Share:

NOTICE:

DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION

This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

Overbite vs Underbite: the (non)universal importance of the posterior tongue?  

  RSS
Progress
Member Moderator

A question that has been on my mind lately is the issue of whether or not everyone will benefit from focusing on the posterior tongue. There seems to be two common positions the maxilla can recede into: overbite and underbite. Could it be that while both maxillary positions are defined by a lack of forward growth, one of these is also defined by excessive maxillary CCW rotation and the other by excessive CW rotation?  Could it be that there are two kind of tongue postural deficiencies: a deficiency of the anterior tongue posture (overbite), and a deficiency of the posterior tongue posture (underbite)?

If this is the case, could it be that people with overbite would see more benefit from focusing on an upward movement of the anterior tongue, and the people with underbite on an upward movement of the posterior tongue? 

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Quote
Posted : 13/01/2019 12:00 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

I am not sure if Dr. Mew covered this, but most evidence seems to suggest skeletal class 3 (underbite) as a genetic condition. It's very common in families that practiced heavy interbreeding such as 15th century monarchies in Europe, etc. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/01/2019 12:11 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman

I am not sure if Dr. Mew covered this, but most evidence seems to suggest skeletal class 3 (underbite) as a genetic condition. It's very common in families that practiced heavy interbreeding such as 15th century monarchies in Europe, etc. 

Charles II of Spain and the whole Hapsburg family are good examples of what you are talking about:

Yet, it must be asked: how big percentage of underbites can be explained away by genetics alone? Based on the paintings, the whole Hapsburg family appears to be suffering  from various degrees of mid-face deficiency. Is it possible that the ratio of anterior vs posterior tongue engagement will play a role in determining whether the individual will end up with underbite or overbite?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/01/2019 12:32 pm
Sclera
Estimable Member

I had an underbite as a toddler and child, though none of my family on either side had one as far as I'm aware. My first set of braces moved my jaw back - this was around 8 years old. My second set of braces started with the extractions to correct the crowding, and I was left with a class ii.

Now with a class ii, I definitely experienced weak posterior tongue that needed strenghening. But if you're talking about a secondary/intermediate-level focus, such as with posterior third up but focusing intention on upwards pressure via anterior tongue, then I would be really curious.

I often feel tingling, pressure, sometimes heat when I do these focuses, and they pool in different areas depending on that focus.

When I focus pressure forwards and up with my posterior third, I can feel the left side of my nose and my left cheekbone heat up. When I press up using my anterior third, the tip of my nose and the center of my bridge takes the pressure.

I make sure to relax my facial muscles when I take stock of these feelings, but I can't say if they're creating actual change.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/01/2019 1:25 pm
adcr
 adcr
Eminent Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

I am not sure if Dr. Mew covered this, but most evidence seems to suggest skeletal class 3 (underbite) as a genetic condition. It's very common in families that practiced heavy interbreeding such as 15th century monarchies in Europe, etc. 

It’s also caused by improper tongue posture but not mouth breathing, at least that’s what I’ve noticed with my class III. Nobody in my family has it but me

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/01/2019 2:37 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Started as a Class 3 and had tongue on floor of mouth posture. I think if Class 3 is genetic it is the European variation of exaggerated  prognathism

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/01/2019 4:05 pm
mewchew
New Member

I remember  seeing a documentary about coding genetics and how they could predict (using genetics) the posture and how hard someone would suck when smoking a cigarette.

I wonder if this is the same for something like the Hapsburgs.  Is the behavior of tongue posturing epigenetic?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/01/2019 9:07 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Update: in an attempt to directly target my overbite, I have now begun pushing solely with the tip of the tongue against the incisive papilla, with the intent to trigger maxillary CCW rotation, rather than just upward/forward movement. I'm allowing the hyoid and the posterior tongue to be lowered down into the throat in order to create a strong base from which to generate the push against the papilla. This is opening up my nasal passages further than even before, and the same can be said about both the intensity of the feelings I get in my face and the naturalness of my posture. Combined with the chin tuck, there now exists an interesting dynamic tension between the first verbetrae at the posterior skull vs "the spot" of the palate, as both are trying to move up and rotate to opposing directions;

I have already long suspected that this is an important dynamic to have in proper posture, but focusing on the tip/papilla push in particular has highlighted just how much these opposing forces stabilize the whole upper end of the spine. I'll possibly report more about this in a month or two.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/02/2019 2:30 pm
scerif liked
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

So do you mean that the posterior third of the tongue doesen't exert pressure on the maxilla? Why do you think the Mews say the most important part is to get the posterior third up there? Also don't you think the force you can apply with tip of the tongue is very small compared to the back of the tongue? Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on the middle of the tongue?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/02/2019 2:59 pm
Lowerjawgrowth
Active Member
Posted by: Progress

Update: in an attempt to directly target my overbite, I have now begun pushing solely with the tip of the tongue against the incisive papilla, with the intent to trigger maxillary CCW rotation, rather than just upward/forward movement. I'm allowing the hyoid and the posterior tongue to be lowered down into the throat in order to create a strong base from which to generate the push against the papilla. This is opening up my nasal passages further than even before, and the same can be said about both the intensity of the feelings I get in my face and the naturalness of my posture. Combined with the chin tuck, there now exists an interesting dynamic tension between the first verbetrae at the posterior skull vs "the spot" of the palate, as both are trying to move up and rotate to opposing directions;

I have already long suspected that this is an important dynamic to have in proper posture, but focusing on the tip/papilla push in particular has highlighted just how much these opposing forces stabilize the whole upper end of the spine. I'll possibly report more about this in a month or two.

I’m really interested in this post. So you’re focusing more on the tip of tongue on the incisive paillae rather than the postierior third?

I, myself have an overbite and find it challenging to get my posterior third to be flush against my palate because my palate is quite vaulted and narrows closer to the front of my mouth than the back.

 

when I focus on simply the tip, I get a better lip seal. My mouth struggles to close if I force the back of my tongue up. Also, focusing on the tip helps me do a proper swallow way more easily. I’m glad I came across someone who experiences the issues with overbites, too.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/02/2019 10:29 pm
WrongNotes
Active Member

Hey @Progress

How has this new method worked out for you?

What you say makes a lot of sense to me - I feel much more stable pushing against the incisive papilla.

I've also recently discovered that forcing that posterior third of the tongue heavily engages the suprahyoid muscles, which are responsible for mandible retraction. Which if you have an overbite (and I do), is the complete opposite of what one would want.

With all this considered, I'm starting to believe that you have to earn the right to engage the posterior third. And by that I mean you have to be posturally sound enough that the tongue can sit there with reasonable ease. Brute forcing your tongue to sit on your soft palate means there is likely a compensation taking place somewhere else in the region.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/03/2019 3:08 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Ummm I have an underbite and my maxilla is definitely not rotated CCW excessively at all. Matter of fact my face is downswung a lot and long. Excessive CCW rotation would shorten the face and mine is long.

Mewing and pushing up has fixed my bite little by little

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/03/2019 9:02 am
Progress
Member Moderator

@lowerjawgrowth

@wrongnotes

Yes, I am now convinced the technique I talked about is the way forward for me. This experiment has undergone a bit of refinement recently. In addition to pushing mostly only forward & sideward with the tongue, I am now also visualizing pushing the underside of my tongue "through" my chin, which has taught me to activate the root of the tongue. I do this during chewing too, as it feels soothing.

My underbite has been lessening. I am pretty sure my chin is growing. At some point after first arriving at this notion, I realized that the root of the tongue is one kind of an endpoint to the anatomical "spinal chain" that begins at the hips, and that  as such, its tone must have a huge role in supporting the whole body.

In light of these premises: could the shape of the chin serve as a marker of the tone of the root of the tongue? Could this be a partial biological explanation for chin being perhaps the most alluring and attractive quality in the face? Why does proportional chin implant boost the perceived healthiness of a person more than any other kind of facial modification?

Perhaps it's not just the hormones, but the nervous system together with the musculature that creates the properly protruding "functional-aesthetic" chin structure. Chin would then be a direct window into the overall tone of your whole nervous system. What supports this view is that there appears to be this kind of subtle anatomic connection between the groin and the chin that also seems to be related to the mechanisms of breathing. Coincidentally, @darkindigo or some other user here claimed that ADHD can be physiognomically assessed by how insufficiently the nose and the chin protrude. It seems like we could be pointing towards the same big picture.

Lastly, if I were to re-make OP, I'd probably try to assert that underbite comes from overactivation of the root + the failure to hit the roof of the mouth (overdeveloped jaw undeveloped maxilla), whereas overbite would come from the failure to hit both the root and the roof (underdeveloped jaw undeveloped maxilla). If this is true, in some ways underbite could be seen as a step more developed form of structure than overbite, because then the tongue has been getting at least one of its jobs done. Perhaps this is also why overbite is said to be the harder jaw issue to fix? Because with overbite the postural failure is one layer deeper? People with underbite certainly seem to have less postural issues than those with overbite, who in turn nearly always suffer from lordotic and scoliotic curvature. But I might have adopted another view once again by the next time I write about this, so who knows.

 

[img][/img]

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/04/2019 4:22 pm
TGW liked
Youssef El Kaisi
Active Member

Coincidentally, @darkindigo or some other user here claimed that ADHD can be physiognomically assessed by how insufficiently the nose and the chin protrude.

 

I think it was @rockyp33

I have an overbite of less tan 5  mm and a somewhat weak chin, despite having a wide jaw.

The force I exert is more forwards and sideways than upwards (and comes from the mid tongue section mainly), whereas with your method I mostly get upwards force (coming from just the tip, and feels really exhausting compared to the other). Maybe I didn't understand it correctly?

Youssef

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2019 11:12 am
darkindigo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Youssef El Kaisi

Coincidentally, @darkindigo or some other user here claimed that ADHD can be physiognomically assessed by how insufficiently the nose and the chin protrude.

 

I think it was @rockyp33

I have an overbite of less tan 5  mm and a somewhat weak chin, despite having a wide jaw.

The force I exert is more forwards and sideways than upwards (and comes from the mid tongue section mainly), whereas with your method I mostly get upwards force (coming from just the tip, and feels really exhausting compared to the other). Maybe I didn't understand it correctly?

I have first-hand experience with focus and airway-centered treatment.  There is a lot of ADHD that is diagnosed improperly.  Much of the time it is sleep disordered breathing.  However, there's really more to it than that.

ADHD is airway to brain and brain health and processing as it ties to the gut.

Resolution:
Nordic Naturals Cod Liver Oil
I always assume vitamin D deficiency (not enough sun hitting the skin in the summer and spring/fall during peak times... in many locations winter just doesn't allow for enough vitamin D).... hence the cod liver oil.  The sun we get through glass has UVB filtered out.  UVA still has mood-lifting qualities, but not vitamin D creation.  Getting REAL sun, close to the equator is needed or where there is less chance of pollutants and the atmosphere surrounding the earth limiting the rays.
The Nemecheck protocol includes fish oil.
Healthy diet and exercise to develop (basically.. let kids be kids).
The appliances that help with ADHD are such that are addressing the airway.  However, that's not an entirely correct picture...  it's complicated.

Most of the kids today just lack enough sleep.  If I don't enough sleep, I'm unfocused, too!

For some very useful scientific information on this, I would suggest: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4340974/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10733617?fbclid=IwAR3gXkvoMBCWqv3HFzSTBCU1tf6RxnCTvYMxinn_m8tA4eFuHNXZNiWrUxk
https://secure.nouvant.com/umich/technology/3766/license/7
http://www.airwaydevelopment.com/2014/06/link-airways-obstructive-sleep-apnea-faces/
 
http://truthbutter.com/ape-diary-5-my-consult-with-dr-brad-lockhart/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQXilP5BTVs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dKRZZoIkI0&t=590s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBqhZELRj0Q&t=220s

In my understanding, the ADHD/orthodontic connection is both under-recognized AND oversold.  I would highly encourage exercise and developmentally supportive ways that help, depending on the age.

ABOVE ALL - BE AWARE THAT ADHD MEDICATIONS HURT QUALITY SLEEP.  That's why they're known to stunt growth.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2019 7:42 pm
Youssef El Kaisi
Active Member
Posted by: darkindigo

Getting REAL sun

Isn't too much sun a danger for getting skin cancer?

Youssef

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/04/2019 10:58 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: @youssef-el-kaisi
Posted by: darkindigo

Getting REAL sun

Isn't too much sun a danger for getting skin cancer?

In sunnyish countrys, 20 minutes of sunbathing a day is enough and doesnt represent a danger. Most people fail to do this cause everyone is always inside. 

In colder countrys you can and should be out in the sun more time. 

Indigo didnt suggest you go to the beach the whole day. 

Physical exercises outside are perfect.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/08/2019 2:29 pm
Share:

Face Development

Please Login or Register