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John Mew: teeth together causes upswing, tongue only widens the maxilla  

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drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

From Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/d6bwcc/john_mew_teeth_together_causes_upswing_tongue/

If this screen grab is real, it seems to be another piece to add to the big picture of the teeth together concept.  The other pieces I have so far are that people with bruxism seem to have upswung maxilla (someone posted a video a while back where a dentist talks about this) and that chewing (essentially, exerting upwards force with your lower jaw) is important.

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Posted : 19/09/2019 11:34 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

In order not to let Reddit steal all the glory, I'll just mention that this cap was originally posted by @qwerty135 in a discussion about tooth contact earlier this week. Sinned, eddiemoney and I shared a few thoughts about it, I think it's worth reading through since each of us had a little different take on the subject. I also used this cap as foundation for another post in here.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 1:17 am
Bogdar
Eminent Member

It was already a known fact as John Mew already mentionned it in one video. I can't remember whichone and what he exactly said but the information was like :

The mandible, by exercing upward pressure on the maxilla, keeps it from falling and can push him up as long as other variables are aligned (mouth closed etc).

Also, members from here as darkindigo (who left this forum for the 57th time lol) mentionned that teeth too much in contact caused a shortening of the vertical dimension of the maxilla, hence why people with too much grinding teeth habit have way too low maxilla position.

 

Anyway, I know it's not the first time I hear this because it was already in my daily routine for these same reasons.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 7:18 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I've had teeth in contact most of my life and still ended up with a Class 3 Maloclussion. Keeping teeth in contact after braces also didn't do much to keep my Mew line below 50mm.

Based on my 33 year old n=1 experiment, I can say teeth contact hasn't given me anything special. 

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Posted : 20/09/2019 1:18 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I believe the teeth play a major role, but I cannot pinpoint what it is. Every tooth has an attached nerve making up its root - the signalling from these nerves has to play some role in development. 

On the one hand, perhaps the contacting teeth/tongue pressure signals growth. On the other hand, maybe a lack of contact with the lower jaw and tongue is what signals the need for further growth.

 

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Posted : 20/09/2019 1:34 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Upswing can also be beneficial in some cases but not others. For a guy too much upswing makes his proportions either more feminine or he ends up pug faced. Unless a guy has an incredibly weak chin or long face upswing won't necessarily add aesthetic benefits.

Widening is more important for males IMO

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Posted : 20/09/2019 2:47 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

This is my experience as well. After braces I kept my teeth together and even started clenching at night (not on purpose), no difference in the upswing of my jaws. There is an association between clenching/bruxism and better developed faces, I think this is do to simply the fact that people who clench or have bruxism don't mouth breathe and keep their mouth closed. Also I suspect people who tend to clench probably did so as a child as well. As an adult or teenager this probably won't make a difference, but in a younger person it definitely can. I don't think it's the tooth contact itself that prevents the jaws from growing wrong but the fact that it stops one from mouth breathing. 

I don't think such a thing exists really as "too much upswing", pugs don't have too much upswing, they have squashed faces with short snouts, their upswing is just as much as any other dog. We should be aiming for ideal development, reaching our genetic potential. When looking out our ancestors I think it's clear that we're far from our genetic potential, so to say we can cause too much upswing, I doubt it, especially given how bad modern people's jaws have gotten.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 7:26 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@eddiemoney

This is my experience as well. After braces I kept my teeth together and even started clenching at night (not on purpose), no difference in the upswing of my jaws. There is an association between clenching/bruxism and better developed faces, I think this is do to simply the fact that people who clench or have bruxism don't mouth breathe and keep their mouth closed. Also I suspect people who tend to clench probably did so as a child as well. As an adult or teenager this probably won't make a difference, but in a younger person it definitely can. I don't think it's the tooth contact itself that prevents the jaws from growing wrong but the fact that it stops one from mouth breathing. 

I don't think such a thing exists really as "too much upswing", pugs don't have too much upswing, they have squashed faces with short snouts, their upswing is just as much as any other dog. We should be aiming for ideal development, reaching our genetic potential. When looking out our ancestors I think it's clear that we're far from our genetic potential, so to say we can cause too much upswing, I doubt it, especially given how bad modern people's jaws have gotten.

Assuming significant upswing is possible, I don't think men need to shorten their faces indefinitely. Men with Mew lines that are too short look overly neotenous IMO. And when I mean pug faced I mean people who have very short faces. 

Maxilla should be an ideal growth, I agree. But I don't always subscribe to "shorter Mew line = always better" idea. Especially for males. Too long is bad just like too short

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Posted : 20/09/2019 10:00 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@Progress thanks! I should know by now that everything potentially valuable comes from here and not Reddit haha.  The Reddit forum is a mess, but it does make it easier to see pics so I still check in every once in a while.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 11:05 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

@sinned

@eddiemoney

In both of your cases, the teeth were kept in contact only before adopting tongue posture, right? Or was there any period of overlap between the two? As @admin suggested, it could be that the nasopalatine nerve -- which branches into the individual tooth nerve endings of the upper jaw and 'the spot' at the incisive papilla --  has to be stimulated by both the teeth and the tongue in order for the proper nerve signallig to be generated. Although I admit, if this is the case, it no more seems accurate to say that tooth contact alone drives the upswing.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 1:11 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@Progress

The recent discussion about teeth together has made me try out softly clenching while doing tongue posture for the past two days, and there is constant pressure/pulsating around the nasopalatine nerve area, although I'm not consciously directing my tongue to a specific area because I have to focus a lot on keeping the clenching going. In the other thread, you said you thought walking/standing made more sense for clenching than just sitting because the postural chain is engaged - I walked a 45 minute route (which I do up to 7 times a week) yesterday while gently clenching and now my abs are sore despite not doing any other physical activity or thinking about my posture at the time. Previously, I have tried to do Mike Mew's abs walk exercise, and it never worked or felt like anything was happening.

I also agree with @drunkwithcoffee, mild clenching seems to make head posture effortless.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 1:45 am
AlphaMinus
Estimable Member

Another completely useless, out of context quote from a Mew being bandied about as possible holy grail information. It's unfortunate. I mean what is Mew talking about here? Maxillary upswing in developing children who touch their teeth lightly? He couldn't possibly be talking about maxillary upswing in fully developed adults, since that has never been recorded or documented with any credibility (outside of surgery of course). Most likely he's talking about the oral habits of children in the critical skull development phase between 7 and 12. And yet quotes like this invariably turn into a discussion between adults about what they should be doing with their teeth. As if the maxilla in an adult who doesn't touch their teeth together is in danger of "dropping." 

I really wish clear distinctions were made in discussions about maxillary development. Are people talking about the changes a kid can make in their skull development, or are they actually talking as if things like maxilla size and placement can be changed in adults?

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Posted : 21/09/2019 12:26 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member
Posted by: @alphaminus

Another completely useless, out of context quote from a Mew being bandied about as possible holy grail information. It's unfortunate. I mean what is Mew talking about here? Maxillary upswing in developing children who touch their teeth lightly? He couldn't possibly be talking about maxillary upswing in fully developed adults, since that has never been recorded or documented with any credibility (outside of surgery of course). Most likely he's talking about the oral habits of children in the critical skull development phase between 7 and 12. And yet quotes like this invariably turn into a discussion between adults about what they should be doing with their teeth. As if the maxilla in an adult who doesn't touch their teeth together is in danger of "dropping." 

I really wish clear distinctions were made in discussions about maxillary development. Are people talking about the changes a kid can make in their skull development, or are they actually talking as if things like maxilla size and placement can be changed in adults?

He was commenting regarding Astrosky’s mewing video and his progress from age 16-22. So at the very least his advice was intended for young adults, which he has said can still experience changes in craniofacial form(albeit lesser in extent). Below is a photo of one of his cases, a 19 year old woman

It’s my opinion that if we assume the craniofacial complex is static rather than dynamic, then a lot of the goals of this forum disappear...we are here trying to figure out if change is possible, and if so how much and how to achieve it. That being said, I think it’s very relevant to look at different aspects which factor into the growth in children, at least to verify whether or not they lose their relevance in adults. The end result may be that teeth together is not very important in adults, or even detrimental through some signaling pathway of the cranium! I just think it’s an important factor to analyze, at least as a starting point.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 1:41 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Posted by: @paperbag

The recent discussion about teeth together has made me try out softly clenching while doing tongue posture for the past two days, and there is constant pressure/pulsating around the nasopalatine nerve area, although I'm not consciously directing my tongue to a specific area because I have to focus a lot on keeping the clenching going. In the other thread, you said you thought walking/standing made more sense for clenching than just sitting because the postural chain is engaged - I walked a 45 minute route (which I do up to 7 times a week) yesterday while gently clenching and now my abs are sore despite not doing any other physical activity or thinking about my posture at the time. Previously, I have tried to do Mike Mew's abs walk exercise, and it never worked or felt like anything was happening.

I also agree with @drunkwithcoffee, mild clenching seems to make head posture effortless.

My sentiments exactly. It's fascinating how up to a certain point the firmer you clench, the better the alignment of your head & torso becomes. I have been using this as my cue, i.e. if it doesn't lift the head and activate the abs, it's too gentle. The tongue very much seems to lift itself onto the roof of the mouth and do its own thing as long as the jaws are properly shut. Have your teeth become sore yet? Mine are developing that brace-like soreness that I've come to know as a sign of expansion.
Posted by: @alphaminus
Another completely useless, out of context quote from a Mew being bandied about as possible holy grail information. [...] And yet quotes like this invariably turn into a discussion between adults about what they should be doing with their teeth.
I think you are being overly theathrical with your interpretation of the thread. Considering how ambiguous Mike has been about tooth contact, this is a valid and important subject of discussion. As for the context of the cap, John's statement seems very general and not specifically aimed at any particular (age) group. He is simply defining the basic mechanics behind craniofacial development. Precisely who these mechanics work on is beyond his or anyone's knowledge.
 
Posted by: @alphaminus

As if the maxilla in an adult who doesn't touch their teeth together is in danger of "dropping." 

This indeed appears to be the case though. Be it primarily due to slacking tongue or mandible, age-correlated increase in gonial angle, mandibular narrowing and decrease in ramus height -- all alleged symptoms of facial downswing -- are recognized phenomena:

"Gonial angle increased with age and bigonial width decreased with age. Ramus height fluctuated between the ages of 18 and 40, showing a steady decline into the 5th and 6th decades [...] There was a steady decrease later in life in ramus height, with gonial angle generally increasing as the population aged."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4739368/

It's interesting that the height of the ramus was said to fluctuate up until 40s. This already suggests that at least some level of craniofacial adaption can occurr well into the middle age. 

 

 

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Posted : 21/09/2019 1:45 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@alphaminus you're right that it lacks context, but I'm not sure how that makes it useless? This whole field is in the hypothesis/experimentation stage of the scientific process.  In the spirit of science, no stone (hypothesis) should be left unturned.

If my language was too bold, I apologize, but at no point do I consider this information some kind of holy grail.  It's only another potential piece of the puzzle that deserves to be analyzed.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 5:03 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@progress

Yeah I had tooth contact before mewing, after experimenting with mewing with and without tooth contact I decided it'd be better to just mew without since it's easier and I value mewing and tongue posture more than I do tooth contact, I figured whatever I was missing from tooth contact I could make up with chewing. For me, tooth contact doesn't make a difference in posture, mewing does, mewing makes my neck more strong and rigid.

@drunkwithcoffee

Honestly what is up with the orthotropics subreddit, it's an absolute dumpster fire.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 5:19 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

My sentiments exactly. It's fascinating how up to a certain point the firmer you clench, the better the alignment of your head & torso becomes. I have been using this as my cue, i.e. if it doesn't lift the head and activate the abs, it's too gentle. The tongue very much seems to lift itself onto the roof of the mouth and do its own thing as long as the jaws are properly shut. Have your teeth become sore yet? Mine are developing that brace-like soreness that I've come to know as a sign of expansion.

Yes, my teeth are somewhat sore, but I didn't get expansion during ortho treatment. I don't want to assume that it automatically means something positive is happening and is not just a response from accidentally clenching too hard, though that's quite unlikely.

I seem to find the best and easiest to feel sensations happen when reclined against pillows on the couch/bed vs. sitting upright or standing, and I got several suture pops while laying on my side last night. That hasn't happened since I spent 2 months thumb pulling every hour of the day, which was admittedly a giant waste of time.

Chewing gum has never done anything for me and it seems like a degree of separation from soft clenching, since the opposing teeth aren't always directly touching while chewing. I'd chew mastic gum for hours and the masseter burn completely wore off within 5 minutes, same with those chewable silicone necklace blocks that have been mentioned here in the past. Are we supposed to believe that Brad Pitt and others developed huge masseters from eating tough meat and chewing supermarket quality gum (or whatever the examples given are) while they were growing? Although it's a lot duller of a sensation, the clenching has given me a wider area of feeling around my masseters and cheeks than chewing anything ever did.

Not saying this is a panacea/holy grail, just saying the nearly 4 years of other things I've tried all had negligible/inconsistent results in terms of feeling anything at all for a sustained amount of time, without any actual changes taking place, and soft clenching at least has immediate feedback without there being much of a technique to master. For me, anyway.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 11:02 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @sinned

Yeah I had tooth contact before mewing, after experimenting with mewing with and without tooth contact I decided it'd be better to just mew without since it's easier and I value mewing and tongue posture more than I do tooth contact, I figured whatever I was missing from tooth contact I could make up with chewing. For me, tooth contact doesn't make a difference in posture, mewing does, mewing makes my neck more strong and rigid.

 

Hmm... I have been honing the connection between my tongue and neck so much that I may be underestimating how great role the tongue is still playing. I certainly don't mean to imply that the jaw is taking over, it feels more like the jaw is catching up with the tongue.

I have long entertained the idea that jaw and tongue are ends to two separate postural chains. It is evident in how clenching/jutting helps the body bend forward and activating the posterior tongue helps it bend backward. From here, a logical deduction would be that oral posture that is imbalanced towards excessive jaw engagement would result in different imbalance archetype than an oral posture that is imbalanced towards excessive posterior tongue engagement. I've said this before, but it could be that over- and underbite + anterior & posterior pelvic tilt are somehow tied to this. I have had tendencies to weak jaw activation, overbite and anterior pelvic tilt. Am I right to assume that your starting situation was closer to posterior pelvic tilt?

 

Kuvahaun tulos haulle posterior pelvic tilt

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Posted : 22/09/2019 3:20 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@progress

Yeah I have posterior tilt, honestly I think the conventional wisdom given by therapists and the like is wrong and ignores the evidence. Imo anterior pelvic tilt is an invalid pathology, maybe I'll find and pull up the numbers, but most hernias occur posteriorly, in fact the vast majority due, there are basically none that occur anteriorly. If such a thing as anterior pelvic tilt existed there should be herniations occuring aneteriorly, this isn't the case. In addition, there is a correlation between people with lower back pain and atrophied lower back muscles. I'm of the opinion that what people think of as "anterior pelvic tilt" is actually a properly tilted pelvis, just a lack of extension which leads to a hyper lordosis of the mid back. People also tend to mistake posterior tilt as anterior pelvic tilt, in reality their pelvis is tilted posteriorly with their upper/mid back swaying/leaning back. this is again a hyper lordosis of the mid back, not the lower back. 

The posture I'm currently getting a habit into is one where the I'm getting the pelvis/butt back and up, while also mewing. I notice getting my butt back and up unslumps my shoulders naturally, this is due to the fact that posteriorly tilting the pelvis shifts the center of gravity forward, bringing the shoulders and neck with it. Tilting the pelvis back and up brings the shoulders back as well out of a slumped position. I don't touch the teeth or chin tuck anymore, not to say other people shouldn't just that I feel this is the posture I feel best in and not straining myself. I prefer to just do multiple swallows where I bring suck the saliva back with my tongue and then swallow, doing this multiple times gets the saliva off the roof my mouth and gives me a strong suction, but also upwards force from the posterior third without needing a chin tuck. In my experience to get expansion you need a proper swallow/suction hold, you need to properly swallow and then hold the tongue position of that swallow. 

 

 

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Posted : 22/09/2019 4:35 am
Progress
Member Moderator

Well APT is overactive back with underactive abs/butt, whereas PPT is overactive abs/butt with underactive back (a crude generalization, I know - other muscles are involved too). It's true that PPT increases the risk of spinal injury and that ATP is practically spine-protective, but anatomically they are equally real imbalances. The reason PPT is particularly harmful is because it negates the natural S-curve of the spine. APT on the other hand only exaggerates this curvature, which makes it seemingly benign.

I get it that coming from a background of PPT it can look like APT doesn't even exist. You can try this for yourself: with abs/butt properly contracted, there is a clear limit to how much the pelvis can be tilted anteriorly. Yet when you relax abs/butt, you are able to rotate the pelvis even further by pulling the hips backward with the lower back. This is when you enter the hyperlordosis aspect of APT. You can confirm in front of a full body mirror that excessive anterior rotation really does take place. This is the situation from which I began mewing.

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Posted : 22/09/2019 6:19 am
RamonT
Trusted Member

From my own experience, I believe the hollow position/ PPTP is the best posture to maintain, at the begging is even good to exaggerate it to get one's body used to it, eventually, it will feel like a NSP. I used to be a gymnast and learnt it from my coaches way back in the 80s, I actually sleep,walk,run and maintain the hollow position/NSP 24/7. It keeps your core activated/relaxed at the same time.

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Posted : 22/09/2019 11:21 am
Silver
Trusted Member

Doesn't Esther Gokhale say that correct posture is an anteverted pelvis?

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Posted : 22/09/2019 1:27 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @qwerty135
Posted by: @alphaminus

Another completely useless, out of context quote from a Mew being bandied about as possible holy grail information. It's unfortunate. I mean what is Mew talking about here? Maxillary upswing in developing children who touch their teeth lightly? He couldn't possibly be talking about maxillary upswing in fully developed adults, since that has never been recorded or documented with any credibility (outside of surgery of course). Most likely he's talking about the oral habits of children in the critical skull development phase between 7 and 12. And yet quotes like this invariably turn into a discussion between adults about what they should be doing with their teeth. As if the maxilla in an adult who doesn't touch their teeth together is in danger of "dropping." 

I really wish clear distinctions were made in discussions about maxillary development. Are people talking about the changes a kid can make in their skull development, or are they actually talking as if things like maxilla size and placement can be changed in adults?

He was commenting regarding Astrosky’s mewing video and his progress from age 16-22. So at the very least his advice was intended for young adults, which he has said can still experience changes in craniofacial form(albeit lesser in extent). Below is a photo of one of his cases, a 19 year old woman

It’s my opinion that if we assume the craniofacial complex is static rather than dynamic, then a lot of the goals of this forum disappear...we are here trying to figure out if change is possible, and if so how much and how to achieve it. That being said, I think it’s very relevant to look at different aspects which factor into the growth in children, at least to verify whether or not they lose their relevance in adults. The end result may be that teeth together is not very important in adults, or even detrimental through some signaling pathway of the cranium! I just think it’s an important factor to analyze, at least as a starting point.

I assume the blue outline in the pic shows upward movement. It also shows the Mew line actually INCREASE. Could this mean that an upward movement = longer Mew line despite the fact the facial height seems to decrease???

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Posted : 22/09/2019 11:12 pm
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@progress

Hey dude. Was looking at your progress pics, and changes look good. 

I was wondering if you think the maxilla and/or undereye area has improved? From what I hear, a strong tongue and hard swallow are the most important things. 

Also, has the maxilla expanded with the arch. I'm currently using thumb pulling to very slowly expand, and just using the tongue to maintain it....

My maxilla and eye area are really messed up, i get told by everyone to sleep more.  I just want to do this correctly. . 

do u believe the palatogossus theory?

thanks

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Posted : 09/10/2019 6:17 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @20_year_old_mewing

@progress

Hey dude. Was looking at your progress pics, and changes look good. 

I was wondering if you think the maxilla and/or undereye area has improved? From what I hear, a strong tongue and hard swallow are the most important things. 

Also, has the maxilla expanded with the arch. I'm currently using thumb pulling to very slowly expand, and just using the tongue to maintain it....

My maxilla and eye area are really messed up, i get told by everyone to sleep more.  I just want to do this correctly. . 

do u believe the palatogossus theory?

thanks

In my case orbital and cheek areas are the ones that have improved the most from tongue posture, while the lower third has improved only marginally. There's a particular subtle appearance of fullness to the middle face that, while hard to capture on camera, is easy to recognize when tilting the head up in front of a mirror. I'll pm you to show what I mean.

From what I have understood, the palatoglossus theory asserts that by using the palatoglossus to pull the posterior tongue up, the maxilla gets pulled down. What isn't addressed by the theory is how the medial pterygoids of the mandible play into the equation, as these too have insertions on the maxilla. So you have the tongue and the mandible, both of which are connected to the maxilla through separate insertions, then the mandible is also connected to the sphenoid via the medial&lateral pterygoids (see pic below) and to the zygomatic bones via the masseters. The zygomatic and sphenoid bones are both neighboring bones to the maxilla.

The question is: when all of the forementioned muscles are activated together (i.e. teeth together and tongue on the palate), what is the nature of the resulting force? While both the sphenoid and the maxilla are going to be impacted, how do the individual movements of these bones interact with each other? And how does the rest of the skull respond? So, to answer your question: the palatoglossus theory, though not necessarily wrong, may be too narrow to accurately describe the grand mechanism behind the resulting movement.

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Posted : 09/10/2019 7:20 am
printfactory
Eminent Member

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ZRkXIBIpw

The speaker in this video says clenching the teeth drives the maxilla up and forwards. Why isn´t it recommended for people who want a ccw rotation of the maxilla to clench the teeth then?

TMD? Or wearing down the teeth? 

Also, in the before/after example he shows, shouldn´t the girl develop more prominent cheekbones? To me it doesn´t look like she did.

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Posted : 23/10/2019 5:29 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @printfactory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ZRkXIBIpw

The speaker in this video says clenching the teeth drives the maxilla up and forwards. Why isn´t it recommended for people who want a ccw rotation of the maxilla to clench the teeth then?

TMD? Or wearing down the teeth? 

Also, in the before/after example he shows, shouldn´t the girl develop more prominent cheekbones? To me it doesn´t look like she did.

Clenching drives the maxilla forward but it rotates it clockwise, not counterclockwise. It also doesn't broaden the arch so cheekbones remain unaffected.

Expansion > forward movement. Expansion is wider cheeks, shorter midface, and stronger projection where forward movement just gives you a big jaw and nothing else.

See here:

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/looking-for-youtube-video-of-maxilla-forward-from-bruxism/#post-25656

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Posted : 23/10/2019 8:15 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

FAGGA has showed us how greatly and easily the alveolar bone can be remodelled. It could be that keeping the teeth together does not necessarily move or rotate the maxilla at all, but instead only remodels the alveolar processes of both jaws so that the mandible is allowed to come forward

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Posted : 24/10/2019 2:15 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @progress

FAGGA has showed us how greatly and easily the alveolar bone can be remodelled. It could be that keeping the teeth together does not necessarily move or rotate the maxilla at all, but instead only remodels the alveolar processes of both jaws so that the mandible is allowed to come forward

My own experience doesn't match that at all. I always kept my mouth closed with teeth together and after braces gave me a retrusive profile, my teeth coming together did nothing to change that.

Keeping my teeth apart on the other hand has allowed my upper arch to expand. This in turn has given my mandible more room to protract forward. 

Maybe HOW the teeth are kept together and how the lips are sealed affects the alveolar process. Maybe lower front teeth against upper front teeth allows the alveolar ridge to model itself in a direction that allows the mandible to project. Maybe it proclines the upper incisors and retroclines the lower ones, while maintaining the proper canine relationship. 

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Posted : 24/10/2019 12:04 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @progress

FAGGA has showed us how greatly and easily the alveolar bone can be remodelled. It could be that keeping the teeth together does not necessarily move or rotate the maxilla at all, but instead only remodels the alveolar processes of both jaws so that the mandible is allowed to come forward

My own experience doesn't match that at all. I always kept my mouth closed with teeth together and after braces gave me a retrusive profile, my teeth coming together did nothing to change that.

Keeping my teeth apart on the other hand has allowed my upper arch to expand. This in turn has given my mandible more room to protract forward. 

Maybe HOW the teeth are kept together and how the lips are sealed affects the alveolar process. Maybe lower front teeth against upper front teeth allows the alveolar ridge to model itself in a direction that allows the mandible to project. Maybe it proclines the upper incisors and retroclines the lower ones, while maintaining the proper canine relationship. 

That sounds possible. Perhaps the upper and lower alveolar ridges are intended to grow to opposite directions, with the maxillary ridge growing forward and the mandibular ridge backward, so that the distance between lower front teeth and the tip of the chin becomes greater just like you say. The mandible would essentially 'slide' forward while the lower teeth remain in place (relative to  upper teeth). At least this is how it seems when you press the mandibular arch forward against the maxillary arch. 

Also with FAGGA there is a mechanism that exerts pressure against the nasopalatine nerve near the Spot, which according to the proponents of the appliance stimulates growth in the upper jaw. Regularly this growth-triggering nerve pressure would be generated by the tip of the tongue, so this could be why clenching alone without proper tongue contact does not yield results.

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Posted : 24/10/2019 1:00 pm
Shell
New Member

@bogdar

https://youtu.be/L0ZRkXIBIpw

Bill Hang covers the subject of teeth in contact and upward swing as it relates to a case of bruxing. Watch his YouTube video from 1:00. This clearly shows rotation.

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Posted : 24/10/2019 2:32 pm
Bogdar
Eminent Member

@shell

Thanks, might it be a way to move maxilla up and forward then, and then stop clenching to avoid headaches & other bad stuff? 

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Posted : 24/10/2019 2:38 pm
Shell
New Member

@bogdar

In theory but there may be any number of unintended consequences. It depends where you are starting from. My jaw is already far enough forward which gives a witch like appearance as my maxilla is back. So for me, it's a definite no. Lol It maybe worth a go if the look you are seeking is similar to the one in the video or if your mandible is quite far back. Take care, though !

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Posted : 24/10/2019 3:39 pm
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@silver @progress

Wow someone who actually knows Ester.... I just bought her book- 8 steps to a pain free back.

Yes she does say that we want an anterior pelvic tilt. None of those 3 pictures that progress posted higher in this thread is what perfect posture is. They are all misaligned in different areas. The "correct" posture is clearly not straight enough. Not saying that progress didn't know this, he was just showing the hip tilt....

The J shaped spine is discussed by nobody in these communities, it's a fringe topic even in r/posture, people just can't be f***** with it.

I think it's obvious that perfect body posture from the throat to feet, would ultimately cause unavoidable facial gains. Progress appears to be gaining more changes than most his age, and I think it's because of how much he focuses on body posture. 

Mewing is 1/10 of the puzzle if you are recessed, which is why I have seen zero results in 8 months, despite it being my main thought this entire time. I believe changes can be made relatively quickly, but the difficulty in aligning everything perfectly is sky high. 

So to summarise, I plan on straightening and strengthening my entire body into a J shaped spine, while slowly expanding with light thumb pulling every hour or so. In around 6 months I hope to be in a position where results are inevitable

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Posted : 27/10/2019 6:20 am
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: @20_year_old_mewing

@silver @progress

Wow someone who actually knows Ester.... I just bought her book- 8 steps to a pain free back.

Yes she does say that we want an anterior pelvic tilt. None of those 3 pictures that progress posted higher in this thread is what perfect posture is. They are all misaligned in different areas. The "correct" posture is clearly not straight enough. Not saying that progress didn't know this, he was just showing the hip tilt....

The J shaped spine is discussed by nobody in these communities, it's a fringe topic even in r/posture, people just can't be f***** with it.

I think it's obvious that perfect body posture from the throat to feet, would ultimately cause unavoidable facial gains. Progress appears to be gaining more changes than most his age, and I think it's because of how much he focuses on body posture. 

Mewing is 1/10 of the puzzle if you are recessed, which is why I have seen zero results in 8 months, despite it being my main thought this entire time. I believe changes can be made relatively quickly, but the difficulty in aligning everything perfectly is sky high. 

So to summarise, I plan on straightening and strengthening my entire body into a J shaped spine, while slowly expanding with light thumb pulling every hour or so. In around 6 months I hope to be in a position where results are inevitable

Makes sense. I haven't actually read her book yet, I just keep abreast of everything on the Weston A. Price Foundation's website.

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Posted : 27/10/2019 1:42 pm