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Observations of widespread excellent facial development in Lyon, France  

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Silver
(@silver)
Active Member

I've been in Lyon, France for about three weeks now and seen a lot of the city, and at different times, and wow! I would estimate that 50–70% of the French people here have (by American standards) outstanding forward growth, and much more commonly than in Paris. I'm talking faces so well developed that 90% of the bottom edge of the mandible is in front of their neck and within 10 degrees of parallel to the ground. Excellent orbital support & prominent cheekbones. I mean really, really, well developed faces. Not perfect by any means, but the people here are gorgeous, phenotype aside.

What's different about Lyon, France? For starters, it is the gastronomic capital of France, and some say the world. Lyon is in the center of a number of France's "best" regions for certain agriculture, and as a consequence, nouvelle cuisine was virtually invented here in the 1960s. I have been both living and dining with a local family and eating out, and the food here largely adheres to Weston A. Price Foundation principles. (High quantities of healthy fats, organ meats, more vegetables than the Standard American Diet, etc.)

EDIT: Forgot to add: I've been eating like locals, and it's maybe slightly more chewy than American food. 

France has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the West but there is a cultural stigma against holding the mouth open at rest. There is a saying here, « ferme ta bouche, tu vas attraper des mouches » which means: close your mouth, you're going to catch flies like that. I have seen very few mouth breathers here. I could not easily find data on the rate of tongue tie or tongue tie surgery (but I did find this link that claims that the most common problem behind poor breastfeeding is not tongue tie, as is widely thought, but low maternal milk production).

What I think is particularly striking is that from what I can tell, typically those French people whose faces are not very well-developed are very (by American standards) recessed! It's either-or here. I have no idea if that is correlated with socioeconomic status or whatever but their phenotype does look the same.

Finally, not all well-developed faces are attractive faces. They are, on balance, much more attractive, and certainly much more striking, but I have seen many people here whose faces are among the most correctly forward-grown, but are markedly less beautiful than those whose faces are not. I read on here or Lookism or somewhere that the primary factor in facial beauty is not correct development per se, but features in harmony with each other (distance ratios etc.). I think he was right. Even Mew himself has said in a video that those considered most beautiful today (celebrities etc.) have "okay" facial development. Beauty is more complicated than many of us think it is.  (Obviously, though, symmetry most often occurs with correct facial development.)

I'll update this in a few months if my impression changes.

This topic was modified 3 weeks  ago 2 times by Silver
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Posted : 23/09/2018 5:21 pm TGW liked
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

Facial beauty = ideal spacing of features according to the golden ratio. Yes maxillary forward growth will affect this but not as much as people think. Things like square jaw, low gonial angle, eyes hooded or deep set, forehead slope realistically have no effect on facial aesthetics really

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Posted : 23/09/2018 6:17 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator

Interesting observations, thanks for sharing.

 

@eddiemoney Of course everything about the face will affect the way the face is perceived. You can't pick out single qualities and decide "this affects beauty, this does not, this does...". As long as we are talking about facial aesthetics, then, by definition, everything about the face will affect it. Every quality is relevant and meaningful.

Were you right, it would mean that people of identical proportions would be perceived as being identically beautiful regardless of the differences in their minute details (such as the eye-hooding you mention). In reality, often these details either make or break the face. In addition to raw proportions, details too determine how the face comes together. Moreover, qualities like gonial angle and forehead slope ARE qualities of proportion, since they influence shape. In practice, that's what proportions are: shapes and their relationships to each other. Wouldn't you agree?

You sometimes come across as if you were so knowledgeable that explaining yourself was beneath you. Merely making claims doesn't contribute much. I'm not telling you to change your behavior, just making sure that you are aware of this impression you give, because it's unlikely to be something that you have intended.

 

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Posted : 24/09/2018 8:08 am Phil343443 and rogerramjet liked
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Estimable Member

Very interesting observations. You covered their facial form quite well but what about their teeth. Did you notice any crowding on some of the people you observed with good facial form? The reason I ask is that what you observed could possibly have something to do with their phenotype over their habits.

name changed from abdul to Abdulrahman

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Posted : 24/09/2018 8:58 am
therose
(@therose)
Active Member

I recently spent some time around people from the Netherlands and northern Germany and I thought they had craniofacial development far better than the average American. 

Interesting that you mention diet in Lyon. I've read so much about mechanical factors in jaw development but I wonder whether diet is equally important.

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Posted : 24/09/2018 10:37 am
Silver
(@silver)
Active Member

OP updated

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Posted : 24/09/2018 6:27 pm
Silver
(@silver)
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Very interesting observations. You covered their facial form quite well but what about their teeth. Did you notice any crowding on some of the people you observed with good facial form? The reason I ask is that what you observed could possibly have something to do with their phenotype over their habits.

Why would phenotype affect teeth crowding? Everything we know from Mew and the WAPF suggests that there is no such phenotype—it's imperfect development.

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Posted : 24/09/2018 6:30 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Silver
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Very interesting observations. You covered their facial form quite well but what about their teeth. Did you notice any crowding on some of the people you observed with good facial form? The reason I ask is that what you observed could possibly have something to do with their phenotype over their habits.

Why would phenotype affect teeth crowding? Everything we know from Mew and the WAPF suggests that there is no such phenotype—it's imperfect development.

What I meant is that phenotype could affect the appearance of good facial form. Someone with a phenotype that has genetically very wide zygomatic arches will still show good face width even when recessed. In this case the only way to know is to check his teeth. If there is crowding that's a good sign he has a problem even though his face does not show it as much.   

name changed from abdul to Abdulrahman

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Posted : 25/09/2018 12:25 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Active Member

Interesting.  I will say that I had wondered about this... let me explain something I had recently watched... from my idol, Dr. Derek Mahony.  It's entitled, "Malocclusions (Part 2/5) - An Introduction to Dr Mahony's Mini-Residency in Orthodontics".  Start at 6:30 to the end of this video.  It is an incredible watch about facial beauty and cephlometic analysis.  I don't want to spoil it for you, but it's DEFINITELY worth the watch!

Dr. Bill Hang and Dr. Mahony learned from the Mews.  I think Dr. Bill Hang's quick analysis of maxillary positioning where the mm from the bottom of the 2 front teeth to the tip of the nose makes some sense... though I wonder if it's a bit forward... hard to say.  I personally have been scouted for modeling a few times and my bottom of teeth to tip of nose is 39 mm which is right where it should be for a woman.  I look pretty normal, I think.  Not piggy, not too long - maybe a titch long in my lower chin (splitting hairs).  Truthfully, my face is fairly ordinary - just I'm tall, thin and blond.  For more information on Dr. Mew's maxilla positioning analysis... take 21 mm for women and add age up to 18.  For men take 23... actually... just Google search "facefocused measure your facial balance".  He had gotten this from the Mews & Dr. Hang uses it in his practice... continually measuring this distance.  I'm not personally subscribing to this as I don't have enough information...  it seems like a good way that's not dependent on x-rays.  I will say that as indicated in Dr. Mahony's video... the top models had class 2 bites.  Perhaps camera distortion?  It would be interesting to see about beauty not through the camera lense.  Dr. Mahony does subscribe to a class 1 bite as ideal, however.  Anyway, super interesting stuff! 

One last personal observation...  after going to several orthodontists and reviewing before/afters - even if only on Facebook... I found that orthodontists typically like to make their patients look like themselves.  Ex... an orthodontist with a pointy chin will spit out patients with more of a pointy chin.  A big/flat chin is made by a local orthodontist who has a huge/flat chin.  A mousy looking orthodontist doesn't treat phase 1 much with expansion and just makes do on phase 2.  A handsome looking orthodontist (nice maxillary positioning) spits out beauty contest winners.  Gorgeous.  You can't teach this stuff... an eye is just an eye.  You can't learn this in school & it's hard to knock out of you.  There could be some who don't do this or base it on a loved one.  I'm NOT saying that this pattern holds everywhere, but it is very interesting through observation (of pediatric patients where the facial shape is more influencible - I haven't looked much at adult patients and expect less variation).  Also, based on Dr. Mahony's video where he fits a reverse pull face mask on a cute little girl... he says that as we age our chin and nose protrude, so he was giving the chin some room to move foward without it looking funny.  So, there is an obvious balance needed in an airway-focused treatement.

This post was modified 3 weeks  ago 7 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 25/09/2018 2:29 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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