on how it is black & white and that it requires more research, but what research can you do? That was the main point, it is very difficult and pointless to go ahead and just research on craniofacial growth & growth hormone as there's barely any information in this field. I even mentioned this in my reply. I've already done my research specifically based on my peptides as I was interested long ago for different goals.

Besides that, on-topic, would this device be synergistic if you'd combine it with GH/IGF-1 secretagogues? Or would it be a waste? I am really willing to buy this thing anyway as I love experimenting and going all-in as I phrased myself, as it may save time and could open doors to many possibilities, I just thought it was too good to be true until I've seen one of your posts regarding on your progress with the pEMF device on the sonic thread, I also have uneven nostrils but for a different reason, more so due to an uneven maxilla (one arch higher than the other, potentially caused by mouthbreathing).

Look, I mean if the pricing isn't so absurd, I may as well invest in this, you'd figure hormones can only go so far, and injecting additional peptides wouldn't really make much difference if one would already be injecting high amounts, at least, I'd assume.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2020 1:42 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies

Have you bought this device with the explicit intent to treat your CFD, or have you bought it for something else and just realized that it benefited mewing later on?

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2020 4:49 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @maxillary

@greensmoothies

Posted by: @greensmoothies

You don't seem to know about even basic things like Acromegaly and how insulin injection used without a prescription runs the risk of death.

I don't get this comment. I never endorsed insulin injections as I even hinted how it is the worst thing you can inject when paired with GH, and about acromegaly, you're not implying that mere peptides can induce such disease, right?

Posted by: @greensmoothies

I know where you got your ideas from. All cults are born from a deficiency in the culture. This much I can get. But insinuating my thread offers "take a shower"-tier advice with your cute commentary is flat-out wrong and your reasoning (your admittedly unresearched ideas about exogenous hormone use) is ridiculous.

I am genuinely confused, my reply wasn't even meant to be taken personally and no, there is no "insinuating" going on... what are you even on about with cults? Bro you're overthinking this.

I do agree on how it is black & white and that it requires more research, but what research can you do? That was the main point, it is very difficult and pointless to go ahead and just research on craniofacial growth & growth hormone as there's barely any information in this field. I even mentioned this in my reply. I've already done my research specifically based on my peptides as I was interested long ago for different goals.

Besides that, on-topic, would this device be synergistic if you'd combine it with GH/IGF-1 secretagogues? Or would it be a waste? I am really willing to buy this thing anyway as I love experimenting and going all-in as I phrased myself, as it may save time and could open doors to many possibilities, I just thought it was too good to be true until I've seen one of your posts regarding on your progress with the pEMF device on the sonic thread, I also have uneven nostrils but for a different reason, more so due to an uneven maxilla (one arch higher than the other, potentially caused by mouthbreathing).

Look, I mean if the pricing isn't so absurd, I may as well invest in this, you'd figure hormones can only go so far, and injecting additional peptides wouldn't really make much difference if one would already be injecting high amounts, at least, I'd assume.

I'm genuinely confused why you're posting about something unrelated to the topic at hand (using peptides, injecting hormones). You do you, I doubt it would work toward stimulating the cranial sutures though. Would the two modalities synergise, dude your guess is as good as mine.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2020 7:01 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@greensmoothies

Have you bought this device with the explicit intent to treat your CFD, or have you bought it for something else and just realized that it benefited mewing later on?

I got it for another reason and then noticed this effect after using it for some time.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2020 7:06 pm
Elwynn liked
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Found what seems like a similar modality called "Cranial Suture Release Therapy" using DC microcurrent to help treat traumatic brain injury (TBI) and other issues: http://www.abinetwork.ca/uploads/File/ABI_Conference_2016/2016_Presentations/C__Armstrong_CONCUSSION_Oct_19_2016-FINAL.pdf

This is interesting because when I used thumb pulling to loosen the mid-face sutures manually, my sleep went from 4 hours unrested with no dreams, to 7-8 hours feeling rested with a dream that can sometimes be recalled. This effect, along with my ears noticeably growing, suggests to me an increase in growth hormone.

TBI can cause growth hormone deficiency. It's hard for me to say if growth hormone is being released in increased amounts using the pEMF, but to feel the melatonin releasing immediately after using it at night on my palate suggests the pituitary is being stimulated.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2020 8:02 pm
TGW and Apollo liked
ava
 ava
Active Member
Posted by: @maxillary

This is cool and all, but this does not directly "mimic" a child's growth, this device may even be better than any hormone available, like who knows? But in my personal opinion, I'd rather dive into this with hormones. Ideally, experiment with both. Although children haven't used such devices yet yielded fantastic and quick results.

I have already purchased GH peptides today with my saved money as HGH is too expensive to deal with currently. The only way if you want to genuinely achieve results that you envision is to take the risk and to be fair, these are merely peptides that I am talking about, it's not as if I'll be injecting insulin as well which is what risks ruining your body the most when paired with.

I don't know much about bone metabolism and general craniofacial growth so I'll have to get into this blindly which I hate, I wish I knew the specific details, the time it takes, everything. There is barely any research on something specific like GH induced craniofacial growth, the few studies available had experimented with deficient children which only makes sense why they'd get easy growth.

It's all or nothing.

GH peptides aren't going to be super useful if you're not taking the bone remodelling process in to account.

(Speaking as someone going through second puberty due to gender transition, I have a hormone profile that is a bit more controllable than most).

I've only really focussed on the female stuff due to my goals...but as I understand it:

Increased progesterone levels results in increased bone FORMATION.

Increased (o)estrogen levels result in bone re-absorption REDUCTION.

I think testosterone is like (0)estrogen in that in probably reduces re-absorption...either directly or indirectly via conversion to E.

Bottom line, we're malleable before puberty because of the absence of sex hormones; want the same environment? you need to take your hormone profile back to basics. i.e. nuke your sex hormones....at least while trying to fix your bones.

 

High P + minimal E + minimal T = Maximised bone remodelling.

 

Some anecdotal stuff: I was mewing for years before I started transitioning medically. My palatinus tori only developed AFTER I started (o)estrogen...and that fits with what I've said above. I now have a lot less muscle than I used to, but am actually quite a bit heavier and it's not because I'm super obese now...it's because my skeleton is dense due to the E.

A.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/03/2020 9:08 am
maxillary liked
maxillary
Active Member

@ava

That is very interesting and helped me further understood the works of bone remodeling, etc.. I would have thought that bone remodeling in of itself would not be enough to displace our maxilla in its ideal position.

I thought literal skull growth would be needed to create great changes, and I theorized that with the efforts of mewing and everything else, it would further assist guiding the added synthetic growth properly, just like adolescents in a sense with all that growing happening, even with their sex hormones rising as well, you would imagine progress being easy, and my experience further validated that, as I had achieved drastic results when I was an early adolescent, by merely placing the tongue on the palate with no effort nor pressure applied, it had driven my maxilla upwards within a matter of a few weeks. It was incredibly mindboggling and infuriating to look back. It had occurred in such a short span with it never happening again, I have no idea why as I was still growing, but I guess just not as much afterward, don't get me wrong, some forward growth was brought about, but no holy "upswinging". On that day, I was afraid that saint Mew had run out of his miraculous blessings.

Posted by: @ava

Bottom line, we're malleable before puberty because of the absence of sex hormones; want the same environment? you need to take your hormone profile back to basics. i.e. nuke your sex hormones....at least while trying to fix your bones.

 

High P + minimal E + minimal T = Maximised bone remodelling.

Minimal E, you say? That makes a lot of sense actually, and I have thought of this earlier and discussed this with someone else as well. I had already ordered a pack of Aromasin for the sake of delaying my growth plates and should soon be arrived. So essentially, for more malleable bones, we must make our bones less "thick" and more "soft" in a sense to make them "flexible"? Because that's what could result in a significant reduction of estrogen, with an increased chance of fractures, we may also have an easier time dealing with our facial bones?

Fascinating, although I wonder if testosterone would also have a major role in that regard, I'd have to do some research in that aspect.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/03/2020 11:12 am
maxillary
Active Member

Here are some studies related to this in which I found interesting:

"Stimulation of bone formation by direct electrical current in an orthopedically expanded suture rat" https://synapse.koreamed.org/search.php?where=aview&id=10.4041/kjod.2010.40.2.106&code=0123KJOD&vmode=PUBREADER#!po=83.3333  

"Effect of Pulsed Electromagnetic Field on Mandibular Fracture Healing: A Randomized Control Trial, (RCT)" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331467754_Effect_of_Pulsed_Electromagnetic_Field_on_Mandibular_Fracture_Healing_A_Randomized_Control_Trial_RCT

"Pulsed Electromagnetic Fields Stimulate Bone Formation in Midpalatal Suture after Rapid Maxillary Expansion" https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/dentalmedres1981/15/2/15_105/_article/-char/ja/

"Autoradiographic study of the effects of pulsed electromagnetic fields on bone and cartilage growth in juvenile rats" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1834-7819.2007.tb00503.x

I've heard this statement once that mewing doesn't provide enough force to induce more bone remodeling. Which PEMF can help in, is this true?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/03/2020 12:56 pm
TGW liked
ava
 ava
Active Member
Posted by: @maxillary

I've heard this statement once that mewing doesn't provide enough force to induce more bone remodeling. Which PEMF can help in, is this true?

Your bone never stops remodelling. The only thing that changes is the rate at which it does it and the difference between childhood and adulthood in that regard is just the rate of remodelling and the bias level. By bias level I mean...there's the process of continual damage (micro fractures) that get re-absorbed at a certain rate, and theres the process of continual formation that creates new bone to replace it, but nothing says that that process will naturally remain in complete equilibrium as we age.

Quite the contrary...the reason why our bones seem to stop growing or remodelling is just because it's biased towards one more than the other and actually, that's a desirable trait once we reach our desired goals, which is what adulthood is supposed to be. So whatever our hormone levels in early adulthood are, they exist to maintain the result we've ended up with, and certainly aren't going to enable particularly good remodelling.

BTW, I don't actually know any of this, I'm just theorising here...but let's follow through with this....specifically let's talk about something Mew gets wrong. Well, not completely wrong, but he misses the key point IMO. He says that the fact that facial dystrophy can occur in adults means that our bones are still capable of remodelling well in to adulthood. I actually think he's right on this, but he never gets in to the why of it all. When it comes to sick people there are too many different variations, but I think we can all agree that old people suffer from melting faces and osteoporosis too.

Osteoporosis affects old women as their hormones get out of whack. The falling (o)estrogen levels mean that their re-aborption rate goes up, and I would imagine that the less efficient body of an ageing person probably isn't forming new bone quite as well as it used to, so that leads to bone integrity issues. The treatment for osteoporosis for those women? Most often is combined (O)E + P transdermal patches. If what I'm saying is right, then that will increase their formation through the P, and reduce the rate of re-absorption through the (O)E, leading to a stable skeleton again. Obviously it works, otherwise GPs wouldn't prescribe it, but of course my explanation could be too simplistic.

Melting faces probably have more contributing factors, but is basically the same thing. Old people are a bit tired of standing up straight and that bad posture combined with lower levels of their sex hormones leads to more re-absorption and an ageing body capable of less formation, gets us the melting.

I don't know if older men suffer from the same rates of osteoporosis as older women do...but I suspect the rates are much lower because men's T doesn't fall off a cliff generally, where as it's much more extreme for women.

 

So again, I think to get an ideal environment for remodelling, we want high P and low E and low T....but only until we get to the results we want, at which point, we want our E/T/P to go back to normal adult levels to stabilise the results.

Unfortunately I'm not really in a position to experiment with this all that much, as I'm under medical supervision when it comes to my meds. We actually have a hormone shortage in this country (UK) at the moment, so I recently had to ration my E meds. It wasn't fun...mainly because it's the only thing I take and it serves the dual purpose of feminising and keeping my T levels low. I ended up having to take half doses to prolong the supply, and even at those half levels, my male traits started coming back pretty quickly so I can't back those off to improve bone remodelling without some other plan in place unfortunately.

My current thoughts are that P also reduces T, so I might be able to switch from my E only regimen to a P only regimen and get the desired results that will achieve both things I want to achieve, but if I attempt that, I'm going to have to wait until my GP let's me go longer between blood tests, because I'm going to have to do it between checks and will have to go to the P extreme and back again in time for my next test. Obviously there are risks with that, specifically, I'll be intentionally causing osteoporosis effectively, so it's going to be a bit dangerous. I might just try reducing E but not eliminating it completely, and increasing P and see if that improves things. If it does, then maybe I can try to half my E dose again, and double my P dose, and so on.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/03/2020 6:00 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

I gotta say that as a man, the prospect of lowering testosterone makes me concerned. We know that low T levels in men correlate with depression and many physical conditions undesirable to those who aren't attempting to transition. Anyway, that's just a personal note. I'm ultimately glad that the issue of hormones and other potential methods of "signaling" to the body are being discussed.

@ava

Bottom line, we're malleable before puberty because of the absence of sex hormones; want the same environment? you need to take your hormone profile back to basics. i.e. nuke your sex hormones....at least while trying to fix your bones.

I understand your point, but isn't it also the presence of hormones that accounts for growth, and in turn good facial development during the formative years? Males grow taller on average, largely because they get exposed to testosterone during puberty, when their growth plates are still open. I'm not very informed about this, but I'd expect testosterone to also have some effect on the growth of skull bones in puberty. I see the issues of remodeling and growth as separate, but overlapping, and I believe that what we're after is both, though probably more of the latter (growth at the sutures).

Here's a question, on a related note: people who transition from female to male see substantial changes in the soft-tissue due to hormone treatment; but do they also observe any changes in the size, density, or shape of their skull bones thanks to testosterone administration?

Some anecdotal stuff: I was mewing for years before I started transitioning medically. My palatinus tori only developed AFTER I started (o)estrogen

Assuming that the torus developed as a result of increased impact of mewing on your bones due to higher estrogen levels, do you think that there is an issue with your mewing technique? I mean, I'd assume that even if bones are rendered more malleable, a good posture shouldn't cause such defects. I'm legitimately curious.

@maxillary

I thought literal skull growth would be needed to create great changes.

Couldn't it be both, bone remodeling and bone growth that are necessary?

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/03/2020 10:28 pm
maxillary
Active Member

@elwynn

Posted by: @elwynn

Couldn't it be both, bone remodeling and bone growth that are necessary?

Sure, but so far, bone remodeling alone hasn't provided me much with what bone growth has. Although ideally, yes, having both to a great extent would be nice.

Although I wonder if bone growth and bone metabolism are heavily correlated, I'm not too informed in this...

Posted by: @elwynn

Males grow taller on average, largely because they get exposed to testosterone during puberty, when their growth plates are still open.

It's not testosterone that majorly contributes to growth in adolescents, it's GH/IGF-1.

The reason why girls are shorter is mainly because of estrogen, high estrogen = early fusion of growth plates. High testosterone also gets to convert to estrogen. Although T alone also contributes to fusing growth plates, I just know nowhere near as much as estrogen.

@ava

Posted by: @ava

might just try reducing E but not eliminating it completely, and increasing P and see if that improves things. If it does, then maybe I can try to half my E dose again, and double my P dose, and so on.

I don't see why eliminating E completely would benefit you further, just reduce it significantly and it'll be more than enough, the side effects for some will be rough.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/03/2020 3:40 am
ava
 ava
Active Member
Posted by: @elwynn

I gotta say that as a man, the prospect of lowering testosterone makes me concerned. We know that low T levels in men correlate with depression and many physical conditions undesirable to those who aren't attempting to transition.

Oh, I'm definitely not suggesting people try this at home. It's just where I happen to be with this subject, and I was never sufficiently attached to my old form to let it get in the way of fixing myself. I transitioned because I figured it might be a better fit socially, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have half an eye on the benefits of being able to control my hormonal profile, which made the whole endeavour a much easier choice for me (as it turns out, it was the right choice anyway, but I was open to it failing and taking whatever gains I'd achieved up to that point and undoing everything).

Posted by: @elwynn

Here's a question, on a related note: people who transition from female to male see substantial changes in the soft-tissue due to hormone treatment; but do they also observe any changes in the size, density, or shape of their skull bones thanks to testosterone administration?

That's a good question and the truth is I don't know, but I would think so, but probably not for the reason you'd think.

In terms of bone remodelling E & T serve the same purpose. So if someone who was born with a uterus decides to block the E and replace it with a constant supply of T, then you'd think they'd still have the same bone remodelling capability...or at least a constant factor of difference at any rate (because there's no guarantee that E & T have the same degree of effectiveness in reducing bone re-absorption). However, the problem with this, and it's a problem in MtF transitions too, is that the female supply of E over the month isn't normally constant. So, the thing that would change their bones to being "chunkier", is actually not the T vs E, but the constant supply of T vs the variable supply of E.

The above is the reason that even in MtF transitions, the constant levels of E are a problem. Some MtFs experiment with adding P to their E regimens because they want to improve their breast development (which is a contentious subject within the medical and trans community), but inevitably they get a surprise gift of acromalgy , because the P increases formation and the high levels of E prevent re-absoption (that's a path I've walked, and I've got 36DDs to show for it, which is unusual compared to most MtF ladies, but the downside is my dense, heavy skeleton and pronounced brow...luckily my poor-posture developed skull has left me with enough extra soft tissue to hide the chunky bones quite well).

Here's a graph of a normal menstrual cycle if you're interested, and it's fairly obvious that E peaks (that is, more bone is kept), and then once it drops (so more bone is re-absorbed), P rises up to it's peak (increased formation), and the cycle continues. That's why menopause results in osteoporosis. The menstrual cycle is a finely tuned thing it turns out.

inside_Estrogen_graph_01_2x.png

BTW, while we're talking about masculine faces vs feminine faces, it's also worth noting that posture dominates hormones every time (it just so happens that little girls get chastised for poor posture more than little boys, leading to the kind of habit based bias in development that we associate with femininity, but that's an incorrect association), but I'm probably preaching to the choir on this point, so I'll leave that there.

Posted by: @elwynn

Assuming that the torus developed as a result of increased impact of mewing on your bones due to higher estrogen levels, do you think that there is an issue with your mewing technique? I mean, I'd assume that even if bones are rendered more malleable, a good posture shouldn't cause such defects. I'm legitimately curious.

I think the E increased the amount of bone that has been kept, but I can't say whether technique is involved or not.

I undoubtedly mewed incorrectly for a long time...this I'm sure of. These days I'm trying to get my tongue behind the torus, and up in to my "barely there" soft palate.

I'm not sure, but think the transverse palatine suture is where my torus is, and the horizontal bone behind it isn't there, because it's sloping up in to my skull, due to poor posture. I think the goal is to apply forward/up force to the torus in an effort to get both sections of bone on to the same plane is geometrical terms (the torus is the result of the bone in front of the transverse palatine suture meeting with the inclined bone from behind the transverse palatine suture).

In other words, the grey bit in the following image:

is sloping up, and so it feels like the transverse palatine suture is where my soft palate starts, but its really not the case. It's just an errant fold caused by incorrect tongue posture.

A.

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Posted : 02/03/2020 2:28 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Anyway... my thoughts re: HRT - Maybe in an ideal world, things would work this way:

Step 1. Take hormone
Step 2. ...
Step 3. Profit!

Unfortunately things aren't that simple. There are timing and environmental considerations, the unintended effects...

Raise one level, another one raises along with it, then you might need to block that elevation somehow. Instead you can first try getting to the root causes.

As a personal example, I was taking bittermelon juice to improve my insulin resistance, then I realised Leptin elevates relative to Insulin, and Leptin is partly controlled by light. Improvement to my light exposure has eliminated my symptoms of insulin resistance without use of the bittermelon juice. Weight loss from improved sleep and light exposure further improved the leptin and insulin resistance. Get to the root causes. We are beings of light and our creator designed us intelligently.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 02/03/2020 6:16 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

And back on topic (hopefully) another interesting effect I've noticed with the pEMF use is vitamins getting to places they weren't getting before. My eyelashes grew, though I have avoided using the pEMF directly on my eyes. I suspect that increased blood flow around the area has permitted what seems to be this increased vitamin assimilation. The modulating effect of pEMF upon nitric oxide is interesting and exhibits pain-reducing effects, which has been quite helpful for my husband.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 02/03/2020 6:17 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @maxillary

Here are some studies related to this in which I found interesting:

"Stimulation of bone formation by direct electrical current in an orthopedically expanded suture rat" https://synapse.koreamed.org/search.php?where=aview&id=10.4041/kjod.2010.40.2.106&code=0123KJOD&vmode=PUBREADER#!po=83.3333  

"Effect of Pulsed Electromagnetic Field on Mandibular Fracture Healing: A Randomized Control Trial, (RCT)" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331467754_Effect_of_Pulsed_Electromagnetic_Field_on_Mandibular_Fracture_Healing_A_Randomized_Control_Trial_RCT

"Pulsed Electromagnetic Fields Stimulate Bone Formation in Midpalatal Suture after Rapid Maxillary Expansion" https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/dentalmedres1981/15/2/15_105/_article/-char/ja/

"Autoradiographic study of the effects of pulsed electromagnetic fields on bone and cartilage growth in juvenile rats" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1834-7819.2007.tb00503.x

I've heard this statement once that mewing doesn't provide enough force to induce more bone remodeling. Which PEMF can help in, is this true?

Thanks for linking those.

I suspect that adults need some method of stimulating the sutures, plus traction, plus mewing. Other helpful modalities include increasing blood flow in the skull and improving lymphatic drainage, which moving bones to a more ideal position and pEMF can help with.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 02/03/2020 6:20 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@greensmoothies

What do you mean by traction? 

Also, what health benefits have you noticed from improved lymphatic drainage? 

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Posted : 02/03/2020 6:27 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @robbie343

@greensmoothies

What do you mean by traction? 

Also, what health benefits have you noticed from improved lymphatic drainage? 

Using some kind of protraction face mask (eg: like this one), most likely. I did it with my thumbs, but I only read one other account of someone else accomplishing this, so others might not have success with that method and may be better served with more traditional approaches from dentistry. I've heard anywhere from 12-22 hours daily use, but I've also heard as little as 30 minutes with Plato's facemask method.

re: lymphatic drainage, this helps eliminate wastes efficiently, otherwise they can accumulate in the tissues.

Here's some images showing the nodes on the head and neck.

ETA: oh and re: benefits I've noticed from the improved lymph drainage, I had osteopathy during which a maneuver was done to release wastes from my brain. Turned out my lymph nodes on my neck became overburdened and developed some tenacious pimples in the neck area. This is despite doing lymph drainage massage on my head and neck day and night. The nodes can become calcified and ultrasound or pEMF can be used to help make the fluids in the areas used more liquid and help things get flowing again.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 02/03/2020 6:43 pm
Robbie343 liked
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@maxillary

So you've got me thinking about peptides, possibly repurchasing my GHK-cu serum, not to use on my skin only this time, but to hopefully help a wound heal on my jawbone (which is why I got the pEMF in the first place). I think adding DMSO should help it reach the bone. Problem is... iirc this peptide is blue so it would probably stain my teeth blue and for who knows how long. So then there's this other peptide which doesn't appear to have colour to it, but not as many studies behind it for my intents and purposes.

Out of curiosity, were you intending to use peptide(s) at the cranial sutures? Is that what you meant by synergy between the two? That would be an interesting experiment, but I wonder if delivery of a peptide in a DMSO vehicle is enough to stimulate the sutures, or if it's more like something that needs to be used in conjunction with pEMF or some other method of stimulating the sutures...

But I think there's potentially a big issue with this approach and that's the possibility of building bone that's way too soft. DMSO will lay down bone where it can, but the peptide and pEMF might not be enough to harden that bone up. I have some experience with building up bone on my maxilla and sharing this story may help us further understand a potential negative outcome. I was involved in an accident and it destroyed a premolar tooth. The extraction damaged a nerve and I eventually discovered that use of DMSO brought it temporarily back to life. I was mixing a 3 part DMSO to 1 part aloe vera solution applied to the extraction site (after it had healed over) and to my surprise, I regrew a significant amount of lost bone, to the point where I'm so glad I didn't get a bone graft. However, this bone that was laid down was initially quite spongy. Using the pEMF did substantially improve the strength of the new bone and I suspect there will be further benefits from tongue push-ups (same idea behind weight lifting increasing bone density). But I'm holding off on experimenting with that for now; I like to try and control my experiments so I can be more assured of what is a result of what.

Now based on what I've experienced, it's quite possible bone that may be laid down at the sutures with this approach will not be strong enough for the skull and this could be quite a disastrous result indeed. Would a peptide like GHK-cu and a high calorie diet, perhaps certain supplements and practices, help enough with promoting bone density? I'm thinking failure here could be quite bad, perhaps mimicking Ehlers–Danlos syndrome with respect to how the cranial sutures might behave.

A few studies which mention bone signalling pathways, in case there's interest:

 

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 03/03/2020 3:37 pm
maxillary
Active Member
Posted by: @greensmoothies

Out of curiosity, were you intending to use peptide(s) at the cranial sutures? Is that what you meant by synergy between the two?

Haha no no, GH peptide substances from what I know, are subq injected. I was referring to the very high levels of IGF-1 that are fluctuating in your bloodstream as a result of injections, whether if they'd have a synergistic effect with the pEMF device as both have similar bone-related benefits. And if it'd further aid in bone growth. (I'd assume yes)

Posted by: @greensmoothie

Would a peptide like GHK-cu and a high calorie diet, perhaps certain supplements and practices, help enough with promoting bone density?

To be honest, I don't know much about other peptides besides ones that secrete GH and/or IGF-1. Although I believe GHK-cu is meant for anti-aging purposes and general healing. What I'm injecting will skyrocket your IGF-1, which will directly and positively impact your bone density, which I believe also helps in bone malleability simply because of accelerated bone metabolism, although I still have not yet fully concluded whether if those 2 factors are hugely correlated or not.

GH peptides can be a hassle to deal with, having to inject 6 times a day, you might not find it ideal at all. Although it is more cost-effective than both pharma & generic HGH.
A study I found going over synthetic growth hormone-releasing peptides: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5392015/
I have no idea what could be the outcome, zilch ideas, it is experimental. I'll have to give in time to truly see whether if the theories are to be confirmed as something legit. Approximately 3-6 months.

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Posted : 04/03/2020 5:28 am