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John Mew: teeth together causes upswing, tongue only widens the maxilla  

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drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

From Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/d6bwcc/john_mew_teeth_together_causes_upswing_tongue/

If this screen grab is real, it seems to be another piece to add to the big picture of the teeth together concept.  The other pieces I have so far are that people with bruxism seem to have upswung maxilla (someone posted a video a while back where a dentist talks about this) and that chewing (essentially, exerting upwards force with your lower jaw) is important.

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Posted : 19/09/2019 11:34 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

In order not to let Reddit steal all the glory, I'll just mention that this cap was originally posted by @qwerty135 in a discussion about tooth contact earlier this week. Sinned, eddiemoney and I shared a few thoughts about it, I think it's worth reading through since each of us had a little different take on the subject. I also used this cap as foundation for another post in here.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 1:17 am
Bogdar
Eminent Member

It was already a known fact as John Mew already mentionned it in one video. I can't remember whichone and what he exactly said but the information was like :

The mandible, by exercing upward pressure on the maxilla, keeps it from falling and can push him up as long as other variables are aligned (mouth closed etc).

Also, members from here as darkindigo (who left this forum for the 57th time lol) mentionned that teeth too much in contact caused a shortening of the vertical dimension of the maxilla, hence why people with too much grinding teeth habit have way too low maxilla position.

 

Anyway, I know it's not the first time I hear this because it was already in my daily routine for these same reasons.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 7:18 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I've had teeth in contact most of my life and still ended up with a Class 3 Maloclussion. Keeping teeth in contact after braces also didn't do much to keep my Mew line below 50mm.

Based on my 33 year old n=1 experiment, I can say teeth contact hasn't given me anything special. 

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Posted : 20/09/2019 1:18 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I believe the teeth play a major role, but I cannot pinpoint what it is. Every tooth has an attached nerve making up its root - the signalling from these nerves has to play some role in development. 

On the one hand, perhaps the contacting teeth/tongue pressure signals growth. On the other hand, maybe a lack of contact with the lower jaw and tongue is what signals the need for further growth.

 

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Posted : 20/09/2019 1:34 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Upswing can also be beneficial in some cases but not others. For a guy too much upswing makes his proportions either more feminine or he ends up pug faced. Unless a guy has an incredibly weak chin or long face upswing won't necessarily add aesthetic benefits.

Widening is more important for males IMO

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Posted : 20/09/2019 2:47 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

This is my experience as well. After braces I kept my teeth together and even started clenching at night (not on purpose), no difference in the upswing of my jaws. There is an association between clenching/bruxism and better developed faces, I think this is do to simply the fact that people who clench or have bruxism don't mouth breathe and keep their mouth closed. Also I suspect people who tend to clench probably did so as a child as well. As an adult or teenager this probably won't make a difference, but in a younger person it definitely can. I don't think it's the tooth contact itself that prevents the jaws from growing wrong but the fact that it stops one from mouth breathing. 

I don't think such a thing exists really as "too much upswing", pugs don't have too much upswing, they have squashed faces with short snouts, their upswing is just as much as any other dog. We should be aiming for ideal development, reaching our genetic potential. When looking out our ancestors I think it's clear that we're far from our genetic potential, so to say we can cause too much upswing, I doubt it, especially given how bad modern people's jaws have gotten.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 7:26 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@eddiemoney

This is my experience as well. After braces I kept my teeth together and even started clenching at night (not on purpose), no difference in the upswing of my jaws. There is an association between clenching/bruxism and better developed faces, I think this is do to simply the fact that people who clench or have bruxism don't mouth breathe and keep their mouth closed. Also I suspect people who tend to clench probably did so as a child as well. As an adult or teenager this probably won't make a difference, but in a younger person it definitely can. I don't think it's the tooth contact itself that prevents the jaws from growing wrong but the fact that it stops one from mouth breathing. 

I don't think such a thing exists really as "too much upswing", pugs don't have too much upswing, they have squashed faces with short snouts, their upswing is just as much as any other dog. We should be aiming for ideal development, reaching our genetic potential. When looking out our ancestors I think it's clear that we're far from our genetic potential, so to say we can cause too much upswing, I doubt it, especially given how bad modern people's jaws have gotten.

Assuming significant upswing is possible, I don't think men need to shorten their faces indefinitely. Men with Mew lines that are too short look overly neotenous IMO. And when I mean pug faced I mean people who have very short faces. 

Maxilla should be an ideal growth, I agree. But I don't always subscribe to "shorter Mew line = always better" idea. Especially for males. Too long is bad just like too short

This post was modified 4 weeks ago by EddieMoney
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Posted : 20/09/2019 10:00 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@Progress thanks! I should know by now that everything potentially valuable comes from here and not Reddit haha.  The Reddit forum is a mess, but it does make it easier to see pics so I still check in every once in a while.

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Posted : 20/09/2019 11:05 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

@sinned

@eddiemoney

In both of your cases, the teeth were kept in contact only before adopting tongue posture, right? Or was there any period of overlap between the two? As @admin suggested, it could be that the nasopalatine nerve -- which branches into the individual tooth nerve endings of the upper jaw and 'the spot' at the incisive papilla --  has to be stimulated by both the teeth and the tongue in order for the proper nerve signallig to be generated. Although I admit, if this is the case, it no more seems accurate to say that tooth contact alone drives the upswing.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 1:11 am
PaperBag
Trusted Member

@Progress

The recent discussion about teeth together has made me try out softly clenching while doing tongue posture for the past two days, and there is constant pressure/pulsating around the nasopalatine nerve area, although I'm not consciously directing my tongue to a specific area because I have to focus a lot on keeping the clenching going. In the other thread, you said you thought walking/standing made more sense for clenching than just sitting because the postural chain is engaged - I walked a 45 minute route (which I do up to 7 times a week) yesterday while gently clenching and now my abs are sore despite not doing any other physical activity or thinking about my posture at the time. Previously, I have tried to do Mike Mew's abs walk exercise, and it never worked or felt like anything was happening.

I also agree with @drunkwithcoffee, mild clenching seems to make head posture effortless.

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Posted : 21/09/2019 1:45 am
AlphaMinus
Estimable Member

Another completely useless, out of context quote from a Mew being bandied about as possible holy grail information. It's unfortunate. I mean what is Mew talking about here? Maxillary upswing in developing children who touch their teeth lightly? He couldn't possibly be talking about maxillary upswing in fully developed adults, since that has never been recorded or documented with any credibility (outside of surgery of course). Most likely he's talking about the oral habits of children in the critical skull development phase between 7 and 12. And yet quotes like this invariably turn into a discussion between adults about what they should be doing with their teeth. As if the maxilla in an adult who doesn't touch their teeth together is in danger of "dropping." 

I really wish clear distinctions were made in discussions about maxillary development. Are people talking about the changes a kid can make in their skull development, or are they actually talking as if things like maxilla size and placement can be changed in adults?

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Posted : 21/09/2019 12:26 pm
qwerty135
Active Member
Posted by: @alphaminus

Another completely useless, out of context quote from a Mew being bandied about as possible holy grail information. It's unfortunate. I mean what is Mew talking about here? Maxillary upswing in developing children who touch their teeth lightly? He couldn't possibly be talking about maxillary upswing in fully developed adults, since that has never been recorded or documented with any credibility (outside of surgery of course). Most likely he's talking about the oral habits of children in the critical skull development phase between 7 and 12. And yet quotes like this invariably turn into a discussion between adults about what they should be doing with their teeth. As if the maxilla in an adult who doesn't touch their teeth together is in danger of "dropping." 

I really wish clear distinctions were made in discussions about maxillary development. Are people talking about the changes a kid can make in their skull development, or are they actually talking as if things like maxilla size and placement can be changed in adults?

He was commenting regarding Astrosky’s mewing video and his progress from age 16-22. So at the very least his advice was intended for young adults, which he has said can still experience changes in craniofacial form(albeit lesser in extent). Below is a photo of one of his cases, a 19 year old woman

It’s my opinion that if we assume the craniofacial complex is static rather than dynamic, then a lot of the goals of this forum disappear...we are here trying to figure out if change is possible, and if so how much and how to achieve it. That being said, I think it’s very relevant to look at different aspects which factor into the growth in children, at least to verify whether or not they lose their relevance in adults. The end result may be that teeth together is not very important in adults, or even detrimental through some signaling pathway of the cranium! I just think it’s an important factor to analyze, at least as a starting point.

This post was modified 4 weeks ago by qwerty135
This post was modified 3 weeks ago by qwerty135
ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/09/2019 1:41 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Posted by: @paperbag

The recent discussion about teeth together has made me try out softly clenching while doing tongue posture for the past two days, and there is constant pressure/pulsating around the nasopalatine nerve area, although I'm not consciously directing my tongue to a specific area because I have to focus a lot on keeping the clenching going. In the other thread, you said you thought walking/standing made more sense for clenching than just sitting because the postural chain is engaged - I walked a 45 minute route (which I do up to 7 times a week) yesterday while gently clenching and now my abs are sore despite not doing any other physical activity or thinking about my posture at the time. Previously, I have tried to do Mike Mew's abs walk exercise, and it never worked or felt like anything was happening.

I also agree with @drunkwithcoffee, mild clenching seems to make head posture effortless.

My sentiments exactly. It's fascinating how up to a certain point the firmer you clench, the better the alignment of your head & torso becomes. I have been using this as my cue, i.e. if it doesn't lift the head and activate the abs, it's too gentle. The tongue very much seems to lift itself onto the roof of the mouth and do its own thing as long as the jaws are properly shut. Have your teeth become sore yet? Mine are developing that brace-like soreness that I've come to know as a sign of expansion.
Posted by: @alphaminus
Another completely useless, out of context quote from a Mew being bandied about as possible holy grail information. [...] And yet quotes like this invariably turn into a discussion between adults about what they should be doing with their teeth.
I think you are being overly theathrical with your interpretation of the thread. Considering how ambiguous Mike has been about tooth contact, this is a valid and important subject of discussion. As for the context of the cap, John's statement seems very general and not specifically aimed at any particular (age) group. He is simply defining the basic mechanics behind craniofacial development. Precisely who these mechanics work on is beyond his or anyone's knowledge.
 
Posted by: @alphaminus

As if the maxilla in an adult who doesn't touch their teeth together is in danger of "dropping." 

This indeed appears to be the case though. Be it primarily due to slacking tongue or mandible, age-correlated increase in gonial angle, mandibular narrowing and decrease in ramus height -- all alleged symptoms of facial downswing -- are recognized phenomena:

"Gonial angle increased with age and bigonial width decreased with age. Ramus height fluctuated between the ages of 18 and 40, showing a steady decline into the 5th and 6th decades [...] There was a steady decrease later in life in ramus height, with gonial angle generally increasing as the population aged."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4739368/

It's interesting that the height of the ramus was said to fluctuate up until 40s. This already suggests that at least some level of craniofacial adaption can occurr well into the middle age. 

 

 

This post was modified 4 weeks ago 2 times by Progress
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Posted : 21/09/2019 1:45 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@alphaminus you're right that it lacks context, but I'm not sure how that makes it useless? This whole field is in the hypothesis/experimentation stage of the scientific process.  In the spirit of science, no stone (hypothesis) should be left unturned.

If my language was too bold, I apologize, but at no point do I consider this information some kind of holy grail.  It's only another potential piece of the puzzle that deserves to be analyzed.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by drunkwithcoffee
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Posted : 21/09/2019 5:03 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@progress

Yeah I had tooth contact before mewing, after experimenting with mewing with and without tooth contact I decided it'd be better to just mew without since it's easier and I value mewing and tongue posture more than I do tooth contact, I figured whatever I was missing from tooth contact I could make up with chewing. For me, tooth contact doesn't make a difference in posture, mewing does, mewing makes my neck more strong and rigid.

@drunkwithcoffee

Honestly what is up with the orthotropics subreddit, it's an absolute dumpster fire.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by sinned
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Posted : 21/09/2019 5:19 pm
PaperBag
Trusted Member
Posted by: @progress

My sentiments exactly. It's fascinating how up to a certain point the firmer you clench, the better the alignment of your head & torso becomes. I have been using this as my cue, i.e. if it doesn't lift the head and activate the abs, it's too gentle. The tongue very much seems to lift itself onto the roof of the mouth and do its own thing as long as the jaws are properly shut. Have your teeth become sore yet? Mine are developing that brace-like soreness that I've come to know as a sign of expansion.

Yes, my teeth are somewhat sore, but I didn't get expansion during ortho treatment. I don't want to assume that it automatically means something positive is happening and is not just a response from accidentally clenching too hard, though that's quite unlikely.

I seem to find the best and easiest to feel sensations happen when reclined against pillows on the couch/bed vs. sitting upright or standing, and I got several suture pops while laying on my side last night. That hasn't happened since I spent 2 months thumb pulling every hour of the day, which was admittedly a giant waste of time.

Chewing gum has never done anything for me and it seems like a degree of separation from soft clenching, since the opposing teeth aren't always directly touching while chewing. I'd chew mastic gum for hours and the masseter burn completely wore off within 5 minutes, same with those chewable silicone necklace blocks that have been mentioned here in the past. Are we supposed to believe that Brad Pitt and others developed huge masseters from eating tough meat and chewing supermarket quality gum (or whatever the examples given are) while they were growing? Although it's a lot duller of a sensation, the clenching has given me a wider area of feeling around my masseters and cheeks than chewing anything ever did.

Not saying this is a panacea/holy grail, just saying the nearly 4 years of other things I've tried all had negligible/inconsistent results in terms of feeling anything at all for a sustained amount of time, without any actual changes taking place, and soft clenching at least has immediate feedback without there being much of a technique to master. For me, anyway.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by PaperBag
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Posted : 21/09/2019 11:02 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @sinned

Yeah I had tooth contact before mewing, after experimenting with mewing with and without tooth contact I decided it'd be better to just mew without since it's easier and I value mewing and tongue posture more than I do tooth contact, I figured whatever I was missing from tooth contact I could make up with chewing. For me, tooth contact doesn't make a difference in posture, mewing does, mewing makes my neck more strong and rigid.

 

Hmm... I have been honing the connection between my tongue and neck so much that I may be underestimating how great role the tongue is still playing. I certainly don't mean to imply that the jaw is taking over, it feels more like the jaw is catching up with the tongue.

I have long entertained the idea that jaw and tongue are ends to two separate postural chains. It is evident in how clenching/jutting helps the body bend forward and activating the posterior tongue helps it bend backward. From here, a logical deduction would be that oral posture that is imbalanced towards excessive jaw engagement would result in different imbalance archetype than an oral posture that is imbalanced towards excessive posterior tongue engagement. I've said this before, but it could be that over- and underbite + anterior & posterior pelvic tilt are somehow tied to this. I have had tendencies to weak jaw activation, overbite and anterior pelvic tilt. Am I right to assume that your starting situation was closer to posterior pelvic tilt?

 

Kuvahaun tulos haulle posterior pelvic tilt

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/09/2019 3:20 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@progress

Yeah I have posterior tilt, honestly I think the conventional wisdom given by therapists and the like is wrong and ignores the evidence. Imo anterior pelvic tilt is an invalid pathology, maybe I'll find and pull up the numbers, but most hernias occur posteriorly, in fact the vast majority due, there are basically none that occur anteriorly. If such a thing as anterior pelvic tilt existed there should be herniations occuring aneteriorly, this isn't the case. In addition, there is a correlation between people with lower back pain and atrophied lower back muscles. I'm of the opinion that what people think of as "anterior pelvic tilt" is actually a properly tilted pelvis, just a lack of extension which leads to a hyper lordosis of the mid back. People also tend to mistake posterior tilt as anterior pelvic tilt, in reality their pelvis is tilted posteriorly with their upper/mid back swaying/leaning back. this is again a hyper lordosis of the mid back, not the lower back. 

The posture I'm currently getting a habit into is one where the I'm getting the pelvis/butt back and up, while also mewing. I notice getting my butt back and up unslumps my shoulders naturally, this is due to the fact that posteriorly tilting the pelvis shifts the center of gravity forward, bringing the shoulders and neck with it. Tilting the pelvis back and up brings the shoulders back as well out of a slumped position. I don't touch the teeth or chin tuck anymore, not to say other people shouldn't just that I feel this is the posture I feel best in and not straining myself. I prefer to just do multiple swallows where I bring suck the saliva back with my tongue and then swallow, doing this multiple times gets the saliva off the roof my mouth and gives me a strong suction, but also upwards force from the posterior third without needing a chin tuck. In my experience to get expansion you need a proper swallow/suction hold, you need to properly swallow and then hold the tongue position of that swallow. 

 

 

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 2 times by sinned
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Posted : 22/09/2019 4:35 am
Progress
Member Moderator

Well APT is overactive back with underactive abs/butt, whereas PPT is overactive abs/butt with underactive back (a crude generalization, I know - other muscles are involved too). It's true that PPT increases the risk of spinal injury and that ATP is practically spine-protective, but anatomically they are equally real imbalances. The reason PPT is particularly harmful is because it negates the natural S-curve of the spine. APT on the other hand only exaggerates this curvature, which makes it seemingly benign.

I get it that coming from a background of PPT it can look like APT doesn't even exist. You can try this for yourself: with abs/butt properly contracted, there is a clear limit to how much the pelvis can be tilted anteriorly. Yet when you relax abs/butt, you are able to rotate the pelvis even further by pulling the hips backward with the lower back. This is when you enter the hyperlordosis aspect of APT. You can confirm in front of a full body mirror that excessive anterior rotation really does take place. This is the situation from which I began mewing.

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Posted : 22/09/2019 6:19 am
RamonT
Eminent Member

From my own experience, I believe the hollow position/ PPTP is the best posture to maintain, at the begging is even good to exaggerate it to get one's body used to it, eventually, it will feel like a NSP. I used to be a gymnast and learnt it from my coaches way back in the 80s, I actually sleep,walk,run and maintain the hollow position/NSP 24/7. It keeps your core activated/relaxed at the same time.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 3 times by RamonT
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Posted : 22/09/2019 11:21 am
Silver
Eminent Member

Doesn't Esther Gokhale say that correct posture is an anteverted pelvis?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/09/2019 1:27 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @qwerty135
Posted by: @alphaminus

Another completely useless, out of context quote from a Mew being bandied about as possible holy grail information. It's unfortunate. I mean what is Mew talking about here? Maxillary upswing in developing children who touch their teeth lightly? He couldn't possibly be talking about maxillary upswing in fully developed adults, since that has never been recorded or documented with any credibility (outside of surgery of course). Most likely he's talking about the oral habits of children in the critical skull development phase between 7 and 12. And yet quotes like this invariably turn into a discussion between adults about what they should be doing with their teeth. As if the maxilla in an adult who doesn't touch their teeth together is in danger of "dropping." 

I really wish clear distinctions were made in discussions about maxillary development. Are people talking about the changes a kid can make in their skull development, or are they actually talking as if things like maxilla size and placement can be changed in adults?

He was commenting regarding Astrosky’s mewing video and his progress from age 16-22. So at the very least his advice was intended for young adults, which he has said can still experience changes in craniofacial form(albeit lesser in extent). Below is a photo of one of his cases, a 19 year old woman

It’s my opinion that if we assume the craniofacial complex is static rather than dynamic, then a lot of the goals of this forum disappear...we are here trying to figure out if change is possible, and if so how much and how to achieve it. That being said, I think it’s very relevant to look at different aspects which factor into the growth in children, at least to verify whether or not they lose their relevance in adults. The end result may be that teeth together is not very important in adults, or even detrimental through some signaling pathway of the cranium! I just think it’s an important factor to analyze, at least as a starting point.

I assume the blue outline in the pic shows upward movement. It also shows the Mew line actually INCREASE. Could this mean that an upward movement = longer Mew line despite the fact the facial height seems to decrease???

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Posted : 22/09/2019 11:12 pm
20_year_old_mewing
Active Member

@progress

Hey dude. Was looking at your progress pics, and changes look good. 

I was wondering if you think the maxilla and/or undereye area has improved? From what I hear, a strong tongue and hard swallow are the most important things. 

Also, has the maxilla expanded with the arch. I'm currently using thumb pulling to very slowly expand, and just using the tongue to maintain it....

My maxilla and eye area are really messed up, i get told by everyone to sleep more.  I just want to do this correctly. . 

do u believe the palatogossus theory?

thanks

This post was modified 7 days ago by 20_year_old_mewing
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Posted : 09/10/2019 6:17 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @20_year_old_mewing

@progress

Hey dude. Was looking at your progress pics, and changes look good. 

I was wondering if you think the maxilla and/or undereye area has improved? From what I hear, a strong tongue and hard swallow are the most important things. 

Also, has the maxilla expanded with the arch. I'm currently using thumb pulling to very slowly expand, and just using the tongue to maintain it....

My maxilla and eye area are really messed up, i get told by everyone to sleep more.  I just want to do this correctly. . 

do u believe the palatogossus theory?

thanks

In my case orbital and cheek areas are the ones that have improved the most from tongue posture, while the lower third has improved only marginally. There's a particular subtle appearance of fullness to the middle face that, while hard to capture on camera, is easy to recognize when tilting the head up in front of a mirror. I'll pm you to show what I mean.

From what I have understood, the palatoglossus theory asserts that by using the palatoglossus to pull the posterior tongue up, the maxilla gets pulled down. What isn't addressed by the theory is how the medial pterygoids of the mandible play into the equation, as these too have insertions on the maxilla. So you have the tongue and the mandible, both of which are connected to the maxilla through separate insertions, then the mandible is also connected to the sphenoid via the medial&lateral pterygoids (see pic below) and to the zygomatic bones via the masseters. The zygomatic and sphenoid bones are both neighboring bones to the maxilla.

The question is: when all of the forementioned muscles are activated together (i.e. teeth together and tongue on the palate), what is the nature of the resulting force? While both the sphenoid and the maxilla are going to be impacted, how do the individual movements of these bones interact with each other? And how does the rest of the skull respond? So, to answer your question: the palatoglossus theory, though not necessarily wrong, may be too narrow to accurately describe the grand mechanism behind the resulting movement.

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Posted : 09/10/2019 7:20 am
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

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