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Maxillary recession = ideal outcome?  

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EddieMoney
Reputable Member

This is sort of a "part 2" to this other thread by @Progress

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/expansion-equals-recession-wait-what-pics/

I was never really a proponent so much of "forward" growth but I really preferred the term "upward" growth even better. 

However I made an observation in this thread about bone changes in a 19 yr old. 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/alveolar-prognathism-need-advice/#post-25092

Notice how the mandible, chin, nose, and basically all of the facial skeleton increases in projection and moves AWAY from the maxilla (follow the blue lines). Her teeth move BACKWARDS and away from her nose, increasing her Mew line. Her maxilla remains unchanged in its skeletal position. Rather, the whole skeleton goes ahead of it. 

I think this goes in line with expansion equaling recession. This outcome would theoretically also SHORTEN the midface by increasing its width, NOT by "pushing the maxilla up and forward".

So truly, moving the maxilla up and forward doesn't have to be possible for results to happen. When people say maxillary forward is impossible they are right. What they aren't right about is the idea that this actually needs to happen to see desirable results. 

In practice I am starting to see why measuring Mew lines might be not as previously useful in terms of progress as once thought. At least, seeing positive changes doesn't have to be tied to seeing the line shorten over time. 

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Posted : 23/09/2019 2:56 pm
Elwynn
Eminent Member

@EddieMoney, it was Progress whose posts have introduced me to the idea which you elaborated on here. I am definitely finding it true in my own experience that it's not necessarily the maxilla that moves up and forwards, but other regions of the skull align to shorten the mid-face. Though the photos I've taken of myself do not yet conclusively prove it, they certainly strongly suggest it. Progress' photos and his opinion suggests it as well.

Besides, if I observe my profile and attempt to imagine the maxilla swinging up and forwards with my mandible following this movement, it leaves me with an image of a face that is abnormally extended from the back of the skull. There's just not enough bone mass to realize such a skull transition. I realize that this isn't a strong argument, but the long list of small anecdotal arguments that I've gotten from this forum thus far makes me feel confident in the argument that you've described - at least for the time being.

I'm curious, have you noticed any changes facial changes that correlate with the above theory?

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Posted : 23/09/2019 4:18 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@EddieMoney, it was Progress whose posts have introduced me to the idea which you elaborated on here. I am definitely finding it true in my own experience that it's not necessarily the maxilla that moves up and forwards, but other regions of the skull align to shorten the mid-face. Though the photos I've taken of myself do not yet conclusively prove it, they certainly strongly suggest it. Progress' photos and his opinion suggests it as well.

Besides, if I observe my profile and attempt to imagine the maxilla swinging up and forwards with my mandible following this movement, it leaves me with an image of a face that is abnormally extended from the back of the skull. There's just not enough bone mass to realize such a skull transition. I realize that this isn't a strong argument, but the long list of small anecdotal arguments that I've gotten from this forum thus far makes me feel confident in the argument that you've described - at least for the time being.

I'm curious, have you noticed any changes facial changes that correlate with the above theory?

My eyes have moved a bit further apart and also deeper into their sockets. My lower third has elongated. My cheekbones appear way more prominent and my skull has definitely widened. The widening of my skull and spacing of my eyes has made my midface shorter even if my maxilla has pretty much stayed in the same position.

I think Mew lines are OK for measuring jaw projection but like I said before, actually shortening the skull vertically can have unaesthetic consequences, such as looking pug faced. Decreased Mew line =/= aesthetic result. I have seen way too many unattractive short faced people. What matters isn't vertical shortening but creating a "wider than long" face. Heck some people with short Mew lines have long midface ratios anyway, since jaw projection doesn't necessarily make your skull wide. 

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Posted : 23/09/2019 5:05 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member

Stuff like this really worries me, I'm trying to improve my facial aesthetics but I might end up making myself look worse, even if I am technically "more developed".  Any tips for avoiding this?  I know it's kind of specific to each person though.  But on the other hand, mewing is just good tongue posture, so do I really want to have BAD tongue posture and keep my face the same?  I doubt it works like that.

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Posted : 23/09/2019 5:37 pm
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member

This content Is ok, but the title Is really confusing. 

 

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Posted : 23/09/2019 6:05 pm
Fred
 Fred
Estimable Member

What is the change in the lip? 

This seems extremely counterintuitive, but there are some points that are okay. I have mental images of what this would look like before and I see a maxilla that extends to a certain point and the chin is ahead of it by a couple inches or centimeters. It's a pretty decent-good look.

I would like to agree with your statement on short faced people. Wait, isn't a recessed maxilla contributing to that pug face look on short faced people? A "wider than long face" I disagree, you can get away with 1:1 face or a little lower, but you're crossing the line right there.

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Posted : 23/09/2019 9:10 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @fred

What is the change in the lip? 

This seems extremely counterintuitive, but there are some points that are okay. I have mental images of what this would look like before and I see a maxilla that extends to a certain point and the chin is ahead of it by a couple inches or centimeters. It's a pretty decent-good look.

I would like to agree with your statement on short faced people. Wait, isn't a recessed maxilla contributing to that pug face look on short faced people? A "wider than long face" I disagree, you can get away with 1:1 face or a little lower, but you're crossing the line right there.

Ok makes sense about wide vs short face ratios

Re: brachyfacial types;

Short faced people have a maxilla that is too elevated in their face. The Mew line may be short but the midface support isn't there. Their maxilla isn't recessed as in far back, it's their midface/cheekbones usually. That weak midface plus extended jawline makes the pug face. 

Ideally the maxilla just be just "far enough" from the nose. Not too close and not too far. This is the "mesofacial" ideal where soft tissue and bony prominence are well balanced

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Posted : 23/09/2019 10:48 pm
Fred
 Fred
Estimable Member

An attractive maxilla-mandible relationship on a man. Is when the furthest point of the maxilla is ahead of the eyes by what seems like to be a couple cm. And the chin is ahead of that by at least an inch or so. The furthest point your face can grow is the best your face can be. That is my take on this. 

A kid in my school with a basically a 1:1 face ratio, round, flat, dark circles from recessed maxilla, and he had braces since he was 10 or 11. It doesn't get more pug faced than that. 

This other guy with an extended jawline. He leaves his mouth open partly open and his body posture is like someone is exaggerating or mocking someone else's body posture, it's so severe. His mandible is round and the ramuses are short. I do not subscribe to the notion of having a chin further than you lips at all really. The lips meet up with the chin and that is what is typically seen from properly grown faces.  

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Posted : 24/09/2019 10:43 pm
Elwynn
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

Apart from my photos, which indicate a slight recession of the midface (good), the biggest aesthetic change that I've noticed are more prominent cheekbones. My face in general appears a little more masculine as opposed to boyish, but I can't quite put my finger on what else changed aside from the cheekbones. In any case, the changes are small.

Considering that I've been mewing for a little over a year now, this makes me worried a bit. If it took me this long to achieve minuscule progress, it will take a decade to make any substantial changes. However, when I feel this doubt strongly, I remind myself that for the first year or even longer, I was not mewing correctly. Back then, I was only pressing the tip and the mid-section of my tongue against the palate. I was not engaging the posterior-third, because it was preventing me from breathing, and I couldn't figure out how to perform the suction-hold either.

Since then, my oral posture has definitely improved. Although it doesn't feel like my palate is wider (the measurements I took are unreliable), it possibly had expanded, since I can now fit at least half of my tongue's posterior third on the palate, and even maintain a decent suction-hold. Perhaps the lack of profound aesthetic changes - though a little discouraging - is not a sign of the absence of progress. Maybe I should regard the last year and a half not as a period of mewing per se, but rather a period of learning how to maintain a good oral posture. Now that I am getting a handle on correct posture, hopefully changes will start appearing over the next months and years. This would align with the fact that my cheekbones became more prominent only after I began engaging more of my tongue (the previous several months of engaging only the front of the tongue had not brought forth any noticeable changes).

I'm curious as to whether you've had difficulties in "doing" a good oral posture when starting out, and whether there were changes, which only began to appear after perfecting certain aspects of your oral posture.

Heck some people with short Mew lines have long midface ratios anyway, since jaw projection doesn't necessarily make your skull wide.

I am one of those people. I've never been focused on Mew lines and perhaps it's because mine has always been short despite significant craniofacial dystrophy. The lower-third of my face appears retracted in comparison to my mid-section, which appears to be extending forward, making my nose very prominent. However, my chin as well as my philtrum are fairly short, so the mew line remains short too.

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Posted : 26/09/2019 11:37 pm