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Maxiallry facepulling but with MAGNETS (IDEA ONLY)  

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Meowxilla
Eminent Member

Hello everybody. I have been thinking about how to actually add more preassure on maxilla since i think touge alone won't help me get results i want. I will soon be 21 , (20 days) and life is ticking by. 

I think small enough magnet can be put inside removable applience which can only sit on roof on your mouth.

Some Neodymium magnets have force up to 35N when in contact and i think they are small enough so that they fit inside regular appliance.

Now we have completely removed any wires on or unnecessary stuff from mouth.

Other magnet is placed outside of mouth near your face on metal bar. Now magnets attract each other , not with 35N but less due to distance. This whole structure with metal bar sits on some kind of support , either headgear or neck gear, dosen't matter really. Something which does not add force to your face.

 

I think this could really work. Any thoughts? It seems revolutionary.

 

Something like this but without wires and neodymium magnet is in middle. 

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Posted : 08/08/2020 8:30 pm
mac
 mac
New Member

I have no idea whether that will work or not, but it is good to see someone trying to come up with ideas. I believe at this point most peoples skulls are so poorly developed that they can't be fixed by mewing alone and until a device is created to help pull the maxilla/jaw forward most will never recover. 

Hopefully this thread will spark a conversation into new devices.

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Posted : 08/08/2020 11:18 pm
JordanR
Active Member

@mac

I'm surprised more work hasnt gone in to this. Really, I think an interested dental lab could create the right device. It should put all force on the maxilla, and leave the teeth alone.

This young guy has put in some good work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z5YW09sPG4

Other options would be something similar like MSE drilled in to the maxilla itself. We know bone remodelling is possible at any age. The bottleneck seems to be an effective device at this point.

The Face Bow is the best provider of the outside force so far: https://letsfaceit-629526.square.site/product/bow/4?cs=true  

I am trying to contact the creator and acquire one, but I receive no email response. I am currently looking for an American to call her for me and see if they are still in business.

The missing link is the inside mouth appliance. For kids, it can seemingly just be attached to braces because the skull is still so mobile. In adults, this just seems to produce teeth movement, because the skull bones are now too strong. We need a device that directly affects the maxilla alone.

Thanks to OP for putting mental effort towards solutions. The magnet idea, if you could get it strong enough, could have some real potential.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 7:13 am
CrimsonChin
Active Member

Sounds like a pretty good idea. Wouldn't it be better in theory to have the magnet on the part of your maxilla above your front teeth so the magnets would better simulate actual pulling? Maybe I'm missing something, though.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 3:01 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@jordanr 

I have contacted Nelson and he said it's interesting idea. I think i will buy magnets in order to expiriment with them. They are pretty cheap.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 3:15 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

I have found posibble solution. 50x25x10 mm can be fitted inside mouth and outside even larger magnet. 

This thing has 10N of force at 2.7 cm drops around to 5N at 3.5cm

Monkey study has had force of 500grams or 5N if i'm not mistaken. Had produced significant results. Can't find study , if somebody, please give a link.

I think we can control force nicely, have confort and really see changes. However will try some magnets from online to see if it is promising.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 4:06 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@meowxilla Which appliance would you put them in? I'm trying to think of something for a frontal pull, but anything like a modified mouth guard seems too teeth focused and might wreck your bite.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 4:36 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@crimsonchin

Some kind of custom made appliance, if you contact dentallab or you know to make applience yourself it dosen't matter.

Something removable which is comfortable to wear. It's in shape of your upper palate , does not touch your theeth , just pushes on upper palate.

You can attract it with outside magnets which need some kind of headgear on which they sit. Force can be easily calculated and modified by changing outside magnets. You can have 2000N of force at contat of magnets so you have to careful when putting it in. It can crush your skin and i think it isn't safe to wear over night.

Applience is least of problems it can be made easily. Problem is finding right headgear which does not pushes on face and has magnets near your nose but not touching it. Outside magnets can be interchanged easily , applience magnet needs to be as large as possible and covered in silicon or whatever it's made off.

Currently i am looking at forces between magnets and it looks promising and dangerous if you overdoit. There is a real possibility for this kind of stuff working.

Would be best face pulling gear in my opinion.

Something like this, it's from Nelson's video "Dowden applience V1 Creation" But it has magnets inside and no nails. Fits on your upper palate and outside magnets is around your nose area attached to headgear and not touching face.

Green is force , Red is outside magnet , blue is applience. Force is at 45 angle. Plenty of pushing up and frontally but due to mouth shape , applience slides into upper part of mouth , not in front of theeth. It's secure. Closer you get stronger it is. I need desing for magnet holder for outside portion. 

If we don't like direction of force , we can easily manipulate outside magnets.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 4:54 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@meowxilla

https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/0002-9416(78)90080-5

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Posted : 09/08/2020 5:25 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@meowxilla You've put a lot of thought into it, which is admirable. Perhaps the external magnets could be hot glued to the bottom of sun/glasses - I just tried some on and it seems like if you could make the ear bit longer, it would provide a decent hold. Depends how far away the magnets would have to be, I suppose.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 5:53 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@crimsonchin

WE don't want forces on face. Sunglasses would exert force on nose , possibly making it croocked or some other deviation which is unwanted.

If we get 10 N of force which is what i am aiming for it would be hard on your nose. Avoiding it is must priority for best development. First somebody needs to test magnet setup. I bought magnets and i will see how they interact without appliences or metal headgear. In future i want some kind of facepulling. Possibly i will contact dental lab or make applience myself at home.

If it works i will post how i made it.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 6:01 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@meowxilla Looking forward to the updates. I'll keep thinking/looking for a headgear idea and will share if it seems like a possible solution.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 6:19 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@meowxilla I just thought of something - I didn't tape it very much because it was just a demo, but I tried wearing it and it seems like it would accomplish what you want if you could hot glue the magnets on. Just a hat and a small digital camera GorillaPod - the legs are adjustible, though there may also be a model where you can take off the little orbs to make it shorter, though the distance as-is seemed fine, as both legs were an inch away from touching my face.

 

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Posted : 09/08/2020 6:32 pm
Meowxilla liked
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

I am trying to get 10 N of force (1kg in weight). I think this cap will colapse / change shape under such preassures. We need something more robust. Magnets change force really fast depending on distance. Even 5mm of displacment can change froce to 15N so it would litterally colapse on your face with force of 200N maybe.

I need to expiriment frist but thanks anyway. 

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Posted : 09/08/2020 6:44 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@meowxilla My first idea was a bike helmet, but didn't have one laying around. There's a guy whose pictures are posted on these types of forums pretty frequently who made headgear out of a hockey helmet, though I think his was to attach to a device, the helmet was for the sake of sturdiness. I'll keep looking; it's been a long time since any idea actually seemed like it would work, so this is pretty interesting.

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Posted : 09/08/2020 7:13 pm
mac
 mac
New Member

What about instead of using the magnets to attract each other, you instead try to use them to repel each other.  Like something in or around neck which would repel the magnet up into the palate moving the maxilla up.

Just trying to come up with ideas to help out. 

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Posted : 11/08/2020 1:35 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@mac

I think it can work but you still need outside magnets but then they are further apart from source and are behind your neck or somewhere in that area. I just think it's more pratical to have them attract each other.

And what if they actedantally flip somehow. They end up attracting each other and crash on to back of your mouth and actually might kill you since those forces are really high. They might even get stuck there for couple of seconds if you don't react fast. However i will try how they interact and see what's possible. Maybe it's not so risky as i imagine it to be.

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Posted : 11/08/2020 3:00 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

Standard warning of me not advocating doing anything; I have zero knowledge if this would be safe or correct, so for the love of God, don't listen to me.

Obviously I haven't tested this, so the measurements could very well be wrong and the materials in the picture are just a demo because there's probably something better to use, but this is pretty much how the forward pulling device looks in my head. (Pic isn't me, by the way). Left side is the before/after of a mouthguard; the after is having all the parts touching your teeth be cut off (grey circles are magnets, which may or may not be covered up with something - I have no idea if magnets being in your mouth would be "poisonous" either), which would be covered in denture paste to get it to stick to the part of your jaw above your front teeth. It would only need to be able to withstand between 500 grams and a pound of pulling force, since generating any more would probably [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up your face anyways. I haven't been able to find an answer as to exactly how strong denture paste is, but if your mouth is going to be closed anyways, if it could support being pulled by any force at all, it's better than nothing. I'd like to hear opinions of this idea.

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Posted : 11/08/2020 3:46 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

I think magnets need to be held thigthly to mouth applience. They will expirience big forces. Although i like your model for applience i think we need a way to make magnets inside of some sort of non intrusive dental material. Just like Nelson did with is applience. Magnet being in middle wouldn't be able to detach. It would only crush device first.

If we can find a way to make magnets stick to that surface it would be better than my option.

 

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Posted : 11/08/2020 4:19 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@meowxilla Yeah, the problem is if it were going to be a frontal type of pull instead of a palate device, everything would have to be really thin, which poses a problem. Not to mention every type of adhesive having to be non-toxic, especially since most things you'll come across probably aren't oral-friendly. Your picture prompts a gag reflex just looking at it lol - if a palate device were used, how would the pulling force be equally distributed? It seems like if the magnetic force is coming from behind your teeth, even if they aren't being physically touched may cause them to tilt anyways, unless the headgear would be creating only an upward force.

 

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Posted : 11/08/2020 5:55 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@crimsonchin

We can somehow control for direction of force. Just place magnets more verticaly thus increasing angle. I don't know if we need force on theeth along with force on palate. If we do then that applience needs some kind of mouth part like you propoused with picture.

What do you mean by equal distribution of force? Whole applience acts as 1 object. It would perfectly fit in your palate cause it would be designed that way. Then applience is in contact with palate with whole area. Force then is evenly distributed. Aplience might tilt if magnets are acting in such way that it would make applience lose contact with palate (extreme angles) almost 15 degrees with horizontal plane. We should aim at 60 degrees with horizontal.

I am now thinking about combination of both. We need largest area for full force in order to move everything together. 

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Posted : 11/08/2020 6:38 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@meowxilla I guess by equal distribution I mean that if the device isn't actually connected like a normal headgear + appliance combo, it seems like if there was only one magnet being pulled from the middle that perhaps your whole jaw wouldn't be pulled forward at an equal rate or at equal pressure.

I just started wondering how much the palate device is needed (or at all). Of course it depends on how good at tongue posture you already are capable of, but in my case where it would seem my tongue posture is pretty decent yet hasn't really yielded any results in 4 years, you would have to wonder if it's because it really isn't correct or if it's due to a lack of force (which doesn't seem possible, because you can only exert so much force naturally or when not trying to). Maybe only the lack of a pulling force is the problem, since the normal tongue posture while using a pulling device would exhibit force in both directions. When it comes to normal mewing, I can see why tongue posture alone would make your midface better if everything is getting pushed up, but I don't really get why anything would actually go outwards if there's no force going that way.

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Posted : 11/08/2020 7:39 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@crimsonchin

It doesn't, that's because the idea of the maxilla going "up" is completely wrong and not actually how the maxilla grows. What actually happens is the maxilla grows forward, when the maxilla grows forward it rotates, the posterior portion comes DOWN and the anterior portion swings up. You need a forward force, NOT an upward force, upwards force makes absolutely no sense, if you push the tongue up what actually happens is your pushing against the molars/inside of the arch, causing lateral expansion, you are NOT pushing up on the maxilla when you push the tongue up. At the end of the day it all comes down to force, there's no magic behind it, if you want to grow the maxilla forward there needs to be a forward force. If you want forward growth from mewing you need to push the tongue forward, it's not natural tongue posture but then again hardmewing isn't exactly natural, you're not going to suction hold your way to a wider and fowards maxilla. What should "naturally" happen is having your tongue on the roof of the mouth from birth, the natural growth of the tongue would grow the maxilla. When you're already grown, putting the tongue on the roof of the mouth and adopting "natural" tongue posture, ie suction hold will do absolutely nothing. Mewing is not natural, what's natural is having a big, flat palate that the tongue instantly suctions to just by you closing your lips/mouth, if you're grown it's a simple matter of force.

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Posted : 12/08/2020 1:17 am
Basim liked
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@sinned Makes sense and most of what you say is obvious, yet I can't say I've ever seen anyone talk about it. Not sure if it even occurred to me until hours ago. Could you elaborate on what a forward force using the tongue would look like?

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Posted : 12/08/2020 2:17 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@crimsonchin

It's pretty self explanatory, I'd caution to not push forward on the teeth. I made that mistake initially and my front teeth became sore/sensitive, if I had continued pushing forward on the front teeth I think they would have probably flared out. So now, I'm pushing above the front teeth, where the alveolar bone is. I read a study that the tongue can exert a decent amount of "protrusion" force which is promising, they measured max protrusion force of the tongue for 2-5 seconds, it ranged from 14-17 newtons of force. Obviously you're not going to be able to do maintain this much force for long, but you can maintain a fraction of that force for the whole day (not while asleep though, I tried and it didn't work), I'm able to maintain an ok amount of forward force the whole day.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640594/

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Posted : 12/08/2020 3:05 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

Question is, can average person have result with mewing?

I think there is a really small amount of people who can have big athestic changes with mewing as adults. Those people need imense tounge strength and discipline. 

15N of force max is very nice. However due to lack of results from a lot of people i think it's just not good enough relaible thing to do. 

Maybe we find conviniet magnet setup which is not harmful so it aids us with faster results.

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Posted : 12/08/2020 8:05 am
mac
 mac
New Member

@ Meowxilla

The sooner this community admits that mewing does not work for most, the sooner we can move on to other ideas to try and fix it.  With the lack of results via mewing this should be obvious, but for some reason most simply don't want to admit it.  Mewing makes all logical sense and it is the natural position the tongue should be in, but the reality is that most people skulls are so poorly developed that mewing is simply not enough to reverse the damage, at least for the vast majority of people.  It seems obvious at this point that devices and other ideas are needed at least to jump start the reversal of improper skull development.

Speaking from my own background, I tried mewing for many months with no progress and decided to start use of palate expander.  At this point I have expanded over 5mm with my expander but I cannot even keep my expansion with mewing let alone make more.  If I don't wear my expander for day or more I start to lose expansion no matter how I mew or how hard I push.  I have tried several different tongue positions, hard mewing, soft mewing with no results.  I know from reading what many have said around the internet that mewing has provided little to no results.  

Hopefully this thread will start a change within this community, it is desperately needed.  It should not take years to get what amounts to a few mm of growth if any at all and that is the results most get via mewing.  

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Posted : 12/08/2020 8:15 pm
Basim liked
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@mac

I think it's psychological defense mechanism. Pepole will do anything to not face their helplessness. "You can be attractive, just mew, it's free and it works".

Yeah it works , it helps with your general health. But pepole can't ever make good comparisons. They want to believe it to be true so it is true for them. I however want it to be true since i am really Fuckd up due to my face which is maybe little below average but i can't accept it. My willingness to go for truth can't ever be stopped even if emotional part of brain wants it to be true.

I don't want to bash on religions but i can't think of better example than religions. If billions of people believe things cause they want them to be true ofc it will happen with something presented as scientific method like Mewing.

As i said before it might work but we 90% of people are already too far behind to even catch up with their biologicaly natural functioning. We need devices to fix these problems.

It's okay if you don't care about it. But here people maybe obsess too much. I am not saying it's bad. We are most likely to make a change but it can have negative impact on your self esteem and mental health. 

In theory if you mewed whole day i think it would be somewhat effective but really slow. As always in this culture, everything is focused on instant gratification and you can be anything you want type of thing. Very few people actually put effort into things such as this.

So maybe some gems are hidden and mewing "works". It's not that mewing works or dosen't. It's not black and white. It's how you do it and how much. We have evidence of bones remodeling. That's all you need to know. Now how much effort you put in is how much results you will get.

Sometimes your 100% is not enough. Thus we need help from devices. If i put maybe 90% i maybe could get slow results over 5 years. But i want it faster. For some it will never happen and that's hard to accept i think. Sooner you do, sooner you can actaully find real solution. HEck even make your solution like we are trying here with this magnet idea. Probably won't work without problems but i think in principle it can. 

We need agressive methods.

Facepulling , thumbpulling , beltpulling , palate expanding. More if you know some other methods. We need to test them and stick to process. We need people describing their expiriences. Some posts actually do. I appriciate that very much. Because of you being dedicated we have more data. We are frontiers of changing face. But i think we need more "tests" and "expiriences"

 

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Posted : 12/08/2020 11:50 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

I was looking on Amazon for magnets and found there's something called magnetic tape. Perhaps this could be a good alteration for my mouthguard + denture paste idea instead of putting magnets inside of it. I still haven't read anything about magnets (or magnetic anything) being safe or not to put in your mouth, though.

https://www.amazon.com/Flexible-Magnetic-Tape-Adhesive-Refrigerator/dp/B07PTSW1M9/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=magnetic+tape&qid=1597293175&sr=8-6

 

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Posted : 13/08/2020 12:33 am
CrimsonChin
Active Member

So is this idea dead?

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Posted : 23/08/2020 3:48 pm
Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

I like the idea of using magnets in theory because it could make an appliance pulse.

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Posted : 23/08/2020 7:06 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@crimsonchin

No, i am waiting for magnets to arrive and i will test how they behave on their own outside mouth. I will do expiriments and see what is possible with magnets alone. Next i will buy or try to build some form of headgear to attach magnets and test how to wear this part of device. 

Next i will buy ingrediens and construct mouth applience with magnets or if not possible since i am short on budget i will try to contact orthodontic lab so they build me one with my guidlines.

It will take at least 2 months. If somebody want's to test and experiment with me i am happy to exchange ideas. However i don't want you to hurt yourself or to say this is not harmless. I think this could be dangerous but first i need to test magnets.

I am fully commited into trying to build live device. Will update this thread with further progress.

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Posted : 23/08/2020 8:46 pm
CrimsonChin
Active Member

@meowxilla OK; it's nice to hear how committed you are to the idea. I figured other people would be chiming in with input since it seems to be a rare potential beacon of hope.

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Posted : 23/08/2020 11:54 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

I have been thinking about helmet which would have least complications of attaching magnets onto them. First i tought of typical rugby, cricket, hokey, baseball helmets but they have a flaw , not major but kind of flaw for magnets. 

Magnetic field becomes less dense really fast and these helmets have few inches form your nose where inside magnet will be located in applience.

We want something really close to nose and possibly that your ears are free so that you can use headphones with helmet and applience. Bassicaly you would be free to move how you want.

Magnets goes behind arrow it it can fit and if not of course other side is free. If you could wear metalic helmet maybe you won't even need to tape magnets onto nasal metal part. They would stick on that with force of 800N so yeah. They won't wobble. But you can micro manage them around to achieve perfect pulling angle.

I am getting optimistic for this.

With this 20 N of constant pressure onto pallate but with same direction as tounge is litterally mewing on steroids.

I think that maxium force tounge can generate is around 18N male 15.5 female.( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640594/ ) We can have this effect for 12 hours a day and maybe even more force if we wished but that might be counter productive.

I need to find perfect ratio of bone apsorption vs formation. I don't know what is preferable. Might need input or help. If i knew which one is prefered pressure can be calculated to have maximum efficiency. (Could be less than 20N or more, dosen't matter).

 

I think this is the way to go with magnet facepullers. Facemask helemts are really pratical for rubberbands but not for magnets. I mean they could work if magnets were closer but building custom facemask close to nose is challenging without tools but can be done.

 

EDIT :

Then something like this is preferable over football and cricket helmets. It could be more stable on head than medival helmet but i am afraid both would move around with 20N of force applied.

 I think both helmets could work. But i need a way to stabilize both.

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Posted : 24/08/2020 8:55 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

Update

My 20mm x 3mm round magnets arrived. I have played with them and found 2 major flaws.

  • Extremly dangerous

Even this small magnets when at 0 distance have force of 50N between them. To split them apart agian you need force of 50 N. I tried putting them in mouth to feel how would they interact and then found another problem but will discuss it later. Magnets got out of control due to no structure and my naivety/stupidity. They pinched my top lip and all i can say it was not pleasant. Skin on my lip was ripped off and it started bleeding imidiately. Imagine taking a punch to your lip. I don't want to show graphic content you can google it (bleeding lip) similar to that. This magnets are only smallest combination. Even smallest magnets have extremely strong magnetic field at surface (2,126 gauss). Their effectiviness drops to useless at 1 inch though. Now force is only 0.2N. So from 50N to 0.2N in 1 inch of distance. This won't crush your bones but can rip off skin. When we get to larger magnets it becomes deadly litteraly.

Magnets i need to achieve 20N of force at 1 inch have 400N of force at 0 inches. Force expenantionly increases with smaller distance. So they need to be extremely stable or you are going to crush your maxilla and whole face possibly dying in process.

Good thing i tried this with small magnets first. Some of you would already call me idiot (and i agree). I DON'T reccomend this to ANYONE at this point.

Solution :

Have magnets extremely controlled. Inside magnets is in applience and shouldn't move at all in unwanted directions. Outside magnet however needs to be extremely secure on helmet of choice. I don't know how to exactly achieve this but i think it can be done.

When trying to set up applience and helmet to work. ALWAYS put intraoral applience first. Then slowely put helmet on your head. Trying to put it after helmet risks attracting it with 400N of force. Good luck surviving that. Thus sleeping with this is out of question. You simply can't leave this without attention.

  • Force vector problem

Magnets want to be alligned at their dipople moments. Essentially making them always parralel by biggest surfaces. This induces rotation and weakeens pulling. This can be used as advantage. With this we can achieve some sort of pressure at soft palate (like tounge would) due to rotation.

Instead of magnets inside applience we can use metal. Metal would be attracted always in same way. There is no "optimal" energy setup and some disstance. Of course when close , magnets and metal want highest surface. But there is no induced rotation due to dipole moments trying to alling themselves.

This is has different force. less rotation and more true pulling. Think of it as just pulling straight towards magnet. It depends on what do we want to achieve. However i think we would want to replicate force as tounge does. I have to think more about which one is better option then.

 

I think i am going to research magnet safety further and with this extreme dangerous drawback i think this really hard or impossible to achieve without severe risks. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted : 26/08/2020 2:27 pm
Fluffycutecat
Eminent Member

When people accidently swallow magnets and don’t seek immediate medical attention, it is often fatal as it can seriously interfere with blood supply, causing blood clots in the gut in the mild cases, and ruining the intestinal wall in more serious cases. So I wouldn’t recommend putting any sort of magnet near the head in the way you’re describing. 

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Posted : 28/08/2020 4:04 pm
LemonadeJoe
New Member

@meowxilla

While I think this idea is utterly [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated], and there have already been better methods invented (N2 implant), I have a suggestion for you:

Why dont you use an electromagnet? That way you can safely position the metal (or a fitting magnet inside your mouth) and THEN turn on the electromagnet thats on the outside

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Posted : 21/09/2020 10:09 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@lemonadejoe

This is do it on your own project. I don't know how to make electromagnets. If i could and if it were strong enough i would replace it as you suggest. However i am skeptical if those magnest would be able to run 12h/day.

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Posted : 21/09/2020 12:42 pm
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @mac

@ Meowxilla

The sooner this community admits that mewing does not work for most, the sooner we can move on to other ideas to try and fix it.  With the lack of results via mewing this should be obvious, but for some reason most simply don't want to admit it.  Mewing makes all logical sense and it is the natural position the tongue should be in, but the reality is that most people skulls are so poorly developed that mewing is simply not enough to reverse the damage, at least for the vast majority of people.  It seems obvious at this point that devices and other ideas are needed at least to jump start the reversal of improper skull development.

Speaking from my own background, I tried mewing for many months with no progress and decided to start use of palate expander.  At this point I have expanded over 5mm with my expander but I cannot even keep my expansion with mewing let alone make more.  If I don't wear my expander for day or more I start to lose expansion no matter how I mew or how hard I push.  I have tried several different tongue positions, hard mewing, soft mewing with no results.  I know from reading what many have said around the internet that mewing has provided little to no results.  

Hopefully this thread will start a change within this community, it is desperately needed.  It should not take years to get what amounts to a few mm of growth if any at all and that is the results most get via mewing.  

Totally agree for most mewers in this community. Even someone like me at 17, I would still try to do this as there not much time before the bones get harder to move and get health and aesthetics benefits like Ronald Ead did with MSE. I wonder how much force did the MSE did to his palate to split the suture. It would have been a great thing to know how much force to give us an idea of how much force to move these sturdy bones. 

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Posted : 22/09/2020 7:47 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@basim

I think MSE is around 15N of force with CONSTANT pressure.

However you don't need that much for bone remodeling. For suture spliting i think it's above lower limit by a little bit. It's unclear if bone remodeling does actually require constant light force or few instants of large force. However tenis players have thicker bones on their dominant amrs. Also there is evidence for slow bone remodeling within tribal anectodal evidence, how they attach things to guide bone growth.

What i am trying to achieve is some form of closed mouth device which would force along tounge preassure vector. Usual mouth appliences require rubber bands of some sort and i want to do it fully closed so either insane hardmewing at 80% of load for 12h or some force at distance like magnets. 

Electromagnets sound interesting. I wonder if they are strong enough and how to make them practical. Would absolutely replace outside magnet with electromagnet anytime of day.

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Posted : 22/09/2020 6:32 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

Let’s say we need about 10-12 N to create the suture split with constant pressure for 4-8 hours and create the pressure of a stronger tongue with more forward force while allowing the tongue to be on the roof of the mouth to do habitual mewing. We need to wear at least for 30 minutes and at max maybe 4 hours before becoming uncomfortable and painful and also able to chew and doing normal activities with no problems. Lastly able to have our lips sealed is the biggest factor since the tongue and the face mask need sealed lips to create bone remodeling on sutures from the pressure we are applying. Ideally this is what my face mask would try to be and act like and for most people

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Posted : 24/09/2020 1:40 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member

MSE is trash, expansion is garbage and doesn't produce forward growth. Also just use your tongue, it's not that hard, you will not get faster forward growth by using devices because you are limited by the remodelling speed of the mandible and it's attachment points, too fast and you will get TMJ.

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Posted : 24/09/2020 5:40 pm
Fluffycutecat
Eminent Member

@auxiliarus Apart from literally one person (Helmutstrebl), no adult has shown any significant results of bone remodelling from tongue posture alone. Mike Mew recently did a video on one of his adult patients and there was no change at all. 

Also didn’t Mike Mew say that the mandible doesn’t remodel but just follows the maxilla forwards? I don’t see how the mandible swinging up will cause jaw problems.

So it would make sense to use a face pulling device to move the maxilla forward, wouldn’t it?

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Posted : 24/09/2020 6:10 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @fluffycutecat

@auxiliarus Apart from literally one person (Helmutstrebl), no adult has shown any significant results of bone remodelling from tongue posture alone. Mike Mew recently did a video on one of his adult patients and there was no change at all. 

Also didn’t Mike Mew say that the mandible doesn’t remodel but just follows the maxilla forwards? I don’t see how the mandible swinging up will cause jaw problems.

So it would make sense to use a face pulling device to move the maxilla forward, wouldn’t it?

I don't know, I've had good results from mewing, I am very satisfied right now with the results. As for Mike's patients, I am skeptical of Mike, he only focuses on upwards force, of course there will be no bone remodelling except the maxilla and especially the palate widening. His instructions do not create any kind of forward force nor any kind of suction to bring the posterior palate downwards.

He's biased against long faces when I see people with good forward growth and narrow palates all the time. If you want to be succesful in mewing forget the idea that widening the palate will cause forward growth, that's just some bullshit that Mike made up which makes no sense. You need to literally move your palate forward relative to the head.

 

And yes it does make sense if you're not able to get a good mewing form, but this idea will bring trouble, the magnet needs to create force everywhere, not just one place, otherwise you will narrow your palate.

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Posted : 25/09/2020 4:00 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@auxiliarus

MSE will move your maxilla 1mm foward on average. Still not good enough. 

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Posted : 25/09/2020 7:41 am
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

MSE is trash, expansion is garbage and doesn't produce forward growth. Also just use your tongue, it's not that hard, you will not get faster forward growth by using devices because you are limited by the remodelling speed of the mandible and it's attachment points, too fast and you will get TMJ.

The problem with that is that if you don’t have enough space with your molars. Placing the tongue on the roof of your mouth is going to be very hard and uncomfortable and longer to get results. MSE allows the suture to be split to allow the tongue to grow in size and match the palate the MSE created. Forward growth is more important than Transverse growth of the maxilla. However another component of mewing that is very important is breathing. If you can’t breath because your nasal cavity or airway is small then you can’t force your way with the tongue alone to a better position of the maxilla. We need a force that creates more pressure than the tongue does to cause distractions on the sutures and palate to disrupt and move the whole maxilla entirely in a short period of time. However practice nasal breathing and Mewing anyway to gauge how your body feels with this new input of your posture. And establishing Nasal breathing a big thing most mewers overlook where MSE does give you the ability to do so.

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Posted : 27/09/2020 8:59 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @basim
Posted by: @auxiliarus

MSE is trash, expansion is garbage and doesn't produce forward growth. Also just use your tongue, it's not that hard, you will not get faster forward growth by using devices because you are limited by the remodelling speed of the mandible and it's attachment points, too fast and you will get TMJ.

The problem with that is that if you don’t have enough space with your molars. Placing the tongue on the roof of your mouth is going to be very hard and uncomfortable and longer to get results. MSE allows the suture to be split to allow the tongue to grow in size and match the palate the MSE created. Forward growth is more important than Transverse growth of the maxilla. However another component of mewing that is very important is breathing. If you can’t breath because your nasal cavity or airway is small then you can’t force your way with the tongue alone to a better position of the maxilla. We need a force that creates more pressure than the tongue does to cause distractions on the sutures and palate to disrupt and move the whole maxilla entirely in a short period of time. However practice nasal breathing and Mewing anyway to gauge how your body feels with this new input of your posture. And establishing Nasal breathing a big thing most mewers overlook where MSE does give you the ability to do so.

Those are just errors of the faulty method of mewing that is being spread everywhere. If you close your airway that means you're mewing wrong, you're not tensing the right muscle. Even Mike said it in a video.

As for the teeth, the tongue can change it's shape, if you tense it forward it will become narrower, allowing you to place it on the roof and widen your teeth.

And you don't need more force than the tongue, friend, the tongue is already too powerful.

 

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Posted : 28/09/2020 4:38 am
mateogon
Active Member
Posted by: @meowxilla

Hello everybody. I have been thinking about how to actually add more preassure on maxilla since i think touge alone won't help me get results i want. I will soon be 21 , (20 days) and life is ticking by. 

I think small enough magnet can be put inside removable applience which can only sit on roof on your mouth.

Some Neodymium magnets have force up to 35N when in contact and i think they are small enough so that they fit inside regular appliance.

Now we have completely removed any wires on or unnecessary stuff from mouth.

Other magnet is placed outside of mouth near your face on metal bar. Now magnets attract each other , not with 35N but less due to distance. This whole structure with metal bar sits on some kind of support , either headgear or neck gear, dosen't matter really. Something which does not add force to your face.

 

I think this could really work. Any thoughts? It seems revolutionary.

 

Something like this but without wires and neodymium magnet is in middle. 

sounds good but the magnets needs to be fixed very well, or they will slip and crush your skull/teeth

 
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Posted : 02/10/2020 9:11 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

Update

 

My helmet arrived. Now all i need is remaining big magnets and some intraoral appliance with smaler magnet inside.

Helmet is sturdy and uncofortable at first, it's size L. However luckily thick gumish/plastic material protects head from outside blows so i can remove it since it's only making preassure on my temporal muslces (around that area is most preassure).

You can see smaller magnet on outside, if i placed larger rectangular one there and if i somehow tape / glue them i think risk of them sliding is very small. Maybe they would slide but not on my face since force with which they are attracted to steel is much much greater then froce will be from inside mouth. So i think i have that covered.

From my research , magnets aren't harmful to neourological processes and have minor impact on bloodflow inside insane magnetic fields (1T+)

 

You can see smaller magnet on steel mouthgaurd. This is where larger magnets would be.

If magnets prove to be unsucsesful and i stil get mouth appliance built i will document further progress with facepulling on myself but with similar method to Plato's facepulling.

 

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Posted : 05/10/2020 7:15 am
Fluffycutecat
Eminent Member

Thanks for the update. I’m looking forward to see how this progresses, assuming it’s indeed safe.

Just curious, what’s your opinion regarding the dowden face pulling appliance? I don’t know if elastics would provide the force required to remodel, but the graph you provided above shows that too much force would be detrimental to remodelling the face.

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Posted : 05/10/2020 9:32 am
Sergio-OMS
Trusted Member
Posted by: @meowxilla

Hello everybody. I have been thinking about how to actually add more preassure on maxilla since i think touge alone won't help me get results i want. I will soon be 21 , (20 days) and life is ticking by. 

I think small enough magnet can be put inside removable applience which can only sit on roof on your mouth.

Some Neodymium magnets have force up to 35N when in contact and i think they are small enough so that they fit inside regular appliance.

Now we have completely removed any wires on or unnecessary stuff from mouth.

Other magnet is placed outside of mouth near your face on metal bar. Now magnets attract each other , not with 35N but less due to distance. This whole structure with metal bar sits on some kind of support , either headgear or neck gear, dosen't matter really. Something which does not add force to your face.

 

I think this could really work. Any thoughts? It seems revolutionary.

 

Something like this but without wires and neodymium magnet is in middle. 

No offense, but this is one of the weirdest things I have found online regarding this topic  (and I have read A LOT)

By the way, have you calculated the applied force? I mean considering the distance...

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Posted : 05/10/2020 9:40 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@fluffycutecat

Just to be clear so people don't missuse my quotes. I can't recommend any of this nor do i know if it's safe. Learn from my progress along with me.

Dowden seems uncomfortable and has chin support. Best attribute is actually that you are able to do it yourself and that it in theory has best force vector of all other facepulling devices i have seen. It's becasue it's inside mouth that it makes it almost act like tounge. Force does not need to be great, monkey had 4mm change in 90 days but 24h of 5N force.

Tounge is capable of 16N of force with max effort, sometging that is good but can't be sustained for longer periods.

Link to monkee http://www.aljabri.com/blog/understanding-the-monkey-experiments-that-inspired-mewing/

There are some other promissing cases or adult studies which actually tried facepulling but with medical guidance/supervision.

Okay now to cons: Mouth has to be open due to nails sticking between theeth and not going around. Best case is if it only required small part of lips to be open and that theeth are in contact.

That's my main motivation for magnets. To increase mouth confort by not requiring it to be slightly open.

Also another concer is that his applience gets irritating after wearing, he commented on it that he would later add silicon layer for comfort.

I don't know how it all being supported on chin would turn out but obviously it could remodel chin into more recessed position. My helmet does not have that effect.

 

Too much force in my mind damages tissue faster then it can be repaired. Bone constantly grows and dies when under preassure, at least i think that.

However 20N of force is max i would safetly want to go with. I would be aming at 10N of force and around 16h or weartime, including sleeping with helmet.

Force is easily calculated with some basic formulas and we can change force by removing outside magnets so we get desired effeect.

To do:

Find stable magnet configuration so they don't collapse on face

Build intraoral applience with small magnet inside 

If this fails , switch to rubberband facepulling.

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Posted : 05/10/2020 9:50 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@sergio-oms

I can basically choose applied force by choosing correct magnets. It does not matter. I am aiming for 10N to 20N max.

I am weird i know... Too extremist at times.

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Posted : 05/10/2020 9:51 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

Update

My bigger outside magnet just arrived after 57 days from ordrering it.

Finally i had chance to test how would it all come together (magnets + helmet). At first outside magnet is not strong enough to make any force at distance it's required. However i am waiting for 2 more of them to t.

 

 This is how it looks right now, i will probably switch magnet on outside part of mouthgaurd, it almost already touches my nose and with 3 stacked i think there won't be enough space. I can easily adjust vector just by moving it around before fixing with additional tape or something else, don't have that planed out still.

Good thing is that my field of view is not obstructed a lot by this, i can study, play games, play piano, insert any introverted hobby.

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Posted : 06/10/2020 9:14 am
Basim
Eminent Member

Will you make video on this if this becomes successful?

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Posted : 06/10/2020 7:22 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@basim

Yes but i am far from it actually being sucsesful. Atm i am scared that magnest would be too weak, after that i need lunatic orthodontic labarotory which would agree to placing magnets inside acrilicy apliance.

If magnets are indeed weak i need to wait for more of them to arrive. Which it seems requires around 30-60 days.

If nobody does that i need to get my own materials which is costly for me atm and would further delay this project.

 

Yeah if i do everything i am willing to make guide/video but almost everything i did is documented here. It's idea that matters mostly.

 

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Posted : 07/10/2020 8:37 am