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Mike and John Mew, NEW Q&A NOVEMBER 2019  

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TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

Post below. The good stuff gets sent to Mike/John.

I rely on our incredibly knowledgeable and helpful userbase to provide answers to those who post questions that have already been answered.

This thread has been crosslinked to reddit as well

You are the most well informed and researched group on the planet regarding these topics, if you have something to ask, then shoot. 

 

 

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Posted : 15/11/2019 6:16 pm
Sean2019 liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
JawShrunk123
Active Member

Can I mew with a permanent retainer on upper 4 teeth and lower 6 front teeth and still get results?

 

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Posted : 16/11/2019 3:50 am
printfactory
Eminent Member

Happy to see another Q&A is happening. I wish we had more professionals (possibly anonymously if they are afraid of their reputation) engaging more actively in the discussions in this forum. 

 

Here are my questions, feel free to rephrase them to make them more concise and understandable and filter out the ones not worth asking. I am asking all those questions from the viewpoint of an adult (25+).

 

  • John Mew stated recently in a facebook post that teeth in contact are what mainly pushes the maxilla up. The tropic premise says that teeth should be in light contact for 4-8 hours a day. Wouldn´t individuals with a downswing maxilla benefit from stronger teeth contact for a longer time then?

 

  • Is teeth contact still recommended when you don´t have perfect occlusion? I am worried that bad occlusion will be reinforced and the resulting forces on the maxilla will lead to asymmetries. How could a class 2 molar relationship ever resolve if molars are kept in contact repeatedly?

 

  • Assuming teeth are the main force behind moving the maxilla up and forwards, would the upper and lower incisors and canines not touching lead to the front part of the maxilla dropping down? Are the front teeth touching a necessity to grow the maxilla forward?

 

 

  • Should the tongue be sucked up against the roof of the mouth or pushed against it?

 

  • Opinion on the theory that the shortening of the pataglossus muscle rotates the maxilla?

 

  • Opinion on the theory of TGW that maxillary growth is the main goal instead of maxillary rotation?

 

  • Opinion on hard-mewing (Pushing/Sucking the tongue up as hard as possible for some period of time during the day)

 

  • One video on the orthotropics youtube channel states that deep bites are actually hidden bilateral posterior open bites, when the jaw is in its resting position. Should the resting position of the jaw be changed (basically staying in the deep bite position while resting) or should you make an effort to change the "working" position of the jaws and chew in the posterior open bite position?

 

  • Would increased chewing or biting with the incisors help treating a deep bite? (Maybe on something like a towel as an exercise)

 

  • In his video about tongue chewing Dr. Mew states that he felt like tongue chewing expanded his upper dental arch a bit within 45 minutes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNocCJNicrc&t=3m30s . Any idea how such fast expansion did take place? Is it teeth tipping, skeletal expansion, suture separation or something else?

 

 

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Posted : 16/11/2019 8:33 am
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

@printfactory John Mew mentioned a case where a group of children who had a tonsillectomy as a result learnt to keep their mouths shut and breathe nasally. This caused their jaws to move forward 10mm on average. John Mew also stresses the importance of simply keeping the lips together quite a lot in his videos, see this for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t36ApJIktco

Therefore I think its just keeping the mouth shut that causes upswing and forward movement. So teeth can be kept either in or near contact like the Mews have mentioned multiple times.

Both Mews have also mentioned in several videos that the tongue should be suctioned on the palate.

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Posted : 16/11/2019 10:16 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

Since Dr. Mew never responded to the last round of questions, you might want to select some of the best submissions from this thread: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/the-great-work-doctor-mike-mew-orthotropics-qa-3/

I'd especially like to resubmit this question, which I'm still curious about:

Posted by: @apollo
 
In some of your videos with adult patients, you've mentioned the use of a "sonic device" to "soften sutures." What do you think is the therapeutic role of vibration/pulsed/intermittent forces as compared to constant forces? Are there specific frequencies and intensities that are most effective? Can you describe the kind of device that you use in a clinical setting and if there are any analogous devices that might be suitable for home use?
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Posted : 16/11/2019 4:07 pm
ShaktiOm
Trusted Member

How long should a child be breast-fed?

What kind of food do you suggest first introducing to a baby/toddler to encourage proper swallow function? What age?

How old should a child be before you teach them the cheesy smile swallow?

Many people have complained that mewing gave them facial asymmetries or made them worse. What do you think causes this?  How can it be prevented both in your practice, and for those who are practicing proper tongue posture without the help of a dental practitioner?

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Posted : 16/11/2019 4:16 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

In addition to my own question posted above, here are the submissions from others that I was most interested in from the previous unanswered Q&A (  https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/the-great-work-doctor-mike-mew-orthotropics-qa-3/ ).

Posted by: @Progress

Many adults seem to have achieved remarkable improvements by pushing really hard with the tongue. What is your view on hard forces vs light forces for adult patients?

Posted by: @ImperialMajesty

How does one interpret the indicator line? For example, if the ideal indicator line is 38mm, and one's indicator line is 42mm, does this mean that the whole maxilla must be brought 4mm forward and the maxillary incisors must be advanced 8mm?

Posted by: @Allixa

1) Certain parts of the online community are starting to move towards a chewing technique called 'open mouth chewing' in which we chew gum and other things with our mouths open and our lips unsealed. We have noticed that chewing in this way leads to better aesthetic results (less cheek bloating), better muscle balance, and a pronounced feeling of activation and movement across the entire skull that doesn't happen otherwise. In my case, since implementing this my hollow cheeks have become much more prominent. I was wondering what your thoughts were on this technique and if you were willing to experiment with it if you haven't yet.

2) I have recently began trying out a modified version of the push swallow in which I clench my teeth together with decent force in order to activate the swallow. I have found that clenching like this allows the push swallow to happen much more effortlessly but at the same time with even more force than what I was able to do previously when I was more focused on using the tongue for activation. Is this a normal technique and if not do you think it is a good change or a bad one? From my very limited time with this, it seems to have created only positive results.

Posted by: @Abdulrahman

What do you think of FAGGA treatment, and can it compliment mewing?

Posted by @varbrah

In regards to maxillary protraction in adults (assuming a typical or "average" case/patient):

What, in your opinion, is the ideal point of force application in the maxilla (assuming bone-anchorage)? Some examples include protraction from miniplates on the maxillary buttress, palatal miniscrews/microimplants (protraction in combination with MARPE), etc.
A commonly used direction of force application for maxillary protraction in mainstream orthodontics is -30 degrees to the occlusal plane. From your mew-vector appliance, I would assume your opinion is divergent. What in your view is the ideal direction of force application which might achieve results similar to those you strive to achieve with your patients in a clinical setting and why?

 

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Posted : 16/11/2019 6:06 pm
Sean2019
New Member

Why should teeth be in light contact instead of hard or moderate contact? What are the actual dangers of clenching, aside from cracking or bone loss?
 
The periodontal membrane is 1/8mm thick. Typical rapid expansion opens 1/4mm, which crushes the membrane and causes scarring, so semi rapid expansion opens 1/8mm (page 203, Cause and Cure of Maloclusion, John Mew).
Does this mean each side is pushed to the limit of 1/8mm? Or does it mean each side opens 1/16mm?

How much pressure is needed to cause vertical intrusion without damaging the membrane or roots? Is the vertical periodontal membrane thickness the same as the horizontal?

And if light pressure is applied, is the purpose to maintain the movement gained from previous chewing? Or is it to actively cause more tooth movement?

Thanks for doing this.

-Sean

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Posted : 16/11/2019 8:12 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

Bumping. Don't be shy about asking anything, reddit users definitely weren't. We'll be sorting through this thread soon to see what can be answered, anything new or interesting we'll paraphrase for Mike

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Posted : 19/11/2019 7:10 pm
myofunction
Active Member

My upper bonded wire retainer came out recently (6 tooth anchorage). It has been some time since then, and my maxillary incisors are still perfectly straight. I have been contemplating the removal of my lower bonded retainer, as it is still intact. I am aware of jaw growth until about 25, and am aware of the many claims of wisdom teeth suddenly erupting around the late teens, early twenties. I have to wonder if my lower retainer will prevent any remaining mandibular growth that may be possible in the late stages of puberty that I am currently in.

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Posted : 19/11/2019 8:59 pm
Lowerjawgrowth
Active Member

Can you please explain, in much detail, how to execute a correct swallow. Is it the tip of the tongue or the posterior third that initiates the swallow? 

 

Does tingling in the mandible after a correct swallow indicate "epigenetics"?

 

Thanks 

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Posted : 19/11/2019 10:23 pm
CL4
 CL4
New Member

Started mewing only about a week ago and can already feel changes in tongue space and maxilla position.  Upper teeth straighter and further forward, but not tipping (as far as I can tell).   I am 61 year old female, had premolars and wisdom teeth extracted and braces in late teens (unfortunately).  My question is, is it possible to have maxillary changes this quickly due to bone remodelling or could the changes I am feeling be due to soft tissue changes e.g. compression of periodontal membranes/ligaments?  If I can achieve favorable maxillary changes by mewing, will my mandible remodel naturally to match the maxillary changes?

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Posted : 20/11/2019 1:37 pm
CL4
 CL4
New Member

Can mewing significantly change cheekbone size/structure/position in adults?  If not, what is your opinion of cheek implants?  

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Posted : 20/11/2019 1:39 pm
CL4
 CL4
New Member

You mention that you have had impressive results with many patients.  Is it possible to show data such as dental impression models, radiographic evidence etc., that could convince the dental profession that your treatments work?  

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Posted : 20/11/2019 1:41 pm
Jelly
Eminent Member

Question: How is it possible to have a recessed chin and yet no overbite? How is it possible to make the lower teeth and chin move forward when the upper teeth seem in the way to accomplish this?

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Posted : 21/11/2019 5:18 am
Yusu
 Yusu
Active Member

Hello,

should my teeth still in contact, even if I have an implant on the right bottom mollar? Will this affect my growth?

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Posted : 21/11/2019 5:53 am
Jelly
Eminent Member

Question: What do you think of sonic vibration devices like Acceledent and Propel VPro5 and near infrared devices like OrthoPulse and Osseopulse to compliment Mewing and accelerate bone remodeling? Especially for adults for whom natural bone remodeling is a really slow process. Do you think it will help palatal expansion for example? Do you think one will work better than the other? Personally, I am biased towards the vibrating devices, as vibrations travel in all directions and light more or less in a straight line if I'm correct.

I will post some links with research and also a vendor that sells dupes of these expensive devices.

Research:

https://acceledent.com/orthodontists/clinical-evidence/

https://propelorthodontics.com/references/

https://propelorthodontics.com/doctor-resources/buzz-on-hfv/
https://www.orthopulse.com/doctors/evidence
http://staging.bioluxresearch.com/corp/pdf/OsseoPulse_AR300_Brochure.pdf

Dupes:
http://www.axeldental.net/

Devices not to buy due to too high frequencies:
http://www.bitepod20.com/fakeChina.html&source=gmail&ust=1574851849482000&usg=AFQjCNH570CEecNRH667PyBZTYcFiVrZ3 A"> http://www.bitepod20.com/fakeChina.html

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Posted : 21/11/2019 6:24 am
Jelly
Eminent Member

@apollo
I just saw you readmitting a question on sonic devices just after I posted a question on sonic devices.
Got so excited when you said that Mike Mew has talked about these devices!!! 
Could you maybe send me links to where he talked about it?
You might find my links helpful too. So far, it seems like the PropelVPro+ is the most effective (it's the same as the 125HZ device from the dupe site apparently).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6207979/

-As quantified by an accelerometer, vibration frequency and peak accelerations were 400% and 70% greater in the VPro5 (Propel Orthodontics) than in the AcceleDent (OrthoAccel Technologies) device.

-The device that engendered a higher vibration frequency and larger acceleration (VPro5) was superior in stimulating osteoblast and fibroblast cell proliferation/gene expression, although the duration of each treatment bout was 75% shorter than for the AcceleDent.

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Posted : 21/11/2019 7:54 am
Bison
New Member

After mewing for about 6 month i have noticed my bottom jaw premolars becoming ankylosed and not level with the rest of the teeth, any reason why this happens and should i treat it?

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Posted : 21/11/2019 9:44 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @jelly

@apollo
I just saw you readmitting a question on sonic devices just after I posted a question on sonic devices.
Got so excited when you said that Mike Mew has talked about these devices!!! 
Could you maybe send me links to where he talked about it?
You might find my links helpful too. So far, it seems like the PropelVPro+ is the most effective (it's the same as the 125HZ device from the dupe site apparently).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6207979/

-As quantified by an accelerometer, vibration frequency and peak accelerations were 400% and 70% greater in the VPro5 (Propel Orthodontics) than in the AcceleDent (OrthoAccel Technologies) device.

-The device that engendered a higher vibration frequency and larger acceleration (VPro5) was superior in stimulating osteoblast and fibroblast cell proliferation/gene expression, although the duration of each treatment bout was 75% shorter than for the AcceleDent.

Here is the video where Mike Mew mentions using a "sonic device" while attempting bone-anchored maxillary expansion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqqirRw_8bw

We've speculated in the MSE thread that the reason this patient's midpalatal suture failed to split could have been because Mew used a slower rate of expansion than recommended by Won Moon.

It's interesting to consider how vibration of varying frequency, intensity, etc. could influence dental alignment, bone remodeling, suture disarticulation, and bone growth in different ways. Is it simply a matter of stimulating osteoclasts and/or osteoblasts preferentially? For example, if acceledent is prescribed to make dental alignment more rapid and less painful, does that mean using it during expansion encourages dental changes with the teeth moving through bone rather than either "bone bending" remodeling or true skeletal expansion? It sounds like the device Dr. Mew was using in his clinic was applied on the face along the perimaxillary suture lines rather than over the dental arch like acceledent. So different objectives probably require different devices applied in different ways with different settings.

Here is the thread where I first started researching this topic: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/extracorporeal-shock-wave-therapy/

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Posted : 21/11/2019 1:54 pm
Silver
Eminent Member

Dr. Mew,

You've mentioned in a video that you can tell those who've had orthodontic treatment on both the upper and lower arches at the same time from those who haven't by feeling the lack of power in their masseter muscles when they bite down, because the teeth have been prevented from making natural micro-adjustments and as a result, the artificially created (though nice-looking) occlusion cannot load weight symmetrically, and the body won't let you bite with full force. Do you think it's possible to regain some or all of that through a vigorous and tough chewing protocol, particularly after mewing? Would the teeth make those micro-adjustments later just the same, even if it takes longer?

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Posted : 21/11/2019 6:47 pm
Jelly
Eminent Member

@apollo

Thanks. Gives me a lot of new stuff to read on top of the research on the websites I listed that I want to review further. I will post in the thread you linked to, let's continue discussion there. 

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Posted : 22/11/2019 6:23 am
Apollo liked
Loliboly
Eminent Member

1. Should people with crocked incisors still use them for biting? Or may it cause problems, or worsen the already existing ones, as (higher)forces are applied to teeth that already are out of balance?

2. Some people with straight teeth may still have recessed faces, while others may have decent forward growth, but still suffer from crooked teeth. And some people are equally affected by both conditions. If we assume that all these eventual cases are caused by inadequate oral posture and function, what causes the discrepancy in the outcome? Are certain people more prone to crooked teeth, while some more so to facial recession? If so, does this require different treatment strategies, or do they essentially remain the same, regardless of the patients specific issues?

3. By examining different individual reports from this forum, it seems people with the same inter molar widths can still have very different cases of crowding; some completely straight, others really crowded. What causes this discrepancy? *

4. There have been reports of people experiencing changes in their facial structures, without seeing any expansion in their palettes. How could this be explained? *

5. In your opinion, what are the benefits and/or dangers of splitting the palate, as a means of growing the maxilla? Could hard mewing(the practise of actively pushing the tongue hard against the palate) have the potential to split the midpalatal suture, especially in adults?

6. How would facial upswing affect a deviated septum? Would it straighten out, worsen or stay the same?

7. How can parents ensure that their children develop proper oral posture and function?

8. If you have one teeth extracted in one arch, would it be beneficial, albeit not optimal, to extract its counterpart in the same arch? For example, should you extract you left wisdom teeth in your upper arch, if the right one already has been removed? **

9. Will be palate shrink in different ways depending on what teeth being extracted? For example, having one wisdom teeth extracted in each arch, as opposed to both wisdoms teeth in just one arch.

* These questions could potentially be merged together with question 2.

** This question could potentially be merged together with question 7.

 

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Posted : 22/11/2019 6:37 am
Elidon555
New Member

Lower arch expansion question: ( Male 19 )

1-What's a good way to expand the lower arch without using appliances?

2-Will hard-mewing correctly help?
3-Will thumb pulling help?
4-Will chewing mastic/regular gum help as well?

I dont want to extract my lower wisdom teeth that's why I'm asking this :/

p.s: edit as you see fit

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Posted : 24/11/2019 5:16 pm
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