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Maybe we are not attacking this correctly?  

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Wellwellwell
Active Member

I think that there is some goo info on the forum but so much of it is theorising with next to zero backup and bro science.

These are the following problems I currently see:

1. The first one is obviously lack of evidence and it seems to be a problem that everyone here notices. I think we should focus on measurable changes like IMW instead of posting before and after photos. Lets focus the means of documenting progress.. The ways we track and document progress should be very simple and available to anyone (like tracking IMW with biting down on a carton and a ruler) . Photos are not a good indicator, changing the angle of the camera in the slightest or the posture make extreme differences.

2. From reading the forum for some time it seems that we are too focused on Mew's findings, there are many other orthodontists and Myotherapists who are doing similar things with different approaches.

3. We should be more careful with our new findings and theories, seems like every other day a person here rediscovered the world and has a new theory that is the new best thing. When someone posts a theory he/she should back it with evidence (such as IMW change, even better if pictures with a ruler are shown).

Like everything on the internet there is a lot of garbage and some good info, we should do our best to separate the good info from the garbage.

I would also like to say that even if mewing does not work in grownups it did give me the habit of keeping my mouth shut which is already an improvement 🙂

- Age: 30
- Started soft mewing on 12 Feb 2019. Have not seen any real results or changes.
- Starting IMW: 35 mm
- Current IMW: 35 mm

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Posted : 22/06/2019 8:07 am
gubbbb
Active Member

I feel like there's a lot of none sense on this forum with people over exaggerating their effects without posting any evidence. I wish an FAQ would be stickied to answer the same questions people keep asking over and over so that threads don't get cluttered. And then there's all the "new treatments and ideas" that people come up with out of no where but get posted as if it where scientific law. It's hard to take this forum seriously some times and that's why I only show up every few months. I don't want people to stop posting hypothesis and progress but some standards would be nice

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Posted : 22/06/2019 8:40 am
Arkey
Active Member

I agree. I think we should be more explicit about what each of us are actually doing daily/weekly, so that we can meaningfully reflect on success stories and see what they have in common.

I currently have a theory that prolonged deep chin-tucking is incredibly important, but obviously without many anecdotal case studies for reference, I am just left with a shaky hypothesis and my own time and experience to go from.

Perhaps it would be useful to place an emphasis on recording and sharing our routine, referencing specific practices or forum posts s that we can identify any little factor that could have a dramatic effect. We are all trying to identify what has caused the great success of some of the users, and we could do it better if we acted in this manner.

- Mewing for 6+ months
- IMW: 35mm (no expansion)
- Sleep on the floor without a pillow
- Tape mouth at night
- Continue to emphasise chin-tuck/occipital drive for extended periods
- Chew Mastic Tears for 1 hour every other day

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Posted : 22/06/2019 8:42 am
Wellwellwell
Active Member

What do you think about including our routine + start date + progress in our signature for a start?

Then let's establish a way to post and talk about new findings, such as including a [evidence] tab in your title to show that you have done this for more than X time and had a change that you can show measurements of  (not side profile pictures).

- Age: 30
- Started soft mewing on 12 Feb 2019. Have not seen any real results or changes.
- Starting IMW: 35 mm
- Current IMW: 35 mm

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 8:53 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

A FAQ would certainly be in place. Maybe that should be where to general guidelines should be noted as well, encouraging and stressing the importance of measurements and evidence. Regarding pictures, I personally do think they are valuable as well as a good source of motivation, if they are well taken. But some standards and maybe a guide about how to take reliable pictures could help with the problems already pointed out by others.
   I've had this idea for a while where popular or seemingly more credible theories would be moved to a different forum section, where the "gems" gets stored, and further discussed. Meanwhile in the main forum, everyone could be free to post new ideas and hypothesis. This would keeping the forum creative friendly, but still make it more organized. What do you think? Any other ideas?

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Posted : 22/06/2019 9:12 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: Wellwellwell

What do you think about including our routine + start date + progress in our signature for a start?

Then let's establish a way to post and talk about new findings, such as including a [evidence] tab in your title to show that you have done this for more than X time and had a change that you can show measurements of  (not side profile pictures).

Good ideas. To include ones personal routine should definitely become a trend. For a newbie like me, how did you write it out @Wellwellwell?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 9:14 am
Wellwellwell
Active Member
Posted by: Loliboi

A FAQ would certainly be in place. Maybe that should be where to general guidelines should be noted as well, encouraging and stressing the importance of measurements and evidence. Regarding pictures, I personally do think they are valuable as well as a good source of motivation, if they are well taken. But some standards and maybe a guide about how to take reliable pictures could help with the problems already pointed out by others.
   I've had this idea for a while where popular or seemingly more credible theories would be moved to a different forum section, where the "gems" gets stored, and further discussed. Meanwhile in the main forum, everyone could be free to post new ideas and hypothesis. This would keeping the forum creative friendly, but still make it more organized. What do you think? Any other ideas?

Yeah a FAQ with guidelines is a must.

I think that a forum for gems is a great idea.

Pictures can be a good source of motivation, but I think they should be included with more easier/measurable evidence.

- Age: 30
- Started soft mewing on 12 Feb 2019. Have not seen any real results or changes.
- Starting IMW: 35 mm
- Current IMW: 35 mm

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 9:26 am
Wellwellwell
Active Member
Posted by: Loliboi
Posted by: Wellwellwell

What do you think about including our routine + start date + progress in our signature for a start?

Then let's establish a way to post and talk about new findings, such as including a [evidence] tab in your title to show that you have done this for more than X time and had a change that you can show measurements of  (not side profile pictures).

Good ideas. To include ones personal routine should definitely become a trend. For a newbie like me, how did you write it out @Wellwellwell?

I just wrote something small now. I am a newbie as well, but look at my signature for a start. It can definitely be something better than what I wrote as long as it doesn't take too much space.

- Age: 30
- Started soft mewing on 12 Feb 2019. Have not seen any real results or changes.
- Starting IMW: 35 mm
- Current IMW: 35 mm

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 9:28 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

I saw what you included in your signature and I think it was good enough! 👍 What I meant to ask was how you edit your profile the way you did. Did you write in the section "about me"?

Edit. I found it, never mind lol!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 9:34 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

Monitoring. I'll start implementation of some changes tomorrow

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Posted : 22/06/2019 11:36 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

Here is a list covering what information I think should be included in the signature:
- Age.
- Started soft/hard mewing on _insert date_
- Started closed/open mouth chewing on _insert date_/Does not chew. Chews _insert chewing gum/device_ x amount of minutes/hours a day. 
- Started chintucking x amount of time on _insert date_/Does not chintuck
- Sleeps in bed/on floor with/without pillow.
- Sleeping position: Back/side/stomach or combination of x and y and/or z.
- Chintucks/does not chintuck in bed.
- Mews in sleep since _insert date_/Does not mew in sleep yet.
- Staring IMW: mm
- Current IMW: mm

In the meantime I have filled out this formula in my signature. I encourage everyone who sees these posts to do the same(great idea @Wellwellwell!) If anyone has anything more to add to the list, or has a better formula for what information to include, please do share your thoughts!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 12:03 pm
Wellwellwell
Active Member

I am trying to think of a good way to measure other things than IMW, because some users are reporting that they feel an upswing of the maxilla without IMW change.

The current way to measure IMW by biting down on something and measuring the distance between first molars is very easy to do at home for everyone.

Maybe we can think of something similar for measuring the shortening of the midface for example? 

I think the main problem with measuring the midface is that the lips are hard to keep in the same position and may resault in wrong measurements.

Maybe just measuring the nose length can be easy enough for everyone and indicate of changes in the skull?

Then with both measurements of midface and IMW we can claim that the face is wider and more forward than before.

- Age: 30
- Started soft mewing on 12 Feb 2019. Have not seen any real results or changes.
- Starting IMW: 35 mm
- Current IMW: 35 mm

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 12:57 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

I have to admit that I really don't get how to determine the quality of one maxilla. What are the bulletproof way to determine this? Is it just the length of the midface @Wellwellwell? However you do this, it would make sense to keep track of visible changes for the reasons you pointed out.

This relates to pictures as well. Full documatnion of the face should include:

- Front pictures
- Side pictures, both sides.
- Pictures to trace ogee curve, on both sides.

Taking good pictures can be hard, but here are some suggestions everyone should consider:

- Keep the lightning the same. Think about presence/absence of daylight. If possible, take the in a room without windows.
- If you use a filter, always use the same
- Always use the same background.
- Even if intimidating: if possible, consider asking someone else to take the pictures if you find it hard to do. Remember that the better you track your progress, the more you benefit not only your self, but also the ones you might share them with.
- Try to always take the pictures from the same height to ensure that the same angles are being compared. For example: put the camera in the most favorable position you can find, a table, a shelf etc. Get yourself in position, may it be standing up on your feet or down on your legs(if you use a table for example), use the cameras timer and take you photos. Keep this height for all your future photos.
-Take before photos that are taken under the same conditions as the after photos, since that will make they way more reliable.

What do you think? @Wellwellwell, @Arkey, @Gubbbb?

Once again, feel free to revise this list!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 2:50 pm
Wellwellwell
Active Member

@loliboi yeah upswing is really hard to measure, but if we can clearly show that many people's midface is getting shorter and IMW is getting wider than the method is working at least for that and we can assume that some upswing happened. Just can't think of any direct way to track upswing 🙁

It can be great if people do all of your requirements, I think though unfortunately that the majority will not.

As long as we can keep it to 1-3 simple measurements I think people are more likely to do that.

I think that many people may not want to post their photos online, some are too lazy to do exact photos and sometimes it's just really hard.

Also there are some factors which are out of their control like gaining and losing weight (very possible in a long period of time), grow facial hair and sometimes it's just hard to re-create the exact same pose and angle. I think that face photos can't be used as anything more than motivation.

I think you can see for example that @gubbbb posted before and after photos before and he has some pretty good editing skills and probably spent time and effort and still had it wrong the first time. He recently changed his post-mewing photo and his position regarding the changes that occurred in his face.

If we want to establish a minimal way to track and present progress I think it should be based on measurements that are not effected by any element other than skeletal change.

- Age: 30
- Started soft mewing on 12 Feb 2019. Have not seen any real results or changes.
- Starting IMW: 35 mm
- Current IMW: 35 mm

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 4:55 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Wellwellwell

I am trying to think of a good way to measure other things than IMW, because some users are reporting that they feel an upswing of the maxilla without IMW change.

The current way to measure IMW by biting down on something and measuring the distance between first molars is very easy to do at home for everyone.

Maybe we can think of something similar for measuring the shortening of the midface for example? 

I think the main problem with measuring the midface is that the lips are hard to keep in the same position and may resault in wrong measurements.

Maybe just measuring the nose length can be easy enough for everyone and indicate of changes in the skull?

Then with both measurements of midface and IMW we can claim that the face is wider and more forward than before.

See threads on "Mew indicator line."

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 5:49 pm
Wellwellwell
Active Member

@Apollo thanks!!

I read this post https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/mew-indicator-line-measurement/

I will start measuring my Mew Indicator Line (MIL?) as well.

- Age: 30
- Started soft mewing on 12 Feb 2019. Have not seen any real results or changes.
- Starting IMW: 35 mm
- Current IMW: 35 mm

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 8:19 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Wellwellwell

@Apollo thanks!!

I read this post https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/mew-indicator-line-measurement/

I will start measuring my Mew Indicator Line (MIL?) as well.

Here's another thread: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/how-recessed-are-you-how-to-track-progress-inside/

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/06/2019 9:12 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: TGW

Monitoring. I'll start implementation of some changes tomorrow

Update: I attempted to implement the changes. That's why the website went down for half an hour 😀 

Give me a few days to enlist my more coding-capable friends and see if its possible for me to implement the changes I envisioned - otherwise we'll just revert to a FAQ thread/article

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/06/2019 5:56 pm