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Mewing gave me a high-palate, don't make this mistake.  

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Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

keep talking

Looking at the photos shared by various people, it becomes evident that the overwhelming majority of those who have achieved change are keeping their head in the kind of slight upward tilt that would be conducive to SCM activation:

I'm not that familiar with the other muscles you mention, I'll have to look further into them.

 

So what kind of position do you suggest exactly? My SCMs are most activated the more I look up, but I can flex them in almost any position except very close chin-tucking, but even there they're still activated.

In the picture you shared, the neck posture of #2, 3, 5, and 7 got worse (if you'll notice the angle of the ears) and it's hard to be sure but it looks like the orbital support and ogee curve of #5 and 7 got a lot worse as well, even though they all obviously did grow a larger mandible. I don't consider the results of those four what we're really after, and the faces of #5 and 7 may be worse than when they started! Didn't they merely rotate their maxillas CW? Curious to hear your thoughts.

 

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Posted : 15/06/2020 11:12 pm
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

How can the tongue not touch the teeth if your palate is narrow? Also why would I want to increase my IMW it's already at 45mm and aboriginals in Australia had 40mm IMW?

Your alveolar ridge is somewhat tipped, and if your back teeth were less proclined, it wouldn't measure that high. I personally think that IMW is a poor proxy for "quality of palate", if you will, because there are other important aspects, like how close to the ideal U shape it is, how flat it is, how well the tongue can fit on it flat to form an automatic suction hold, etc. In your case, it looks like your palate is a little too narrow in the front, but I don't know how simple that is to fix with just your tongue.

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Posted : 15/06/2020 11:26 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @silver
Posted by: @auxiliarus

How can the tongue not touch the teeth if your palate is narrow? Also why would I want to increase my IMW it's already at 45mm and aboriginals in Australia had 40mm IMW?

Your alveolar ridge is somewhat tipped, and if your back teeth were less proclined, it wouldn't measure that high. I personally think that IMW is a poor proxy for "quality of palate", if you will, because there are other important aspects, like how close to the ideal U shape it is, how flat it is, how well the tongue can fit on it flat to form an automatic suction hold, etc. In your case, it looks like your palate is a little too narrow in the front, but I don't know how simple that is to fix with just your tongue.

I agree that IMW isn't a good measure of the quality of the palate.

1) What do you think is a good measure of inter-canine distance? Mine's at 35,0-35,2mm. Studies on normal occlusion all show around 35,5mm and studies on aboriginal palates show 35,8mm.

Here's the study on normal occlusion : http://www.contempclindent.org/article.asp?issn=0976-237X;year=2015;volume=6;issue=6;spage=202;epage=209;aulast=Patel

Here's the study on aboriginal palates : https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/50873/8/02main.pdf

 

2) My tongue fully fits on my palate now with ease.

 

IMO, if 35,5mm is the norm then the illusion of narrow front palate comes from too wide back palate and lens distortion(closer is always narrower in cameras). From far away my palate looks very U-shaped.

 

3) I think my biggest issue is my palate is either too high or my teeth are too low. If mew line is a good indicator then my palate is too high.

 

Either way I don't meat to brag, but I recently lost a good amount of weight(fat loss plus de-bloat from water) and mewing is [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] legit, I got a really defined face now, I doubt that in 2 years from 18 years to 20 years this type of change can happen in bone without external forces... I'll post pics in a few months when I'm finally down to my goal weight, which was my weight pre-mewing. If I am not lazy it'll take only few months, but I know myself and it'll take probs 6 months.

 

One thing that helped a lot is to stop chewing, my chin definition improved a lot from that, when I chew too much my whole maxilla rotates clockwise and gonion moves backward...

 

 

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Posted : 16/06/2020 8:39 am
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@auxiliarus

What do you mean by external forces? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/06/2020 4:32 pm
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @silver
Posted by: @auxiliarus

How can the tongue not touch the teeth if your palate is narrow? Also why would I want to increase my IMW it's already at 45mm and aboriginals in Australia had 40mm IMW?

Your alveolar ridge is somewhat tipped, and if your back teeth were less proclined, it wouldn't measure that high. I personally think that IMW is a poor proxy for "quality of palate", if you will, because there are other important aspects, like how close to the ideal U shape it is, how flat it is, how well the tongue can fit on it flat to form an automatic suction hold, etc. In your case, it looks like your palate is a little too narrow in the front, but I don't know how simple that is to fix with just your tongue.

I agree that IMW isn't a good measure of the quality of the palate.

1) What do you think is a good measure of inter-canine distance? Mine's at 35,0-35,2mm. Studies on normal occlusion all show around 35,5mm and studies on aboriginal palates show 35,8mm.

Here's the study on normal occlusion : http://www.contempclindent.org/article.asp?issn=0976-237X;year=2015;volume=6;issue=6;spage=202;epage=209;aulast=Patel

Here's the study on aboriginal palates : https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/50873/8/02main.pdf

 

2) My tongue fully fits on my palate now with ease.

 

IMO, if 35,5mm is the norm then the illusion of narrow front palate comes from too wide back palate and lens distortion(closer is always narrower in cameras). From far away my palate looks very U-shaped.

 

3) I think my biggest issue is my palate is either too high or my teeth are too low. If mew line is a good indicator then my palate is too high.

 

Either way I don't meat to brag, but I recently lost a good amount of weight(fat loss plus de-bloat from water) and mewing is [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] legit, I got a really defined face now, I doubt that in 2 years from 18 years to 20 years this type of change can happen in bone without external forces... I'll post pics in a few months when I'm finally down to my goal weight, which was my weight pre-mewing. If I am not lazy it'll take only few months, but I know myself and it'll take probs 6 months.

 

One thing that helped a lot is to stop chewing, my chin definition improved a lot from that, when I chew too much my whole maxilla rotates clockwise and gonion moves backward...

 

 

Congrats, very cool! Looking forward to seeing your pictures.

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Posted : 17/06/2020 6:38 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus Sounds good, can't wait to see the progress. I don't remember your previous photos showing that you carried much extra weight in your face, though just getting rid of bloating would likely be noticeable.

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Posted : 17/06/2020 9:43 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@auxiliarus Sounds good, can't wait to see the progress. I don't remember your previous photos showing that you carried much extra weight in your face, though just getting rid of bloating would likely be noticeable.

Yep, it's not much in most of my face, but it's very noticeable around my mouth. I also found out a lot of problems I had, like during chewing I'd use my hypohyoid muscles to open my mouth, which over-hypertrophied and over-strengthened them.

Posted by: @robbie343

@auxiliarus

What do you mean by external forces? 

Like the tongue applying an external force.

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Posted : 18/06/2020 3:15 pm
Silberman
Active Member

Auxiliary, I think your advice seems logical and sensible.

Your case, with the two images you posted, is one of the best-documented examples of effects of mewing I've seen. Could you say a little more about how old you are and how long it is between the two pictures? And about your routine. Did you combine soft and hard mewing? If so, for how long did you practice hard mewing per day?

Thanks in advance.

Silberman

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Posted : 20/06/2020 6:58 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @silberman

Auxiliary, I think your advice seems logical and sensible.

Your case, with the two images you posted, is one of the best-documented examples of effects of mewing I've seen. Could you say a little more about how old you are and how long it is between the two pictures? And about your routine. Did you combine soft and hard mewing? If so, for how long did you practice hard mewing per day?

Thanks in advance.

Silberman

Started mewing at 18, currently 20. I mewed with hard pressure on the sides of my teeth, especially in the back, for 2 years. I did not do any soft mewing, I've only started soft mewing recently because I believe mewing too hard pushes the hyoid forward and hypertrophies the muscle under the chin too much.

I did mewing whenever I could.

These days I do soft mewing and my tongue is naturally upwards even if I don't think about it, even during sleep.

 

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Posted : 20/06/2020 12:41 pm
Silberman
Active Member
Thank you very much. 
I take it as another example of how hard mewing can create significant changes in adults.

 

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Posted : 20/06/2020 1:37 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @silberman
Thank you very much. 
I take it as another example of how hard mewing can create significant changes in adults.

 

I haven't posted any before afters though, I just posted palate measurements after mewing, which became very wide (45mm IMW, which is +8-10mm increase) and some changes to mew line (-8-10mm).

 

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Posted : 20/06/2020 4:58 pm
bentspoon
New Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You know, I've been thinking, my mew line decreased 10mm, yet my mandible either didn't change it's angle or became even more recessed. Could this higher palate have caused the back of my teeth to move slightly upwards?

It's possible, and nears the ideas I've been mulling over recently. From the perspective of posture, possibly the largest problem that happens with excessive chin tucking or improper head positioning in general is inactivation of the SCM muscles. What gives the SCMs particular importance (apart from their superior size compared to other cervical muscles) is how they establish a connection between the cranial base and the sternum. Thus when the head is lifted up properly, the chest begins to hang from the cranial base, translating into a force that pulls the cranial base downwards. Now @eddiemoney for example has talked about the importance of having the cranial base descend down, and several users here and on Reddit have complained about how mewing only increased their ante-gonial notch, deepened their overbite, shortened their ramus and overall resulted in a more recessed profile -- all of which are symptoms of cranial base that has been crammed too high. The point I am leading towards is that without the SCMs pulling the cranial base down, the only thing you are achieving with the tongue is the aforementioned cramming, especially in regards to the palate. On the other hand, when the SCM and the tongue are working in unison, they form a specific kind of leverage that allows the cranial base to unwind, bringing the posterior palate down, decreasing gonial angle etc. Not sure how well the following pic illustrates the mechanics but the system would work something like this:

 

This feels really good, I have a weak masseter on my right side. And making sure this SCM is activated I feel how my jaw can recruit the entire masseter, sometimes when activating the SCM I feel one muscle of the neck is sliding over the other and settling in what seems to be a correct manner. I also just noted how an exercise for the myobrace seems to be trying to achieve the same kind of activation by tilting your head back. If you do this with a straight spine your jaw juts forwards, and when asuming a slumped position your jaw falls backwards.

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Posted : 25/06/2020 3:48 am
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: @silver
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

keep talking

Looking at the photos shared by various people, it becomes evident that the overwhelming majority of those who have achieved change are keeping their head in the kind of slight upward tilt that would be conducive to SCM activation:

I'm not that familiar with the other muscles you mention, I'll have to look further into them.

So what kind of position do you suggest exactly? My SCMs are most activated the more I look up, but I can flex them in almost any position except very close chin-tucking, but even there they're still activated.

In the picture you shared, the neck posture of #2, 3, 5, and 7 got worse (if you'll notice the angle of the ears) and it's hard to be sure but it looks like the orbital support and ogee curve of #5 and 7 got a lot worse as well, even though they all obviously did grow a larger mandible. I don't consider the results of those four what we're really after, and the faces of #5 and 7 may be worse than when they started! Didn't they merely rotate their maxillas CW? Curious to hear your thoughts.

I found a screenshot I had taken of another post by Progress https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/disagreements-with-mew/#post-28551 and thought about your examples here ^

I looked at old pictures of myself, when I was around thirteen and had much less CFD, and realized that just like these examples, my whole head was tilted in exactly the same way, even though my neck posture was much straighter back then. To have my ears at the same angle as they used to be at would require me to tip my chin up to the ceiling at least 30° from my natural posture today, which suggests that facial volume growth, at least in my case, will mostly come from the bottom of my maxilla making a rotation out in front of me (and the top rotating CW on its "axis" in the zygomatic sutures).

When I hold my head like that, I can feel way, way more pressure in all the right spots while mewing with only a suction hold and those muscles on my neck are firmly flexed. You're spot on @Progress, but I still think that some of those after photos in your collage don't look better (but those could well be misleading photos.)

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Posted : 26/06/2020 11:04 pm
Doomsiren
Active Member

So I've drawn myself a beautiful representation of the current state of the height of my palate in relation to my teeth:

This is the state of my palate going by the feeling of my tongue and it was this way when I started mewing and ends up happening what everkind of pressure i apply to to the palate eventually. When I gave up mewing and put tongue at the bottom of my mouth my palate came down a lot and my jaw and cheekbone width/ defenition were back to normal again instead of being recessed, if only temporarily. To the succesful mewers among us how high is your palate in relation to your teeth? Going by my experience at least. The hight of the palate should be more in line with your teeth. 

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Posted : 04/07/2020 11:14 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @doomsiren

So I've drawn myself a beautiful representation of the current state of the height of my palate in relation to my teeth:

This is the state of my palate going by the feeling of my tongue and it was this way when I started mewing and ends up happening what everkind of pressure i apply to to the palate eventually. When I gave up mewing and put tongue at the bottom of my mouth my palate came down a lot and my jaw and cheekbone width/ defenition were back to normal again instead of being recessed, if only temporarily. To the succesful mewers among us how high is your palate in relation to your teeth? Going by my experience at least. The hight of the palate should be more in line with your teeth. 

Interesting, I've experienced the same thing. Though your story isn't full. If only your palate moved you wouldn't have any exterior changes to your face, this means that some or all of your teeth moved as well.

I believe what happens is your palate moves upwards and the posterior teeth move with it. In my own palate during mewing I've measured distance between teeth and palate in the front and back. The front had a sizeable distance in between palate and teeth, yet in the back the teeth were a bit closer than in the front.

I think there are three possibilities here :

  1. Upwards force first pushes all teeth with the palate upwards and then once the teeth can't move anymore it pushes the palate slightly more upwards relative to the teeth.
  2. Upwards force first pushes all teeth with the palate upwards and then once osme teeth can't move anymore it pushes the more mallable posterior teeth and the palate more upwards relative to the front teeth.
  3. Upwards force pushes the whole palate upwards, the posterior teeth follow it while the anterior teeth either don't move or follow it less robustly than the posterior teeth.

I've noticed multiple times during mewing that my smile changes a lot, sometimes teeth are more upwards, sometimes more backwards.

I wonder if it's time to start sucking on the posterior palate perhaps. If you imagine the tongue of a baby it would be pushing upwards on the nipple at the front palate while creating vacuum at the back to suck the milk out, I think at least... Pushing the front palate upwards may not be the whole answer of the equation, I'll experiment with sucking on the posterior part to see if it can move the palate and the back of my teeth downwards.

Also assuming the back of the teeth move upwards, your gonial angle would have to shorten, did you experience any such thing? I believe I've had some reduction in gonial angle from mewing.

And if back of the teeth move up wards you'll have more dorsal hump, more skin thickness, more forward set eyes, etc... Did you experience anything like this?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/07/2020 5:20 pm
Doomsiren
Active Member

@auxiliarus

Sorry for the late response!

If I look at what has moved the most by just looking at my teeth it are the four front teeth. They used to be almost straight as an arrow now they are inclined forward quite a bit.

"Also assuming the back of the teeth move upwards, your gonial angle would have to shorten, did you experience any such thing? I believe I've had some reduction in gonial angle from mewing."

Yes I do believe my Gonial angle does shorten when I mew.

"And if back of the teeth move up wards you'll have more dorsal hump, more skin thickness, more forward set eyes, etc... Did you experience anything like this?"

I'm not to sure about these. These features haven't changed enough to be noticed I think, if they have. Features that have changed notably are my cheekbones and my jawline. Cheekbones I believe are higher but less forward and my jawline is much less wide. They used to be wider then my cheekbones but aren't so anymore.

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Posted : 29/07/2020 3:55 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @doomsiren

@auxiliarus

Sorry for the late response!

If I look at what has moved the most by just looking at my teeth it are the four front teeth. They used to be almost straight as an arrow now they are inclined forward quite a bit.

"Also assuming the back of the teeth move upwards, your gonial angle would have to shorten, did you experience any such thing? I believe I've had some reduction in gonial angle from mewing."

Yes I do believe my Gonial angle does shorten when I mew.

"And if back of the teeth move up wards you'll have more dorsal hump, more skin thickness, more forward set eyes, etc... Did you experience anything like this?"

I'm not to sure about these. These features haven't changed enough to be noticed I think, if they have. Features that have changed notably are my cheekbones and my jawline. Cheekbones I believe are higher but less forward and my jawline is much less wide. They used to be wider then my cheekbones but aren't so anymore.

I've had the same thing happen with the cheekbones. One thing I noted is when I push my palate forward my cheekbones follow, which makes them wider.

Try to keep an eye on the position of your gonion, mine degressed back into the neck from a lot of chewing, but I also did a lot of backwards chewing.

 

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Posted : 26/08/2020 3:06 pm
Doomsiren
Active Member

@auxiliarus

 

The position of my gonion changed for the worst I think. They come forward but are more round and less square then with a lowered palate, and when mewing where they used to stick out and would be wider they seem to go inwards resulting in a weaker jawline. As I said before. When I quit mewing and put the tongue on the bottom of the mouth for a while I can feel with my tongue that the palate comes down as well, which for me results in my gonion going back towards the neck again but it makes them wider and more square. Generally while mewing the overall volume of the bones in my face seem to suffer, only forward growth seems to occur. 

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Posted : 27/08/2020 5:37 am
Doomsiren
Active Member

@auxiliarus

 

How's your progress going along by the way?

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Posted : 06/09/2020 9:26 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @doomsiren

@auxiliarus

 

How's your progress going along by the way?

It's going good, slow and steady. I am currently only soft mewing and I believe my gonion and zygos have moved forward. I also think my zygos have narrowed while jaw looks wider because it's more forward.

 

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Posted : 07/09/2020 5:34 am
chiefkeefsosa
Eminent Member

@auxiliarus u got pics bruv?

This user has been banned from forum participation

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Posted : 07/09/2020 8:32 am
Doomsiren
Active Member

@auxiliarus

 

Good to hear! I've also returned to soft mewing and i've been trying to relax the entirety of my tongue, especially the back. Which made it push against my lower molars. It had the effect of widening my jaw and making my gonial move backwards more and make it more square. That effect lessened yesterday but my jaw width seems to be coming back now.

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Posted : 15/09/2020 9:15 am
Doomsiren
Active Member

So far I have been able to establish that the width of my jaw is connected to the pressure I can put on the side ridges of my lower molars. I put pressure on what I feel is the back of my throat by relaxing the root of my tongue, and which also puts pressure on the sides of my lower molars. This works quite well, at which point I get my wide jawline back again. Doing this makes me lose the pressure I put on my roof of my mouth though. So my pronounced features regress again at which point I put more pressure on my palate again but lose the width in my jaw again eventually. Trying to find out how I can put pressure on both the palate and my lower molars simultaneously now.

 

I made an appointment with a orthodontist for a myo brace, perhaps that can fix me up.

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Posted : 10/10/2020 3:42 pm
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You know, I've been thinking, my mew line decreased 10mm, yet my mandible either didn't change it's angle or became even more recessed. Could this higher palate have caused the back of my teeth to move slightly upwards?

It's possible, and nears the ideas I've been mulling over recently. From the perspective of posture, possibly the largest problem that happens with excessive chin tucking or improper head positioning in general is inactivation of the SCM muscles. What gives the SCMs particular importance (apart from their superior size compared to other cervical muscles) is how they establish a connection between the cranial base and the sternum. Thus when the head is lifted up properly, the chest begins to hang from the cranial base, translating into a force that pulls the cranial base downwards. Now @eddiemoney for example has talked about the importance of having the cranial base descend down, and several users here and on Reddit have complained about how mewing only increased their ante-gonial notch, deepened their overbite, shortened their ramus and overall resulted in a more recessed profile -- all of which are symptoms of cranial base that has been crammed too high. The point I am leading towards is that without the SCMs pulling the cranial base down, the only thing you are achieving with the tongue is the aforementioned cramming, especially in regards to the palate. On the other hand, when the SCM and the tongue are working in unison, they form a specific kind of leverage that allows the cranial base to unwind, bringing the posterior palate down, decreasing gonial angle etc. Not sure how well the following pic illustrates the mechanics but the system would work something like this:

 

So I am actually doing it wrong?, because when I try to get the back third of my tongue my head automatically swing back to be in proper head alignment/chin tuck but because I am recessed, I often look forward with the eyes but my cranium is angle downwards because of my maxilla down and recessed and the same with my mandible and feel intense activation of my SCM when I try to my move head left and right very hard sensing the tongue has to be straight up the entire time it’s there. So I am doing this right @progress

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Posted : 11/10/2020 9:22 am
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