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Midface went forward, Mandible?  

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bulkebro
Active Member

Hello, 
So i've been focusing intensively on mewing the past 4months and my midface went forward pretty damn noticeably, I believe this is because I used to wear retainers, and during my braces treatment my front teeth were pulled inwards cause I had an open bite / Overjet.

But after ditching the retainers my midface pretty much shot forward in combination with mewing and my teeth remained the same so it's not from teeth tipping or anything (i think), kinda makes it look like I have an overbite now since my mandible hasn't moved.

Just wondering if my mandible will move to catch up with my midface, since I dont believe this was any rotation of the maxilla, more so my maxilla just became longer since retainers kept it back.

Quote
Posted : 23/05/2020 12:03 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @bulkebro

Hello, 
So i've been focusing intensively on mewing the past 4months and my midface went forward pretty damn noticeably, I believe this is because I used to wear retainers, and during my braces treatment my front teeth were pulled inwards cause I had an open bite / Overjet.

But after ditching the retainers my midface pretty much shot forward in combination with mewing and my teeth remained the same so it's not from teeth tipping or anything (i think), kinda makes it look like I have an overbite now since my mandible hasn't moved.

Just wondering if my mandible will move to catch up with my midface, since I dont believe this was any rotation of the maxilla, more so my maxilla just became longer since retainers kept it back.

Personally I've had forward and upwards change from mewing, but my gonial edge hasn't moved forward or upward, instead mandible grew and changed shape to match occlusion. 

 

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Posted : 23/05/2020 12:23 pm
Thomas22 liked
bulkebro
Active Member

@auxiliarus Interesting, did you keep your molars together? The molars furthest back started tipping for me so it kinda [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] with my bite a bit, causing me to not have ideal occlusion. perhaps that's why the mandible isnt catching up

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Posted : 23/05/2020 12:32 pm
Yusu liked
Yusu
 Yusu
Eminent Member

@bulkebro

hey, my case is the other way around. My mandible / ramus did grow, but my midface didnt get that much of forward growth.

I chewed a lot of hard gum (6 months, 1 hour every day)

And mewed with light force, have problems with the back of the tongue

 

How did you mew? Maybe we can help us each other

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Posted : 23/05/2020 12:48 pm
bulkebro
Active Member

@yusu Hey

Honestly, at the start I 'hardmewed' which was rather my tongue being so weak I pushed like crazy simply to maintain good posture. After a while I kinda learned that chin tuck+body posture was the end all be all for me, whenever I chintuck my posterior automatically goes up and my tongue is just automatically putting a lot of pressure, more so then me hardmewing. 

With time as my tongue got stronger I have to clench my jaw if im chin tucking cause otherwise it just bursts open from the pressure of the tongue. I think the focus on the tongue itself should be secondary cause when I just initiate proper body posture the tongue kinda knows what to do for me

TLDR: Chin tuck and perfect body posture is automatic hardmewing + gets the posterior third up.

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Posted : 23/05/2020 12:57 pm
Yusu
 Yusu
Eminent Member

@bulkebro

again chin tuck, I will try it.

But my neck burns after some times

However, as I said, maybe try hard chewing with hard gum for 1 month, but dont overdo it, I think it could help with mandible.

I chewed with molars but I heard open mouth chewing with premolars should be better... whatever, I try this now

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Posted : 23/05/2020 1:01 pm
Yusu
 Yusu
Eminent Member

@bulkebro did your cheekbones and under eye improved?

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Posted : 23/05/2020 1:02 pm
bulkebro
Active Member

@yusu
I have been chewing hard gum but honestly i've been chewing with the premolars by default rather then the back molars, probably as a result of my tipping from when I pushed like crazy in the start. 
You seemed to have results chewing with your back molars instead, I guess I could give that a try if I can manage to do it comfortably 

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Posted : 23/05/2020 1:04 pm
bulkebro
Active Member

@yusu
Cheekbones not so much I think, undereye yeah I don't look as tired. But my eyes became A LOT more hooded I practically have 0 upper eyelid exposure atm

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Posted : 23/05/2020 1:06 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @bulkebro

@auxiliarus Interesting, did you keep your molars together? The molars furthest back started tipping for me so it kinda [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] with my bite a bit, causing me to not have ideal occlusion. perhaps that's why the mandible isnt catching up

I didn't clench, only slightly distance between teeth, I did chew somewhat, which I think kept my occlusion good. Even though I said my mandible grew, my mandible projection didn't increase at all, maybe even decreased because the gonion moved backwards.

 

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Posted : 23/05/2020 1:11 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@auxiliarus

How do you get upwards and forwards growth of the maxilla but the gonion moves backwards? 

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Posted : 23/05/2020 3:24 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member
Posted by: @bulkebro

@yusu Hey

Honestly, at the start I 'hardmewed' which was rather my tongue being so weak I pushed like crazy simply to maintain good posture. After a while I kinda learned that chin tuck+body posture was the end all be all for me, whenever I chintuck my posterior automatically goes up and my tongue is just automatically putting a lot of pressure, more so then me hardmewing. 

With time as my tongue got stronger I have to clench my jaw if im chin tucking cause otherwise it just bursts open from the pressure of the tongue. I think the focus on the tongue itself should be secondary cause when I just initiate proper body posture the tongue kinda knows what to do for me

TLDR: Chin tuck and perfect body posture is automatic hardmewing + gets the posterior third up.

Hey man. Ive done similiar thing. Those posture and tuck days were so easy. Ive done this clenching after aswell. Be aware, it can lead to tmd, because if you are already recessed you retract your lower jaw and push it back into the socket when you clench and it doesnt matter if you touch teeth or not in this case (thats my opinion). 
Personaly, i focus atm on relaxing my lower jaw, jutting a bit (not past upper arch) hardmewing in chintuck (with focus around hyoid) or softmew else. Thats not advice, i dont know if it will yield the best results, but i certainly think it will lead somewhere.

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Posted : 23/05/2020 6:05 pm
bulkebro
Active Member

@adam
Yeah I get what youre saying about the clench part and pushing lower jaw back, I can definitely feel myself tensing my lower jaw.

Only issue with relaxing the lower jaw for me is that if I dont put in effort to keep my teeth together and relax a bit, my jaw slides forward so much it pretty much causes me to get an edge to edge bite immediately

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Posted : 23/05/2020 6:22 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member
Posted by: @bulkebro

@adam
Yeah I get what youre saying about the clench part and pushing lower jaw back, I can definitely feel myself tensing my lower jaw.

Only issue with relaxing the lower jaw for me is that if I dont put in effort to keep my teeth together and relax a bit, my jaw slides forward so much it pretty much causes me to get an edge to edge bite immediately

But isnt your jawline looking swell in this position? xD Jk, Guess all we have to do now is to push this maxilla up 😉

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/05/2020 6:49 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @bulkebro

@yusu Hey

Honestly, at the start I 'hardmewed' which was rather my tongue being so weak I pushed like crazy simply to maintain good posture. After a while I kinda learned that chin tuck+body posture was the end all be all for me, whenever I chintuck my posterior automatically goes up and my tongue is just automatically putting a lot of pressure, more so then me hardmewing. 

With time as my tongue got stronger I have to clench my jaw if im chin tucking cause otherwise it just bursts open from the pressure of the tongue. I think the focus on the tongue itself should be secondary cause when I just initiate proper body posture the tongue kinda knows what to do for me

TLDR: Chin tuck and perfect body posture is automatic hardmewing + gets the posterior third up.

You seem to share similar views as I do. You also said your eyes got more hooded? How old are you? Also, is your palate wider than when you first started? Did you observe any splits in your palate?

 

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Posted : 23/05/2020 8:17 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @bulkebro

But after ditching the retainers my midface pretty much shot forward in combination with mewing and my teeth remained the same so it's not from teeth tipping or anything (i think), kinda makes it look like I have an overbite now since my mandible hasn't moved.

Did you have a palate expander with your braces (some apparently do)? I can't say for sure without seeing your dental arch or palate but if your arch is V-shaped instead of U-shaped, then that could limit the amount of distance the mandible coming forward.

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Posted : 23/05/2020 8:23 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

pics?

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Posted : 23/05/2020 9:31 pm
Michael_101
New Member

@azrael how can a V shaped palate stop your mandible from coming forward?

 

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Posted : 24/05/2020 2:45 am
bulkebro
Active Member

@azrael My palate is kinda vshaped but my arch is not, sounds strange but I guess its just a ”side effect” of artificial widening.

I did not have a palate expander, but invisalign itself expanded the hell out of my arch. Im 22 years old but was a late bloomer and got the split in my palate just weeks before i started invisalign.

I can attach a picture of before invisalign to my current state today

 

 

 

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Posted : 24/05/2020 6:14 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @robbie343

@auxiliarus

How do you get upwards and forwards growth of the maxilla but the gonion moves backwards? 

Ramus and mandible grow, gonial angle decreases, gonion moves backwards.

 

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Posted : 24/05/2020 6:50 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @bulkebro

@adam
Yeah I get what youre saying about the clench part and pushing lower jaw back, I can definitely feel myself tensing my lower jaw.

Only issue with relaxing the lower jaw for me is that if I dont put in effort to keep my teeth together and relax a bit, my jaw slides forward so much it pretty much causes me to get an edge to edge bite immediately

Rather than being an issue, this is likely your mandible moving forward to it's natural position as a consequence of achieving proper functioning of the craniofacial musculature. See how you feel when you allow the jaw to slide as much forward as it wants to, even into an underbite if necessary. You may then find that the jaw and the lips come to rest against each other, forming a mutual balance zone.

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Posted : 24/05/2020 7:51 am
bulkebro
Active Member

@progress the only thing I fear by doing this though is completely ruining my occlusion, especially since I stopped wearing retainers so my teeth move rather easy

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Posted : 24/05/2020 8:13 am
bulkebro
Active Member

UPDATE: @progress I did as you said and let my jaw slide forward and have teeth contact that way and holy crap my mouth is remodeling at an alarming rate (hopefully good haha) one of my wisdom tooth in the lower jaw started erupting immediately from the gums and is now sticking out, also while flossing the gap between all of my teeth had noticably widened,

I'm pretty sure this very fast remodeling is due to me having finished braces this year and was wearing retainers like 3 1/2 months ago, but damn it worked, also my jaw is not in pain from tensing it back either.

This all happened from changing my occlusion during today only

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Posted : 24/05/2020 6:51 pm
Adam liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @michael_101

@azrael how can a V shaped palate stop your mandible from coming forward?

 

It could only happen if the mandibular teeth's occlusion doesn't fit properly with the maxillary teeth, which I don't think has happened here since he had invisalign/braces and his orthodontist would have noticed such a thing if that was indeed the case. However, if he has an overjet at the moment (I don't think he mentioned such a thing) even after the orthodontic treatment, then that could be the reason.

 

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Posted : 25/05/2020 12:46 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @bulkebro

@azrael My palate is kinda vshaped but my arch is not, sounds strange but I guess its just a ”side effect” of artificial widening.

I did not have a palate expander, but invisalign itself expanded the hell out of my arch. Im 22 years old but was a late bloomer and got the split in my palate just weeks before i started invisalign.

I can attach a picture of before invisalign to my current state today

 

 

 

Your ortho seems quite competent compared to mine, nice. Have your measured your inter-molar width? Also, you were mewing during the time you split your palate, right?

 

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Posted : 25/05/2020 12:49 am
bulkebro
Active Member

@azrael Yes I was, I believe my intermolar width was 38mm when I measured on my retainers if I did that correctly, not sure what it is now though

invisalign didnt actually do any expansion at all in the back molars, I used to rest my tongue inbetween my front teeth which is why the front arch was completely collapsed, not sure how the back molars stayed ”ok”

also in regards to the split, I can pretty much visually open up the suture across the hard palate in a matter of minutes if I suction really hard, but it's very exhausting to maintain. could insert a picture of what the split looks like if I do that if that's of any interest

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Posted : 25/05/2020 1:58 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @bulkebro

UPDATE: @progress I did as you said and let my jaw slide forward and have teeth contact that way and holy crap my mouth is remodeling at an alarming rate (hopefully good haha) one of my wisdom tooth in the lower jaw started erupting immediately from the gums and is now sticking out, also while flossing the gap between all of my teeth had noticably widened,

I'm pretty sure this very fast remodeling is due to me having finished braces this year and was wearing retainers like 3 1/2 months ago, but damn it worked, also my jaw is not in pain from tensing it back either.

This all happened from changing my occlusion during today only

Very intriguing. So it seems that clenching held your teeth in place by practically acting as a retainer?

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Posted : 25/05/2020 3:17 am
bulkebro
Active Member

@progress Yeah it definitely seems like that was the case

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Posted : 25/05/2020 3:22 am
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

@progress

Progress i had the same thing few days ago, after i started jutting and hard mewed in jutt/tuck for an hour.. it was crazy. In 12 hours my face changed like never before in my life in short period of time. My face feels different now, more flesh in some places. It was like whole lower third slided in matter of hours. I felt one masseter actualy "moving", was kinda creepy xd. And had funny swollen change in my eyelid, like after a punch or like those guys after plastic surgieries, swollen look. Generally swollen part went away after 20 hours or so. I remember i had also few clicks in upper spine, my neck feels a little bit different, and i had postural gains - its easier for me to lie on the back, like its more natural, and im a bit straighter when i look in the mirror. I forgotten to add skin on my forehead and scalp is crazy elastic now when i compare it to before.

Edit: Im not saying that my face changed a whole lot after the swelling came down, it was dramatic change for a short period of time tho. And i have to say, it feels totaly different now (and lower jaw/third actually changed dramaticaly).

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Posted : 25/05/2020 5:10 am
bulkebro liked
Zeus82
New Member

@adam did you have an overbite?

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Posted : 25/05/2020 5:29 am
Progress
Member Moderator

@adam Thanks for sharing. It's starting to sound like there is something magical to sliding the mandible forward into its ideal resting position and then mewing from this stance. I think it's worth looking more into. Were you applying pressure with the posterior or the anterior tongue? 

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Posted : 25/05/2020 5:59 am
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member
Posted by: @zeus82

@adam did you have an overbite?

No, i dont think i had an overbite, but im not sure. Maybe a small one? I had crocked jaw tho, i have assymetry (one side of the jaw higher than the other) and basicaly had 2 bites. I could easily change between them, and condyle would remodel in few hours. None of those bites where optimal now i think.

Posted by: @progress

@adam Thanks for sharing. It's starting to sound like there is something magical to sliding the mandible forward into its ideal resting position and then mewing from this stance. I think it's worth looking more into. Were you applying pressure with the posterior or the anterior tongue? 

Only posterior, anterior just lays flat on upper palate, touching lower teeth slightly (actually i tried to lower the anterior part now aritificialy, and it messes with posterior posture, so wont do that, was just curious). I was basicaly pulling all posterior muscles up for past 2 months but im starting to be selective. When ive done the jutt mewing, ive only used 2. The one that not choked while i mew - the swallow one (palatoglossus?) and one next to it that blocked my air. But after reading auxiliarus pointing to palatoglossus theory from lookism, days after jutt night i had success with only using this muscle (similiar sensations). Now im using palatoglossus (?), and as much as i can of another muscle w/o choking myself, so i can sustain comfortable breath with hard mewing/mewing. Funny thing is, when im using those posterior tongue muscles, my core tense, so i have easy time to know if i mew corretly because i have better mind muscle connection to the core muscles right now ;). What do you think about this palatoglossus theory progress?

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Posted : 25/05/2020 6:58 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @adam

Funny thing is, when im using those posterior tongue muscles, my core tense, so i have easy time to know if i mew corretly because i have better mind muscle connection to the core muscles right now ;).

Indeed, that should be a strong sign that you are doing something right. I used to experiment with jutting and pushing with the anterior tongue, but this made my bite feel weirdly narrow and recessed and was clearly not the way to go.

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Posted : 25/05/2020 7:12 am
Progress
Member Moderator

@bulkebro

@adam

Do you find that when you jut your mandible forward enough, your masseters activate? I'm wondering what the postural significance of this could be. 

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Posted : 25/05/2020 11:05 am
bulkebro
Active Member

@progress If I bite down when my jaw is forward my masseters probably gets 3x the activation compared to biting down in my normal occlusion, but theyre not passively activated or anything like that if that's what you meant, I think atleast.

But I dont really think im jutting cause the only way for me to maintain a normal occlusion is for me to hold my jaw back forcefully, this is just me relaxing and the jaw just pops forward

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Posted : 25/05/2020 11:44 am
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

@progress same for me, i dont have any masseter activation. Im really not jutting right now, cause my mandible slided i dont need to. I can mew w/o tensing my lower jaw, that whats most important to me. And they feel way outwards to where they used to be, thats the biggest change imo, thats imo whats bulkebro is refering to as 3x activation. 

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Posted : 25/05/2020 11:55 am
bulkebro liked
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member
Posted by: @progress

Indeed, that should be a strong sign that you are doing something right. 

Yes i think postural gains are real. Its harder for me to do ATP when i slouch and its harder to rest my weight on 1 feet b/c of core activation. I have a suspicion that if one would strenghten the tongue and rest it properly, after some time it would be harder to do FHP and rounded shoulders. Like there is some postural chain from core to the tongue.

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Posted : 25/05/2020 2:39 pm
bulkebro
Active Member

@adam Pretty sure general body posture is just SUPER important, when I was 15-17 I rested my tongue inbetween my teeth, tongue thrust swallow pattern (as can be seen on my dental arch before I had braces) but for some reason I was always known for having picture perfect body posture and I had a very well developed face because of that (strong jawline, hollow cheeks, prominent cheekbones) also had a great jawline without even chewing anything hard considering I barely ate, then I went on a video game bender for a few years and completely destroyed myself from having forward head posture

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Posted : 25/05/2020 2:50 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member
Posted by: @adam
Posted by: @zeus82

@adam did you have an overbite?

No, i dont think i had an overbite, but im not sure. Maybe a small one? I had crocked jaw tho, i have assymetry (one side of the jaw higher than the other) and basicaly had 2 bites. I could easily change between them, and condyle would remodel in few hours. None of those bites where optimal now i think.

Posted by: @progress

@adam Thanks for sharing. It's starting to sound like there is something magical to sliding the mandible forward into its ideal resting position and then mewing from this stance. I think it's worth looking more into. Were you applying pressure with the posterior or the anterior tongue? 

Only posterior, anterior just lays flat on upper palate, touching lower teeth slightly (actually i tried to lower the anterior part now aritificialy, and it messes with posterior posture, so wont do that, was just curious). I was basicaly pulling all posterior muscles up for past 2 months but im starting to be selective. When ive done the jutt mewing, ive only used 2. The one that not choked while i mew - the swallow one (palatoglossus?) and one next to it that blocked my air. But after reading auxiliarus pointing to palatoglossus theory from lookism, days after jutt night i had success with only using this muscle (similiar sensations). Now im using palatoglossus (?), and as much as i can of another muscle w/o choking myself, so i can sustain comfortable breath with hard mewing/mewing. Funny thing is, when im using those posterior tongue muscles, my core tense, so i have easy time to know if i mew corretly because i have better mind muscle connection to the core muscles right now ;). What do you think about this palatoglossus theory progress?

Did you mean to say your jaw slid to a new position? Condyle remodeling within in a few hours sounds strange. 

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Posted : 25/05/2020 3:17 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member
Posted by: @adam

@progress

Progress i had the same thing few days ago, after i started jutting and hard mewed in jutt/tuck for an hour.. it was crazy. In 12 hours my face changed like never before in my life in short period of time. My face feels different now, more flesh in some places. It was like whole lower third slided in matter of hours. I felt one masseter actualy "moving", was kinda creepy xd. And had funny swollen change in my eyelid, like after a punch or like those guys after plastic surgieries, swollen look. Generally swollen part went away after 20 hours or so. I remember i had also few clicks in upper spine, my neck feels a little bit different, and i had postural gains - its easier for me to lie on the back, like its more natural, and im a bit straighter when i look in the mirror. I forgotten to add skin on my forehead and scalp is crazy elastic now when i compare it to before.

Edit: Im not saying that my face changed a whole lot after the swelling came down, it was dramatic change for a short period of time tho. And i have to say, it feels totaly different now (and lower jaw/third actually changed dramaticaly).

Did you chin tuck for an entire hour? Maybe the swelling could have been lack of O2? 

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Posted : 25/05/2020 3:24 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I have always advocated mewing with the mandible in whatever position is optimal, whether it be teeth touching or not. For me mewing was done in an underbite simply due to me always having an underbite. At the moment my mandible sits slightly behind my maxilla with my lower incisors touching the upper

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Posted : 25/05/2020 3:35 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member
Posted by: @robbie343

Did you mean to say your jaw slid to a new position? Condyle remodeling within in a few hours sounds strange. 

Maybe, i dont know exactly what was that. But it made my joint achy for few hours but then i could chew normaly. That led me eventualy to jutting because i didnt know which bite is proper, so i just let the jaw slide down.

Posted by: @robbie343

Did you chin tuck for an entire hour? Maybe the swelling could have been lack of O2? 

Maybe, but it hasnt before. I chin tuck a lot.

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Posted : 25/05/2020 3:41 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney Which muscles do you contract for rising posterior third? All which you can breath with?

Edit: You probably cant choke with contracting those muscles at the stage of your progress, so: all but hyoid?

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Posted : 25/05/2020 3:57 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@Progress I've been sliding my bottom jaw forward ever since you told me about it and it feels great, like a therapeutic feeling. Not surprising, since my mandible has been set back for around 20 years. For the first week, I was doing it from the perspective of making the alveolar ridges antagonize against each other, but in the past day or two, just sliding forward without specifically trying to push certain teeth or anything feels increasingly better. I do feel the same vague masseter activation the others in here mentioned, too. My attention to tongue posture has been pretty minimal, as the jutting requires a lot of memory to keep up on its own.

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Posted : 25/05/2020 5:35 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @paperbag

@Progress I've been sliding my bottom jaw forward ever since you told me about it and it feels great, like a therapeutic feeling. Not surprising, since my mandible has been set back for around 20 years. For the first week, I was doing it from the perspective of making the alveolar ridges antagonize against each other, but in the past day or two, just sliding forward without specifically trying to push certain teeth or anything feels increasingly better. I do feel the same vague masseter activation the others in here mentioned, too. My attention to tongue posture has been pretty minimal, as the jutting requires a lot of memory to keep up on its own.

Glad to hear. 

 

Posted by: @adam

What do you think about this palatoglossus theory progress?

Sorry missed this question. It's definitely right in the sense that it indeed is the palatoglossus that raises the posterior tongue up. The fact that it is so intimately connected with the vagus nerve further suggests that it has prime importance.

 

 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 7:44 am
PaperBag liked
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

@paperbag

so how do you slide the jaw forward in this way?

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Posted : 26/05/2020 11:16 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@oatmeal My occlusion was recently classified as a class 1, but my upper front 6 teeth don't touch the bottom ones at rest because a bit of an overjet remains and the mandible is set back. I just slide it forward enough for most of these teeth to touch and occasionally shift my jaw into favoring certain teeth, like a side to side rocking motion. Proper lip seal is effortless and I get some facial pressure/muscle activation, though the latter seems to come at random. To clarify, it's enough of a jut that the bottom teeth are slightly pushing on the upper teeth from behind, it's a small push forward. I don't jut past the upper jaw or anything, which sounds extremely painful. It sounds simple, but my TMJs had no range of motion to be able to do this until seeing an osteopath last year (which was a result of trying to jut and injuring my joints), so every strong-armed attempt at mewing to move the mandible lacked this deliberate movement. To sound like a paid shill for her once again, I get a more pronounced feeling when doing this in the Gokhale Pain-Free chair than when standing upright or sitting on other surfaces.

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Posted : 26/05/2020 4:19 pm