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"Mike you genius!!!! Thanks, another stone in the wall that we are building here. #mikemew" Sleeping on the floor.

Gregory
Eminent Member

Tl;dr In the past, Mike Mew has advocated that people need to sleep on harder surfaces. Harder mattresses, or more. One person notes that two different cases of Brad Pitt sleeping on a floor is correlated to his good development, good looks.  Sleeping on a floor may be best for results.  What say you? I say yes on principle.  Discuss.

I've been experimenting with sleeping on the floor. With a pillow and then without a pillow for three, four days now. 
Is it mad? Is this madness? What say you?
Some of you have discussed removing the pillow from the equation.  I'm adding the bed/removal of the bed into the conversation.
Affirm/Re-affirm for me please your: Sleeping habit in regards to whether you use a mattress (soft / very firm mattress), whether you use a pillow, and your beliefs on how this interrelates with CFD/Orthotropics.
OR just talk about your opinions on this concept relating to skull development.

Background:
Now there are a number of threads, videos, etc wherein people are talking about one of these things:
the way that soft mattresses has negatively impacted posture/the body,
the recommendation for harder sleeping mattresses/surface on the road to recovery,
the way pillows affect headposture and development.

Conclusion: modern lifestyle aspects of our sleep arrangements do contribute (note i didnt say cause) CFD. 

on that note
The comment from Mike Jones references interviews which talks about how when Brad Pitt was in his 20's he was sleeping on the floor whilst starting out as an actor. Mike Jones:
https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-news/729047/Brad-Pitt-interview-new-movie-Allied-talks-about-overcoming-tough-times-values
Here is an article you might like. I'm starting to think there is a direct correlation. Slowly I'm finding out how much Brad really slept on the floor, "I had a sheet and a blanket and that is how I lived and slept – on the floor – for 18 months. I did not mind at the time." (Note; he doesn't mention a pillow). After his divorce he slept on the floor at a friend's he stated in one article, and here is a video showing the effects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiCmkoXG7ds

Mew has done a video in the past about the transformation of Brad Pitt over the years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mXsDBaXRyQ here it is

Okay yes.  Apparently Brad Pitt spent his first 18 months in los angeles sleeping on a floor. Other articles attested to the same thing.  Supposedly he did so again recently. People are saying Brad Pitt post-6 weeks sleeping on the floor was looking better than he had in years.  Brad Pitt that had been sleeping on the floor for 18 months in his 20s was also remarkably developed. 

Context can be found in the comments of this video

Quote
Topic starter Posted : 23/02/2018 7:36 pm
TGW liked
sinned
Estimable Member

I think either no pillow or a very light cushion is best. A pillow mimics a sort of forward head posture while laying flat against the floor allows you to have very good head posture. I think you might be interested in reading this  https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/notes-from-yesteryear/100-years-before-weston-price/

Title: 100 Years Before Weston Price

It talks about the practices of Native Americans in relation to their posture, how they sleep, nose/mouth breathing. etc. Very interesting.

 

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Posted : 23/02/2018 9:57 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

I think someone on the forum recommended this video, but I'm sorry I can't remember who:

https://youtu.be/OTktJvum7cs

Anyway, it got me thinking that until I'm able to correct my rounded shoulders/forward head posture/kyphosis I shouldn't totally abandon my pillow. Because, unless I'm consciously resisting it, when lying flat without a pillow, my upper back is angled forward enough that putting my head back on the bed extends my neck, taking away all of my chin tuck, and there is a tendency for my teeth to part, or even for my mouth to open (as seen at around 4:30 in this video). If my primary goal is to avoid bad oral posture during sleep, I currently need some head support. I think this is also one of the reason that Buteyko advises against sleeping on your back. So you might be right that we should ultimately aspire to sleep flat on our backs on semi-hard surfaces, but I think it is a bad idea to quit your pillow cold turkey. I have stepped down to a lower-profile pillow. Others suggested using a towel instead that can be folded to adjust the height.

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Posted : 23/02/2018 10:10 pm
Angelina liked
Gregory
Eminent Member

"All Savage infants amongst the various Native Tribes of America, are reared in cribs (or cradles) with the back lashed to a straight board; and by the aid of a circular, concave cushion placed under the head, the head is bowed a little forward when they sleep, which prevents the mouth from falling open; thus establishing the early habit of breathing through the nostrils. . . I was soon made to understand, both by their women and their Medicine Men, that it was done to insure their good looks, and prolong their lives.”"
I hadn't seen this one!  Thanks.
Going through the article now.  Emphasis has been placed on the rarity of malocclusion, defects, problems in the native populations. 

Re: pillow.  I went no pillow the first night -- and i got [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]-poor sleep, and decided to use the pillow the other three nights.  My body is sore when I wake up, yet I sleep decently.  Tired in the mornings? Somewhat yes. It isn't perfect as is; however, this is indeed an experiment of sorts. 
Note: I don't sleep on my back. 

I ended up using the pillow, but was considering the benefit of giving it up cold turkey.
Despite my efforts, my shoulders arent optimal -- not yet.  Still some kyphosis i fear.  I am glad you offered the contrasting opinion!

I'm interested in other perspectives; I hope others will add to the dialogue.  Adjusting even the most basics -- like the way we eat, breathe, and sleep are big in this journey.  And sleep/how we sleep/all forms of posture whilst asleep is one of the most important conscious/unconscious aspects of orthotropics imo. 

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Topic starter Posted : 23/02/2018 11:25 pm
Angelina
Active Member

i've been sleeping with a very thin pillow for about a month and i continue to do so until i wont need a pillow at all, i can see and feel its easier for me now to keep correct upright posture. this guy on the video has helped me a lot  https://youtu.be/OTktJvum7cs

and there's also another "hunchback video" of him with theraband exersice which i do 2-3 times per day and im sure it helps greatly:  hunchback ex

i call it 'resistance chin tuck' 🙂

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Posted : 24/02/2018 5:34 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: madeira09

i've been sleeping with a very thin pillow for about a month and i continue to do so until i wont need a pillow at all, i can see and feel its easier for me now to keep correct upright posture. this guy on the video has helped me a lot  https://youtu.be/OTktJvum7cs

and there's also another "hunchback video" of him with theraband exersice which i do 2-3 times per day and im sure it helps greatly:  hunchback ex

i call it 'resistance chin tuck' 🙂

Posted by: Apollo

I think someone on the forum recommended this video, but I'm sorry I can't remember who:

https://youtu.be/OTktJvum7cs

So it must have been Madeira who directed me to that video before. I found it helpful. Thanks again!

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Posted : 24/02/2018 11:33 am
Angelina liked
Johan Liebert
Active Member

I started sleeping on my back without a pillow 1 month ago and is doing wonders for me, I seem to have gotten larger but I suppose is related to posture which has improved significantly. I have long hair, so when I nap in the afternoon I sleep on my back with a high ponytail, this makes my head tilt slightly downwards and makes pressure on the back of it, I mew hard until I fall sleep, maybe some of you can mimic the ponytail with a rolled small towel or something..  

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Posted : 24/02/2018 2:08 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

Yeah this is something that I have been looking into for a very long time. I've been sleeping on hard surfaces for over five years now and I recommend it highly.

In some Asian cultures it is believed that babies must be put to sleep on their backs so that they develop a fuller face which leads to prosperity in adult life. So there is definitely some link between sleeping posture and face development. Anyways, you can usually you can see signs of this by checking the back of their heads. They are usually flat because the parents put their heads on a very hard surface for sleeping.

Beyond this, there seems to be some interesting history when it comes to how people used to sleep before us. There's not much information about it on the internet though sadly. The link I found says that pillows used to even be BANNED by King Henry VIII of England. Can't find a real source for that though. But check out his facial development.

Now as far as what we can do, I would say that if you can sleep on your back without issue, then it's probably the best position to sleep in. This requires that you can keep your tongue up all night long though. You should use a pillow (or a ponytail apparently) the helps you stay in a McKenzie tuck throughout the entire night as this will keep your airway open and your jaws together. I usually just use a folded up towel or sheet to do this.

One thing to note is that if your sleeping surface is too hard it can force your spine out of alignment. You have to find something that is just right.

I made huge gains in my facial aesthetics when I started sleeping on my back. This was years ago before I knew about mewing and stuff. So yeah, I agree with the premise of the thread. Right now I switch between side and back sleeping. I don't think side sleeping is as good as back sleeping though but as long as you keep your head posture correct it's not that bad.

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Posted : 24/02/2018 3:45 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

It's likely that sleeping on sufficiently hard and flat surface allows/encourages the body to unwind in a way that sleeping in an overly comfy bed does not. Like others have said, soft matresses encourage kyphotic posture due to how naturally uneven and asymmetric the distribution of weight within the human body is. Hard floor makes this worry meaningless: all weight that would be pushing towards the floor gets pushed back up by an identical amount, because the floor does not give in like the bed does. This allows the muscles to ease themselves along the floor, night by night molding the musculature to assume straight vertical form.

The neurocranial shifts and cracks many have experienced may be something that should ideally happen during your sleep when the neck can relax out of any neuromuscular tension, while still being passively stretched by the tension caused between gravity and floor. 

I personally sleep in a comfy bed and on my side because I have found no way to sleep on back without waking up to snoring or choking, but whenever sleeping on back becomes possible I will get on the floor.

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Posted : 24/02/2018 3:48 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

You might find this article interesting:

Instinctive Sleeping and Resting Postures: An Antrhropological and Zoological Approach to Treatment of Low Back and Joint Pain https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119282/pdf/1616.pdf

Allixa mentioned the use of pillows to keep insects out of the ears and hair while lying on the ground. The author of this article talks about positions that protect the genitals from insects, so he might be a little eccentric.

The Gokhale Stretch-Lying method to decompress the spine is also worth looking into:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCtF9_DuzMU

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Posted : 24/02/2018 4:12 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Just my opinion re: baby head shape but I would think that Asian baby would be diagnosed with flat head syndrome, which is so easy to develop, especially as parents are told to place their baby to sleep on a hard mattress with no pillow. My baby, who is now almost 2, was diagnosed with flat head syndrome in her first month of life, and had a skull that was similarly shaped to the Asian baby pictured above. Was told the cause is unknown, but if I had to wager a guess I'd say it had something to do with being breastfed (said to make bones and cartilage more malleable) having a 99th percentile-sized head whilst being put to sleep on her back on a hard mattress with no pillow. How we dealt with it was going to physio and simply making a donut-shaped support (like how Natives did, as per a poster noted above) for her head out of a receiving blanket, a midwife tip, though considered controversial as pillows and blanket use are strongly discouraged at that age. Otherwise you wait until the baby is about 4 months old to get them fitted for a head shaping helmet that costs about 2-5k and is typically not covered by insurance. The folded receiving blanket yielded excellent results immediately and my daughter now sleeps with no pillow and has maintained a McKenzie chin tuck and nasal breathing since birth. She has a wide Roman-arched shaped palate with room for all her baby teeth. I also held her a lot, avoided placing her on her back (minimal car trips, no pram use, head supported for diaper changes) and placed her on her stomach for an hour a day until she put herself on her stomach at 1.5 months old (which she did herself about 8 hours a day). I think the helmets yield quite poor results and seem annoying, though it's probably better than having flat head syndrome. Very sad, but in my community I've seen just 2 other young toddlers other than my daughter, out of dozens, that appeared to be both breastfed (that is to say, good forward and horizontal growth) and without flat head syndrome.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 24/02/2018 6:07 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Sleeping on a hard surface is awesome, but depending on your posture, will require some transitioning.

Since last May I moved from sleeping on a mattress plus a topper with 2 stacked pillows to now sleeping on a slim topper and a half pillow. I had all the postural disorders related to the spine including forward head posture, hunch back, rounded shoulders, and forward pelvic tilt. My head was forward by a whopping 10cm (4"). That was beyond sever, but now I am down to around 1-2cm.

Obviously, this transition did not happen overnight. In fact, it took 9 months and still counting. Nor did my posture improve just from changing sleep position only. I developed a full training program to address all the tight and weak muscles according to the cross syndrome premise. I also eliminated almost all daily causes of poor posture including sitting on the computer in a poor position or for too long, etc. For example, I use a boom arm to suspend my tablet over the bed and do all my reading lying down. 

But going back to sleeping on a hard surface, the first thing I changed in my position was reducing the number of pillows to 1. Next I replaced it with a very slim pillow and soon after I replaced my old mattress plus topper with a slimmer and firmer topper only. Now I am adapting to sleeping on a half pillow. I say “half” because I bought the slimmest pillow I could find and opened it from the side and reduced it's filling by a little under half and then stitched it. I also prop my knees with a thick pillow and place my arms over a thin pillow on my chest sometimes. This position is comfortable enough for me to stay in it all night long without moving.

It was not easy making this transition. I spent countless sleepless nights in between trying to figure out what’s going on and tweaking my position accordingly. The results were, however, rewarding. Now I sleep comfortably and never get out from bed with poorer posture than when I went in. This was defiantly not the case before when I slept on soft and thick mattress and pillows.

My advice to anyone is to start in steps.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 24/02/2018 10:58 pm
madeira09
New Member

Last night was the first night i tried to sleep on the floor and without a pillow, it was so uncomfortable i almost got no sleep, but that night i realized something, all this time i thought that i have a relatively normal tongue space (34-35 between 6th molars and wider between 7ths) and maybe that my tonguw isnt so big or i hoped so but while lying on my back without anything under my head i probsbly allowed the back of my tongue farther back and it almost didnt fit, i felt great pressure at my molars and there was this intense sensation of choking, i realized that i still have a looong way to go. i dont know why im writing this maybe you guys already know this but now i know for sure that until we dont correct out posture (by saying 'correct' i mean to make it reaaaally perfect) we cant make improvements we expect to make. i dont know why i havent had this sensation before when doing the chin tuck exercise, i can only feel it while lying the way i described and this way the pressure at molars is strongest. idk but i think it is the best way to expand the arch.. now im trying to remember this head and tongue position and hold it like this all day long but it is really hard. although i knew we have to corect our posure etc, for me to actually feel this was a discovery, maybe for some of you it would be helpful

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Posted : 27/02/2018 3:08 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Just my opinion re: baby head shape but I would think that Asian baby would be diagnosed with flat head syndrome, which is so easy to develop, especially as parents are told to place their baby to sleep on a hard mattress with no pillow. My baby, who is now almost 2, was diagnosed with flat head syndrome in her first month of life, and had a skull that was similarly shaped to the Asian baby pictured above. Was told the cause is unknown, but if I had to wager a guess I'd say it had something to do with being breastfed (said to make bones and cartilage more malleable) having a 99th percentile-sized head whilst being put to sleep on her back on a hard mattress with no pillow. How we dealt with it was going to physio and simply making a donut-shaped support (like how Natives did, as per a poster noted above) for her head out of a receiving blanket, a midwife tip, though considered controversial as pillows and blanket use are strongly discouraged at that age. Otherwise you wait until the baby is about 4 months old to get them fitted for a head shaping helmet that costs about 2-5k and is typically not covered by insurance. The folded receiving blanket yielded excellent results immediately and my daughter now sleeps with no pillow and has maintained a McKenzie chin tuck and nasal breathing since birth. She has a wide Roman-arched shaped palate with room for all her baby teeth. I also held her a lot, avoided placing her on her back (minimal car trips, no pram use, head supported for diaper changes) and placed her on her stomach for an hour a day until she put herself on her stomach at 1.5 months old (which she did herself about 8 hours a day). I think the helmets yield quite poor results and seem annoying, though it's probably better than having flat head syndrome. Very sad, but in my community I've seen just 2 other young toddlers other than my daughter, out of dozens, that appeared to be both breastfed (that is to say, good forward and horizontal growth) and without flat head syndrome.

@greensmoothies, those are some very interesting observations. So the donut pillow helped fix her head shape at first but then you stopped using it? And the head shape didn't change again? Do you think you'll keep her away from pillows forever then?

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Posted : 28/02/2018 6:57 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Allixa
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Just my opinion re: baby head shape but I would think that Asian baby would be diagnosed with flat head syndrome, which is so easy to develop, especially as parents are told to place their baby to sleep on a hard mattress with no pillow. My baby, who is now almost 2, was diagnosed with flat head syndrome in her first month of life, and had a skull that was similarly shaped to the Asian baby pictured above. Was told the cause is unknown, but if I had to wager a guess I'd say it had something to do with being breastfed (said to make bones and cartilage more malleable) having a 99th percentile-sized head whilst being put to sleep on her back on a hard mattress with no pillow. How we dealt with it was going to physio and simply making a donut-shaped support (like how Natives did, as per a poster noted above) for her head out of a receiving blanket, a midwife tip, though considered controversial as pillows and blanket use are strongly discouraged at that age. Otherwise you wait until the baby is about 4 months old to get them fitted for a head shaping helmet that costs about 2-5k and is typically not covered by insurance. The folded receiving blanket yielded excellent results immediately and my daughter now sleeps with no pillow and has maintained a McKenzie chin tuck and nasal breathing since birth. She has a wide Roman-arched shaped palate with room for all her baby teeth. I also held her a lot, avoided placing her on her back (minimal car trips, no pram use, head supported for diaper changes) and placed her on her stomach for an hour a day until she put herself on her stomach at 1.5 months old (which she did herself about 8 hours a day). I think the helmets yield quite poor results and seem annoying, though it's probably better than having flat head syndrome. Very sad, but in my community I've seen just 2 other young toddlers other than my daughter, out of dozens, that appeared to be both breastfed (that is to say, good forward and horizontal growth) and without flat head syndrome.

@greensmoothies, those are some very interesting observations. So the donut pillow helped fix her head shape at first but then you stopped using it? And the head shape didn't change again? Do you think you'll keep her away from pillows forever then?

We used the donut pillow until she was about 6-months old, when she refused to sleep in her crib and I had to bring her in to bed with my husband and I. By that point her flat head syndrome was gone and it didn't return. We then discontinued the use of the pillow and haven't used one since. I believe it's recommended not to use a pillow until age 3, or something like that, but at any rate I'm in no rush to introduce one and might not ever do so. Last night I slept without a pillow and feel better for it. Anyway, there's a few different schools of thought on these practices. It's not recommended to share a bed with an infant, however since we're breastfeeding and my daughter is so vocal about getting her attachment needs met, our hand felt forced due to the family sleep needs and issues with neighbors. Some babies, especially breastfed ones, will reject crib use at some point and it's quite common to bring the baby to bed. Others will do what's called sleep training, which didn't work for us. But I just want to emphasize that the use of pillows, blankets and bed sharing before age 1 are considered suffocation risks, however it's what worked for us. My daughter is now almost 2, has a good skull shape and her facial features and teeth are developing well. I also attribute that to not ever giving a sippy cup, dummy/pacifier, very rarely bottle-feeding and not permitting thumb-sucking.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 28/02/2018 3:43 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies,

Yeah I know there is a lot of controversy about how to put a baby to sleep and how to be safe etc. It must be pretty stressful having to deal with all these different rules for such a seemingly simple task. It sounds like you are handling things well and helping your daughter to grow properly which is rare these days.

But anyways your anecdotes were interesting and I will keep them in mind for the future.

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Posted : 04/03/2018 10:56 am
FitBoy
New Member
Posted by: @sinned

I think either no pillow or a very light cushion is best. A pillow mimics a sort of forward head posture while laying flat against the floor allows you to have very good head posture. I think you might be interested in reading this  https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/notes-from-yesteryear/100-years-before-weston-price/

Title: 100 Years Before Weston Price

It talks about the practices of Native Americans in relation to their posture, how they sleep, nose/mouth breathing. etc. Very interesting.

 

It is best to breathe through your mouth only when you have allergic or cold nasal congestion. In addition, breathing the mouth can help get your muscles oxygen faster when you exercise hard.

Nevertheless, using sleeping stone respiring through your mouth all the time will lead to problems, even when you sleep.

Breathing in the mouth can lead to tight teeth, facial distortions or poor growth in children. Chronic breathing of the mouth can cause gum disease and breath impairment in adults. It can also worsen symptoms of other illnesses.

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Posted : 17/02/2020 11:14 am
Thomas22
Estimable Member

I dream when I sleep on the floor. That suggests my sleeping posture is better and I spend more time in deep sleep. 

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Posted : 18/02/2020 6:14 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

I don't know if sleeping on the back is the natural sleeping position. Maybe it was common in prehistoric times where CFD didn't exist but now it's almost impossible to prevent your body from switching position while sleeping, so sleeping without a pillow isn't going to imitate chin tucking because you will unconsciously switch position numerous times. I read that sleeping on the side is the sleeping position our body strives to because it facilitates breathing (modern CFD involved?) so I don't see how one could sleep on the back long enough to make an impact.

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Posted : 22/02/2020 7:01 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

great apes tend to sleep on their side with an arm serving as a pillow, though this requires a bunch of shoulder flexibility. sleeping on a single pillow supporting your neck is a good alternative if back sleeping chokes you out or drops your jaw.

 

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Posted : 23/02/2020 9:38 pm
Elwynn liked
silverfishKapenta
Active Member

Aww, even a dog likes his padded doggie bed. As for girls, we've got hips to deal with. All those curves are not compatible with the floor. (Although for the record I myself sleep on a self-inflating mattress layered on top of a futon style mattress which by some accounts adds up to a firm mattress.)

I think it matters what kind of pillow it is. My 3/4 size feather pillow is adjustable and I love it. I still miss the pillow from my childhood with was made with possibly ?foam bits? thrown together in a rectangle. Both could be squashed or plumped up. But some pillows are just cushioned layers of something, and I find them lacking. 

 

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Posted : 24/02/2020 6:00 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

I feel pretty unique here considering that I tend to sleep on my stomach. Between that and sleeping on your back, it's probably a lesser evil to sleep on your back (in my opinion). I grew up sleeping with most of my face pressed into the pillow. It's a difficult habit to unlearn.

24 years old

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Posted : 24/02/2020 7:05 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

I feel pretty unique here considering that I tend to sleep on my stomach. Between that and sleeping on your back, it's probably a lesser evil to sleep on your back (in my opinion). I grew up sleeping with most of my face pressed into the pillow. It's a difficult habit to unlearn.

Stomach sleeping may have its merits, possibly helping to bring blood to the jaws which generally don't get too much blood flow to them.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 25/02/2020 4:46 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies

Interesting. What sort of positive effects, developmentally speaking, would increased blood flow to the jaws have?

The reason why I believe that sleeping on my stomach was bad is because it would encourage me to press my face into the pillow, and in turn open my mouth. I presume that I breathed partly through my nose in this position, and I would almost always wake up with drool on my pillow, and a puffy face as a child. In addition to that, my stomach would hurt in the morning, because it struggled to expand against the weight of my body as I breathed.

24 years old

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Posted : 25/02/2020 5:32 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@greensmoothies

Interesting. What sort of positive effects, developmentally speaking, would increased blood flow to the jaws have?

The reason why I believe that sleeping on my stomach was bad is because it would encourage me to press my face into the pillow, and in turn open my mouth. I presume that I breathed partly through my nose in this position, and I would almost always wake up with drool on my pillow, and a puffy face as a child. In addition to that, my stomach would hurt in the morning, because it struggled to expand against the weight of my body as I breathed.

Similar to the benefits of inversion mewing, I'd imagine: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/upside-down-mewing/

There are some pillows for stomach sleepers that claim to help mitigate the issues to posture worsened by stomach sleeping

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 25/02/2020 6:35 pm