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Mandible recessed. Maxilla rotation.  

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Astroskyoffical
Verified Account

My name is Austin.  Iv been mewing properly for 3 years now.  7 years total with the prior years incorrectly due to my back posture not being fixed till recently. 

Im wanting some advice and I hope to uncover answers.    

My bite classification would Be overbite.  Front teeth over bottom.   

Since mewing I definitely have documented a good forward growth progression but with one deficient.  

My mandible

from all the research Iv came up with.  It’s seems my Maxilla is rotated too far in a downwards direction, and what I mean by that is my back mouth is higher up than the front.

with this information I figured out (And with Johns  mews agreement). 

I haven’t been mewing correctly 

 

what i should have been doing is protracting my jaw when I chew but return to normal bite when at rest. 

Press more frontal than back back with tongue and find ways to induce growth of my pre maxilla and rotate it in reverse .

 

the biting forwards part is something new I figured out.   Different chewing patterns seem to influence maxilla rotation and growth.     

 

Heres a video i I was showing to my audience.     In this video I adjust my bite to have my front teeth aligned . https://www.instagram.com/p/B4WKPiIhU5r/?igshid=5ee2adydizfs

Basically I go from overbite to open bite.      I lose contact with my back teeth when I adjust my bite.   But it shows me my mandible is set back 

anyone  have any input or feedback?  Would you say my thoughts are in the right direction?

 

thanks

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4WKPiIhU5r/?igshid=5ee2adydizfs

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Posted : 02/11/2019 9:55 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Have you been engaging your posterior third with a suction hold? The premise of this is it will drop the maxilla down and rotate it counterclockwise. It helps with deep bites such as yours (assuming that is what you have).

But your Instagram post shows me that your lower arch hasn't caught up with your widened upper arch. I say this because you can protract your mandible a few millimeters and your front teeth still align without an underbite. This of course is a common problem for those not usimg devices. Have you looked into lower arch expansion? That will make your bite fit inside the upper jaw without it being so far back. 

See, increasing your palatal width on top without changing the bottom will just mean that any expansion up top will require you to protract your mandible forward for front teeth to touch correctly. My theory is it can only be corrected by changing the pitch of the maxilla to make the bite more open and to drop the upper molars down to meet the lower ones. If not this, then an expander for the lower jaw would cause all your teeth to touch, as opposed to just an either/or scenario. 

So 2 approaches here basically. Either widen the lower arch or just change the pitch of the upper jaw. However, the 2nd one is incredibly hard/expensive to do. I am sure you can see the tongue do this eventually but it will take a while. IMO you may want to keep your front teeth aligned as opposed to molars touching at rest. I think keeping your molars touching at rest will just keep your maxilla rotated clockwise which will make your overbite more pronounced over time. 

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Posted : 03/11/2019 11:54 am
Astroskyoffical
Verified Account

@eddiemoney.  Here's my bite being adjusted.  Excused the bad quality.   Notice how my back teeth all lose contact but my front teeth touch.     Well some of them.    Should I just move my mandible forward 24/7?

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Posted : 03/11/2019 4:42 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Just as I suspected. Your upper arch has gotten so wide that your bite becomes deep and you must protract to maintain proper incisor contact or retract for molar contact. In other words, proper contact between molars and between incisors simultaneously isn't possible due to the pitch of your maxilla. 

The thing is, molar contact isn't what you need because it will only reinforce your current occlusion. I would say let your jaw hang in the front position. You can touch teeth or not if you'd like. I myself don't touch teeth at rest. 

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Posted : 03/11/2019 10:05 pm
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member
Posted by: @astroskyoffical

My name is Austin.  Iv been mewing properly for 3 years now.  7 years total with the prior years incorrectly due to my back posture not being fixed till recently. 

@astroskyoffical Could you elaborate on what was wrong with your back posture, and what you did to fix it?

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Posted : 04/11/2019 8:11 am
andreakv
Active Member

Front incisors shouldn't normally meet as in the position as you showed. I would however place the contact of molars as a bigger priority than incisors meeting. And I also do not think that this even close to a deep bite. 

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Posted : 05/11/2019 1:54 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @andreakv

Front incisors shouldn't normally meet as in the position as you showed. I would however place the contact of molars as a bigger priority than incisors meeting. And I also do not think that this even close to a deep bite. 

People with consistent molar contact do end up shortening their face. But their maxilla always stays clockwise rotated. So their lower third will stay short. Not exactly the best way to progress with oral posture.

Ideally teeth shouldn't touch at rest at all. The muscles of the jaw should hold it in place, not the pressure against teeth. 

Why do you advise against incisor contact? Not that I personally engage in this practice myself. But keeping his molars in constant pressure will reinforce the clockwise rotation. 

And while his bite isn't as deep as others, you can clearly see his maxilla is much wider than his lower arch. Eventually this will not become favorable and his bite will get very deep unless he changes his oral posture to allow hid maxilla to rotate counterclockwise a bit. Let his tongue pull the soft palate down to allow more bite opening and ramus lengthening.

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Posted : 05/11/2019 11:18 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@Jamo @neveragain experienced such facial shortening to where his upper arch went really into a bad overbite due to his very wide palate due to the mandible not catching up. Big proponent of chewing, too. Overdoing the molar contact/chewing isn't going to help if the lower arch can't keep up. The bite would end up much deeper over time. 

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Posted : 05/11/2019 11:21 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member

@EddieMoney So is the suction on the soft palate both necessary and sufficient for CCW rotation of the maxilla? And hence favorable facial shortening of the midface?

 

Also, it looked like @neveragain shortened his midface thru CCW rotation even though he was chewing heavily(I believe 8 hrs a day? not 100% sure on that). Do you believe that's due to his suction on the soft palate when mewing the other hours of the day, which allowed for CCW rotation?

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Posted : 06/11/2019 12:10 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @qwerty135

@EddieMoney So is the suction on the soft palate both necessary and sufficient for CCW rotation of the maxilla? And hence favorable facial shortening of the midface?

 

Also, it looked like @neveragain shortened his midface thru CCW rotation even though he was chewing heavily(I believe 8 hrs a day? not 100% sure on that). Do you believe that's due to his suction on the soft palate when mewing the other hours of the day, which allowed for CCW rotation?

I don't think Jamo had CCW rotation based on what he said. He said his bite became like a Class 2 which meant that more than likely it rotated clockwise .

I don't even know if he shortened his midface considering we never saw his actual face. His face did look more compact but also a bit bloated. Nice side profile but face gains I am not sure of

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Posted : 06/11/2019 8:32 am
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@EddieMoney I mew engaging the prosterior third, have good body posture and teeth in contact at all times. Will this give me a deep bite and rotate my maxilla the wrong way?

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Posted : 06/11/2019 9:28 am
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EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@EddieMoney I mew engaging the prosterior third, have good body posture and teeth in contact at all times. Will this give me a deep bite and rotate my maxilla the wrong way?

I don't think so unless you overdo chewing

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Posted : 06/11/2019 11:59 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

Something I have experienced: 

Hardmewing with no teeth contact with most force on the front third. After a few hours, my even bite has turned into a back molar only bite.....

After repositioning and eating I fix it. 

But what was actually happening? were the upper front teeth raising? were the lower front teeth lower?

 

Best face forward on youtube is wearing a specially designed appiance, which keeps his back molars separated while he eats, in order to solidify changes to his bite. So then instead of a molar only bite he will have a more even bite, which will cause his jaw to rotate counter clockwise.

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Posted : 07/11/2019 6:08 am
Astroskyoffical
Verified Account

@eddiemoney

Can you explain why I should adjust my bite.   Considering mike mew says don’t       I feel like moving my bite forward would cause my teeth to tip.   Also I gain facial height (in a bad way)

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Posted : 07/11/2019 3:02 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @astroskyoffical

@eddiemoney

Can you explain why I should adjust my bite.   Considering mike mew says don’t       I feel like moving my bite forward would cause my teeth to tip.   Also I gain facial height (in a bad way)

What facial height would you gain in a bad way? What did Mike Mew say in regard to this?

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Posted : 08/11/2019 8:11 am
Astroskyoffical
Verified Account

@eddiemoney

I mean if I keep my teeth open. Not in contact.  How would that not cause my face to downswing.    Also the facial height makes me look bad from the front but ok from the wide.  It messes with my lips and causes my face to take on a ugly long appearance.  

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Posted : 08/11/2019 9:49 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

The face wouldn't downswing because your tongue and facial muscles are engaged to keep your face lifted. Because your posture is good not because your molars touch.

I think try touching your incisors vs your molars. Then see which brings better change. 

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Posted : 09/11/2019 12:09 am
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

Something I have experienced: 

Hardmewing with no teeth contact with most force on the front third. After a few hours, my even bite has turned into a back molar only bite.....

After repositioning and eating I fix it. 

But what was actually happening? were the upper front teeth raising? were the lower front teeth lower?

 

Best face forward on youtube is wearing a specially designed appiance, which keeps his back molars separated while he eats, in order to solidify changes to his bite. So then instead of a molar only bite he will have a more even bite, which will cause his jaw to rotate counter clockwise.

Posting both my messages together here.

Correct me if I am wrong-  so the front teeth are suppose to be vertically higher than the back teeth, but the back teeth are suppose to be vertically higher than the middle teeth? this is what I see on some ancient skulls.....

 for example:  vertical height :

back 5

mid 4

front 6

 so the teeth start at 5, curve down to a 4, and then the front teeth curve up to a 6.....   thoughts?

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Posted : 09/11/2019 3:01 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

Something I have experienced: 

Hardmewing with no teeth contact with most force on the front third. After a few hours, my even bite has turned into a back molar only bite.....

After repositioning and eating I fix it. 

But what was actually happening? were the upper front teeth raising? were the lower front teeth lower?

 

Best face forward on youtube is wearing a specially designed appiance, which keeps his back molars separated while he eats, in order to solidify changes to his bite. So then instead of a molar only bite he will have a more even bite, which will cause his jaw to rotate counter clockwise.

Posting both my messages together here.

Correct me if I am wrong-  so the front teeth are suppose to be vertically higher than the back teeth, but the back teeth are suppose to be vertically higher than the middle teeth? this is what I see on some ancient skulls.....

 for example:  vertical height :

back 5

mid 4

front 6

 so the teeth start at 5, curve down to a 4, and then the front teeth curve up to a 6.....   thoughts?

Pics?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/11/2019 3:49 pm
Limbo6
Active Member

@eddiemoney

I know this entire thing is just theory, but eddie you talk a lot of nonsense in my opinion, not only in this thread but in many others too. 

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Posted : 19/11/2019 9:00 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @limbo6

@eddiemoney

I know this entire thing is just theory, but eddie you talk a lot of nonsense in my opinion, not only in this thread but in many others too. 

So you dislike what I post. Sorry to hear I guess?

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Posted : 19/11/2019 5:47 pm
Limbo6
Active Member

@eddiemoney

That thing you said about Jamo is absurd, as if you would read his threads he said his palate absolutely expanded and cheeks got wider so its absurd to conclude that he is a chewing succes and not a hard mewing succes.

About this post i see it again as absurd that not keeping your teeth together for benefit of astro and in regards to his question.

I want to say that i appreciate you and your contribution but i just think you are incorrect 

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Posted : 20/11/2019 3:02 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @limbo6

@eddiemoney

That thing you said about Jamo is absurd, as if you would read his threads he said his palate absolutely expanded and cheeks got wider so its absurd to conclude that he is a chewing succes and not a hard mewing succes.

About this post i see it again as absurd that not keeping your teeth together for benefit of astro and in regards to his question.

I want to say that i appreciate you and your contribution but i just think you are incorrect 

Jamo may have seen palatal expansion but in the pics pf him I have seen I have to be honest that all I saw were blown out masseters mostly. His facial aesthetics didn't seem to really improve much. He did end up with a shorter face and in his own words a very pronounced overbite due to his technique of chewing a lot. 

The whole idea of keeping teeth apart isn't even mine nor is it new. Dentists have been saying keep teeth apart for centuries. I just don't buy into the idea that teeth together at rest causes upswing or any sort of ideal facial shortening. If it does, it's probably shortening of the lower third and not of the midface. I kept my teeth together my whole life and still ended up with a Class 3 Maloclussion

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Posted : 20/11/2019 11:14 am
Limbo6
Active Member

@eddiemoney

Okay, so this would mean that john mew is wrong on the teeth causing a facial upswing in a good way. And also that he is in a way proposing dangerous practice (teeth together) 

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Posted : 20/11/2019 11:37 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @limbo6

@eddiemoney

Okay, so this would mean that john mew is wrong on the teeth causing a facial upswing in a good way. And also that he is in a way proposing dangerous practice (teeth together) 

I don't believe it is dangerous; I believe it is ineffective.

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Posted : 20/11/2019 7:16 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member
what i should have been doing is protracting my jaw when I chew but return to normal bite when at rest. 

@Astroskyoffical How are you supposed to be able to chew effectively in this position? And how would this correct the issue in question?

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Posted : 22/11/2019 6:56 am
printfactory
Eminent Member

I think I have a similar issue, my molars are much higher than my front teeth, and in my resting/chewing position only my molars touch and the incisors and canines don´t.

Starting to think molar contact is indeed detrimental in that case. How could the posterior part of the maxilla ever drop down if we continue exerting force on it by chewing and keeping molars in contact?

So resting the jaw in a more forward position seems to be logically. Only thing I worry about is that Mike Mew said differences between resting and chewing positions of the jaws can lead to TMJ.

 

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Posted : 22/01/2020 1:01 pm
ShaktiOm
Trusted Member

These two videos show proper healthy growth of the skull and face versus improper growth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4ycCgAJ6TQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C64e_cyy2As

The improper growth shown in the second video shows why most people do not have proper contact with their front teeth. The alveolar process portion of the maxilla, just below the nose, becomes lengthened and rounded as the mandible slips backwards into a recessed position.  Ideally, proper tongue posture and body posture, will initiate a counter clockwise rotation of the face and skull shortening the front portion of the alveolar process so that the front teeth can meet properly. My question is will the soft tissue and skin between the nose and lip shrink as well?

My analysis may be wrong, so anyone please feel free to correct me.

@printfactory  It seems to me that you don't really want the back portion of the maxilla to drop down, but you instead want the front lower portion of the maxilla to lift up or shorten. It sounds like in your case however, that you may have an open bite, which would be a different form of improper growth then the video I think. Or maybe you just have an overbite. For me personally, my bite always feels more natural when my incisors meet. Seems like this could also encourage the counter clockwise rotation more than molar contact. And my swallow feels more functional when I keep that contact throughout the tongue sweep and swallow.

I am currently breaking the habit of the incorrect swallow that is shown in the animation at 3:02 in this video. https://youtu.be/hWZt7TANrtY?t=181   Only difference is I do not thrust my tongue forward into my teeth. I tend to pull my jaw back as I pull my tongue back to initiate the tongue sweep. Wearing the myobrace has helped me a lot to break this habit.

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Posted : 22/01/2020 3:02 pm
ShaktiOm
Trusted Member

@printfactory

Point of correction... I should have said my bite feels more natural when my canines meet. Interestingly, when wearing my myobrace it brings my lower jaw forward, so that my front teeth are aligned much like AstroSky is displaying but without the contact. Will have to wait and see if this eventually shortens the lower front part of my maxilla and corrects my overbite.

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Posted : 23/01/2020 7:35 pm
HicEstLeoSperbus
New Member

@EddieMoney

If letting the back of the mandible would help a deep bite (by touching incisors instead of molars), would that cause the whole face to upswing? Would it affect the eye area?

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Posted : 12/05/2020 2:21 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @hicestleosperbus

@EddieMoney

If letting the back of the mandible would help a deep bite (by touching incisors instead of molars), would that cause the whole face to upswing? Would it affect the eye area?

Not sure, I don't touch incisors at rest. Brett Maverick made a vid years ago and he says he touches front teeth only. He seems to have decent maxillary development. But I never know what to believe as far as individual experiments

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Posted : 12/05/2020 2:39 pm