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Palate Expansion Update #1  

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TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

https://the-great-work.org/adult-palate-expansion-progress/

Let me know if you have any questions. This is describing 4mm of expansion measured by the expander, coupled with expansion in the year prior to approximately 6-7mm of increased intermolar width with virtually no tipping or tooth movement. As you can see, I've "modified" my palate expander. I will be making a separate post about how and why I did this modification soon. 

Feel free to point out any mistakes you might see in the post. I'm awful at proofreading my own writing. 

I hope this post will encourage others to share their experiences freely as well!

 

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Posted : 10/02/2018 1:58 pm
Sclera, Gregory and Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member

Thanks TGW! I was especially encouraged to read about the changes you have observed in energy, facial symmetry, nose alignment, under-eye circles, and mentality. I would be thrilled to achieve any one of these improvements. When you record your current intermolar width as 48mm in the article, I take it you are measuring between the buccal cusps of your first molars? I've still been measuring between the lingual sides, as we discussed in this thread (  https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/whats-your-intermolar-width/ ). Of course it doesn't matter as long as we are internally consistent to monitor progress. I'm just curious to get perspective what your goal is when you estimate another 10mm of expansion for a final intermolar width of about 58mm.

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Posted : 10/02/2018 4:26 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

A few more questions... Have you seen any separation between your central incisors? Do you think removing the acrylic that would push the canines and incisors apart helped prevent the gap between your front teeth? Has your mandibular arc kept up with the expansion of your maxillary arc?

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Posted : 10/02/2018 5:25 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

How does the process of getting a dental impression actually work? With that, how and where do you get an expander?

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Posted : 10/02/2018 5:48 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

Great write up.

My first question is about the measurement you made in order to determine your intermolar width. All of the professionals I have visited so far use the nearest two points of the first molars to get this distance. Check the red lines I drew on this photo:

I'm pretty sure this is what Mew uses as well, which is why he says that most adults are in the low to mid 30's, and that they really should be in the low 40's. Maybe we should decide on a standard that we want to use for this forum. I think we should use whatever Mew uses.

My next question is when did you decide it was time to turn the expander; did you just wait for it to feel loose and then turn until it was snug again or did you follow a schedule?

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Posted : 10/02/2018 6:55 pm
Gregory liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Allixa

Great write up.

My first question is about the measurement you made in order to determine your intermolar width. All of the professionals I have visited so far use the nearest two points of the first molars to get this distance. Check the red lines I drew on this photo:

I'm pretty sure this is what Mew uses as well, which is why he says that most adults are in the low to mid 30's, and that they really should be in the low 40's. Maybe we should decide on a standard that we want to use for this forum. I think we should use whatever Mew uses.

My next question is when did you decide it was time to turn the expander; did you just wait for it to feel loose and then turn until it was snug again or did you follow a schedule?

This is the new standard I'll be using then. I've updated the article to reflect it. Here's a pic of my impressions before expansion

 

 
I was sitting at 35mm pretty much on the dot prior to measurable expansion. Estimating with a measuring tape in my mouth and the expansion shown on the device, I'm now 40mm +/- 1mm. 
 
I only turned the expander when it felt loose again, and this happened very sporadically. Sometimes in two days it was ready to go, sometimes it took up to a week for everything to adjust enough for the expander to lose tightness! 
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Posted : 11/02/2018 8:18 am
Apollo liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Apollo

A few more questions... Have you seen any separation between your central incisors? Do you think removing the acrylic that would push the canines and incisors apart helped prevent the gap between your front teeth? Has your mandibular arc kept up with the expansion of your maxillary arc?

Yes, I have had separation at the incisors. Since my rate of expansion is so slow, it's only noticeable by me. My upper teeth are crowded (see dental impression above), so what actually happens is that I can see a gap at the base of the incisors, but their tips are pushed together. The gap appears and goes away every few days, as if there's an alternating of my palatal suture opening and the teeth moving to full the newly created gaps. 

I removed the front acrylic because I think it was preventing my front arc from expanding like it wanted to. I'll make more detailed forum post on what was going on there. Remind me if I forget!

My mandible is where I can actually feel the pressure of most of the changes. My lower teeth have been giving me the "we're moving" sensitivity more than the uppers. I completely forgot to mention in the article that my lower wisdom teeth are erupting! They're jammed slightly, but they seem to be gaining more and more space and uprighting themselves. I had a slight upper crossbite, uppers inside of lowers, before starting any of this. That crossbite is still there exactly the same, so the expansion seems to have been 1:1

 

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Posted : 11/02/2018 8:33 am
Apollo liked
lagi
 lagi
New Member

TGW do you wear spectacles?

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Posted : 12/02/2018 4:14 am
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: TGW
I only turned the expander when it felt loose again, and this happened very sporadically. Sometimes in two days it was ready to go, sometimes it took up to a week for everything to adjust enough for the expander to lose tightness! 

 My mandible is where I can actually feel the pressure of most of the changes. My lower teeth have been giving me the "we're moving" sensitivity more than the uppers. I completely forgot to mention in the article that my lower wisdom teeth are erupting! They're jammed slightly, but they seem to be gaining more and more space and uprighting themselves. I had a slight upper crossbite, uppers inside of lowers, before starting any of this. That crossbite is still there exactly the same, so the expansion seems to have been 1:1

Only turning the expander when it feels loose seems like the ideal way to do things. The fact that you haven't gotten any tipping is a good sign of that. I'll try using this method myself.

As far as the mandible goes I mentioned this in another thread but I think the reason the lower teeth get sore is because since there is no suture for the lower arch, the teeth themselves have to move in order to keep up with the expanding upper arch, which leads to that feeling of dental soreness that people associate with braces and teeth movement.

That said, I am surprised that your crossbite has not resolved. I would have thought that expansion would be the ideal way to fix a crossbite. I have a thought about that. Perhaps doing a bunch of tough chewing while expanding forces the teeth to stay in the configuration that they are already in, instead of letting the uppers and lowers change in relationship to one another? I think chewing makes the upper teeth go inwards, and the lower teeth go outwards just based on regular jaw motions which could keep a crossbite from resolving even with expansion. I'll have to experiment with it myself because I have a slight crossbite that I want to fix too.

 

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Posted : 12/02/2018 5:29 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

Posted by: TGW

I removed the front acrylic because I think it was preventing my front arc from expanding like it wanted to. I'll make more detailed forum post on what was going on there. Remind me if I forget

@admin, when you have time, could you elaborate on your decision to remove the anterior section of the acrylic from your expander? So far I've only expanded 3/4mm, but I'll probably be making some modifications to my expander soon. I already adjusted my labial bow. I have the basic "active plate" rather than the y-plate like yours. The slight crowding of my upper central incisors is almost gone and I'm considering filing off the indentations in the acrylic between my six front teeth to allow those teeth more freedom to align themselves (hoping to minimize the development of a midline diastema), but I think I will preserve most of the acrylic behind my front teeth to maintain my surface area for extra-oral traction. I can already feel that I am going to need to file down some of the acrylic against the top of my palate around my torus palatinus. 

 

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Posted : 06/03/2018 9:49 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

@admin, I am interested in the post about expander modification as well.

Also I can't be sure but based on the metal piece in the middle of the expander, it doesn't look like a y-plate device. It might have been the regular active plate device that was cut to only engage the back teeth. Not positive though.

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Posted : 07/03/2018 11:26 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Did a doctor prescribe you expander? Which ortho did you visit?  Where you undergoing regular checkups or all of this is your initiative only? Did you order expander online?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 14/03/2018 9:10 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

Posted by: TGW

I removed the front acrylic because I think it was preventing my front arc from expanding like it wanted to. I'll make more detailed forum post on what was going on there. Remind me if I forget!

I suspect that TGW decided to removed the anterior portion of his expander at least in part because of the crowding between his left lateral incisor and canine (seen in the picture of his dental cast). Without the acrylic holding them in place the front teeth would be freer to realign. I don't have as much of a crowding issue. I've now expanded 2mm and I want to prevent my central incisors from separating any farther. I've smoothed off the edges and the indentations between the teeth on the front of my expander but I haven't yet removed the whole section like TGW did. The biobloc expanders I have seen in Dr. Mew's videos have wires between the lateral incisors and the canines that can be adjusted to help keep the front four teeth together. I can't think of any way to add a similar check on the separation of the front teeth to my basic expander. Maybe I should do what TGW did and remove the area behind the front teeth. Let me know what you think!

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Posted : 18/03/2018 11:04 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

@apollo,

By modifying your expander in that way you would basically be turning it into a y-plate device yeah? I don't think that's such a bad idea, but since it's an irreversible change I'll just say that you should be careful while doing it and to only do it if you are 100% sure it's the best choice.

In my opinion the y-plate device is superior for people seeking simply to expand and who don't have front crowding to resolve, and I think I've posted as much some time ago in another thread. The active plate device seems specifically designed to force the front teeth apart in order to make room, and I think it's usually used for people who have massive crowding up front or teeth that need to erupt that are stuck up in the gums. With the y-plate device as long as you only use the back screw it seems like it will just simply expand the palate while leaving the front teeth alone as much as possible, although @progress stated that due to the way the suture works, a diastema still might appear.

With the y-plate device there is also a good chance of finding a way to keep the teeth together through modifications because there is a piece of acrylic that sits in the same position behind the front teeth at all times. But with your device you have to remove that piece in order to get the same functionality so I can't think of a way to wrap something around the teeth to keep them together. I'd say that if you can't think of anything to just continue with the expansion and see if the diastema (if one manifests) closes back up by itself over time.

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Posted : 20/03/2018 4:38 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa

@apollo,

By modifying your expander in that way you would basically be turning it into a y-plate device yeah? I don't think that's such a bad idea, but since it's an irreversible change I'll just say that you should be careful while doing it and to only do it if you are 100% sure it's the best choice.

In my opinion the y-plate device is superior for people seeking simply to expand and who don't have front crowding to resolve, and I think I've posted as much some time ago in another thread. The active plate device seems specifically designed to force the front teeth apart in order to make room, and I think it's usually used for people who have massive crowding up front or teeth that need to erupt that are stuck up in the gums. With the y-plate device as long as you only use the back screw it seems like it will just simply expand the palate while leaving the front teeth alone as much as possible, although @progress stated that due to the way the suture works, a diastema still might appear.

With the y-plate device there is also a good chance of finding a way to keep the teeth together through modifications because there is a piece of acrylic that sits in the same position behind the front teeth at all times. But with your device you have to remove that piece in order to get the same functionality so I can't think of a way to wrap something around the teeth to keep them together. I'd say that if you can't think of anything to just continue with the expansion and see if the diastema (if one manifests) closes back up by itself over time.

Thanks for thinking this through with me @allixa! I remember reading your suggestion about using a y-plate without turning the front screw, but I had already ordered my basic expander. I decided that I wouldn't have wanted the y-plate anyway, because the side sections still press out against the canines. 

The front section of the y-plate is behind the four incisors. On the basic schwartz-style expander, the acrylic behind the incisors doesn't do much to move those teeth laterally. There is a slight curve that conveys some transverse force to the lateral incisors, but the canines are really located around the corner of the arch where the transverse force is in a position to move them to the side. This in turn opens up more space between the incisors. This relieves crowding between all of the front teeth, but I suspect that the midline diastema might open more because most of the expansion is happening at the midpalatal suture line.

The modification that TGW made removed the acrylic from behind the canines too so that the transverse force is localized to the bicuspids and molars. 

So this isn't the same as just using a y-plate expander without turning the front screw. Rather than removing all of the acrylic from the canines forward like TGW did, I might start by just removing a band of about 5mm from behind all six of the front teeth (leaving the wire of the labial bow in place for stability). This would still give me surface area for my extra-oral traction, but would remove the transverse pressure directly behind the canines. I think the more dramatic alteration that TGW made would open the midpalatal suture less in the front and that might better prevent the midline diastema.

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Posted : 20/03/2018 3:42 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

Yeah, I see what you are pointing out now. Removing the acrylic from behind the canines seems to be the key. Or putting it another way - making sure that only the molars and premolars get the expansive force. I actually plan to do something similar myself because I don't want to expand my canines or my front teeth at all if I can help it. All the expansion that I need done is towards the back.

Give it a shot and let us know how it goes.

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Posted : 20/03/2018 10:05 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa

Yeah, I see what you are pointing out now. Removing the acrylic from behind the canines seems to be the key. Or putting it another way - making sure that only the molars and premolars get the expansive force. I actually plan to do something similar myself because I don't want to expand my canines or my front teeth at all if I can help it. All the expansion that I need done is towards the back.

Give it a shot and let us know how it goes.

Based on my experience, I think you can probably expand with the acrylic behind the front teeth for a couple mm, and maybe more, without opening up a noticeable midline diastema, even if you don't have any crowding to begin with. I had very insignificant overlap between my upper central incisors that resolved after less than 1mm of expansion. I'm now at 2-1/4mm expansion. It seems like the canines and incisors have spaced out relatively evenly so that the contact areas between the teeth aren't as tight when I floss, but there aren't any visible gaps. I might wait a few more turns before removing the acrylic from behind the front teeth.

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Posted : 21/03/2018 3:25 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Why avoid the midline diastema if you can close the space later? Doesn't modifying the appliance like that mess up the natural suture opening?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 30/03/2018 2:42 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: abdul

Why avoid the midline diastema if you can close the space later? Doesn't modifying the appliance like that mess up the natural suture opening?

I think avoiding a diastema is a secondary consideration to achieving a more rounded, roman arch shape. Moving the canines laterally as much as the molars and bicuspids maintains the squareness of the corners of the arch, whereas moving the canines less than the molars and bicuspids makes the corners more curved. I can't speak for TGW. He said "I removed the front acrylic because I think it was preventing my front arc from expanding like it wanted to." I've speculated that this might have had something to do with the acrylic holding his left lateral incisor and canine in their overlapped orientation, but it could also be that he was going for a more rounded arch. I've expanded 3mm and haven't modified the front of my expander yet, other than smoothing down the indentations between the front 6 teeth, but I plan to reduce the acrylic behind my canines soon, although not to the extent that TGW did, at least initially.

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Posted : 30/03/2018 4:10 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Do you have an illustration showing a direct comparison between the rounded roman arch shape versus the broad square arch shape?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 31/03/2018 1:08 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: abdul

Do you have an illustration showing a direct comparison between the rounded roman arch shape versus the broad square arch shape?

Hi Abdul, my narrow maxillary arch started out something like the "tapered" arch form on the right of this image. If I keep expanding my canines laterally the same amount as my bicuspids and molars, I will end up similar to the "square" arch form on the left of the image. If I expand the molars and bicuspids more than the canines, I will end up similar to the "ovoid" arch form in the middle of the image. Tracing my expander onto a piece of paper, and then tracing the left half a few millimeters farther to the left and the right half a few millimeters farther to the right would show how square the resulting arch form would be. I would also have more space in the front than the combined width of my incisors, so there would be gaps. To get a more curved shape, I want to expand more at the back than the front.

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Posted : 31/03/2018 4:45 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

Here I've traced out approximately what my expander would look like when fully-activated without any modifications to the acrylic. You can see what I mean by square because it is mostly straight across in front of the canines and mostly straight back behind the canines. My left side started out slightly more square than my right side. If I remove the acrylic expanding the canines, I should get the bicuspids and molars to move laterally more than the canines giving a more rounded shape to the arch.

 

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Posted : 31/03/2018 11:05 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

This illustration reminds of face types, where each shape of arch corresponds to one:

Usually the face shape is determined by the gonial angle. Anything below 120 degree is considered brachy, between 120-130 Meso, and above 130 Dolicho. Based on this information the doctor is supposed to select the final arch shape. If the wrong shape is selected the arch will be forcing the bones to a shape they are not designed for and will change quickly without constant retention.  

I see that with the y-plate expansion doesn't have a preset path. It just follows the current shape of the arch that's molded into the acrylic and tries to expand it as much as possible. I guess those expanders have to be used in conjunction with braces to get the correct final arch shape. Otherwise they have to be modified as you did. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 31/03/2018 11:32 pm
hkeango30
New Member

@apollo if you had the y-plate couldn't you just file the area behind the canine to have the same effect of lateral expansion?

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Posted : 06/05/2020 12:54 pm
hkeango30
New Member

@apollo also do you think it would be easier to get the y-plate then file the incisor or get the basic Schwartz and file the whole frontal portion?

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Posted : 06/05/2020 1:01 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

@hkeango30

To be clear, I generally discourage self treatment with removable expanders because I don't think the risks are worth their limited benefit. That being said, if you're determined to experiment with one and plan to remove the anterior section, it doesn't really matter which type you start with. If you aren't using or are removing the only part that distinguishes the two, I'd go with the less expensive option.

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Posted : 06/05/2020 1:20 pm
Balazs2001
New Member

@apollo

How much expansion can the Y-Plate / 3-Way Schwarz produce in width when fully activated? I didn't see anyone talking about this. I'm 19 yo male, with good forward development, 2 of my upper wisdom teeths are fully in erupted in the correct position as well as 1 lower, but i'm lacking grately in width, my inter molar is 32mm. Im planning on turning the screw 4 times every week, as this produces 1mm a week wich is what Mike Mew uses. Is it possible to expand 10-20mm with the applience?

 

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Posted : 12/01/2021 4:55 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @balazs2001

Is it possible to expand 10-20mm with the applience?

With the disclaimer that I generally discourage self-treatment, you could get a removable acrylic expander that opens 10mm, but not as far as 20mm. The schwartz expander I had started to come apart around 7mm. Beyond about 3mm you'll have to start making adjustments to the acrylic framework to maintain the fit. Also, you won't see a 1:1 increase in intermolar width since much of the expansion will just tilt the teeth.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 5:23 pm
Balazs2001
New Member

@apollo

Why would it only tilt the teeth? What do you mean by coming apart at 7 mm? When I emailed BracesShop about having to do any adjustments to the expander after a few mm they said the patient only needs to turn the screw. When you say making adjustments to the framework are u talking about the labial bow, and how does one adjust it? I know self treatment is not very smart, but i have no other choise. I couldnt find anyone knowledgeable enough, and i desperatly needed an expander, the Schwarz is the only one i could find, otherwise i cannot mew. I also have a very little crossbite.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 6:26 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @balazs2001

@apollo

Why would it only tilt the teeth? What do you mean by coming apart at 7 mm? When I emailed BracesShop about having to do any adjustments to the expander after a few mm they said the patient only needs to turn the screw. When you say making adjustments to the framework are u talking about the labial bow, and how does one adjust it? I know self treatment is not very smart, but i have no other choise. I couldnt find anyone knowledgeable enough, and i desperatly needed an expander, the Schwarz is the only one i could find, otherwise i cannot mew. I also have a very little crossbite.

It won't only tilt the teeth, but there will be at least some teeth tilting. You'll probably also have some remodeling and bending of the alveolar bone. This changes the contour of the palate and requires some of the acrylic framework to be filed down or you start to get ulcers on the gums. This would typically be done by your orthodontist, and knowing how and where to do it requires skill. The labial bow also needs to be adjusted when it starts to put pressure on the incisors, but this usually happens later in the expansion and is easier to do. If you have realistic goals, you might get some limited benefit, but even professionals struggle to get significant results from removeable expanders in adult patients.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 7:06 pm
Balazs2001
New Member

@apollo

Thank you for taking the time to help me out!

In one of Mike Mews videos he was showing before and after photos of a 30+ yo female who he expanded with a removable appliance he said it had palatal coverage, so i m guessing it was a similar appliance to Schwarz. Mike was expanding her 1mm a week with minimal but visible tooth tipping, her crossbite was completely fixed and notible expansion, it took 4 months. Now im 19yo im guessing i should get similar changes if not better changes easier. Also im not sure i understand what the front screw does, and if i should be turning it, i have a bit of crowding at the front upper and also lower teeth, now i have no clue how my lower teeth crowding will resolve.. i guess it just follows the upper arch, thats what i heard.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 7:17 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @balazs2001

@apollo

Thank you for taking the time to help me out!

In one of Mike Mews videos he was showing before and after photos of a 30+ yo female who he expanded with a removable appliance he said it had palatal coverage, so i m guessing it was a similar appliance to Schwarz. Mike was expanding her 1mm a week with minimal but visible tooth tipping, her crossbite was completely fixed and notible expansion, it took 4 months. Now im 19yo im guessing i should get similar changes if not better changes easier. Also im not sure i understand what the front screw does, and if i should be turning it, i have a bit of crowding at the front upper and also lower teeth, now i have no clue how my lower teeth crowding will resolve.. i guess it just follows the upper arch, thats what i heard.

I know the case you're referencing and it encouraged me to try a removable expander too. Maybe your relative youth would give you better results than I had. I just used a basic schwartz because I didn't want to mess with a forward screw. It seems likely to tip your front teeth forward and your back teeth backward. After about 7mm, the stabilizing rods beside the expansion screw started pulling out allowing the two halves of the expander to rotate freely and making it unstable to advance any farther. The lower teeth can follow the upper arch to some extent, especially if you are chewing regularly, but if you're actually successful at significantly expanding the upper arch you'd need some kind of intervention on the lowers. I don't know the particulars of your case, but I suspect that you'll feel like it wasn't worth the investment of effort and money in the end. I am bias because I didn't get significant, stable results from using a removable expander and have gotten improvement with a bone anchored expander.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 10:27 pm
Balazs2001
New Member

@apollo

It's interesting that on the website they are actually describing the basic active plate to only be able to expand 4mm and it should be activated once a week producing 0.20-0.25mm of expansion in the midline of the appliance for 4 months, so 7mm should be way beyond its capability. The number one reason why I ordered the other Schwarz is becouse they are saying the screw should be turned every 2 days until the desired result is achieved, so if you can turn it 4 times every week that is 1mm, wich is the ideal rate according to Mike Mew and if you can keep that up for 4 months that is 16mm of expansion. Any slower than that you mostly get tooth tipping, and movement, any faster and u damage the bones and gum. In the Mike Mew video that we are both talking about Mike didnt use a lower appliance. I think the key to fixing the crossbite is actually not chewing and keeping the applience in 24/7 until the upper and lower teeth change their incorrect position. Can i ask how often you turned the screw, so what your rate of expansion was? Becouse I think the basic Schwarz was designed to only be able to expand 0.25mm a week wich is way too slow to get actual new bone growth in the middle of the palate.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 10:53 pm
Mr_Man
Eminent Member

@balazs2001

What you'll have to remember is that after perhaps 4, 5, or 6 mm of expansion of the appliance, you're going to have to order another one.  That can take maybe 6-7 weeks after you order another expander, wait for the mold kits, and then send them the new mold (and wait for them to receive it).  During this time you'll just have to leave your existing appliance in.  To get 16 mm of appliance expansion, you'll probably go through about 4 different expanders, which adds up to something like 8 months of time just covering the ordering, molding, mailing, and waiting periods.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 11:03 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @balazs2001

@apollo

It's interesting that on the website they are actually describing the basic active plate to only be able to expand 4mm and it should be activated once a week producing 0.20-0.25mm of expansion in the midline of the appliance for 4 months, so 7mm should be way beyond its capability. The number one reason why I ordered the other Schwarz is becouse they are saying the screw should be turned every 2 days until the desired result is achieved, so if you can turn it 4 times every week that is 1mm, wich is the ideal rate according to Mike Mew and if you can keep that up for 4 months that is 16mm of expansion. Any slower than that you mostly get tooth tipping, and movement, any faster and u damage the bones and gum. In the Mike Mew video that we are both talking about Mike didnt use a lower appliance. I think the key to fixing the crossbite is actually not chewing and keeping the applience in 24/7 until the upper and lower teeth change their incorrect position.

I turned once ever 2-5 days depending how tight it felt in my mouth. If I remember the video correctly, there was a pretty obvious discrepancy between the upper and lower molars in the "after" image of Dr. Mew's case and I think he says something about using clear aligners to tidy things up. Somewhere on this forum I posted about that case with the before and after images, but I'd have to search for it.

 

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Posted : 12/01/2021 11:07 pm
Balazs2001
New Member

@mr_man

Why would you have to order multiple expanders, do you have personal experience with the more expensive Schwarz? Were you able to only expand 4, 5, 6mm?

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Posted : 12/01/2021 11:08 pm
Balazs2001
New Member

@apollo

She had her palate over expanded on one side, that Mike was saying they will gently let it relapse, now im not sure how do you relapse an over expanded side? Do you just not place your tounge on that side haha like i dont get it. And the tidy things up part is honestly whatever the tounge will fix minor remaining issues, once you have a wider palate, her crossbite was completely corrected. You can clearly see how the relation of the 4 upper and lower incisors changed.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 11:13 pm
Mr_Man
Eminent Member

@balazs2001

Yes (but just the basic Schwartz expander).  The first one, I was able to get something like 5 mm total, of which maybe half was molar tipping.  After that, the screw didn't seem to turn properly, and despite filing down to fit my palate (as it reshaped) it kept slipping out.  So I waited a couple months (while not using the expander) while the teeth un-tilted themselves, ordered a new one, then after finally getting the new one, I had at least achieved maybe 2.5 mm expansion from before.  I'm kind of repeating the process now.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 11:19 pm
Balazs2001
New Member

@mr_man

By first one you mean the one that also has a front screw? What was your rate of expansion?

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Posted : 12/01/2021 11:22 pm
Balazs2001
New Member

@mr_man

If you had the basic Schwarz, the one with only 1 screw that appliance is meant to only expand 4-5mm in 4-5 months wich is way to slow to gain actual bone changes, it will mostly be teeth moving, instead of new bone growth.

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Posted : 12/01/2021 11:26 pm
Mr_Man
Eminent Member

@balazs2001

It just had one screw to expand sideways.  Expanded at about 1 turn every 3 days

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Posted : 13/01/2021 9:28 am
Balazs2001
New Member

Hey, something i've been wondering is that lets say i gain 7 mm of expansion with the y plate [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] happens to the lower jaw? If i keep my teeth together while wearing the applience 24/7 will the lower teeth expand the same time and amount as the upper teeth so that my bite will fit together as it should? Right now both sides of my upper teeth fit outside of the lower as it should with only 1mm of crossbite visible at the incisors. I saw TGW explaining that most of the movement he could feel at the lower teeth. Now i have slight crowding in my lower front teeth as well as the upper incisors so they positioned themselfs in a way that i have a comfortable bite, I wanna be curtain that the lower teeth will follow the upper if i keep them together while lets say I expand 6-7mm actual bone and not teeth tipping in my palate. I've also read that the palate expander will follow the crossbite shape of the palate so that it wont resolve, but that makes no sense to me. Everybody says that palate expansion is the way to correct this discrepancy and on the bracesshop website they also say in the description of the expander, that you can correct a crossbite with the device. I guess i am just asking for opinions, reassurance that i am not wrong in my thinking. Thank you very much!

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Posted : 17/01/2021 12:10 pm