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Newtons of force on hard palate trough various methods.  

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Meowxilla
Active Member

Hello.

Does anybody know how much force can tounge apply on maxilla when trying to hardmew.

How much force it can sustain troughout day?

How much force can we achieve if we get tounge stronger?

How much force does facepuller exert? I think usually it's around 5N starting up to 15N maybe?

Thumbpulling can achieve around 150-250N, depending on your strength.

 

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Posted : 08/08/2020 2:00 pm
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sinned
Estimable Member

How did you come to 150-250N of force for thumbpulling? Here's a study on maximum tongue protrusion force https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640594/ (males: 17.8 ± 3.7 N; females: 14.7 ± 3.5 N, maximum force the tongue can produce protruding 2-5 sec), I can't find any studies on how much force the back of the tongue can generate except for in a swallow but that's not the same as the maximum force it can produce. The tongue doesn't really fatigue but I doubt you could produce as much force as you could maximally for extended periods of time, it's doable with less than 100% force from the tongue but difficult, it seriously tests your mental sanity to keep the tongue pushing constantly on the roof of the mouth. I think what might be effective is doing many b***s to the wall bursts of tongue force and then maintaining a relatively lower amount of force the whole day, I don't think the tongue can get much stronger but you can probably increase your baseline mewing force that you hold throughout the day. Most facepullers use 500g of force I think.

 

edit: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-the-tongue-is-the-strongest-muscle-in-the-body/

"By sticking a pliable air-filled bulb into a subject’s mouth, scientists can measure the maximal pressure the tongue can exert on an object. This device, called an Iowa oral performance instrument, is placed on the tongue and subjects are asked to push it toward the roofs of their mouths as hard as they can. Scientists also use this bulb to measure endurance, or how long the tongue can hold a certain posture."

Gotta find studies that use this instrument.

edit 2: Found several studies, will have a read later, it seems like the tongue can be trained but the studies are on people with dysphagia, not sure how much you can meaningfully train the tongue as a healthy adult.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319467345_Maximal_strength_and_endurance_scores_of_the_tongue_lip_and_cheek_in_healthy_normal_Koreans

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288480088_Effect_of_tongue_strength_training_using_the_Iowa_Oral_Performance_Instrument_in_stroke_patients_with_dysphagia

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1991790220301276

 

 

Average maximal tongue strength for young male is 46.7 kpa, about 7 psi, endurance is on average 28.8 seconds. Maximal tongue strength is measured for 2 seconds, endurance is measured at 50% of maximal tongue strength. So realistically, to mew for the whole day, you'll be using like 5-10% of your maximal tongue force.

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Posted : 05/09/2020 1:22 am
Meowxilla
Active Member

@sinned

I appricieate effort but i said thumbpulling aka putting hands inside mouth and pulling sideways. I think it might be understatement 150N-250N, depends on your hand strenght, grip,ect...

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Posted : 05/09/2020 6:25 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

Does a greater force always translate to a greater maxillary movement over time? I think I saw some insight on that question somewhere in the forum but I can't find it right now.

I think that's the real question people should be asking. I'm interested in it myself as a regular hardmewer.

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Posted : 05/09/2020 9:44 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@azrael

Yes, I think the more force the faster the maxillary movement to a point. The issue is the tongue fatigues, and this explain why hardmewing is difficult. In the study I linked people were only able to hold 50% of their maximum force for 30 seconds, now how much of that is trainable and would it be different if they measured the back of the tongue instead of the anterior side? How much of their max tongue force would they need to be able to mew for the whole day? Personally, I notice that the tongue does fatigue and that would explain why hardmewing is difficult,  you have to take breaks from hardmewing however small or lower the force from the tongue, realistically the tongue is probably not producing that much force over the whole day even if you're dedicated to hardmewing. That's why anything but 100% dedication to hardmewing is probably ineffective, I looked up studies on how much force the tongue produces at rest or in a swallow which is the tropic mewing method and it's practically nothing. Thumbpulling might potentially be more effective just because you can produce a massive amount of force from your thumbs, it's just that it's unclear if very high forces for a shorter period of time are effective. There's really no studies on it, orthodontic appliances need to usually be worn 10 hours a day at least to be effective, I know 10-12 hours minimum is the recommendation for facepullers at least, 6 hours minimum for orthodontic movement of the teeth (not bone) but that's at a much lower force and no appliance or headgear could compare to pulling with 30+ pounds of force using your hands. Maybe you could thumbpull every time you feel the tongue start to fatigue, that could potentially be effective.

edit: https://iopimedical.com/normal-values/

This is data for the strength of the back of the tongue, average is around 60 kpa which nearly 9 psi, so it seems the back of the tongue is stronger than the anterior which is to be expected, maybe push with the back of the tongue for most of the day for lateral growth and take breaks thumbpulling forward for forward growth?

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Posted : 05/09/2020 1:45 pm