Notifications
Clear all

NOTICE:

DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION

This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

Jutting mandible forward - does anyone else do this?  

  RSS
PaperBag
Estimable Member

After sliding my mandible forward for much of the past three weeks, I was trying to chew food on my back molars as usual and felt like it wasn't getting broken down because the movement was awkward. I then used my front six teeth and it felt natural for the first time in many years, if ever. Some people claim the front teeth are fairly useless aside from biting into food, which I believed due to never being able to chew with them. The only times I have tried were as a forced exercise that was impossible to maintain because my upper and lower front teeth don't meet.
I recall someone saying that holding their mandible forward made it quickly remodel that way, which I doubt in terms of happening so fast, but maybe this is why the action of jutting hasn't given me the same sensations it did at the beginning. There's not much sensation at all, it just feels preferable to force my jaws together, so I keep doing it. My left TMJ was making a grinding noise this morning with no pain, if that's any sign of progress and not just damaging it. (which I have also done in the past)

Who else here juts and what kind of effects have you experienced?

Quote
Posted : 06/06/2020 2:53 am
Sergio-OMS
Trusted Member

Jutting the mandible forward creates TMJ derangements, that is what you have been promoting and that is what you are experiencing now.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2020 3:49 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@sergio-oms Retracting it the opposite direction with elastics did the same thing to a worse degree and prevented me from having any lateral or forward movement for years. How's that any better?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2020 4:13 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @sergio-oms

Jutting the mandible forward creates TMJ derangements, that is what you have been promoting and that is what you are experiencing now.

What is the ideal condyle position for the mandible? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2020 4:33 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

When you jut do you underbite or just hold lower incisors behind upper ones? Or edge to edge?

The way I see it a Class 2 alignment means the mandible is too far back. Is it really jutting to stop letting the molars relax a bit?

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2020 4:37 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

My thing is that over time your molar chewing shouldn't feel awkward. Your maxilla is probably very clockwise rotated so your molars can't touch if your incisors do. Over time if those molars come down (or your maxilla expands), chewing with all teeth should become natural, not just the front. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2020 4:40 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney I let the lower incisors meet the upper ones, so in my case, "jutting" is just making a normal bite. By the molar chewing being awkward, I meant just today. That's how I was chewing my whole life, as my front teeth bit into food but could never chew, but only using my molars today felt time consuming. Today was the only time I felt the incisors could be used, and I should rephrase to say it was closer to chewing with all teeth than just isolating the front. I posted pics last month and am pretty sure you said my maxilla was alright but my mandible was recessed.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2020 4:44 am
Sergio-OMS
Trusted Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @sergio-oms

Jutting the mandible forward creates TMJ derangements, that is what you have been promoting and that is what you are experiencing now.

What is the ideal condyle position for the mandible? 

It is called centric relation

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2020 8:04 am
Sergio-OMS
Trusted Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@sergio-oms Retracting it the opposite direction with elastics did the same thing to a worse degree and prevented me from having any lateral or forward movement for years. How's that any better?

Precisely. Both approaches cause problems.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2020 8:05 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@sergio-oms Is centric relation essentially about sliding the mandible as far as it can go without causing pain or discomfort? I'm not doing/promoting extreme jutting, though having been told by an orthodontist that frequent TMJ clicking post-treatment was normal makes it hard to believe everything at face value. I damaged my joints last year by trying to delicately slide my jaw forward when it had no motion. After osteopathic treatment, it can slide farther forward with no pain and intuitively feels better to do than keeping the old bite.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2020 3:19 am
Sergio-OMS
Trusted Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@sergio-oms Is centric relation essentially about sliding the mandible as far as it can go without causing pain or discomfort? I'm not doing/promoting extreme jutting, though having been told by an orthodontist that frequent TMJ clicking post-treatment was normal makes it hard to believe everything at face value. I damaged my joints last year by trying to delicately slide my jaw forward when it had no motion. After osteopathic treatment, it can slide farther forward with no pain and intuitively feels better to do than keeping the old bite.

No, that is not centric relation. Maybe these videos can help you understanding. The first one is a bit technical but if you take your time, watch all of them and use Google I am confident you will get the essentials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTi-0eg8nI0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB468Jh9aAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw3hzI2WVyA

How can be TMJ clicking be considered normal? It is true it is a frequent side effect but it is not normal, it is pathological, it shows us the damage of the TMJs caused by the previous condition and made worse by attempted treatments.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2020 4:04 am
PaperBag liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member

I read somewhere that the mandibular fossa is very resistant to upwards forces, I also read the proper way to open a mouth is to start jutting it after it's half open. I'd say jutting against teeth is probably bad and will rotate the teeth too much. I'd also say jutting while the mouth isn't open is also bad.

I think whenever we chew the mandible should retract slightly at the end of the chewing motion and protract slightly at the start.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/06/2020 11:22 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus The part about protracting/retracting while chewing makes sense and is probably more or less the way it's done if there isn't some kind of malocclusion preventing it. What was the context of that source saying to jut the jaw when the mouth is partially open? That doesn't sound like a position that could be held for long periods of time. When jutting against teeth, my jaw comes forward enough for the sensation to be mostly in that area. There's not much dental pressure being applied.

My resting profile may have improved a little from doing this, though I need to make sure the angles match when taking pictures. If I don't think it's BS in the next week, I'll post some and see what others think. It's a bit surprising nobody else seems to do this, I thought jutting used to be frequently mentioned on here.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2020 12:31 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@auxiliarus The part about protracting/retracting while chewing makes sense and is probably more or less the way it's done if there isn't some kind of malocclusion preventing it. What was the context of that source saying to jut the jaw when the mouth is partially open? That doesn't sound like a position that could be held for long periods of time. When jutting against teeth, my jaw comes forward enough for the sensation to be mostly in that area. There's not much dental pressure being applied.

My resting profile may have improved a little from doing this, though I need to make sure the angles match when taking pictures. If I don't think it's BS in the next week, I'll post some and see what others think. It's a bit surprising nobody else seems to do this, I thought jutting used to be frequently mentioned on here.

 

What was the context of that source saying to jut the jaw when the mouth is partially open? That doesn't sound like a position that could be held for long periods of time.

It's not supposed to be held for long periods of time. The context was proper chewing, when mouth opens to chew it's supposed to naturally extend a bit.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/06/2020 6:05 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

I have an overbite and I try to jut my mandible forward to get the teeth in contact, plus I do experience how PaperBag says just expect the grinding because I don’t overdo it. But if you are recessed, shouldn’t you jut your mandible forward to the have lower teeth come in contact with the upper teeth for the bite to be realigned and push the maxilla forward?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/06/2020 7:41 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member
Posted by: @basim

But if you are recessed, shouldn’t you jut your mandible forward to the have lower teeth come in contact with the upper teeth for the bite to be realigned and push the maxilla forward?

That's what I thought, although I don't believe the maxilla gets pushed forward with tooth contact. Progress' theory of alveolar ridge remodelling makes more sense.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/06/2020 2:18 am
Basim
Eminent Member

Where’s is that thread you mentioned of progress alveolar ridge remodeling 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/06/2020 10:39 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@basim Disregard what I just said about Progress' post not being there. He didn't delete it, I just skipped over it somehow. Here: https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/what-kind-of-growth-remodelling-do-i-need-pics/#post-31446

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/06/2020 9:50 pm
Bogdar
Eminent Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@sergio-oms Retracting it the opposite direction with elastics did the same thing to a worse degree and prevented me from having any lateral or forward movement for years. How's that any better?

Damn happened the exact same to me !!!!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2020 5:52 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@basim Disregard what I just said about Progress' post not being there. He didn't delete it, I just skipped over it somehow. Here: https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/what-kind-of-growth-remodelling-do-i-need-pics/#post-31446

Did you make any short-term progress from jutting teeth against teeth? Any info if it causes the front teeth to rotate forward too much?

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/06/2020 8:27 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus It's very hard to say. Not being the type to claim I've achieved results in a short time, it still feels like the mirror shows improvement. I've taken a ton of photos/videos over the weeks to try and prove any changes, but there are a lot of problems matching the angles, distance, lighting, etc.. Not sure if they're worth posting for this reason. Another difficulty is that my lips always seem to come apart when focusing on taking a picture, as I'm now used to sealing them through jutting and don't jut for the camera, so having that stereotypical open lip look makes my profile look a lot worse. (can't even remember how I sealed them prior to this)

Though I may not have noticed if you didn't ask, I do think my front teeth could have moved a bit. I sometimes blow air under/through my teeth when they're closed to get a sense of how big my overjet is, and after doing it today, air blows diagonally through where my upper canines are but not the incisors. That might imply the incisors moved backward and partially closed the overjet, but they feel and look proclined to me. Overall, the difference in feeling is not huge, but it would be ironic if my maxilla improved at the expense of the mandible I'm trying to fix.

Anecdotes don't mean much, but when taking pictures, it's less common than before that I have to take a ton until getting a decent one. Same for looking in the mirror. It used to be a toss-up between thinking I looked alright or recessed every time I checked, but it's a lot more consistent now. It wasn't based on self-esteem or anything, my eyes seemed to fluctuate and look overly round/open sometimes. The mandibular change is debatable, though I would say I currently look the best I ever have looked post-CFD, particularly from a frontal view. Who knows if jutting has been a factor, but I'll keep at it.

By the way, I found a clip of me in 2015 (pre-Mewing) and holy, I'm hideous. My philtrum is super long and the rest of my face generally looks like end stage veganism. This seems to validate the idea that the past several years have led to at least some changes.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/06/2020 7:44 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@auxiliarus It's very hard to say. Not being the type to claim I've achieved results in a short time, it still feels like the mirror shows improvement. I've taken a ton of photos/videos over the weeks to try and prove any changes, but there are a lot of problems matching the angles, distance, lighting, etc.. Not sure if they're worth posting for this reason. Another difficulty is that my lips always seem to come apart when focusing on taking a picture, as I'm now used to sealing them through jutting and don't jut for the camera, so having that stereotypical open lip look makes my profile look a lot worse. (can't even remember how I sealed them prior to this)

Though I may not have noticed if you didn't ask, I do think my front teeth could have moved a bit. I sometimes blow air under/through my teeth when they're closed to get a sense of how big my overjet is, and after doing it today, air blows diagonally through where my upper canines are but not the incisors. That might imply the incisors moved backward and partially closed the overjet, but they feel and look proclined to me. Overall, the difference in feeling is not huge, but it would be ironic if my maxilla improved at the expense of the mandible I'm trying to fix.

Anecdotes don't mean much, but when taking pictures, it's less common than before that I have to take a ton until getting a decent one. Same for looking in the mirror. It used to be a toss-up between thinking I looked alright or recessed every time I checked, but it's a lot more consistent now. It wasn't based on self-esteem or anything, my eyes seemed to fluctuate and look overly round/open sometimes. The mandibular change is debatable, though I would say I currently look the best I ever have looked post-CFD, particularly from a frontal view. Who knows if jutting has been a factor, but I'll keep at it.

By the way, I found a clip of me in 2015 (pre-Mewing) and holy, I'm hideous. My philtrum is super long and the rest of my face generally looks like end stage veganism. This seems to validate the idea that the past several years have led to at least some changes.

Good to hear, keep us updated, it's a very interesting idea. If I were you, I'd mostly focus on measuring your teeth angle, to make sure they don't get impacted negatively.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/06/2020 8:15 am
PaperBag liked
AlphaMinus
Estimable Member

It's easy to tell if your condyles are too far set back. Stick your fingers in your ears, and then open and close your mouth repeatedly. If you feel the bones moving in your ears, then your mandible is too set back. Now try jutting, just a little (as little as 2-3mm) - you don't feel the bones moving in your ears anymore, right? 

My bite is generally good, but I have this problem with my mandible. Ever so slightly set back, according to the test above, and I also have TMJ problems like clicking when I chew, and occasionally my jaw will lock if chewing something tough like a bagel. 

Reading this article a year or so ago persuaded me to jut that 2-3mm to unjam my condyles, and I've done it ever since. It was an effort at first, but now it almost seems like it's my mandible's natural position. I don't touch my teeth, I keep them ever so slightly apart with my lips sealed. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/08/2020 10:43 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus Turns out I forgot to reply to your post at the time and thus forgot about measuring my teeth. I don't think they changed any further in terms of displacement, but maintaining the jutting has become practically default posture. I'm not eager to check for results like with previous attempts of techniques because it feels like the only way to hold my jaws, so it's not like the other methods of doing something uncomfortable while watching the clock/calendar and waiting for something to happen. When looking in the mirror, I no longer think my lower third is as noticeably small as it used to be. I just took a bunch of photos and the angles aren't similar enough to be worth posting, but prefaced with the usual "could be nothing", I like my current appearance more than two months ago.

@AlphaMinus I tried the exercise and didn't hear any bones moving around despite not jutting and factually having a set back mandible, plus occasional TMJ clicking. (long before jutting began) Like you said, jutting feels like the natural position, in spite of warnings that it will mess up the joint. I didn't understand what a true lip seal was until recently, when realizing they can't properly seal if the mandible is too far back. Without jutting, my usual "seal" was just closing them, and they didn't fully close anyway.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/08/2020 6:15 pm
JordanR
Active Member

The only comfortable position for my mandible is to jut forward slightly so my incisors touch at the tips. This means I can't close my teeth together properly without being uncomfortable and my mandible pushing back too far.

This only happened after I had adult braces. The braces wiped out all the adjustments my teeth had made to accommodate my underdeveloped face. 

e.g. my lower incisors used to tilt backwards, and my top incisors tilted forwards. If you can imagine that in your head, it allowed my mandible to sit sufficiently forward.

But braces pulled my top incisors back, and lower incisors forward, messing up the way my jaws sit. Its driving me insane, given me TMD, and I am exploring options to fix it but no ortho or dentist wants to hear about it. They literally just say 'braces aren't the problem, its just a coincidence you now have TMD and your face is uncomfortable.' Everybody these days is a god damn hack. Its all about a dollar and not caring at all about the root causes of problems.

Idk what to do next, but I am going to try and pull on my whole upper dention and pull the whole lot forward to where it used to be.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/08/2020 1:37 am
Bogdar
Eminent Member

@alphaminus

Where does this test come from ? I sure can feel movements. But I need the source to give it credit !

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/11/2020 12:11 pm