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Male vs Female- Who has the most counter clockwise maxilla?  

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facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

If a counterclockwise maxilla rotation increases lower facial hight on a man, does this mean that men naturally have more counterclockwise maxillas? 

Progress mentioned that tilting the head up slightly when pressing on the invisive papilla, allows for a better grip/activation of the back third. and i agree 

So why is tilting the head up seen as masculine? It's only a problem IF the jaw opens and IF the tongue disengages, but what if we can engage it, as our male ancestors would have been able to while tilting their heads.....

By increasing the distance for the posterior tongue to raise, there is more of a pulling force when you get it up.

Another reason why standing up, which naturally lengthens everything, could benifit our maxillas?

If gravity does effect our faces, then someone with a tilted up head would have a longer face, more CCW maxilla, less chin projection. Tilting the head down, which is seen as feminine, would shorten the face, increase chin projection, and clockwise rotate the maxilla.

So similar to how in Africa the mothers  carry children to lengthen their spine

men and woman could naturally be inclined (no pun intended) to tilt in a way that makes them a man or a woman..... possibly another way for a species to evolve an ability to recognize men vs woman.

Also, is it not true that taller people have more of an inclination to tilt their heads due to a longer neck? men are taller on average, and longer faced people are seen as leaders.....Is it actually just that men are seen as leaders, and having a long face makes it more recognizable that you are a man?

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Posted : 17/11/2019 6:12 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

A very forward grown maxilla is actually a feminine trait and also more ideal in women. Men have longer lower thirds due to larger jaw size and teeth.

Funny , the other day I was also thinking about the difference in head posture between men and women. I noticed men tend to have a worse posture than women. Your idea sounds plausible, a taller person with a longer neck has a harder time stabilizing his body against gravity.

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Posted : 17/11/2019 7:29 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@horatio

Thanks for bringing that up.  My understanding is that forward maxilla are more clockwise rotated. So that would line up with what I said in the OP

Might be wrong, but I think men naturally have a head that is further forward on the body, and possibly slightly more rounded upper back/shoulders naturally--- Making it more natural for men to tilt our heads up than woman.

Iv'e heard that chin tucking naturally moves the jaw upwards and pushes the face into a more compact direction. It may be more natural for woman to chin tuck and  men to stick out their neck/heads a bit more---which again lines up with the whole feminine/masculinity thing with woman being more reserved and conservative. 

I have ID photos where I tilted my head with a smirk on my face, thinking I was cool and that for some reason it made me more cool. Why did I think I was cool? More importantly, why did I tilt my head up? I also used to say hi to people 20 meters away by bumping my head up like this-(note this was before I developed a turkey neck last year)

edit: Looking at female surfers. I would say on average they have slighly longer faces and look more mascline than Miranda Kerr or Selena gomez. Could definetly just be due to the increased physical activity, but also possibly related to lifting the head more.

I think the modern world could be less harsh on woman than men. Men need more exercise, possibly more time in the sun (i say this because woman have developed ligher skin to help them get more vitamin D and calcium)  .  Based on what I have said in this thread, woman may also benifit more from looking down at phones and sitting at a desk looking down at a computer

 

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Posted : 17/11/2019 8:19 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I have never seen any consistent tendency. Women have overbites (CW rotation) as often as men do. But as was said by @Captain Horatio Hornblower a forward maxilla is more feminine since women's faces are shorter vertically than men's. Men can actually benefit from longer faces and mew lines than women. 

It's more aesthetic for a woman to have a short face. But if her masseters are overblown she looks odd. And this can accompany a short face too. So facial length isn't the only thing.

But maxillary rotation isn't the only thing that matters. Too many other factors at play on facial aesthetics and even facial length other than just rotation. For example people with bimax have CCW rotation at the alveolar ridge but their jaw projects weakly. 

So really men or women have varying angulation. What men have vs women is a vertically longer AND wider maxilla than women. 

Example: Class 3 male (myself). Flat occlusal plane (CCW rotated). Fixed head posture and now occlusal plane is CW rotated. But as this happens my maxilla has expanded laterally and slightly forward. Better aesthetics even with CW rotation. 

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Posted : 17/11/2019 10:03 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

bumping to see if this gets any more replies

will suction of the back third cause the molars to go up or down? It feels like pressure on the front palete causes upper incisors to go down not up. Paleolithic people would have exerted large upwards force on the back third when they swallow correct? And yet their molars were lower than the incisors......

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Posted : 18/11/2019 8:10 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

Pertinent to the thread, both are supermodels but look at the difference in their maxillae...

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Posted : 14/12/2019 3:18 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @horatio

Pertinent to the thread, both are supermodels but look at the difference in their maxillae...

One just looks vertically longer (male) but I don't see enough to determine occlusal plane.

I think women's maxillae may be more CW rotated due to more incidence of jaw clenching. 

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Posted : 14/12/2019 8:12 am
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

I think it has to do with the fact that males naturally have bigger and overall more massive rami. Women have smaller and shorter rami , so their maxilla has to grow forward in order to maintain a flat occlusal plane.

Also the male model is Tyson Ballou and he has a nearly flat occlusal plane despite having a relatively longish maxilla. That's possible thanks to his massive ramus, which happens to be a good example of the idea I described above.

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Posted : 14/12/2019 1:22 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @horatio

@eddiemoney

I think it has to do with the fact that males naturally have bigger and overall more massive rami. Women have smaller and shorter rami , so their maxilla has to grow forward in order to maintain a flat occlusal plane.

Also the male model is Tyson Ballou and he has a nearly flat occlusal plane despite having a relatively longish maxilla. That's possible thanks to his massive ramus, which happens to be a good example of the idea I described above.

Tbh both skulls look like the maxilla grew in the same direction. I think two people can have identical occlusal planes but very different ramus structure. If anything the male skull seems to exhibit greater prognathism (tooth inclination) than the female. 

Women's skulls grow less bone than males, so I think it's fair to say that even if you account for equal occlusal planes, the male maxilla will always be larger. Males do have a less shallow palate than women due to this. But being that men have more bone, the idea is that they would grow more forward and downward. Women are more neotenous facially so neither the maxilla nor mandible would grow as proportionately large as a man's. This is why women have shorter faces vertically. 

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Posted : 14/12/2019 7:59 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

The man and woman supermodels could both use CCW rotation 

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Posted : 14/12/2019 10:20 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

The man and woman supermodels could both use CCW rotation 

Why do you say that? Their development looks ideal.

Too much CCW rotation results in an anterior open bite. 

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Posted : 15/12/2019 11:12 am
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

1 Sign for me is they both have inverted upper lips and both seem to be lacking in the forward cheekbone look you get from CCW. 

I think the woman is.better developed, the mans cheekbone looks too sharp, which comes with CW.

The woman is almost idea, but she seems to have better horizontal zygomatic arch rather than idea CCW. She probably has a wide palete. 

If you look closely, it looks to me like her jaw curves up just a little too much under the anterior teeth, IDK

Both could probably use improvements to incisor angle.

Even the chicks bottom lip seems a bit off. Even when I cover the top lip, the lower still doesn't seem ideal. 

I'm definetly nit picking here though

The chick has a similar lip look that I do now that I rotated my maxilla clockwise. Upper incisors are pointing too far back, lower incisors are pointing too far out while possibly lagging behind the upper incisors

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Posted : 15/12/2019 4:12 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

1 Sign for me is they both have inverted upper lips and both seem to be lacking in the forward cheekbone look you get from CCW. 

I think the woman is.better developed, the mans cheekbone looks too sharp, which comes with CW.

The woman is almost idea, but she seems to have better horizontal zygomatic arch rather than idea CCW. She probably has a wide palete. 

If you look closely, it looks to me like her jaw curves up just a little too much under the anterior teeth, IDK

Both could probably use improvements to incisor angle.

Even the chicks bottom lip seems a bit off. Even when I cover the top lip, the lower still doesn't seem ideal. 

I'm definetly nit picking here though

The chick has a similar lip look that I do now that I rotated my maxilla clockwise. Upper incisors are pointing too far back, lower incisors are pointing too far out while possibly lagging behind the upper incisors

Wot? No model has an inverted upper lip. Especially these two. These here are inverted upper lips:

The two models' lips look fine, if not ideal. Do you have pics of the development you refer to?

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Posted : 15/12/2019 4:43 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

the 2 models that captain posted about to kiss.

If you cover EVERYTHING but her lips, you wouldn't think she was as attractive as her lips suggest.

IMO ur being too analytical. I acknowledge I may be wrong, but the lips are the least attractive part of her face. 

You can do the same thing with every face to determine which areas may be lacking.

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Posted : 15/12/2019 6:33 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member
Posted by: @horatio

Pertinent to the thread, both are supermodels but look at the difference in their maxillae...

This one

Even her zygo seems a little off when I cover and reveal it, unless thats photoshop

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Posted : 15/12/2019 6:34 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Are you sure I am the one being overly analytical?

Yes I saw the pics of the models. Whom you said had inverted lips. I posted a pic of two OTHER people with said condition to try and clear things up. I think my point was missed. 

You say things seem "off" but I am just trying to figure out your specific analysis

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Posted : 16/12/2019 4:12 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

sorry, my analysis is that the woman's lip area could be more attractive based on nothing but my gut feeling.

then when I look more closely, it's clear that her bottom lip "pouts" more than her top lip, and this suggests she is not perfect. 

Her upper incisors are probably POINTING too far INTO her mouth as opposed to OUT of her mouth, and the lower incisors are probably POINTING too far OUT of her mouth as opposed to inwards. Hence a flat upper lip, and a pouty lower lip.

The exact same thing has happened to me. Upper incisor angles in, lower incisor angles out, which causes a flat upper lip and a pouty lower lip.

Visually speaking, I see that her upper incisor looks too far back in relation to her lip, resulting in a slightly set back and or/clockwise rotated maxilla than is optimal. 

 

 

 

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Posted : 16/12/2019 11:55 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

@eddiemoney

sorry, my analysis is that the woman's lip area could be more attractive based on nothing but my gut feeling.

then when I look more closely, it's clear that her bottom lip "pouts" more than her top lip, and this suggests she is not perfect. 

Her upper incisors are probably POINTING too far INTO her mouth as opposed to OUT of her mouth, and the lower incisors are probably POINTING too far OUT of her mouth as opposed to inwards. Hence a flat upper lip, and a pouty lower lip.

The exact same thing has happened to me. Upper incisor angles in, lower incisor angles out, which causes a flat upper lip and a pouty lower lip.

Visually speaking, I see that her upper incisor looks too far back in relation to her lip, resulting in a slightly set back and or/clockwise rotated maxilla than is optimal. 

 

 

 

Oh ok. Makes sense now. Tbh I think it may be phenotypical for her to have that long vertical philtrum with the proclined lower incisors. I am not 100% but people of European descent tend to this bite structure wherein the philtrum grows long and upper lip is less prominent than lower.

I don't know if her maxilla creates this effect or if her more prominent bones in the rest of her face create the effect. 

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Posted : 17/12/2019 12:40 am
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

oh yeah you're right white woman do have those lips. still think the model could be better but ill move on

Is this correct?woman have greater gonial angle?

possibly why I don't like low gonial angle on woman more so than men. 

this would again line up with woman being more clockwise rotated. looks like that is what gives womans jaw a more round look from the front.

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Posted : 18/12/2019 5:45 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

Because the mandible gets trapped back and the maxilla molars go too high, they angle backwards in CW.

Also, people with high molars who don't have overbites, don't have as bad CW as someone with a trapped back mandible. The dude without the overbite would have more straight molars.

In both these cases, wheather this anglulation is part of the cause of CW or just a symptom I cannot tell. 

However, I feel like angeling the molar foward is part of the puzzle to bring them down. 

For example.

1. The lip seal would angle the mandible incisors backwards, helping the mandible to move forwards, which would then help the upper molars to angle forwards.

2 Widening of the palate (I think?) allows the wisdom teeth to grow in etc etc etc

 

 

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Posted : 24/12/2019 6:19 am