Share:

NOTICE:

DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION

This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

No increase in intermolar width after 7 months of mewing, where to go from here?  

  RSS
Mewer000
Active Member

I feel like I have wasted time as I have been mewing to what I feel is at a high level for 7 months though clearly I have not as the objective data says otherwise. I have had braces and was wearing  invisalign retainer for 3 years (post braces, stopped wearing retainer 7 months ago when I started "proper mewing"). The retainer's upper intermolar width is measured at close to 36mm, I have been using this as a landmark for comparison, clearly if my bite still fits in this retainer there has been no increase in IMW. Im 21 and have about 4 years until results can become hard to achieve, I don't wont to waste any more time. I have perfected my posture constantly lightly tensing my core slightly with straight neck whilst holding a mild to strong suction hold throughout the day for 7 months. I lift weights and have a strong body, idk what I am doing wrong. Is it just me or have others struggled like this?

May it be neccessary that I invest in an expansion device? If so what sort? I live in Australia so orthotropics is not practiced here, idk where I could get something like that. Also is thumb pulling on the posterior molars an effective way to increase IMW? Normal mewing isnt working for me, I honestly feel like im practicing superior posture atleast 80% of the day and am lightly mewing whilst sleeping (When i wake up my mouth is closed). I know its possible to expand the upper palate at my age but im not sure if my case will require some sort of extra effort which I am not currently applying.

Any advice would be appreciated, Thankyou

Note; my face has become slightly more aesthetic over the past 7 months though I believe it is has been solely soft tissue changes at this point in time. I do feel a slight pressure from my tongue force so I am clearly exerting some form of pressure in an upward direction, though possibly due to my small IMW I haven't been able to apply necessary force outwardly. 

This topic was modified 9 months ago 5 times by Mewer000
Quote
Posted : 31/12/2018 5:30 pm
AlphaMinus
Estimable Member

I do not believe it is possible to expand the palate with the tongue, especially not in adults. I've read the most ridiculous claims from people saying "I gained 2mm in 3 months" and suchlike, but NONE of them report a gap appearing between the incisors, which must happen if the palate expands. The only IMW gains adults have achieved by mewing must come from tipping of the molars IMO. Either that, or they're kidding themselves that they measured accurately. Even with calipers, measurements are likely to be off as much as 1-2mm depending on the exact spots on the teeth that are measured from.

If ANY of these people had opened their suture and gained real palate width, they would be chomping at the bit to post before/after photos showing the necessary gap between their teeth. But they don't. And it's not as if they don't have a "before" pic to use - everyone has a past photo of them smiling somewhere, and neither lighting nor angle could fake a tooth gap. It's the easiest and most reliable before/after pic imaginable, yet nobody posts them to back up their claims of palate expansion by mewing.

If you're an adult who wants to expand the palate, you're going to have to do it with an appliance and/or surgery.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 6:29 pm
Ayla31
Trusted Member

@Mewer000, if you want to be sure that you are doing everything correctly now that you are still young, why dont you go to a myofunctional therapist?

They would measure how strong your facial and lingual muscles are and be there for you until they have reached the normal strength. If they are like mine was, they would also test if you are swallowing correctly (with a liquid that shines under blue light or something) and also give a lot of different exercises to do at home (with water, food too, elastics on tongue, etc). And everybody has different bad habits, so they will work on yours.  There wont be so much uncertainty, like when doing this process alone.

And Myofunctional therapy is often necessary before expansion or surgery, anyway, to avoid relapse.

@AlphaMinus, if you look again, there are a couple of people who have claimed to have a diastema.

I get diastemas easily when doing a lot of push swallows or doing the nnnnng exercise a lot, but I think it has to do more the tip of the tongue being too close to the incisors (in my case), since I haven't been able to put the back of my tongue on the roof of the mouth life the old times. And there are also many people with recessed faces that have this gap.  So even if many people here don't get gaps, doesn't mean they haven't had any expansion.

 

This post was modified 9 months ago 6 times by Ayla31
ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 6:54 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: AlphaMinus

I do not believe it is possible to expand the palate with the tongue, especially not in adults. I've read the most ridiculous claims from people saying "I gained 2mm in 3 months" and suchlike, but NONE of them report a gap appearing between the incisors, which must happen if the palate expands. The only IMW gains adults have achieved by mewing must come from tipping of the molars IMO. Either that, or they're kidding themselves that they measured accurately. Even with calipers, measurements are likely to be off as much as 1-2mm depending on the exact spots on the teeth that are measured from.

If ANY of these people had opened their suture and gained real palate width, they would be chomping at the bit to post before/after photos showing the necessary gap between their teeth. But they don't. And it's not as if they don't have a "before" pic to use - everyone has a past photo of them smiling somewhere, and neither lighting nor angle could fake a tooth gap. It's the easiest and most reliable before/after pic imaginable, yet nobody posts them to back up their claims of palate expansion by mewing.

If you're an adult who wants to expand the palate, you're going to have to do it with an appliance and/or surgery.

Diastema only occurs in rapid palatal expansion. Expanding "2mm in 3 months" would be way too slow to result in such gap. Based on @eddiemoney's and my own experiences, the rate of expansion from mewing can reach about 0.5-1 mm per month in adults.

@mewer000 In order to expand the palate, you need to generate sufficient lateral force. Note that an expander appliance generates a force that is vastly more intense than basic tongue posturing. This means that in order ot achieve palatal expansion, merely keeping the tongue in its place may not be enough. You need to push. In order to improve your technique to provide maximum amount of leverage, try to engage your palatoglossus and styloglossus muscles in a way that slides your tongue back and up, at the expense of the anterior tongue tongue moving away from incisive papilla. The anterior tongue will come to reside at near the border of soft/hard palate. Your posterior tongue should be comfortably lodged in between the structures of the throat and the ramus. From this place, try to widen your tongue laterally while pushing it upward. You should be able to push the sides of the tongue behind your backmost molars. You'll notice that the further back your tongue is, the more comfortably you'll be able to use it as a maxillary expander. If you can feel the pterygoid hamulus poking through the soft palate, try to push the body of the tongue firmly against these. The pterygoids are the lower wings of the sphenoid, a bone that articulates with almost every other bone of the skull. I'm fairly sure that most of the often claimed importance of posterior tongue comes from its ability to push against the sphenoid, which in turn causes the rest of the cranial bones to shift in response.

This post was modified 9 months ago by Progress
ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 7:15 pm
Mewer000 and Apollo liked
AlphaMinus
Estimable Member

So are you saying that during slow palate expansion, the suture opens and the two halves separate without a gap appearing? I'm not sure I understand how that works. Is it that the suture opens and separates more toward the back of the palate than the front? Otherwise it seems to me that diastema as a result of palate expansion would be an unavoidable consequence? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 7:19 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: AlphaMinus

So are you saying that during slow palate expansion, the suture opens and the two halves separate without a gap appearing? I'm not sure I understand how that works. Is it that the suture opens and separates more toward the back of the palate than the front? Otherwise it seems to me that diastema as a result of palate expansion would be an unavoidable consequence? 

Consider this: the structure and function of the occlusion determines where the preferred "home", or the point of balance, of each tooth is. In slow expansion, the incisors will return to their preferred occlusal positions faster than they are being pulled apart by the sutural separation. Due to the same mechanism, people often have to wear retainers after braces... the braces move the tooth/teeth to positions where the jaws would not prefer the teeth to reside at, thus in order to prevent relapse caused by the natural functioning of the occlusion, jaws & posture, the teeth have to be constantly reminded to stay in their new place.

Whether or not all palatal expansion is sutural expansion, I have no idea. It is also certainly possible that the suture separates more toward the back of the palate than the front.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 9:17 pm
AlphaMinus
Estimable Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: AlphaMinus

So are you saying that during slow palate expansion, the suture opens and the two halves separate without a gap appearing? I'm not sure I understand how that works. Is it that the suture opens and separates more toward the back of the palate than the front? Otherwise it seems to me that diastema as a result of palate expansion would be an unavoidable consequence? 

Consider this: the structure and function of the occlusion determines where the preferred "home", or the point of balance, of each tooth is. In slow expansion, the incisors will return to their preferred occlusal positions faster than they are being pulled apart by the sutural separation. Due to the same mechanism, people often have to wear retainers after braces... the braces move the tooth/teeth to positions where the jaws would not prefer the teeth to reside at, thus in order to prevent relapse caused by the natural functioning of the occlusion, jaws & posture, the teeth have to be constantly reminded to stay in their new place.

Whether or not all palatal expansion is sutural expansion, I have no idea. It is also certainly possible that the suture separates more toward the back of the palate than the front.

 

Right so I guess what you are saying is that in slow expansion, the same forces are separating the incisors as happens with rapid expansion, but the teeth move back to their original position at a rate which does not allow a visible gap to appear. In rapid expansion however, the gap opens up faster than the teeth can return to their original position. I hope I've got that right. 

Does this mean that after rapid expansion, when a gap appears, the teeth would close that gap naturally over time without intervention?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 9:27 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: AlphaMinus
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: AlphaMinus

So are you saying that during slow palate expansion, the suture opens and the two halves separate without a gap appearing? I'm not sure I understand how that works. Is it that the suture opens and separates more toward the back of the palate than the front? Otherwise it seems to me that diastema as a result of palate expansion would be an unavoidable consequence? 

Consider this: the structure and function of the occlusion determines where the preferred "home", or the point of balance, of each tooth is. In slow expansion, the incisors will return to their preferred occlusal positions faster than they are being pulled apart by the sutural separation. Due to the same mechanism, people often have to wear retainers after braces... the braces move the tooth/teeth to positions where the jaws would not prefer the teeth to reside at, thus in order to prevent relapse caused by the natural functioning of the occlusion, jaws & posture, the teeth have to be constantly reminded to stay in their new place.

Whether or not all palatal expansion is sutural expansion, I have no idea. It is also certainly possible that the suture separates more toward the back of the palate than the front.

 

Right so I guess what you are saying is that in slow expansion, the same forces are separating the incisors as happens with rapid expansion, but the teeth move back to their original position at a rate which does not allow a visible gap to appear. In rapid expansion however, the gap opens up faster than the teeth can return to their original position. I hope I've got that right. 

Does this mean that after rapid expansion, when a gap appears, the teeth would close that gap naturally over time without intervention?

Yes, you get it. I think in rapid expansion the likelihood of the gap closing naturally would depend on the pre-existing occlusional situation and the extent of incisorial separation. It seems reasonable to assume that larger gaps are harder to close by natural means.

This post was modified 9 months ago by Progress
ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 9:38 pm
joshua95
New Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: AlphaMinus

So are you saying that during slow palate expansion, the suture opens and the two halves separate without a gap appearing? I'm not sure I understand how that works. Is it that the suture opens and separates more toward the back of the palate than the front? Otherwise it seems to me that diastema as a result of palate expansion would be an unavoidable consequence? 

Consider this: the structure and function of the occlusion determines where the preferred "home", or the point of balance, of each tooth is. In slow expansion, the incisors will return to their preferred occlusal positions faster than they are being pulled apart by the sutural separation. Due to the same mechanism, people often have to wear retainers after braces... the braces move the tooth/teeth to positions where the jaws would not prefer the teeth to reside at, thus in order to prevent relapse caused by the natural functioning of the occlusion, jaws & posture, the teeth have to be constantly reminded to stay in their new place.

Whether or not all palatal expansion is sutural expansion, I have no idea. It is also certainly possible that the suture separates more toward the back of the palate than the front.

 

 

With SME you won't have any skeletal expansion (separation of the maxillary midpalatal suture) this is  why you wont have a diastema.

Sutures start closing at the age of 14/15 starting from the back of the palate, so if you ll' expirience any skeletal expansion  (impossible) it will probably happen twords the front of the maxilla not towrds the back.

This is also why, for adultds, using RME appliance a surgical intervention is needed to reopen suture

Below a study from 2017, pretty recent

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5484271/

 

Some highlights

CONCLUSIONS:

Only intermolar angle showed significant difference between the two modalities of maxillary expansion with greater buccal tipping for RME. Also, RME produced skeletal maxillary expansion and SME did not. Both maxillary expansion modalities were efficient to promote transversal gain at dentoalveolar level. Sagittal and vertical measurements did not show differences between groups, but RME promoted a forward movement of the maxilla and backward rotation of the mandible.

CONCLUSION

Based on treatment using rapid and slow maxillary expansion, the following conclusions can be drawn:

1. Although both treatment modalities showed molar tipping, RME caused more molar sloping than SME

2. RME produced skeletal maxillary expansion and SME did not.

3. Both maxillary expansion modalities were efficient to promote increase in the transversal dimension at alveolar level but with no difference between groups.

4. RME promoted a forward movement of the maxilla and backward rotation of the mandible.

And we are talking about children mean age 8yo.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 10:40 pm
joshua95
New Member

@Mewer000 Don't worry if you are experiencing no results, its normal. No one probably had results. Even children need to wear appliance to get their palate expanded.

Maybe if you Hard Mew constantly 24h/Day (also when sleeping) you may achieve some dental expansion (lateral tipping of the maxillary posterior teeth).

For sure you will never experience any skeletal movement neither on your palate nor on your maxilla.

If
someone disagrees i invite him to back up his claim with a published scientific study not  with some short web articles.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/12/2018 10:56 pm
Mewer000
Active Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: AlphaMinus

I do not believe it is possible to expand the palate with the tongue, especially not in adults. I've read the most ridiculous claims from people saying "I gained 2mm in 3 months" and suchlike, but NONE of them report a gap appearing between the incisors, which must happen if the palate expands. The only IMW gains adults have achieved by mewing must come from tipping of the molars IMO. Either that, or they're kidding themselves that they measured accurately. Even with calipers, measurements are likely to be off as much as 1-2mm depending on the exact spots on the teeth that are measured from.

If ANY of these people had opened their suture and gained real palate width, they would be chomping at the bit to post before/after photos showing the necessary gap between their teeth. But they don't. And it's not as if they don't have a "before" pic to use - everyone has a past photo of them smiling somewhere, and neither lighting nor angle could fake a tooth gap. It's the easiest and most reliable before/after pic imaginable, yet nobody posts them to back up their claims of palate expansion by mewing.

If you're an adult who wants to expand the palate, you're going to have to do it with an appliance and/or surgery.

Diastema only occurs in rapid palatal expansion. Expanding "2mm in 3 months" would be way too slow to result in such gap. Based on @eddiemoney's and my own experiences, the rate of expansion from mewing can reach about 0.5-1 mm per month in adults.

@mewer000 In order to expand the palate, you need to generate sufficient lateral force. Note that an expander appliance generates a force that is vastly more intense than basic tongue posturing. This means that in order ot achieve palatal expansion, merely keeping the tongue in its place may not be enough. You need to push. In order to improve your technique to provide maximum amount of leverage, try to engage your palatoglossus and styloglossus muscles in a way that slides your tongue back and up, at the expense of the anterior tongue tongue moving away from incisive papilla. The anterior tongue will come to reside at near the border of soft/hard palate. Your posterior tongue should be comfortably lodged in between the structures of the throat and the ramus. From this place, try to widen your tongue laterally while pushing it upward. You should be able to push the sides of the tongue behind your backmost molars. You'll notice that the further back your tongue is, the more comfortably you'll be able to use it as a maxillary expander. If you can feel the pterygoid hamulus poking through the soft palate, try to push the body of the tongue firmly against these. The pterygoids are the lower wings of the sphenoid, a bone that articulates with almost every other bone of the skull. I'm fairly sure that most of the often claimed importance of posterior tongue comes from its ability to push against the sphenoid, which in turn causes the rest of the cranial bones to shift in response.

I have been thinking this as of lately, drawing the tongue back slightly in attempt to properly squeeze it between the extreme posterior molars. I will attempt to implement this in my new oral posture. I appreciate the response

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/01/2019 3:21 am
Forwardthinker
New Member

@joshua95

15.9 year old wouldn't experience any expansion either? Or is there still time?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/09/2019 10:07 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

@forwardthinker

its possible man but the more dedicated the better. dont let the stress of mewing affect your dialy life negatively dont obsess over it but if you want results put a lot of effort in adn youll notice change. take a picture of your pallete and measure the IMW start mewing then check again in a few weeks

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/09/2019 10:47 pm
Homba liked
printfactory
Active Member

@mewer000 any updates? Were you able to expand your IMW?

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/09/2019 6:55 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

@printfactory: Thumb pulling will increase your IMW instantly / overnight, you have to maintain a consistent habit to make the change permanent.

I'd be much farther now if I weren't lazy with my hard mewing and thumb pulling.

I went from a high-vaulted narrow palate to a more 'lowered' palate. My front and mid-palate have changed the most.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/09/2019 9:57 am
qwerty135
Active Member
Posted by: @greekgodbrody

@printfactory: Thumb pulling will increase your IMW instantly / overnight, you have to maintain a consistent habit to make the change permanent.

I'd be much farther now if I weren't lazy with my hard mewing and thumb pulling.

I went from a high-vaulted narrow palate to a more 'lowered' palate. My front and mid-palate have changed the most.

@GreekGodBrody How did you lower your vaulted palate, with thumb pulling or mewing? If thumbpulling, how was your technique?

 

Also, how much IMW increase did it take to see dramatic changes to your vaulted palate?

This post was modified 1 week ago by qwerty135
ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/09/2019 10:41 am
printfactory
Active Member

@greekgodbrody

Did you measure your starting IMW and your IMW now? If the IMW increases immediately with thumb-pulling isn´t it all just teeth that are tipping or are the sutures separating? Surely it can´t be bone remodelling when it happens more or less instantly. 

If it´s the sutures does it depend on the age of the person doing it? I´d guess older people will struggle since their sutures are fused to a higher degree.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/09/2019 1:26 pm
PolHolmes
Active Member

I think thumb pulling may be useless, as from what I've gathered. If you start slacking on it, you will pretty much lose everything that you worked for which is kind of shitty

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/09/2019 6:48 pm
Wellwellwell
Active Member

@polholmes

 

I have to sort of agree with this.

I have been mewing for about 7 months with effort and am sleeping with mouth closed.

I tried thumb pulling as well. I have not gained a single mm of expansion in my imw with precise measurements.

Most of the progression photos I see are people who post their profile. My profile can look extremely different depending on exact angle, lighting, and even the time of day. People must understand that these sort of photos are not reliable at all.

Only exact measurements or xrays are valid.

I don’t want to discredit mewing for adults yet. I will just say that it have not worked for me. I tried thumb pulling as well, didn't do much either.

If you want to get real expansion your beat way to do that imo is with an appliance that is proven to work.

- Age: 30
- Started soft mewing on 12 Feb 2019
- Started closed mouth chewing on 20 Apr 2019. Chews 12 regular sugarless gums 30-60 minutes a day (on and off)
- Started chintucking once a day for 4 minutes since Apr 1st 2019
- Sleeps in bed with pillow.
- Sleeping position: side, stomach.
- does not chintuck in bed.
- Sleep with mouth taped since Apr 1st 2019 (not sure if tongue touches roof).
- Staring IMW: 35 mm
- Current IMW: 35 mm

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/09/2019 6:44 am
mscottxy
Active Member

I call bullshit on both mewing and especially thumbpulling IN ADULTS. You just can't sustain the level of pressure needed to effect any bone changes. I wore plates for 2.5 years creating premolar spaces and had a spell in a palate expander. If I left either of these out for and hour they would be tight to put in, two hours I would have to wind back the screw. Thats how fast things relapse. 

Either start using plates with expansion screws or investigate MSE or surgery. 

https://reversedental.wordpress.com/photos-year-3/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/09/2019 12:50 am
Share:

As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

Face Development

Please Login or Register