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I started using my expander 3 weeks ago, here are my experiences so far, if anyone's interested:
I use the Schwartz appliance and I turn the key every 2 or 3 days. Now I'm at 2,5 millimeters.
My suture split on the very first day of wearing the expander, so now there's a dark line on my upper palate. (Does that mean that I'm making mainly palatal expansion?)
My front teeth have developed a gap and I breathe a lot better already.
My overjet has gotten smaller because the expansion allowed my mandible to move forward. But now it feels kinda uncomfortable in resting position, like I was jutting it all the time.
My deepbite is still the same and my lower jaw didn't expand.
I am really scared of root resorbtion after reading a few horror stories. I decided that if my gums get swollen or I feel pain I'll stop the expansion.
Does anyone know how much can the Schwartz appliance expand?
My suture split on the very first day of wearing the expander, so now there's a dark line on my upper palate.
Are there any other reasons besides the dark line and a teeth gap appearing that convince you that the suture had split? Have you felt any physical sensations, like the release of pressure, or heard any cracking noises?
I'm assuming that you've been mewing for a while before trying the expander, so I'm curious why the device managed to split the suture on day 1, while focusing on tongue posture alone hasn't achieved that affect in months (or longer?). Were you able to keep the entire tongue plastered to the palate for long periods of time, or did you struggle with that? I suspect it has to do with precision and consistency.
I can feel that there's a gap with my tongue, so I'm pretty sure that the suture is split. But it has happened with me before, around a year ago, when I was expecting with thumb pulling. I guess my sutures weren't fully fused, so the expander was able to split them.
I was only soft mewing and my tongue couldn't fit into my palate, maybe that's why
I can feel that there's a gap with my tongue, so I'm pretty sure that the suture is split. But it has happened with me before, around a year ago, when I was expecting with thumb pulling. I guess my sutures weren't fully fused, so the expander was able to split them.
I was only soft mewing and my tongue couldn't fit into my palate, maybe that's why
Hey man, I split my suture as well (without an appliance, though) so would you mind answering a few questions?
Did your cheekbone projection (anterior or lateral) increase? Any change in the ogee curve similar to Ronald Ead's case?
Does the dark line (split) on your palate stay the same size or does it change (increase or decrease)?
I can feel that there's a gap with my tongue, so I'm pretty sure that the suture is split. But it has happened with me before, around a year ago, when I was expecting with thumb pulling. I guess my sutures weren't fully fused, so the expander was able to split them.
I was only soft mewing and my tongue couldn't fit into my palate, maybe that's why
Hey man, I split my suture as well (without an appliance, though) so would you mind answering a few questions?
Did your cheekbone projection (anterior or lateral) increase? Any change in the ogee curve similar to Ronald Ead's case?
Does the dark line (split) on your palate stay the same size or does it change (increase or decrease)?
Did you observe any hollowing in your cheeks?
What is even a suture split? I have no idea, is it the line in the middle of your palate with a hole in it?
I think it's too early to tell, but I'm convinced that my cheekbones are more visible. I haven't expanded enough imo to have any drastic changes. My cheeks aren't hollow at all, but this is probably because of my bodyfat%
The gap seems to stay the same size, but there are two light-pinkish lines next to it (one on each side) that weren't here before. Also interestingly the gap between my two front teeth is closing.
I think it's too early to tell, but I'm convinced that my cheekbones are more visible. I haven't expanded enough imo to have any drastic changes. My cheeks aren't hollow at all, but this is probably because of my bodyfat%
The gap seems to stay the same size, but there are two light-pinkish lines next to it (one on each side) that weren't here before. Also interestingly the gap between my two front teeth is closing.
Thank you for your response, I've been having some theories about hollow cheeks and the suture split and your answers provided confirmation that I was on the right track. Also, are you swallowing properly?
Did you measure your IMW before using the expander, btw? If so, how many milimeters have you expanded so far (I assume you've been wearing the expander for a month?)?
I'd like to post a pic of my palate if that's ok. Seeing Azrael's pic of his suture split got me thinking of the little "gutter" I feel with my tongue right before my soft palate starts. I wonder if that's normal or it's a type of suture split (I googled normal palate photos and could not see anything similar)
I'd like to post a pic of my palate if that's ok. Seeing Azrael's pic of his suture split got me thinking of the little "gutter" I feel with my tongue right before my soft palate starts. I wonder if that's normal or it's a type of suture split (I googled normal palate photos and could not see anything similar)
M.
The "gutter" you mentioned was the exact reason why I took a pic of my palate. And there was the split as I expected. I am sure it'll be the same for you.
Taking a pic of your own palate happens to be a lot more challenging that I initially thought. I was wondering whether that "gutter" could be something that has always been there and got unnoticed by not exploring my palate in the past as much as I've done recently. But looking at the pic it might really be a suture split. The longest bit on the bottom is really deep, hence the gutter name. However before looking at the pic I couldn't tell the other "dots" of the split were there just by touching with the tongue
Taking a pic of your own palate happens to be a lot more challenging that I initially thought. I was wondering whether that "gutter" could be something that has always been there and got unnoticed by not exploring my palate in the past as much as I've done recently. But looking at the pic it might really be a suture split. The longest bit on the bottom is really deep, hence the gutter name. However before looking at the pic I couldn't tell the other "dots" of the split were there just by touching with the tongue
This is the hard palate, right? The split is very interesting since it looks a bit different from mine. It looks like it's closing or opening up gradually.
Also reminds me of the "whitish" line @Elwynn and @Oatmeal asked about.
@moemoe I agree with @azrael that this looks like a partially closed suture. There exist a basic classification method for the mid-palatal suture that may give more insight into your situation:
Haha, nice one chief, didn't read the Redditor's name. Once your suture split, did you notice an immediate increase in your zygomatic area? Or anything in particular?
Haha, nice one chief, didn't read the Redditor's name. Once your suture split, did you notice an immediate increase in your zygomatic area? Or anything in particular?
😄
And no, I didn't see any immediate changes on my face. It's only recently that I've started to notice slight hollowing of my cheeks. It could probably be because of zygomatic expansion (which is possible with palatal expansion as far as I know) or swallowing properly for the past three months. I am yet to see any major facial or skeletal improvements, however.
Maybe the white line on my maxilla means that the suture isnt opened. Interestingly enough when I was 16 years old and discovered mewing for the first time. I pushed as hard as I could forwards and upwards on the incisive papilla and within weeks I had a diastema. Unfortunately I had braces at the time and my orthodontist wasnt happy and tightened the braces to close the gap. I no longer push hard on the incisive papilla because it requires too much effort and concentration. I just soft mew atm
Maybe the white line on my maxilla means that the suture isnt opened. Interestingly enough when I was 16 years old and discovered mewing for the first time. I pushed as hard as I could forwards and upwards on the incisive papilla and within weeks I had a diastema. Unfortunately I had braces at the time and my orthodontist wasnt happy and tightened the braces to close the gap. I no longer push hard on the incisive papilla because it requires too much effort and concentration. I just soft mew atm
I suspect that pushing on the incisive papilla could be optimal for sutural separation due to how the circummaxillary 'hinges' are positioned. Pushing on the papilla encourages separation of the maxillary halves by opening up forward and to the sides, kind of like a bud blossoming into a flower. Visualized like this, the papilla could provide more effective leverage than pushing sideways or upwards with the body of the tongue.
@Azrael stated that during his 3 months of mewing, he just mewed on the front of the palette for the first 2.5 months. If you are right, then this could explain we he managed to split his suture so quickly.
I wonder what would of happened if I kept at the technique my palate could of been much wider by now. Another reason why I stopped is because Mew said that engaging the posterior third was the most important so I focused on that.
Maybe the white line on my maxilla means that the suture isnt opened. Interestingly enough when I was 16 years old and discovered mewing for the first time. I pushed as hard as I could forwards and upwards on the incisive papilla and within weeks I had a diastema. Unfortunately I had braces at the time and my orthodontist wasnt happy and tightened the braces to close the gap. I no longer push hard on the incisive papilla because it requires too much effort and concentration. I just soft mew atm
Wait, you had braces and you still managed to form a diastema with hard mewing? Is that even possible? That must have been some force to overcome the constant force from the braces.
I was 16 at the time and recently discovered CFD and was unhappy that I had it. Thats why I was motivated to mew that much. The technique was suction the tongue to the roof of the mouth, teeth in light contact and push really hard with the front of the tongue in a chin tuck. Nowadays my mewing technique is totally different. Its tongue ballooning, teeth not in contact and not pushing too hard. Unfortunately the old technique did cause a lot of headaches and hypertrophy of the digastric muscles. I might bring the technique back at some point.
I wonder what would of happened if I kept at the technique my palate could of been much wider by now. Another reason why I stopped is because Mew said that engaging the posterior third was the most important so I focused on that.
@Azrael stated that during his 3 months of mewing, he just mewed on the front of the palette for the first 2.5 months. If you are right, then this could explain we he managed to split his suture so quickly.
Interesting. Along the years I have also read a few of users on Reddit assert that they had been making progress until they stopped focusing on the papilla so much in favor of the posterior tongue, in order to align their technique with the Mews' teachings. One or two felt that their face had worsened after the switch, even in comparison to where they began from.
luckily its gone now but that probably means my tongue got weaker
Or, your technique got better (which I think is what happened).
Helmutstrebl said he had the same thing initially since he was engaging the tip and the middle third excessively. After learning to engage the posterior third more, he was able to reduce it as well.
Maybe the white line on my maxilla means that the suture isnt opened. Interestingly enough when I was 16 years old and discovered mewing for the first time. I pushed as hard as I could forwards and upwards on the incisive papilla and within weeks I had a diastema. Unfortunately I had braces at the time and my orthodontist wasnt happy and tightened the braces to close the gap. I no longer push hard on the incisive papilla because it requires too much effort and concentration. I just soft mew atm
I suspect that pushing on the incisive papilla could be optimal for sutural separation due to how the circummaxillary 'hinges' are positioned. Pushing on the papilla encourages separation of the maxillary halves by opening up forward and to the sides, kind of like a bud blossoming into a flower. Visualized like this, the papilla could provide more effective leverage than pushing sideways or upwards with the body of the tongue.
I keep hearing pops and cracks from the right side of my face (this has been happening for quite some time now) and I wonder if it's the suture circled in green, or something going on in the ear.
I keep hearing pops and cracks from the right side of my face (this has been happening for quite some time now) and I wonder if it's the suture circled in green, or something going on in the ear.
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The cheekbone on that side of my face (my right) is higher than my left too, since I used to chew from my left.
Along the years I have also read a few of users on Reddit assert that they had been making progress until they stopped focusing on the papilla so much in favor of the posterior tongue, in order to align their technique with the Mews' teachings. One or two felt that their face had worsened after the switch, even in comparison to where they began from.
That seems very strange. I can’t imagine mewing with the posterior third without engaging the rest of the tongue. Assuming they didn’t do something weird like keeping the tip at the bottom of the mouth, the worst that happened was that their progress came to a halt.
The idea of focusing on the papilla is intriguing, however. Both my girlfriend, mother and friend, who each of them has excellent facial growth, says they just rest their tip of the tongue at the incisive papilla. And just today I happened to ask a stranger with very good growth where he rested his tongue, just to get the same answer. Of course, one explanation could be that the tip is the part of the tongue which we are the most aware off. For a person who has had proper tongue posterior their whole life and sustains it naturally, he or she might not realise what they are doing. When they are asked to think about their tongue, which they never think about otherwise, they naturally think of the tip without paying attention to the rest of their tongue. This is a very common phenomena among prodigy musicians, who may be able to play marvellously but have no clue when it comes to explaining how they do what they do.
It is still worth to ask the question: Is the importance of the tip and incisive papilla being overlooked? Assuming the posterior third still is important, it is natural that we do put emphasis on engaging it, since this is where most peoples tongue posture are lacking. But what if the posterior third is currently getting more attention than it deserves? For someone who already has gained sufficient control over it, it might be time to focus on other parts of the tongue and mouth. In your view @Progress, how should the incisive papilla should be approached? Pushed, as when one is hard mewing?
Why would this be the explanation for your asymmetry? I think my left check is a little bit more pronounced than my right, so I am curious to know more about this.
@loliboly For a lot of those who had orthodontic treatment, their lack of forward growth was never resolved and further impeded with braces/headgear, etc.. pushing the face backwards when it was already imperfect before treatment. Why focus on the back of the tongue to fix a problem that, in spite of being across the whole maxilla, was unquestionably damaged at the front of the face? If there's a time to tell people to get the posterior tongue up, I'd assume it would work when there's first room for it to lay flat without getting bunched up and compromised to fit. Even if you don't feel like there's lack of forward room, more would be better. Helmutsrebl is cited as proof of the posterior third being important, although he already looked great before starting. So many people say things to the effect of "our bodies must be smart enough to allow the skull to remodel to its proper position". I know the process is more complicated than this, but on an intuitive level, shouldn't that imply that the body would want people to get some progress from using the front of their tongue that is easily available to start pushing with...or does the vastly intelligent body only respond with a technique that requires constant determined focus/strength while unable to breathe due to choking on the back of the tongue? That makes it sound like the force would get resisted if it's being applied when in such a stressed state. With possible issues such as vaulted palates to contend with, the idea of the back of the tongue causing rotation sounds even more difficult to attain unless the face is in a good enough position to begin with.
The cheekbone on that side of my face (my right) is higher than my left too, since I used to chew from my left.
Why would this be the explanation for your asymmetry? I think my left check is a little bit more pronounced than my right, so I am curious to know more about this.
I have seen quite a few people online (even one or two from this forum) complain of this particular asymmetry of cheekbones due to chewing mostly from one side.
My theory is that overuse of the masseter of one side over time (in my case, probably decades?) drags the zygomatic arch downwards since the origin points of the outer and the inner masseter muscles are in there.
Also why I don't advocate excessive chewing in any form since most people favor one side when chewing. However, I still haven't read through Progress's masseter and temporalis pattern thread yet, so my current ideas are subject to change in the future.
I see. Thank you for responding. I have yet to finish the thread you mentioned, but it seem to be somewhat in line with @Progress sentiment in the OP, if I understood it correctly. Will read up and get back!
Interesting. Along the years I have also read a few of users on Reddit assert that they had been making progress until they stopped focusing on the papilla so much in favor of the posterior tongue, in order to align their technique with the Mews' teachings. One or two felt that their face had worsened after the switch, even in comparison to where they began from.
I have noticed slight improvement in my cheekbones with tongue ballooning the molars. The back of my palate is much wider now even without the suture spilt. I don’t remember feeling any line on my hard palate when I had the diastema though.
Thank you for replying so soon Azrael. I don't think any separation has happened since I had this split for a long time, as far as I remember at least. What I'm worried about is that after seeing the Pic with the stages of the sutures that @Progress posted, I think that maybe my suture is fusing from the back and to tell the truth I'm kind of panicking right now 😨
What I'm worried about is that after seeing the Pic with the stages of the sutures that @Progress posted, I think that maybe my suture is fusing from the back and to tell the truth I'm kind of panicking right now
I don't think there's anything to worry or panic about. Most people don't even split their suture and they still make good progress. AstroSky told me recently that he split it last year and he was making steady progress even before that. Even Jamo formed a diastema (probably from a split as well) after his one year progress iirc. And we don't even know if helmutstrebl split his suture since he didn't talk about it and nobody asked him.
In my opinion, the split is just one indicator of change, nothing more, nothing less.
How long have you been mewing? And how long have you had this split (at this size?)?
I've been soft mewing since December 2018 and I don't think I have made any progress. That's why I'm gonna start hardmewing and continue fixing my posture. As for the split I really have no idea. I never had a "crack" or something similar happening to my palate though.
I don't think there's anything to worry or panic about. Most people don't even split their suture and they still make good progress. AstroSky told me recently that he split it last year and he was making steady progress even before that. Even Jamo formed a diastema (probably from a split as well) after his one year progress iirc. And we don't even know if helmutstrebl split his suture since he didn't talk about it and nobody asked him.
In my opinion, the split is just one indicator of change, nothing more, nothing less.
I just went and checked some of Astro's videos which were posted around a year ago (before his split) and indeed his progress was steady. His cheekbones are pronounced, he has hollow cheeks, squarish jaw, "hunter" eyes etc. His face after the split doesn't seem to have changed drastically or anything. Also, I think he achieved most of his progress after his 19 years of age. I remember a pick of him in which his face was really flat at that time. Now about the split, from what I have seen in this site some people believe that there is a limit to how much the palate can expand just with bone remodeling. For example, my palate is 33 to 34 millimeters and my tongue's width while spreaded is 50 millimeters (your tounge's width is the supposed maximum size that your palate should have) and I just don't know if I will be able to achieve that optimal width. As for helmutstrebl someone must ask him if he has split his suture as soon as possible! All in all thank you, I feel a bit better now and I just hope my suture in the back hasn't started to fuse yet. I mean come on I'm still 20... 🙄
I've been soft mewing since December 2018 and I don't think I have made any progress. That's why I'm gonna start hardmewing and continue fixing my posture. As for the split I really have no idea. I never had a "crack" or something similar happening to my palate though.
Did you soft mew during that time? Adults rarely see progress with soft mewing from what I've seen.
I didn't hear any crack, either. I just felt it with my tongue tip one day and that's how I realized.
Now about the split, from what I have seen in this site some people believe that there is a limit to how much the palate can expand just with bone remodeling. For example, my palate is 33 to 34 millimeters and my tongue's width while spreaded is 50 millimeters (your tounge's width is the supposed maximum size that your palate should have) and I just don't know if I will be able to achieve that optimal width.
Yeah, the amount of expansion is apparently determined by the zygomatic buttress, can't recall where I read that though. My IMW was 40mm the last time I checked and I seem to have a 10-11 tooth smile and I'm content with it since I have space for my tongue. I don't want any more teeth to show either since I don't like the super wide sharky smile, the reason I like expansion is because it could help in projecting your cheekbones more laterally (like how Ronald Ead did with his MSE).
As for your optimal width, I'm sure you will achieve it over the next few months/years with hard mewing.
For example, my palate is 33 to 34 millimeters and my tongue's width while spreaded is 50 millimeters (your tounge's width is the supposed maximum size that your palate should have) and I just don't know if I will be able to achieve that optimal width.
As for your optimal width, I'm sure you will achieve it over the next few months/years with hard mewing.
@Azrael I also have a 33mm palette and 50mm tongue width. Do you think I can increase my IMW to 50 within months/years?
For example, my palate is 33 to 34 millimeters and my tongue's width while spreaded is 50 millimeters (your tounge's width is the supposed maximum size that your palate should have) and I just don't know if I will be able to achieve that optimal width.
As for your optimal width, I'm sure you will achieve it over the next few months/years with hard mewing.
@Azrael I also have a 33mm palette and 50mm tongue width. Do you think I can increase my IMW to 50 within months/years?
By optimal width, I meant the amount of expansion àllowed by the zygomatic buttress. I'm not knowledgeable enough to predict if one's palatal width will one day equal his tongue's width or not.
However, as auxiliary pointed out recently in a thread, Mike Mew has apparently misinterpreted the palatal width of Aborigines as 50-something millimeters when it was really 40s.
I don’t think Astro’s palate will get much more expansion. From his recent videos it looks like his tongue sits pretty well in it already, which at the end of the day is the purpose of mewing.
